The Sabbath real and ‘ritual’,
or mental mirage?
From a ‘Bible Discussions’ thread,
‘God hates a physical Sabbath’
Follows on ‘Sunday Worship Services
Trademark’
Eleven:
Can you or GE show me anywhere in this scripture where God
uses the phrase “of the week”??
God said we are to rest on the 7th day. THAT'S ALL!!!!!!!!! STOP!
Nothing more!
He does not use the phrase “7th day of the week.” .....
Is it Saturday, or is it Sunday. Actually it's neither!
GE:
I don’t stuff
anyone’s ears with cotton plugs; I pour molten lead into those vacuous skulls
through them.
“On
the Sabbath Day the day proper which mid-afternoon is before the First Day of
the week .....”, Mt28:1.
Until
anyone can show me Scripture that says, starting you will work 6 days and then
honour ANY DAY YOU LIKE OR MAKE THE LAW YOURSELF: ‘Always on Sundays IN
DEFIANCE OF THE SEVENTH DAY SABBATH OF THE LORD (your) GOD’, I will stick with
what the WHOLE BIBLE, including Paul and the Gospels, taught. And shall keep on
daring Eleven to quote Paul for saying anything against the rest of the whole
Bible.
And I shall stick to it for as long as you will stick to your error and
unscriptural prattle and spiritual ritualism of keeping God’s Sabbath in your
mind where it never manifests but in error regularly every Sunday of the week.
Then show Paul as making clear, Eleven, we revert back to Judaism when we keep
the (only, Seventh Day) Sabbath, and I’ll show you who “reverted to your
former beggarly first-principle-no-gods-of-the-world, observing days”,
Sundays, every week! – Galatians 4:10.
The sabbath isn't about ritual – Eleven claims –, but he every Sunday meets in
congregation with God’s People? And does so because he – despite his
protestations to the contrary – claims Sundays’ worshipping “is about what God created for us -
salvation, thru the blood of Jesus”. But it’s not ‘ritual’? ‘Not ritual’ while he very well realises
‘ritual’ is the exact reason why the
Scriptures say that “Jesus had given them rest .... so that therefore there
remains valid for them their keeping THE SABBATH DAY”?
As long as ‘ritual’ is on Sundays, it’s
true spiritual worship! When “Sabbaths
.... The Seventh Day”, it’s legalistic, ritualistic religiosity.
Eleven:
Actually GE, there is no problem
with the saturday sabbath.
If that is the day you observe sabbath, how wonderful for you.
There are those who observe sabbath on other days.
The problem arises when you get on here and claim, unless it's done YOUR way,
everyone else is going to hell, or will in some way have to face the wrath of
God. That is not true!
I would love to see you answer a few questions without getting irrate all the
time.
1) Do you observe saturday sabbath as it is practiced in Judaism?
Yes or no.
2) Are you saying that we must rest on saturday because God rested on saturday?
3) By the way, you broke all ten commandments yesterday, are you aware of that?
GE:
I gladly oblige, dear Eleven.
1) Do you observe saturday sabbath as it
is practiced in Judaism?
Definitely no!
2) Are you saying that we must rest on
saturday because God rested on saturday?
No!
3) By the way, you broke all ten
commandments yesterday, are you aware of that?
Not only yesterday but every moment of my existence, yes, dear Eleven.
You see, you just CANNOT understand, I in my 'belief-life' do not know a
'Saturday'; nor can you understand man's 'observance' or 'observing' or
'observation' (such as Sundays) is a different thing altogether than God's
Sabbath Day.
YES, “Sabbaths .... The Seventh Day” is Law, is ritual and is ceremony,
and that is WHY, we, CHRISTIANS, are ‘still
to honor the sabbath and keep it holy’ – exactly what Hebrews 4:9 says:
EVERY WEEK, QUOTE: “A KEEPING (‘ritual’)
OF THE SABBATH DAY” : “sabbati-smos — sabbat-I-S-M — a keeping —
‘ritual’ remains valid for the
People of God for their keeping / observance / ‘ritual’ / ceremony / festivity”.
AND WHY, “not out of obligation”?—
THE FREE, JOYFUL OBLIGATION OF BEING CHRISTIAN BELIEVERS coming together in the
Name of the Lord Jesus Christ, “of sheer
love for the Lord”? Alleluia! — Just like it was the case in Colossians 2,
where Paul consoled, comforted, encouraged and ‘commanded’ the Christian “Body of Christ’s Own”, “Do not
you let yourselves be condemned by anyone (of the adverse pagan WORLD) with
regard to .... SABBATHS’ FEAST”.
No!
because it’s “the Seventh Day of the week”,
says Eleven!
Someone said, well that's the way Jesus did it; He went to Church on Sabbaths.
And I say I too believe it, whereas you, Eleven, openly deny your own
acknowledgement and think we (or only I – all the same) are too stupid to notice
your unabashed contradicting of yourself.
And yeah, the FACT Jesus was accused of breaking the sabbath “the way man defined it back then”,
CONFIRMS Christ was keeping the Sabbath Day the way God always intended it to
be kept, to the SABBATH’S PROPHETIC MEANING ABOUT JESUS CHRIST— exactly the way
there is no reference to the Sabbath in the New Testament where Christ Jesus
stands not central. Look them up in the concordance.
The Sabbath concerned Christ in the New Testament, not the Jews who IN VAIN are
still waiting for the Messiah, which certainly is why THEIR Sabbath-keeping is
WORTH NOTHING, because it is without Christ and actually therefore, to them
promises a certain damnation.
Jesus had to weep when He attended the assemblies of those who through unbelief
in HIM, trespassed the Sabbath of the LORD. By UNBELIEF is the Sabbath of the
LORD God trespassed and trampled underfoot and dishonoured, forgotten and despised.
The
Sabbath is not disgraced though by the fact the worshippers on it are sinners
and always will fall short in faith. It is because they are sinners, sinners
whose sins are forgiven, that the People of God, the Body of Christ’s Own,
worship on God’s Sabbath— because they are CHRISTIANS! The only Sabbath the Bible’s Seventh Day,
tells us of God’s grace and His forgiveness of our sins and weaknesses. The “ism” is still on the Sabbath, yes, but God
put it there through the authors of the New Testament, specifically in Hebrews
4:9, “sabbatiSMOS apoleipetai” – “a Sabbatism / KEEPING / RITUAL of the
Sabbath Day is still valid”. Or, in
other words of the same writer, “Do not neglect your assemblies (‘rituals’)
as some have the habit to do.”
And do
not forget the Gospels were written after the rest of the New Testament; the
Church through them emphasised the ‘ritualistic’
character of the Sabbath the ‘Jesus-way’, very much. “According to his
custom (‘ritual’) He went to Church
on the Sabbath Day.”
But the
opponents of the Lord’s Sabbath Day are of the opinion the Sabbath is for
sinless people only; no one is able not to transgress against the Sabbath Law,
so you are a hypocrite and legalist if you still observed it. But if it’s Sunday you observe, then of
course it’s another story. If it’s the ‘spiritual sabbath’ of Sunday or of no
sabbath you observe, you obey the Law of Love. It’s either or: Keep the Sabbath and you
cannot keep the Law of Love; keep the Law of Love and you cannot keep the
Sabbath. But you can and you do, if it’s Sunday or your spiritual Sabbath in
your heart that you keep.
Only God
must yet to be taught these wonderful moral lessons in Christian behaviour and
freedom. Or if your God doesn’t comply
with these Christian characteristics you worship the wrong God.
So just
about everybody – his protesting regardless – has put his own ‘ism’ and
‘schism’ on Sunday: I quote for you,
Justin Martyr, according to NKJV: “After the Sabbath on the First Day / Sunday”:—
Analysed: ‘Sunday-ISM’; or, in Paul’s terminology, “vainglorious veneration
of days”, ‘paratehreoh’ (Galatians 4:10).
‘Because, see Lord (–Galatians 5–) we have baptised ourselves in Your
Name, so we are sealed in redemption our arrogant “superstitious worshipping”
of the deities of our former beggarly condition and all. We have only added You
to our list of deities. The only difference, Lord, between your ‘Sabbath’ and
our Sunday is, you commanded yours and we have assumed ours ourselves – because
we’re free from the Law.
MarcusEnoch
Try
reading Acts chapter 15. You'll find no mention of the observance of the
sabbath in the guidelines for new gentile believers.
If you are a jew, observe and celebrate. If you are a gentile, you may enjoy
the benefits of the sabbath, but you are not bound to it. Jesus fulfilled the
law, He Himself stated that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the
sabbath.
Our salvation is not dependent upon our observance of the sabbath. I don't know
about you, but I am saved by grace, through my faith in Jesus Christ to perform
what He has promised. Eph. 1:13,14 and 2:8,9
Acts 15:1-2 Message1-2 It wasn't long before some Jews showed up from
10-11”So
why are you now trying to out-god God, loading these new believers down with
rules that crushed our ancestors and crushed us, too? Don't we believe that we
are saved because the Master Jesus amazingly and out of sheer generosity moved
to save us
just as he did those from beyond our nation? So what are we arguing about?”
