Why Sunday can NOT be the Lord's Day
Author of Topic: Why Sunday can NOT be the Lord's Day : wopik
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wopik
posted
October 21, 2004 04:28 PM
In the NT book
of Revelation -(14:7), John says he saw an angel (or messenger) saying, with a
loud voice, Fear God and give glory to him that made heaven, and earth, and the
sea, and the fountains of water.
Now there is
only one commandment, which tells us – and indeed was given to remind us – who
created the heavens, the earth, and the sea, and the fountains of water.
That commandment
is the seventh day Sabbath of the fourth commandment, Remember the Sabbath day
to keep it holy....for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea...
(Exodus 20: 8-11).
For by Him
[Jesus] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth all
things were created by Him and for Him [Jesus] (Colossians 1: 16).
by whom also He
made the worlds (Hebrews 1:2).
Even in the New
Testament Church, the God of creation is the one to worship, to fear and to
honour (Rev 14:7).
The seventh day
Sabbath is the Creator's day -- an honourable day to HONOUR Him (Isaiah 58:13).
Alcott
posted
October 22, 2004 01:54 AM
"Why Sunday
can NOT be the Lord's Day"
Whom DOES it
belong to, then?
wopik
posted
October 22, 2004 03:38 AM
Hello Alcott,
Acts 13:40-42
-----
Now, notice what
happened.
The Jews left
the synagogue, and only Gentiles remained. "And when the Jews were gone
out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached
to them the next Sabbath" (Vs. 42).
What an
opportunity for Paul and his men!
Here were only
Gentiles, asking the apostle to the Gentiles about coming together again for
worship, and hearing the word of God preached, on the next Sabbath day!
All Paul had to
do was to explain to them that they didn't need to wait a whole week; they
could come back the very next day, our Sunday, to celebrate the
"Eucharistic sacrifice!" Did Paul do this?
Remember, Luke
wrote these words about thirty years after Christ had ascended to heaven. There
would have been plenty of time for the "custom" of "Christians
meeting together on Sunday in commemoration of the resurrection" in those
thirty years.
What happened?
"And the next Sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the
word of God" (Vs. 44). These Gentile believers were not counseled to come
back the next day.
Not one word was
said about Gentile Christians observing Sunday as the day for worship. Instead,
they all came together the following Sabbath day. Paul, the apostle to the
Gentiles, was certainly not observing the first day of the week, nor was he
teaching Gentile Christians to do so.
No, he
continually taught them on the Sabbath days.
Alcott
posted
October 22, 2004 05:13 AM
Whom DOES it
[Sunday] belong to, then?
danrusdad
posted
October 22, 2004 06:36 AM
Rom 14:4 Who are
you who judge another's servant? To his own lord he stands or falls. Yes, he
will be made to stand, for God has power to make him stand.
Rom 14:5 One man
esteems one day as more important. Another esteems every day alike. Let each
man be fully assured in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He who
observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day,
to the Lord he does not observe it...
Rom 14:7 For
none of us lives to himself, and none dies to himself.
Rom 14:8 For if
we live, we live to the Lord. Or if we die, we die to the Lord. If therefore we
live or die, we are the Lord's.
Rom 14:9 For to
this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the
dead and the living.
Rom 14:10 But
you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you despise your brother?
For we will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11 For it
is written, " 'As I live,' says the Lord, 'to me every knee will bow.
Every tongue will confess to God.' "
Rom 14:12 So
then each one of us will give account of himself to God.
CGE:
“Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that
he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.”
“The Lord’s Day” derives its name from this.
Jesus rose from the dead to be Lord of the People of God, which
means, He rose to be the Commander in the
And this verse is in the middle of a section that deals with, and
explains, just what the
Jesus took the Law to the cross in His own body, and there in His
own flesh, nailed it to the tree. Christ now rose – Himself in the place of
that Law and Himself the Law now – henceforth and for eternity the Living Word
and Law of God in His own Person.