24-27We heard that some men from our church went to you and said things
that confused and upset you. Mind you, they had no authority from us; we didn't
send them. We have agreed unanimously to pick representatives and send them to
you with our good friends Barnabas and Paul. We picked men we knew you could
trust, Judas and Silas—they've looked death in the face time and again for the
sake of our Master Jesus Christ. We've sent them to confirm in a face-to-face
meeting with you what we've written. 28-29It seemed to the Holy Spirit and
to us that you should not be saddled with any crushing burden, but be
responsible only for these bare necessities: Be careful not to get involved in
activities connected with idols; avoid serving food offensive to Jewish
Christians (blood, for instance); and guard the morality of sex and marriage.
These guidelines are sufficient to keep relations congenial between us.
GE:
Nobby said
this is so easy to read. Yes, easy does it read, How true to the real text, of
course will be another question.
However, I do not see in even this 'translation', the Sabbath is incriminated.
To the contrary, the SAME presupposition of the Sabbath's weekly observance by
Christians in their Congregations for the furtherance of the Gospel through the
reading of the only Scriptures at that stage in the history of the Church —
‘Moses’, or, ‘The Law’, or, ‘The Scriptures’ — underlies the thrust of this
chapter's reading – even through this version of it. But of course, verse 21-22,
“Because Moses of old time has in every city them that preach Moses,
(the Law or Scriptures) being read in the churches every Sabbath Day”, have
been omitted by Marcus Enoch, quite obviously, quite deliberately, for quite
obvious reason, to make the text read quite easily for his hidden agenda
against the Sabbath Day of God.
God does not hate 'a physical Sabbath Day';
God hates hypocrisy and pretending.
I do not
post here or anywhere with the aim to convince, what convert, anybody to my
views. I am posting here as anywhere else to maintain honest dealing with
Scriptures as God's written Word to his Church. The 'Sabbath / Sunday issue'
SERVES this purpose, only; it is not the subject or object of importance in the
first place. Not, as far as I am concerned, although the Sabbath receives the
centre-position in this issue from the nature of it being
1) “The
Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD God” of the Christian, and
2) of it
being so attacked, assailed, and disdained by the Church of the LORD of the
Sabbath Day, the Christian Body of saints.
Verse 23, “And they wrote letters by them after this manner ....” no
doubt to be read in the churches before the Assemblies where every Sabbath Day
of the week the Law “of old time”, was preached by “them” of those
Churches, as follows: “The apostles and elders and brethren (in
Jerusalem), send greetings unto the BRETHREN (not hostile Judaists) which
are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia”— in those churches
where every Sabbath the Law or Scriptures or ‘Moses’, was read and “preached”,
that is, “proclaimed”. These “churches” were the “In-the-Coming-Together”
– ‘synagohgais’ of the Christians in those very places where the cause for the
Jerusalem council – Acts 15 – first cropped up (that one must be circumcised in
the flesh in order to be saved), 15:1. The Sabbath for no moment was the
issue! In fact, that the issue cropped
up means the Sabbath was everywhere kept by everybody the same without issue.
“In
“Listra and Derbe”, where “Barnabas and Paul”, in perfect Jewish
fashion “rent their clothes” to warn the people against transgression of
‘MOSES’, First, Second and Third Commandments; in perfect CHRISTIAN fashion
warned the people by quoting directly from MOSES’ FOURTH Commandment against
SABBATH transgression! Verses 6 to 18. (The awesome ‘scope’ of the Sabbath
Commandment!)
Churches like in “Pamphylia in Pisidia”, where Paul on the Great Day of
Atonement preached his great Pentecostal Sermon and the SABBATH witnessed the
Judaistic Jews leave the Christian Assemblies of Spiritual Israel for good.
Acts 13.
Churches even as near to
These and the like were the ‘Synagogues’ the Decisions of the Council
were sent to, to be read every Sabbath where Moses was preached every Sabbath!
But the Sabbath played no role; can be cleanly left out from one’s use of Acts 15
and the resolutions of the first Christian Council of Churches in order to prop
up one’s Sunday house of cards.....
Eleven:
Actually GE, there is no problem
with the saturday sabbath.
If that is the day you observe sabbath, how wonderful for you.
There are those who observe sabbath on other days.
The problem arises when you get on here and claim, unless it's done YOUR way,
everyone else is going to hell, or will in some way have to face the wrath of
God. That is not true!
GE:
There is ‘no problem with the saturday
sabbath’, for you, Eleven. And it matters not that it might be or might not
be a problem for me, GE. And I think God does not care either.
So, fortunately that is not the day I observe sabbath, although on the calendar
the Sabbath Day of God coincides with it, or it, coincides with the day that in
calendar time cannot be mistaken by anybody conscious of the created reality of
and in space and time and through God's own revelation to the writers of Holy
Writ made known to all mankind through the Son of God Jesus Christ, as the
Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD Almighty and Eternal.
There are those who observe sabbath on other days to the customs of heathendom
and old pagan idolatry.
The problem arises when you get on here and claim, unless it's done 'MY way'
which is no way at all, everyone else is going to heaven in any case, whether
they will in some way have to face the wrath of God or not.
So where
you got your categorical conclusion, “That
is not true!”, from, only you will know, dear Eleven.
Eleven:
Do
you observe saturday sabbath as it is practiced in Judaism?
GE:
Definitely no!
Why do you ask me this again?
Eleven:
Fine. Me neither. Then why do you
keep saying, Christians are called to revert back to Judiasm? I don't
understand that.
2) Are you saying that we must
rest on saturday because God rested on saturday?
GE:
I did
not say “Christians are called to revert
back to Judiasm”, unnecessary to say. But you saying I did shows you do not
or seem not to be able to distinguish, three kinds of Sabbaths – no, four – in
the Scriptures:
1) The Old Testament Sabbath: “Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD your God”,
but, Old Testament nevertheless.
2) The New Testament Sabbath this very same Seventh and Sabbath Day: “God
thus concerning spake: And God indeed the Seventh Day FINISHED / RESTED from
ALL HIS WORKS .... in these last days .... through the Son”, in having
raised Him from the dead “In the Sabbath's fullness of day mid-afternoon
towards the First Day of the week.”
3) The Seventh Day Sabbath Day of men's works the Law being their
disciplinarian even by Christians so kept.
4) The 'Jewish Sabbath' of Judaism
like the Saducees and Pharisees used to zealously 'keep'.
No, it
is not “according to this thread”, it
is according to Eleven, “sabbath must be
on saturday”. “According to the Scriptures”, “Sabbath of the LORD
your God”, is, quote: “Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD your God”.
Only question remaining is, is it YOUR Lord and God? because God has never
changed and hence his Sabbath has never changed from the Seventh Day of GOD'S
OWN CREATING to any other day of the seven days of His creating at first in the
beginning of our world -- which by token of precisely the Seventh Day Sabbath
of the LORD your God is HIS world, HIS time, and HIS days AND Sabbath Day :
which very Ownership and Lordship through Victory over death and evil and sin
obtained through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, God by token
of precisely the Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD your God has shown is HIS
world, HIS time, and HIS days AND Sabbath Day. Is THIS LORD AND GOD, YOUR, LORD
AND GOD? is the only remaining question!
Eleven:
Then explain it because you seem
to be contradicting yourself.
GE:
Ja, it
may sound contradictory to people who are so accustomed to speak of the Seventh
Day according to the Scriptures as ‘Saturday’ according to the first principle
no-gods of the world and pagan idolatry. See, the world and its wisdom and
authorities have made of every day of God's creating, one of its deities “superstitiously
observed” --- have named them after its own lords of the sky and heavens,
Sunday at the same time being the male beggarly 'lord' of the 'lord Sun's day'
and female beggarly “queen of days” so “superstitiously worshipped”.
('Paratehreoh' in Gl4:10 has the meaning of “superstitiously to WORSHIP BY
OBSERVING / DIVINING days, months, seasons, years” : exactly and literally
as going on this very day in all the world by all Christianity as much as by
whichever still pagan peoples, like in Peru and Finland, England and China :
universally in fact, ALSO AND ESPECIALLY by Sunday observance.)
Lightbearer:
HI Eleven, Why is desiring to
follow Christ considered judaism? He is our example.
Eleven:
Because you either follow Christ
or you follow law. You can't follow both.
According to Judaic law, you must observe the sabbath on saturday and only
saturday.
The question is, is that what God commanded?
Celebrate the sabbath on saturday or I will get angry, saith the Lord?
Absolutely not because it's not about OUR day of the week, it's about keeping
GOD's 7th day holy.
Here's a clue. God's 7th day is not the same as our 7th day. And I can prove
it.
I'm just waiting to give GE a chance to respond.
So why is it that the sabbath
must be saturday?
LB:
Jesus said in Matt.5:17 think not
that I came To destroy the law or the prophets:I am not cameto destoy but
fufil.For verly I say unto you till heaven and earth passthat did not
happen yetnot one jot or one tittle shall no wise pass from the law till all
be fullfilled and Matt24:20But pray ye that your flight be not in the
winter,neither on the sabbath daythat would be a silly warning if it did'nt
matter which day
Through the gift of God it is
possible to have the law kept perfectly through us by God, this is the gosple
fulfilled inus through faith,
GE:
So, if you’re not “observing the law”, you’re following
Christ? This, “it is possible to have the law kept perfectly”, to me, smacks of
old fashioned legalism; no thanks. I speak from experience; no thanks!
LB:
To love God with all our
heart,mind,and soul and love thy neighbor as ourselves hang all the law and
prophets.The law and prophets the bible the written word in Jesus's time and
who was Christ?The Word manifested in the flesh.You can't seperate the two they
are one and the sameAnd who are we? We are dead never the less we live but not
us but Christ.The gosple fulfilled the new covenant.Hebrews8:10,10:16 The law
put into our minds and hearts and written in our hearts and minds.Through the
life,death,and resurrection of our Lord and savior He has made us like He is.The
Word manifested in the flesh.The law;love
Eleven:
Amen lighbearer, you got it
together!
But here's where GE and I have hit a snag.
He claims that obsevance of the sabbath (God's law) which we have written in
our minds and hearts, is only acceptable to God if it is observed on Saturday.
My contention is that YES we are to observe the sabbath, but it is NOT
restricted to saturday alone.
What say you?
LB:
I say amen to your amennot
all recieve this and many will be surprised and ashamed on the great and
glorious day when all that is in this world and of this world will be destroyed
at his coming.
But as far as saturday and the sabbath.I had shared a little of what God says
in my previous post.Let me know what you see there.
GE:
This is
the heart of the 'problem'. I do not believe, you believe “to keep the law perfectly” would mean that Jesus no longer would be
necessary so that we are saved. On the contrary, you have yourself how many
times more or less indicated we are saved by grace; not by keeping the Law
perfectly. Neither does imperfect keeping of the Law help that we might be
saved without Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ
is ALL and EVERYTHING of our salvation; I firmly believe that is what Eleven
believes. SABBATH KEEPING IS NEVER TO SAVE US.
If we are saved by grace shall we sin, is what Paul asked too; and negated.
But we do not even ask such questions with regard to our enjoyment of the
Lord's Day (Seventh Day Sabbath, immer); because we, as New Testament
believers, believe all the Gospel which is Christ; so we keep the Sabbath of
His Salvation, the Seventh Day of God's first and last mercies “to us-ward”
by and in and through Jesus Christ.
Eleven:
Can you please tell me what
keeping God's law has to do with Saturday???
Nobby:
The work week in the
So what are people supposed to do? Not work???
GE:
Show me
where I once referred to work – man's works – in my discussions of the Sabbath.
It is ALWAYS YOU people who bring MAN'S works up. Show me where I once required
the LAW to establish the Sabbath on -- it is every time YOU people who are so
dependent on THE LAW THE LAW as dry as the gravel of the hills of Gilboa as Mrs
E.G. White has said; and tell a SDA it and he howls at you.
But let me explain to ALL of YOU YOUR LEGALISM --- the ACME of your legalism
and the sheer purity of it wherein God's Grace and the Gospel is as little
mixed as water with those gravel pebbles of Gilboa: Your very replacement of
obedience to the Commandment of God through Jesus Christ in resurrection from
the dead “On the Sabbath Day”, with YOUR 'LOVE'-BOASTING. This hackneyed
'love'-oozing you offer God as THE BEST OF THE PERFECT FULFILMENT OF GOD'S
COMMANDMENTS on which no one not even Jesus Christ could improve : ONLY NEVER,
REAL OBEDIENCE TO OR FAITH IN WHAT --- WHAT --- God actually SAYS with and
through his WORDS AND DEEDS in and through Jesus Christ.
That is legalism: YOUR WORKS : your 'LOVE' : BOASTED in the place of the simple
sinner's believing and following OF GOD'S WORKS!
For you, the Sabbath is a matter of individualism and self-commendation! Is not LOVE the fulfilling of God’s Law? No 'Seventh Day' 'legalism'! How do you think
everybody in
I have
said this thousands of times; I say it again, here, and now.
TWO things the Sabbath : Seventh Day of the week : The Lord's Day, IS BASED ON:
1) The resurrection of Jesus Christ
from the dead “In Sabbath's-time
fullness of day, mid-afternoon towards the First Day of the week”,
Mt28:1 (which can be said of a 'literal day' only and only of the ‘literal’
Seventh Day of the real days of our lives according to the Life and Works and
Word of God);
2) “If Jesus had given them rest and God shall not afterwards speak of another
day of salvation, there therefore remains still valid for the PEOPLE of God, their keeping of THE
SABBATH DAY, GOD HAVING ENTERED into His own rest as God in His Own”, Hb4:8-10
(which again, can be said of a 'literal day' only and only of the Seventh Day
of the real days of our lives according to the Life and Works and Word of God).
1: Jesus Christ by resurrection from
the dead having given the People
rest, that is, salvation, once for all “ON THE SABBATH DAY”, to “FINISH ALL THE
WORKS OF GOD” once for all, THROUGH GRACE, “On the Seventh Day GOD, rested”;
2: Jesus Christ by resurrection from the dead having given the SABBATH “For the
PEOPLE of God” – not for every one
on his own and according to everyone's own liking and self-esteem and least of
all to ANYONE ACCORDING TO HIS OBEDIENCE TO THE LAW ON HIS OWN.
The
crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ has nothing to do with the day of
the week, as far as timing is
concerned, not until it has
everything to do with the timing of the Passover,
and the temple sacrifice of the Lamb. If
Jesus had been crucified or rose from the dead at any other times than He did,
he could not be our Saviour, not because time determines God, but because God
determined the times so. In Jesus’
case, the passover-timing was perfectly determined – to the second— in order to
once for all “perfect all the works of God .... on the Seventh Day”.
RND:
While I agree that worshipping God
everyday by our daily actions and prayers is a minimum requirement of our
Christian walk, there has never been a change to the Sabbath, ever. When you
worship on Sunday, you are following the traditions of man, not God.
GE:
Now I agree with RND, but not in everything. I agree with him “that worshipping God everyday by our daily
actions and prayers is a minimum requirement of our Christian walk”.
I also agree with RND, “When you worship
on Sunday, you are following the traditions of man, not God.” That’s for
sure. The Bible has much to say about Sunday-worship in both Old and New
Testaments, that it used to be and still is one of the major sins of both
mankind generally and the People of God in particular. So much so that Paul
declared, Christ has become of no effect for you; you are cut off from Christ
if you tenaciously maintain you are a Christian (chapter five), yet “return
to your former” “superstitious worship by divining days”, such as
Sunday the chief of such “beggarly first principle no-gods” “of the
world” and its “wisdom” and “dominions”, Galatians 4.
Paul does not speak of the Sabbath in Galatians 4 verse 10; he condemns in no uncertain terms the "first principles" or "no-gods" of the Galatians' former idolatry: their "superstitious veneration / worship / observation ('observance' by "observation" - 'paratehreoh') of: "days, months, seasons and years". Just by its name of 'SUN-day' it tells you Sunday was the "queen of (these pagan) days", so worshipped : indeed so, prayed to.
I also
agree with RND, “there has never been a
change to the Sabbath, ever”, but “the
Sabbath” meaning ‘the Sabbath DAY’. The Sabbath DAY was never changed, “ever”.
No earthling is able to get away from the present-day
fact in creaturely space and time of ‘the Seventh Day of the week’ a cognitive
reality through nothing than the Holy Scriptures of Christianity and the Jews.
And no Christian, is able to get away from or to just ignore the present-day fact of the original
creaturely space and time of the Seventh Day of the week, redeemed and
re-created, confirmed and re-established —‘eternalised’—, a cognitive reality
through and in and by Jesus Christ
according to ALL the Holy Scriptures of Christianity and the Jews IN THAT
CHRIST ROSE from the dead to “FULFIL the Scriptures” that “God the
Seventh Day RESTED from ALL, HIS, works which He had made.”
“The Seventh Day” has never been ‘changed’, ‘transferred’, or, ‘abolished’ or
‘spiritualised away’— never!
But the ‘Sabbath’ of and on this the only ever ‘Seventh DAY’, WAS ‘changed’,
WAS ‘transferred’, was even ‘abolished’, and for sooth WAS ‘re-instituted’ by
no one less than God Himself. Several times throughout history.
1) The first Sabbath of the Seventh
Day in itself was a changed ‘day’ in
that God created the seventh of his first created days, “The Seventh Day”,
having through “the Son of Man the Lord of the Sabbath Day”, “MADE”
“The Seventh Day” – THEN “in the beginning” – THE day of GOD’S “finishing”
and of GOD’S “blessing”, the DAY, which GOD “hallowed”, and on
IT, “rested”: “GOD the Seventh Day rested”, thus changing The
Seventh Day, into God’s own Sabbath Day. So did ‘the Sabbath’ come into existence—
became it the cognitive reality of the Sabbath of God’s original and first creating, the cognitive reality of our
human world and environment of consciousness and knowledge: The Seventh
Day-Sabbath: “MADE KNOWN” to mankind by God, BY NO LAW but God’s
sovereign ACT of love: “GOD, rested”—
for this world of His creating which everything we know about, we know about
through the Scriptures of Old and New Testaments, thanks to God’s RECREATION
and REDEMPTION of it through Jesus Christ.