So, if the Scriptures speaks of “The Lord’s Day”, it refers to the
Day of Jesus’ resurrection wherein He through dying and rising earned Authority
and Lordship – having been exalted in His resurrection to the right hand of
Authority of God in heavenly spheres (Eph.1:19f), where “all His standing is a
sitting” or resting (Klaas Schilder) – the Royal ‘Seat’ of Divine Authority,
Rule and Law and Justice – wherein all the works of God are finished and indeed
perfected – on this day so and thereto created and appointed!
“The Lord’s Day” must refer to the Day of Jesus’ resurrection; it
cannot refer to any other day. The Lord’s Day therefore – by contingency – is
the very day on which Jesus rose from the dead. That day was, and had to be –
for God appointed it to that end – “The Sabbath Day”, according to all the
Scriptures, and in particular, according to Matthew 28:1 and Colossians
2:12-17.
(Notice how the Sabbath and the Resurrection in so many words are
mentioned together and directly are associated with each other.)
That is my answer to your challenge, “Why
Sunday can NOT be the Lord’s Day”.
tamborine
lady
posted
October 22, 2004 08:49 AM
Alcott, Sunday
is just another day, that Christians decided to worship on. It's made up of
whole cloth. But if people want to worship on that day, there's nothing wrong
with it, it is no sin.
Wopik,
You're on the right track, don't let anyone talk you out of it!!
Briony-Gloriana
posted
October 22, 2004 09:38 AM
In my book every
day is God’s day, but Sunday has been deemed the day for the worship of God and
traditionally no work was done on the Lords Day.
The family
worshipped together and focused on the spiritual needs.
CGE:
“In
my book every day is God’s day …”
Show me that book? Show me where it reads “every day is God’s day”? Show me where it reads that Sunday has been deemed the day for the worship of God?
By what authority or by what example then did the family worship together and
focused on the spiritual needs
on Sunday for, if every
day, is God’s day?
In my Book – in the Bible I read – the Sabbath is the Lord’s Day.
music4Him
posted
October 22, 2004 11:45 AM
~Wopic there may
not be too much I agree with you on but, on getting this right.
Listen to Tam
too.... and don't let no one back you down.
I can't help it
folks (and I was raised Baptist), but where does it say in the bible that the
7th day Sabbath changed to the 1st day of the week? Look at your
calendars.......& read the word. I will still go to church on Sundays, but
shouldn't
Saturdays be
observed as the Sabbath? BTW, Just a
question....didn't
Jesus do good on the Sabbath by teaching in the synagogue(s), healing the
sick.... and well... basically doing good to others? Shouldn't we then follow
Jesus lead on when He observed the Sabbath and how?
CGE:
“…
and how?”
How did Jesus “lead
on”, and how did He “observe the Sabbath” as an example and Law for us to “follow”? Only by what
He did and taught on the Sabbaths while living? Only by the life-giving and
life-restoring WORKS He performed on the Sabbath Days before He suffered and
died? If by these, how much more then by the mightiest DEED of all Jesus’
healing works should it be seen how He lead on and observed the Sabbath Day by His resurrection from the dead, “In Sabbath’s fullness
indeed”!
(Yes, even the “indeed” is legitimate, as from two things: de, and, epi! Even kai idou may be seen as referring back to the first phrases of the verse
(Mt.28:1): “Then suddenly, it being in Sabbath’s fullness of daylight indeed,
there was an earthquake.”)
wopik
posted
October 22, 2004 12:44 PM
danrusdad
quote: Rom 14:5 One man esteems one day as more important. Another esteems
every day alike. Let each man be fully assured in his own mind.
Romans
14 has nothing to do with the Sabbath.
Verse 2
contrasts the one who "eats only vegetables" with the one who
believes "he may eat all things": meat as well as vegetables. Verse 6
discusses eating or not eating and is variously interpreted as referring to
fasting (no eating or drinking), vegetarianism (eating only vegetables) or
eating or not eating meat sacrificed to idols.