2) This ‘Sabbath’ of and on “The
Seventh Day”, GOD, changed, when He “MADE
KNOWN to you (his) Sabbath” in and by the LAW pronounced through the dispensations of God at Sinai, in which
God made the CREATION the
everlasting basis of the Sabbath's observance by man of all time. Exodus 20.
3) This ‘Sabbath’ of and on the Seventh
Day GOD, changed, when He changed
its Law, and removed the creation from it, and replaced it with the REDEMPTION of Israel from Egypt for the
everlasting basis of the Sabbath’s observance by all man of all time.
Deuteronomy 5.
4) This ‘Sabbath’ of and on the
Seventh Day GOD finally changed,
yea, completely abolished, when He removed all previous Law and Redemption from
under it, and replaced it all with Jesus Christ Word of God the “NEW LAW I GIVE YOU”. “With regard to” “the Seventh Day
Sabbath of the LORD your God”, God gave us his New Law, Christ, for
eternity after. God accomplished feat
and finished all his works “when He raised Christ from the dead” “according to the Scriptures”,
“on the Sabbath Day”. On the
Sabbath Day, that specific ‘day’ in created and now in redeemed reality, for
ever after. So that IT, should be recognised for being
from here on, onwards, as from here on, into the furthest past, “THIS, the day the LORD has
made”; “TODAY, you
hear My Voice”. So that IT,
“The Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD your God”, should be recognised for being “Sabbath Day BEFORE the First Day
of the week” because Jesus Christ on it rose from the dead the Eternal
Basis, Content, and Essence of the only ever Bible-Sabbath “remaining valid for
the People of God to keep”.
Never
before has God “made known” the “Sabbath the Son of Man is Lord of”,
“the Lord’s Day”, so literally and unmistakably “Sabbath Day BEFORE the First Day of the week”. Never before has God “made known” “The Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD your
God” so literally and unmistakably for that cognitive reality in created space
and time of God’s works and power – our world – redeemed through Jesus Christ our Lord through the resurrection from the dead of his, for
being “Sabbath Day BEFORE the First Day of the week”.
Let no one ever, dear Eleven and Nobby, come try and tell us the Sabbath does
not exist in the real world of seven-days-a-week-hard-working-Americans or
anybody else for that matter.
“The
Seventh Day” does not exist in your wilful mind, Eleven; “The Seventh Day is
Sabbath of the LORD God” in which God revealed Himself the Saviour-Creator
of the world of reality in time and space outside
your, innermost devotional 'better'
or 'best ME'. Eleven, outside your mind, IN the resurrection of Christ from the dead; was where God “made”
the Seventh Day and Sabbath. The Sabbath
of the Seventh Day is therefore, no ethereal
mind cyberspace non-entity like the ‘Jesus’ of the Jesus Seminar. It is reality: the reality, quote: “Of the
Sabbath's fullness of daylight mid-afternoon in being towards / in being before the First Day of the week”. THIS, is
SCRIPTURE; THIS, is the, reality of “The
Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD God” and of his re-creative Omnipotence
whereby He raised Christ from the dead and established the Day of his final
Rest-Act the Sabbath of the LORD your God. To deny it is as good as to deny the
resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead in reality of glorified body of
flesh. Or, are you – now that I think of it – a New Reformationist, a ‘Jesus
Seminarian’, Eleven, and company?
Pete:
The crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus
Christ has nothing to do with the day of the week, as far as timing is
concerned. It has everything to do with the timing of the Passover, and the
temple sacrifice of the lamb. If Jesus had been crucified at any other time, he
could not be our savior. In his case, the timing was perfect - to the second.
GE:
Are you sure, Pete, “The crucifixion and
resurrection of Jesus Christ has nothing to do with the day of the week”? First
go read Mk15:42/Jn19:31,42/Lk23:54-56; Mk16:1/Jn20:1; Lk24:1/Mk16:2/;
Jn20:11f/Mk16:9/Mt28:5-8. But above all, Mt28:1-4. Then Please come back, and
let us talk further, after you have read these texts.
Remember, I do not deny “The crucifixion
and resurrection of Jesus Christ .... has everything to do with the timing of
the Passover, and the temple sacrifice of the lamb. If Jesus had been crucified
at any other time (than He was), he could not be our savior. In his case, the
timing was perfect - to the second.” I agree. I only say, THIS TIME IN
JESUS CHRIST OUR PASSOVER AND LAMB OF GOD, the timing “ON THE SABBATH”
of his resurrection, was perfect too!
Please come back, let us talk Bible (as Jannie Smuts said).
Jacob:
the bible tells you that you have
to be built upon the prophets and the apostles, ephesians 2ndchapter verses 19
and 20. You cant just take only paul's word as sure, you have to use both old
and new testiment, because the lord told you out of the mouth of two or more
witness is a fact established.
Eleven:
Jacob, I agree with you.
But can we ask ourselves, if we are supposed to be family - Jew and Gentile
alike- then why is there such a huge division?
A house divided cannot stand!
Is it Saturday, or is it Sunday. Actually it's neither!
Those and man-made laws that are dividing God's people and we are all hypocrites
if we keep on doing this.
Exodus
8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you
shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to
the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or
daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien
within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the
earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day.
Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
Can you or GE show me anywhere in this scripture where God
uses the phrase “of the week”??
God said we are to rest on the 7th day. THAT'S ALL!!!!!!!!! STOP!
Nothing more!
He does not use the phrase “7th day of the week.”
Enter the Jewish calendar. Saturday is Yom Shabbat, is it not?
So in Jewish culture, that is the day of sabbath.
But what if you are not Jewish?
What did God say?
Six days you shall do all your work, but on the 7th (meaning next consecutive
day, not day of the week) you will observe the sabbath.
So if I start work on Monday, and work 6 days, then observe sabbath the next
day, am I not in perfect keeping with what God commanded?
Yes I am! Because the Apostle Paul tells us, Gentiles are NOT under
Jewish law! I don't have to observe it the way the Jewish culture does, all
that is important is that I observe it!
Now let's take it even further than that.
Go back to the book of Genesis, and see if you can tell me what day God
actually rested? (Because it certainly wasn't any one of ours!)
Marcus:
I'm still waiting for one of you
hot dogs who think we are under the Mosaic Law and have to be circumcised,
observe the sabbath, or other such bondage to take me up on my challenge!
Show me anywhere in the scriptures where gentiles are compelled to observe
sabbath, dietary restrictions, circumcision, etc.
Rules of engagement:
Simple hermeneutics
- Who is speaking, Jew or
gentile?
- Who is he/she speaking to,
again Jew or gentile?
- How does the listener/s
understand what he/she is saying to them? What is their reaction?
Take the challenge, I double dog
dare you!
Jacob:
I will take your the challenge,
first of all gentiles have to do whatever the israelite/ or jew have to do to
please god, promises, the covenants and service of god was given to israel,
Read Romans 9th chapter and 4th verse. far as the law god gave nothing that he
took away, But animal sacrafice thats the law that was nailed to the cross not
the ten cammandmets or his statuues because according to Hebrews the 10th
chapter and the 4th verse blood of animals could not take away sin so jesus
replaced the animal with himself thats why he's called the lamb of god. but
dont take my word for truth, read what 1John said when it comes to the law, 1John
2nd chapter and 4th verse. It reads HE THAT SAITH, I KNOW HIM AND KEEPETH NOT
HIS CAMMANDMENTS, IS A LIAR, AND THE TRUTH IS NOT IN HIM. if you cant
understand that then listen to jesus. st john 14th chapter and 15th verse IF
YOU LOVE ME, KEEP MY CAMMANDMENTS also matthew the 5th chapter and 17th verse
THINK NOT THAT I AM COME TO DESTROY THE LAW, OR THE PROPHETS: I AM NOT COME TO
DESTOY, BUT TO FULFIL VERSE 18 FOR VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH
PASS, ONE JOT OR ONE TITTLE SHALL IN NO WISE PASS FROM THE LAW, TILL ALL BE
FUFILLED. LET ME NOTE HEAVEN AND EARTH IS STILL HERE TODAY. when it comes to
the sabbath day nobody in the bible argued what day the sabbath day was, all
you have to do is be able to count from 1 to 7 thats why god use numbers. paul
and the gentiles knew when the sabbath day was, read Acts the 13th chapter
verses 42 thru 44. 1 has always been 1 and 7 is still 7 and the 7th day god
blessed it and sactified it and rested. this is not a challenge but to give you
a better understanding of the scriptures, but if you dont agree then prove me
wrong THREW THE SCRIPTURES, NOT BY WORD OF MOUTH.
Pete:
It helps to know who Paul was
referring to. In Romans 9:3, Paul was was referring to his “kinsmen according
to the flesh:” (fellow Jews). He was not referring to Gentiles.
Here is what Paul has to say to converts who sought to keep the law.
Galatians 4 Verse 4:
But when the fulness of time of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made
of a woman, made under the law,
V.5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption
of sons.
V.9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather that ye are known of God,
how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again
to be in bondage?
V.10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. V.11 I am afraid of
you, lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain (1 Cor. 7:18).
V.21 Tell me, ye who desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? V.31
So then, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
Chapter 5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and not
be entangled again with the yoke of bondage. V.2 Behold, I Paul say unto you,
that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. V.3 For I testify
again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole
law. V.4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified
by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
V.14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love
thy neighbor as thyself.
Chapter 6:15; For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor
uncircumcision.
I commend you Jacob for being
bold enough to take me up on my challenge. You are the first, and most
courageous.
First let me ask you though. Are you a Jew?
The Law was given to the nation of
Romans 9:1-5 At the same time, you need to know that I carry with me at
all times a huge sorrow. It's an enormous pain deep within me, and I'm never
free of it. I'm not exaggerating—Christ and the Holy Spirit are my witnesses.
It's the Israelites...If there were any way I could be cursed by the Messiah so
they could be blessed by him, I'd do it in a minute. They're my family. I grew up
with them. They had everything going for them—family, glory, covenants,
revelation, worship, promises, to say nothing of being the race that produced
the Messiah, the Christ, who is God over everything, always. Oh, yes!
What has this to do with our challenge? I have no problem accepting that the
Jews are under commandment to keep certain parts of the law, and yet they are
not under the law's condemnation either. We gentiles are not under the law,
never have been, nor ever should be. We love G~d because He first loved us. We
serve Christ as His slaves, out of love, not out of fear of damnation.
As for the book of Hebrews, you prove my point for me. Who is the book written
to? Gentiles, no. The letter is written to the Jews.
As for 1 John 2:4-6If someone claims, “I know him
well!” but doesn't keep his commandments, he's obviously a liar. His life doesn't match his words. But the one who keeps God's
word is the person in whom we see God's mature love. This is the only way to be
sure we're in God. Anyone who claims to be intimate with God ought to live the
same kind of life Jesus lived.
But again, look at whom he is addressing this letter to, the Jews
7-8My dear friends, I'm not writing anything new here. This is the oldest commandment in the book, and you've known it
from day one. It's always been implicit in
the Message you've heard. On the other hand, perhaps it is new, freshly minted
as it is in both Christ and you—the darkness on its way out and the True Light
already blazing!
I am not saying that we do not keep the commandments, but that we do so because
we love Jesus, we love the L~rd and keep them because of that love, not because
our salvation depends upon our obedience.
Acts 13:42-43When the service was over, Paul and Barnabas were invited
back to preach again the next Sabbath. As the meeting broke
up, a good many Jews and converts to Judaism went along with Paul and Barnabas,
who urged them in long conversations to stick with what they'd started, this
living in and by God's grace.
44-45When the next Sabbath came around, practically the whole city
showed up to hear the Word of God. Some of the Jews, seeing the crowds, went
wild with jealousy and tore into Paul, contradicting everything he was saying,
making an ugly scene.
Again, he is speaking to Jews, not gentiles. I will continue to show you
through the scriptures, but never would I want to be guilty of
Quote: “threw the scriptures.”
Again, I commend you for your
effort. Good post, try again.
Marcus:
Jacob made a good effort, any of you other
alleged Bible scholars want to attempt my challenge?
Simple rules:
- Who is speaking, Jew or
gentile?
- Who is he/she speaking to,
again, Jew or gentile?
- What do the hearers
understand the speaker to be saying, what is their reaction?
example:
Acts 1510-11”So why are you now trying to out-god God, loading these new
believers down with rules that crushed our ancestors and crushed us, too? Don't
we believe that we are saved because the Master Jesus amazingly and out of
sheer generosity moved to save us just as he did those from beyond our nation?
So what are we arguing about?”
12-13There was dead silence. No one said a word. With the room quiet,
Barnabas and Paul reported matter-of-factly on the miracles and wonders God had
done among the other nations through their ministry. The silence deepened; you
could hear a pin drop.
24-27We heard that some men from our church went to you and said things
that confused and upset you. Mind you, they had no authority from us; we didn't
send them. We have agreed unanimously to pick representatives and send them to
you with our good friends Barnabas and Paul. We picked men we knew you could
trust, Judas and Silas—they've looked death in the face time and again for the
sake of our Master Jesus Christ. We've sent them to confirm in a face-to-face
meeting with you what we've written. 28-29It seemed to the Holy Spirit
and to us that you should not be saddled with any crushing burden, but be
responsible only for these bare necessities: Be careful not to get involved in
activities connected with idols; avoid serving food offensive to Jewish
Christians (blood, for instance); and guard the morality of sex and marriage.
These guidelines are sufficient to keep relations congenial between us. And God
be with you! Barnabas and Paul Go Their
Who is speaking: Paul
Who is he speaking to: The Jewish leaders of the Church
What is their reaction: Paul and Barnabus understand the Judaizers to be
requiring the gentiles to be under the law and to act as Jews. He is incensed
and protests such a burden being placed upon gentiles, especially in light of
the freedom and liberty he has preached in his message about Christ's
redemptive work for them. Their reaction is to send a letter rebuking the
Judaizers and to establish what the L~rd requires of these gentile believers. “Be
careful not to get involved in activities connected with idols; avoid serving
food offensive to Jewish Christians (blood, for instance); and guard the
morality of sex and marriage.”
We are obedient unto the commandments, but not for our salvation which is
already accomplished. Ephesians 1:13,14
Jacob:
Honestly i dont know if im from
the tribe of juda or from one of the other eleven tribes, because god pronounce
that we would, THE ISRAELITES lose sight of who we really are in Deuteronomy
the 28th chapter verses 28 thru 29. yes god did give the law to
Eleven:
In Romans 9, Paul is speaking to
the Jews up until verse 25.
Then he says:
Romans
25 Concerning the Gentiles, God says in the prophecy of Hosea,
“Those who were not my people, I will now call my people. And I will love those
whom I did not love before.”
26 And, “Then, at the place where they were told, ‘You are not my
people,’ there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’”
27 And concerning Israel, Isaiah the prophet cried out,
“Though the people of Israel are as numerous as the sand of the seashore, only
a remnant will be saved.
28 For the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth
quickly and with finality.”
29 And Isaiah said the same thing in another place:
“If the Lord of Heaven’s Armies had not spared a few of our children, we would
have been wiped out like
30 What does all this mean? Even though the
Gentiles were not trying to follow God’s standards, they were made right with
God. And it was by faith that this took place. 31 But the people of Israel, who tried so hard to get right
with God by keeping the law, never succeeded. 32 Why not? Because they were
trying to get right with God by keeping the law instead of by trusting in him. They stumbled over the great rock in their path. 33 God
warned them of this in the Scriptures when he said,
“I am placing a stone in
a rock that makes them fall. But anyone who trusts in him
will never be disgraced.”
I agree with you
Jacob, that both Jews and Gentiles are called to obey the commandments, but
they don't have anything to do with our salvation. You can follow them to the
letter, but if there is no faith in Jesus, what good will it do you?
And if you don't follow them to the letter, will you lose your salvation? No,
of course not. So what does this mean?
It means that we follow the commandments out of love for our God!
You are right, Jesus did NOT take them away.
What He did take away were all the man-made laws that people attached to the
commandments, claiming that God said so.
The Pharisees said you were not allowed to pick grain on the sabbath.
God never said that.
Rabbis today say that you can't pick up a pencil on the sabbath.
God never said that.
The Jews and some Christian churches proclaim that the sabbath MUST be observed
on saturday.
God never said that.
Some Christian churches say that if you don't attend worship services on Sunday
and other Holy days, you will burn in hell.
God never said that.
Some churches say that you MUST speak in tongues or there is no Holy Spirit
within you.
God never said that.
And there are tons of other examples that man has shackled around people in the
name of God to hold them bondage to rituals that God never commanded, or
required.
THOSE ARE THE LAWS JESUS FREED US FROM.
Quote: when it comes to the
sabbath day nobody in the bible argued what day the sabbath day was, all you have to do is be able to count from 1 to 7 thats why god use
numbers.
YES!!!! That is
correct!!!!!!!!!!!
You only have to count 1 to 7, but God never said, count 1 to 7 STARTING ON
SUNDAY! Man started that, not GOD!
Read Genesis 1!!!!!!
14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to
divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give
light upon the earth: and it was so.
16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and
the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the
earth,
18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light
from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
What I'm trying to show you is, our first day didn't even exist until God's 4th
day!
Jacob:
Look in your history books, the
internet and encyclopedia for Sunday. Sunday was changed by Emperor Constantine
I, Flavius Valerius Aurelius “ The Great” as the Christians sabbath day of rest
in 327 during his reign from 272-337. The international dictionary defines
Sunday, The FIRST day of the week, the Lord's day. The definiton of the sabbath
in the same book states, The seventh day of the week, appointed in the decalog
as a day of rest to be observed by the jews; now Saturday.
The bible states in Genesis, Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day
is a day of rest. In the beginning the Sabbath day of rest was set before there
was a man to till the grounds. Leviticus the 23rd chapter states that these are
the feast of the LORD, not the feast of the jews.
Eleven:
Excuse me, but days as we know
them were created on God's 4th day, and man was created on God's 6th day.
Because on God's 7th day, He rested from ALL the work of creation, or do you
have another theory in mind?
Jacob:
The question should not be is
saturday the seventh day, the sabbath?, The question should be what man created
on this earth has more power and authority than the Lord God, to change the
Lord's sabbath from the seventh day to the first day of the week seeing how man
had not been created yet when God spoke of the Seventh day.
Eleven:
You look in your history books.
Because what
“on God's 7th day, He rested from
ALL the work of creation, or do you have another theory in mind?”
GE:
If I may say out of my turn, or ask, What involves “ALL the work of .....”
GOD? Note that “ALL the work of creation”
is not what the New Testament has in mind where it says, “God the Seventh
Day finished ALL the works : OF GOD”. Therefore, What does the NEW
Testament mean (Hb4:4-5) when it says, “ALL the works : OF GOD”?
Correction: “God did rest the Seventh Day from ALL his works”.
Answer:
“Thou art My Son : Today have I begotten Thee”.
See Jesus Christ IN RISING FROM THE DEAD, HERE :
“Christ (5a) ..... with strong crying and tears offering ..... FROM
DEATH being heard.” Hb5:7.
That was when, and that was how, “God from all his works the Seventh Day
rested” --- in and through Jesus Christ “WHEN being made PERFECT ..... WHEN
He became Author of eternal salvation .... WHEN being called of God High Priest
after the order of (Indestructible LIFE)”.
Jesus Christ in resurrection from the dead— Christ when “Sabbath’s-Day”
from death being saved by “Him able to save Him from death” (7b) : ALL
the works of God FINISHED! “God the Seventh Day rested from ALL his works.”
It is not and it NEVER HAS BEEN “creation”
or all God's ‘works of creation’.
Eleven:
Go
back to the book of Genesis, and see if you can tell me what day God actually
rested? (Because it certainly wasn't any one of ours!)
GE:
Eleven,
don't interpret the New Testament at the hand of the Old Testament! You should interpret the Old with the New
Testament.
Did God
then create our world? Our world, but
not “any one of our (days)”? Crazy!
The
Christ is Jesus the Son of Man, come, born of a women, was crucified and died,
and come from the dead the third day of passover according to the Scriptures “In
the Sabbath DAY BEFORE THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK” “SABBATOHN EIS MIAN
(HEHMERAN) SABBATOHN”.
There you have it: from the life and death and resurrection of the Messiah God
the Son of God the Father, Creator and Saviour of creation created and ordered
to the order of the creation BY God and OF God Himself: REDEEMED— “In the
Sabbath Day in being daylight before the First Day OF THE WEEK”— the ‘weekly cycle’ established and confirmed
by Christ once for all eternity eschatologically into all past time as
eschatologically into all future time.
Eleven:
You still have yet to answer any
ONE of my questions.
Where does God say, rest on the 7th day OF THE WEEK
Where?
.... on God's 7th day, He rested from ALL the work of creation, or do you have
another theory in mind?”
The sabbath is imitating God's day of rest. But God's days are not our days and
vice versa.
Are you telling me God works on a 24 hour schedule?
GE:
In fact,
yes, dear Eleven. Now you have said it how it is. Would you say God is not
mighty to? That in Christ God did not? Did not nor could, “work on a 24 hour
schedule”, did not, nor could, make “God's days .... our days and vice versa”,
'our days', 'God's days'?
JUST AS MUCH AND JUST AS TRULY GOD IN CHRIST BECAME MAN, did God “work on a 24 hour schedule”, did He make
“God's days .... our days and vice versa”,
'our days', 'God's days'! TIME, as much and as truly is part of God having
become Man in and through Jesus Christ, as God having been conceived of the
Holy Spirit and having been born of the virgin Mary and having DIED and having
been BURIED AND HAVING BEEN RAISED FROM THE DEAD : “On the Sabbath Day THAT
IS BEFORE THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK”. Jesus Christ LIVED not in a vacuum of timelessness! He did not DIE and neither did He RISE in a world and in a life without
days and night and hours or weeks and months and seasons and years. On the
contrary, Christ “came in the fullness of time” to “fulfil” the ‘seasons
of God’. Jesus Christ The Son of Man came to this world FOR TO SAVE,
matter-and-gravity-and-time-UNIT, THIS, “WORLD”— even this world of God's, OWN,
CREATING! Sela! Maranata! “Thus far
God has led, and brought : US” .... real people not beings of outer space or
of outer grey-matter mental projections like the ‘Jesus’ the ‘Jesus Seminar’
satanic preachers teach!
God says
it in the New Testament where God tells you in the New Testament in Hb4:4-5
which I quoted LITERALLY AND CORRECT where “GOD .... through the SON ....”
through resurrection from the dead “.... in THESE last days .... SPAKE: and
God the SEVENTH DAY (OF THE WEEK : 'tehs hebdomehs') from all his works
(in and through Jesus Christ) rested.”
Or you, Eleven, are as ignorant of 'language' as a medium of communication
among intelligent beings called 'humans' as a stone.
Eleven:
A house divided cannot stand!
Is it Saturday, or is it Sunday. Actually it's neither!
GE:
This is how a house divided against itself, falls! It’s Eleven causing division
where no division can exist. It’s Eleven out of existence, creating
non-existence.
In fact, it is not “neither!” It in your case, Eleven, is, ‘Is it Saturday, or
is it Sunday. Or is it neither?” And it in the case of the issue of the Christian
Church also, it not only is a matter of “Is it Saturday, or is it Sunday?”,
because for the apostate Church of Jesus Christ, it has become the deceiving
pretence of ‘Is it Saturday, or is it Sunday?’ which in reality boils down to
the Church’s deceiving pretence that consists of three components, deception,
and Sunday-worship, against “The Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD God Almighty”.
It is deception and Sunday-worship with the help from the catalyst “Saturday-worship”,
against true “Christ’s Own Body's .... Sabbaths’ Feast .... in eating and
drinking” of Christ spiritually, physically
'Sabbath-keeping'.
Eleven:
.... am I not in perfect keeping with
what God commanded?
Yes I am! Because the Apostle Paul tells us, Gentiles are NOT under Jewish law!
GE:
Is this the zenith, or is it the nadir of audacity? Audacity against God?
First it is a boasting of being “in
perfect keeping with what God commanded” (‘sinless-ness’ or ‘perfection’).
Then for taunting God as if “what God
commanded”, was, “Six days you shall
do all your work, but on the 7th .... meaning next consecutive day, not day of
the week .... you will observe the sabbath. So .... I start work on Monday, and
work 6 days, then observe sabbath the ....” SUNDAY in DEFIANCE of what God
commanded.
And again it’s a-lying from the first word to the last, claiming, “the Apostle Paul tells us, Gentiles are NOT
under Jewish law!” Of course if set free in Christ they are not. But Paul
does not say “under Jewish law”; and
Paul never says Gentiles are not under the Law of God; and Paul never says any
man is not under the Law of sin; but on the contrary says all men are – every
man is “under the Law (–of God–) for as long as he lives”. No man is
above the Law but the Son of Man Jesus Christ WHO IS THE LAW. So every set free
in Christ Christian, is under the Law of God for as long as he is in the Law
which is for as long as he is set free in Christ – which is for eternity, once
set free in Christ.
Eleven:
Ya know, this can go back and
forth like a ping pong game until Jesus returns and nothing will be resolved. I have asked you and Jacob the same question
over and over and neither or you has even bothered to address it.
PLEASE SHOW ME IN SCRIPTURE WHERE GOD SAYS
7TH DAY OF THE WEEK Can you please show me that?
Because if I am in error, I would LOVE to be corrected ! Show me the scripture
that says sabbath has to be on Saturday and no other day.
I want to see chapter and verse.
Because if you can't show me that, maybe you will finally see that it is a MAN
MADE LAW, and NOT a law of God!
GE:
Alright, Eleven, I cannot, and it seems, neither can God, make you SEE!
Then --- just by the buy --- How is it possible you could request something
like “the scripture that says sabbath has
to be on Saturday and no other day”? Your presupposition of a required “scripture that says sabbath has to be on
Saturday and no other day” : “S-a-t-u-r-d-a-y”,
IS FALSE; and therefore IMPOSSIBLE TO ANSWER.
Jacob:
Well Eleven, God always
identified his days by numbers even form the beginning of time. Genesis 2:3,
god blessed the seventh day and sanctified it because that in it he rested from
all his work. Look in the international dictionary and the definition states
that a week consists of Seven days starting with Sunday. Read saint John the 20
Chapter verse 1, notice in the beginnig of the scriptures it says the first day
of the week to identify what day it actually was Mary went to the sepulchre,
but god did not bless the first day of the week, he stayed consistent, so for a
fact we know that jesus did not rise on the first day of the week because the
scripture also states mary went early when it was still dark, and the body of
jesus was gone. Another point matthew the12th chapter verses 38 thru 40 where
jesus indicated how long he would be in the grave which was 3days and 3nights
now ask yourself because most people era on this subject, if jesus said 3days
and 3nights why is that you cant count 3days and 3 nights from what they so
call good friday to sunday the first day of the week, when god first of all
didnt bless the first day nor did jesus rise on that day. In Daniel the 9
chapter verse 26-27 it says jesus died in the midst of the week, the middle
,this would be wednesday. If you count 3 days, 3 nights you would get jesus
rising on the seventh day, seeing that the seventh day is important to god he
also had a man killed for gathering sticks on the sabbath day. The seventh day
is the only day God named which he called he sabbath. In conclusion the sabbath
day points to a greater day in the future. It is urgent that you know what day
the sabbath day is, grace and peace in the name of JESUS.
let me also clear some
things you said on the end of your response, first of all, we know that nobody
in the bible ever had a dispute on what day the sabbath day was. revelations
the 1st chapter and 10th verse john was not speaking of the sabbath day as
being the lords day he was only saying he was actually in the vision on the day
that the lord came, because the lord never classified the sabbath as being the
lords day, he classified it as being a feast day. read leviticus 23rd chapter 1
thru 4 and you will see that. and at what point did paul speak of the sabbath
in galatians 4 and 10
GE:
Jacob, that middle of the 70th week story of yours doesn't go up. Do you
interpret the rest of the 70 weeks literally too? No you don't (I know). Then
why mess with the Scriptures so? Did Jesus die on Wednesday morning 6 o'clock
the precise “middle of the week”? It is you who insisted on a literal
interpretation; that's how ridiculous it gets. Your view demands you have to
count from Wednesday to 'Saturday', so that you'll get FOUR days; not “three
days” as the Bible requires. Crucifixion was on Thursday; there is NO doubt or
question about it; therefore Resurrection had to be --- to quote --- “On the
Sabbath”. Which was “the third day according to the Scriptures”.
In
Rv1:10 John speaks of the Sabbath Day as being the Lords Day, because by
calling it the 'Lord's Day' he implied Jesus Christ in obtaining 'Lordship'
through victory over 'the last enemy', death. In other words, John with
the Title, 'Lord', says Christ is Victor and Lord of the Day of Victory and
Lordship— which is the day of “God, having entered into His Rest”.
That’s why Hb4:9 says “there still remains a keeping of the Sabbath Day for
the People God”— ‘God’, this ‘Lord’, “Jesus (who had) given them
rest”. So the 'day' of his having obtained Lordship and 'Lord' as Title and
Sign of His Lordship, became “The Lord's, Day”: ‘Lord’s Day’ by Victory
of the Lord of Victory: ‘Lord’s Day’ the earthly spatial day of Christ's
Resurrection from and over “the last enemy destroyed” which “is death”,
1Cor15:26.
John
says he was actually “in the Spirit” worshipping this Lord of his, by faith through spiritual communion
with all who “worship God in Spirit and in Truth” on THIS “Day” “The
Lord's Day”.
John doesn't say he was “in the vision”
-- which is charismatic vain talk. The purpose, meaning, and nature of “The
Seventh Day” and only “Sabbath of the LORD God Almighty and YOUR God”,
is to worship the Lord in Truth and in Spirit through The Communion of the
Saints the Congregation of Christian Believers, “Sabbaths’ Feasting” – in the
House of God which is God’s Faithful – through all the world and through all
time scattered, confessing, magnifying, witnessing and WORSHIPPING the Name of
the Lord Jesus Christ before one another, before the world, and before the Face
of God “ASSEMBLING” on “The LORD’S DAY”. God “MADE the SABBATH”
for no other purpose. How could God expect to be honoured by his People had He
not “MADE KNOWN TO THEM”, “My, Holy” -- 'holy', that is, “set apart”, “specific”,
“purpose-made”, 'day' “The Seventh Day”?
To “remember
the Sabbath to keep it holy” MEANS, “The Body of Christ’s Own”,
KNOWS the Sabbath on the Seventh Day and which the Seventh Day remembered and
‘kept’ for God’s accomplishment on it and with it, IS! To do it not, or to do
it on another day preferred to THIS Lord’s Day the “Seventh Day Sabbath of
the LORD God”, is apostasy, sin, and blasphemy, when, it is become the
wilful day for and of wilful worship of the Church, especially
.....
1) since it is being KNOWN that it
is “the lord SUN’S day” – ‘Sunday’ – the Lord Jesus Christ’s direct rival “no-god”
of this world (Gal4:8-10), for the direct rival allegiance and worship in this
world by “the People of God” “The Body of Christ’s Own” (Hb4:9,
Col2:17), and especially
.....
2) when “the lord SUN’S day” – ‘Sunday’ – is wilfully being made to appear to
be “The Lord’s Day” by the SCRIPTURES
being manipulated and mutilated to that end and effect.
The day the LORD will come (not “came”, yet), 'the last day' or 'day of
judgment' is 'hehmera tou kuriou'; not 'kyriakeh hehmera'.
Jesus ‘classified the Sabbath as being
the Lord's Day' having declared Himself the Lord Victor “of the
Sabbath Day”. Mk2:27-28.
The Sabbath and Seventh Day throughout Scripture receives eschatological victorious meaning for its having been the Day of
the LORD'S finishing, sanctification, blessing, rest, and TRIUMPH IN BATTLE
(Gn2:2-3, Ex14:14,24,30, 2Chr23:8,11, Ps136, Nh9:10,14). “SO DIDST THOU GET
THEE A NAME, AS HAS THIS DAY” got its name, “Thou camest down (for
Yes, the Sabbath is a “feast day” -- read Colossians 2:16-17 and you will see
that. The LORD God shall triumph in the ongoing BATTLE over which is His Holy
Sabbath Day, whether the unholy and idolatrous Sunday, or the blessed,
hallowed, Sabbath of God’s finishing and rest from all his works through and in
Jesus Christ in and through resurrection from the dead “In Sabbath’s-time”, the concept and reality of “The
Seventh Day of the week” so utterly hated and feared by Eleven and his
hordes.
Have you ever heard Sunday-keeping Christianity praise God and worship Him,
hallowing his Sabbath Day in remembrance of God’s great deeds through Jesus
Christ? You have not; you have until this day heard God’s praises sung over his
Sabbath Day by virtue of God’s Holy Law the Scriptures in Commandments and
Statutes of the LORD God; but not by virtue of Christ the Lord Jesus in
Stone me for telling you, Jesus’ Body of Saints!
Eleven:
Ok, step away from the lager, and
answer the question.
Where does God command saturday only sabbath?
PLEASE SHOW ME IN SCRIPTURE WHERE
GOD SAYS
7TH DAY OF THE WEEK Can you please show me that?
Because if I am in error, I would LOVE to be corrected ! Show me the scripture
that says sabbath has to be on Saturday and no other day.
I want to see chapter and verse.
Because if you can't show me that, maybe you will finally see that it is a MAN
MADE LAW, and NOT a law of God!
GE:
No, Eleven, I no longer believe one word of yours; no question of yours which
is a question for show merely. You do NOT, “LOVE
to be corrected”; you ARE, hating to be corrected, no matter if it were I
or the Scriptures or God who corrected you.
Eleven:
Have you found it yet? No?
That's because it doesn't exist.
God said six day you will do all your work, and take the 7th off.
He never said, start your work on Sunday and take Saturday off for the sabbath.
But I'm still waiting. You insist I'm wrong.
All I'm asking you to show me (according to scripture) that I'm wrong.
GE:
Have I found it
yet? No, have YOU not found it yet,
Eleven? YOU, are the one who is so
CERTAIN WHICH D-A-Y God is speaking about when speaking of the Seventh Day
Sabbath or Sabbath or Seventh Day as such, that YOU, so insist it CANNOT BE,
_IT_ because then you will actually have to keep it.
YOU are the one who
is so obsessed THIS, _DAY_ exists, that you so insist “it doesn't exist” until you think others must eventually become as
confused as you are.
You, Eleven, speak
of The Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD God Almighty and The Lord Jesus' Day
when you denounce it as the 'physical
sabbath' God allegedly so 'hates',
you call it “Saturday” and have all cast it away to go after Sunday
to “superstitiously by observing worship” _IT_ which Matthew calls “the
First Day of the week”! But you pretend it’s impossible to show “WHERE GOD SAYS 7TH
DAY OF THE WEEK”. Crazy!
Pete:
Biblically, Saturday is the only
day that could be identified with the weekly Sabbath. Sunday is the only other
day of the week that is claimed to be a Day of rest. It has no basis in
scripture, but has its origin in the Pagan
This was only one change by the Roman church. It implemented annual holy days
like Lent, Easter, Christmas, All saints day, New Years etc. instead of the
seven annual Jewish feast days. In short, it paganized Christianity.
Oh, let me add: there is nothing in Scripture that commands Gentile Christians
to observe the Jewish Sabbath either.
GE:
Surely there isn’t.
But your tactics are just the same as Eleven’s. You only don’t play with words
like ‘Saturday’ and ‘Sunday’ that are not concepts or days of the Bible or
Gospel; you play with words like “the Jewish Sabbath” that also is no concept or
day of the Bible or Gospels.
Eleven:
Let's focus on the first part of
your statement Pete.
You said:
Biblically Saturday is the only day that could be identified with the weekly
sabbath.
I agree with that, but tell me - how was that established?
Lightbearer:
Genesis 1:1-31And the evenings and the mournings were
days1,2,3,4,5,and6.Interesting to me is that the evening and mourning were
established before the sun ,moon, and stars.Which tells us that the time table
for a day and a week were aready established before thesun and moon.It was the
day that God had made that regulated the relationship betwen the earth and
sun.Notthe earth and sun regulating the day.
Genesis1:27Being created in His image and His likeness Adam was one with
God.
Genesis2:3The 7th evening and mourning was.... and God rested on the day
7 from all His work that He did, and made that day blessed.Blessed is barak in
the Hebrew this word means kneel.Kneeling was done in biblical times out of
respect and love for a superior.On top of making the 7day a day of homage, a
day of kneeling, a day of adoration.He sanctified it.Which is qadash which
means it was clean He hallowed it consecrated it set it apart for holy use.
For who Himself?No, the Sabbath was made for man Adam, and on that first
Sabbath he thet was made in His likeness and His image rested with God and
could not help hisself because he was one with Him
Eleven:
There
is no confusion at all.
Work 6 days, observe the sabbath on the 7th day.
God never locked in “saturday” as the only day to observe sabbath.
All He locked in was sabbath itself.
People keep insisting it has to be done a certain way or they are in violation
of God's laws. To make a claim like that, you have to be able to back it up!
It's obvious God commands the sabbath observance, but nowhere can we find
mention of a particular day because God never said the 7th DAY OF THE
WEEK. He merely said, the 7th day. That's all.
Why do we keep insisting on shackling ourselves when Jesus came here to set us
free?
GE:
“It's
obvious God commands the sabbath observance, but nowhere can we find mention of
a particular day because God never said the 7th DAY OF THE WEEK.
He merely said, the 7th day. That's all.” ..... Nonsense! It's
obvious God commands the sabbath and its observance, and each and every time
can we find mention of a particular day
because God virtually every time meant the 7th DAY OF THE WEEK when saying ‘Sabbath’, and virtually every time when
saying “The Seventh Day (of the week)” meant the Sabbath. Virtually
always.
Napoleon's
attendant once asked him if there is proof of God's existence. (Do you have
proof of God's existence?) Napoleon answered the man: There are the Jews. Karl
Barth also thought the Jewish nation as it were, 'proved' God's existence. (I
long have forgotten where Karl Barth said it; but he did.)
Why is the Jewish nation – a genetically distinct human race – sort of 'proof'
for God's existence? Because of God's dealings with them in
particular, God in consequence in particular may be known! Can you believe
that? I find no difficulty believing it.
Now if you believed God's dealings with the Jews, would you also believe God's
dealings with the Hebrew prophets and authors of the Old Testament? (In other
words, Do you believe the 'Inspiration of the Scriptures'?)
If you believed God's dealings with the Jews and involvement in the Scriptures,
would you also believe God's dealings with the human race as a whole through
Jesus Christ? In other words, do you believe Jesus has “shown the Father” to
men --- to real people?
Then you have found THREE witnesses to the reality, existence, truth and
validity of also “The Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD your God”.
Come on Eleven, don't be childish! And also stop asking after 'Saturday' from
the Scriptures. It's not there, as we all know but you want it proven. The very
fact you so insist on 'Saturday' must be proven from the Scriptures implies you
very well know “The Seventh Day” is the only Scriptural 'name' of that
particular day on men's calendar of days and months and years marked,
‘Saturday’. Stop try being silly!
But haven't you HEARD me, when I gave you Matthew 28:1 which states the events
that surrounded the resurrection of Christ from the dead (Do you believe
Christ's resurrection from the dead --- from the grave in fact --- from the
reality of DEATH into the REALITY of LIFE?) Then why is it you are BLIND for
the reality of WHEN and on WHICH DAY, Jesus rose from the dead : “On the
Sabbath” : the “D-A-Y BEFORE the First Day of the week” and
therefore
“The(-Seventh-Day-of-the-week-by-NAME-of-the-)Sabbath”
in Mt28:1. (Never call it ‘Saturday’
because ‘Saturday’ is the day of the pagan worshippers of days of which
'Sunday', also called in actual fact “The Lord Sun's Day”, was “The Queen of
Days” : RAWEST most despicable IDOLATRY, Christianised.
Bigmeanandugly:
The Hebrew calendar was different
from the one that we use today. To them, the day began and ended at noon. With
this consideration, the proper time of the Sabbath is from noon on Saturday,
until noon on Sunday.
Unfortunately, these leads to the recognition that the time frame of the
crucifixion is not entirely accurate, as it implies that Christ died in the
early evening on a Friday and was resurrected three days later. Problem there
is we are told in scripture that Jesus was resurrected on the first day of the
week, which would be Sunday, afternoon. That only puts him in the ground for
two days.
Can anyone help explain this?
GE:
I have started a new thread for just that purpose. Let's please discuss it
there from scratch.
I'll copy and paste your post there ..... or wait, I have been warned not to do
it on this forum. So please repeat your post there again.
Eleven:
The Jews ran on a lunar calendar, which
means a new day started at 6pm.
In other words, Friday would run from 6pm on thursday, until 6pm on Friday.
Friday at 6pm starts a new day which would be Saturday.
Wednesday would have been the Feast of the Passover, Jesus was the Passover
Lamb
The Feast of Unleaven bread on Thursday.
Jesus was crucified on a Thursday and finally died by 3pm- Day one.
In the tomb Friday 6pm until 6pm Saturday - day two.
Somewhere on Saturday 6pm until the following morning- Jesus rose from the dead
- the third day.
Confusing yes, because people are usually busy counting toes and fingers to
figure out 3 days. But you have to realize Jesus is the ultimate Passover Lamb
and sacrifice, and keep an eye on when those things occurred in order to fulfill
prophecy.
GE:
Now the
man who wrote this above, one Mr Eleven, he pretends he doesn't know which is
the Sabbath, Seventh Day of the week! Have you ever seen ....
Next, dear Eleven, I also have never in my life heard the passover-feast day came
before the passover-slaughter day. You are ..... let my close my trap!
Eleven,
I strongly recommend you start “counting
toes and fingers to figure out 3 days”!
According to you, Eleven ....
First of the three days : Wednesday “Feast”;
Second of the three days : Thursday “crucified”;
Third of the three days : Friday ----- ah ah ah NO!
Saturday fourth day the third? ----- ah ah ah NO!
Then SUNDAY “the third day” of the five days?
HOW'S THAT BLOKES, one sir Eleven THE THEOLOGICAL EINSTEIN OF TIME EQUATIONS
AND RELATIVITY !!!
The Jews
did NOT 'run on a lunar calendar';
they used a 30 days-a-month calendar.
A new day did not “start at 6pm”. The
Bible and Jews' 'new day' started
sunset zero-to-one 'the first hour'
after sunset.
In other words, the Bible and the Jews knew of no 'Friday'; they only know “The
Sixth Day of the week” which would run from 6pm on our 'Thursday', until
6pm on our 'Friday'. 6pm on our 'Friday' at 6pm, would start a new day which in
proper terms would be ‘The Sabbath Day’.
“Wednesday”, WAS NOT “the Feast of the Passover”. “The Feast of Unleavened Bread” was the
day AFTER, “Thursday”, “Day one” AFTER 'The Fifth Day of the
week' on which “Jesus was crucified ....
and died by 3pm.”.
“Thursday”, therefore, WAS in fact “Day one”.
And 'Friday' “The Feast Day” after “Day one” (Thursday), was, 'day two'.
Then, (surprising surprising!) in the right direction .....
“In the tomb Friday”, indeed!
But : NOT, “6pm until 6pm Saturday”.
Where did you get that from?
Joseph “that day The Preparation” ('Friday') “laid the body of Jesus
in a sepulchre .... mid-afternoon before the Sabbath Day” ('sabbaton
epefohsken'), “and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre”, “and
departed”, “and the women went home”, “by the time it was the
Jews' preparations” : Lk23:53 Mk15:46 Mt27:60 Lk23:56 Jn19:42.
“.... - day two.” 'Friday' : “the Feast” .... and the Interment, finished – not begun!
“Somewhere on Saturday 6pm....” Just above, Eleven has told us, “which means a new day started at 6pm”.
So according to Eleven it was 'Sunday'
“at 6pm”, NOT “Somewhere on Saturday” still as he now wants to make us believe
him.
And HOW, just HOW, is it “on Saturday 6pm
until the following morning- Jesus rose” but Jesus didn't rise “on Saturday”, but on 'Sunday'?
And HOW is “on Saturday - day two”,
after all this above?
Confusing yes, because Eleven is usually busy counting some ethereal 'days of
the week' that according to him, QUOTE, “DO
NOT EXIST”.
“But you have to realize Jesus is the
ultimate Passover Lamb and sacrifice, and keep an eye on when those things
occurred in order to fulfill prophecy” ..... WOW! Just too much after all
the above for an ordinary man like me's understanding.
“On
the Sabbath Day the day proper which mid-afternoon is before the First Day of
the week .....”, Mt28:1.
Conversation
closed. 28 July 2009
Gerhard
Ebersöhn
Private Bag X43
Sunninghill 2157
http://www.biblestudents.co.za