CGE:
“Verse
2 contrasts the one who "eats only vegetables" with the one who
believes "he may eat all things": meat as well as vegetables. Verse 6
discusses eating or not eating and is variously interpreted as referring to
fasting (no eating or drinking), vegetarianism (eating only vegetables) or
eating or not eating meat sacrificed to idols.”
I’m afraid I can’t see any of this in the passage. What an
unnecessary speculative complication!
Only the Old Testament annual feasts of Passover and Day of
Atonement qualify as fitting the peculiarities implied in this Scripture. These
Feasts had days more important than the rest of their feast days – days of
specific use of food and drink. Some Christians meticulously observed the
special days while other Christians regarded them all as equally important or
all as equally not so important.
The special feast days were special in that they were associated
with special food and drink. In this respect the Passover Sabbath stood out as
the Feast Day most important because of the first eating on it of Unleavened
Bread.
Some Christians thought it fitting not even to eat meat during
these days.
In later times unfermented wine was added to the menu for this
day.
Some Believers were so obsessed by these distinctions by food it
seemed they made of food and drink the entire
The whole affair had nothing to do with the Seventh Day Sabbath.
But just so it had nothing to do with the assumed practices
referred to in the paragraph quoted. Least of all had it to do with “fasting (no eating or drinking)”. Fact is, the passage says those who did not eat meat, drank
wine. It was a case of some who ate the Unleavened Bread and abstained from
drinking wine exactly as was the custom of Passover. But those who would rather
abstain from meat on Passover, would accordingly rather during Passover Season
have eaten ordinary leavened bread and would have drunk wine like on other
days.
Those who thought it better not to eat meat while Passover did so
not because they were vegetarians.
So the whole matter practically was very simple, but deeper moved
the sinister weaknesses of human nature.
Wopik:
Verse 21 shows
that meat offered to idols was the dominant issue of this chapter: "It is
good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother
stumbles or is offended or is made weak." Both meat and wine were commonly
offered to idols in the Roman world, with portions of those offerings then sold
in the marketplace.
CGE:
“… meat offered to idols …”
From nowhere the idea of meat offered to
idols is brought into Romans 14.
No! Paul in Romans 14 simply gives his best advice to the Church.
He says, be considerate; compromise; rather don’t eat meat (of the Passover
animal) if it offend your brother. Why judge and condemn each other over food
and drink? “The
So this Scripture leaves untouched the question of why Sunday
cannot be the Lord’s Day, and shall we agree fully with what Wopik further
writes,
Wopik:
Those who assume
the subject of Romans 14 as a retraction of God's law must force this
interpretation into the text.
In 1 Corinthians
8, Paul addressed the issue of eating meat that may have been sacrificed to
idols and consequently could have been viewed by some members as unfit to eat.
Paul's point in that chapter was that any association of food with idolatrous
activity had no bearing on whether that food was otherwise suitable for eating.
CGE:
Again we encounter the totally unnecessary remark, “meat that may have been sacrificed
to idols”. “Paul's point in
that chapter” – of 1Cor. 8 – “was
that any association of food with idolatrous activity had no bearing on whether
that food was otherwise suitable for eating.”
It is not Romans 14 the chapter we are dealing with!
Romans 14 shows nothing that provokes the idea that “some members could have viewed
(the) meat as unfit to eat”. Fitness or
unfitness of the meat was not the issue, but eating meat or not eating it. And
for that presupposition only the meat eaten on Feasts (OT) would fit.
As little as the passage deals with ‘clean or unclean food’, does
it deal with “meat that may have been sacrificed to
idols”. It not in the least in Romans 14
was “Paul's point” as “in
that chapter (1Cor.8) that any association of food with idolatrous activity had
no bearing on whether that food was otherwise suitable for eating”.
Wopik:
Paul's advice in
1 Corinthians 8 was the same as his conclusion in Romans 14:15: Be especially
careful not to offend a fellow member, causing him to stumble or lose faith
over the issue of meats. What is clear is that the Roman members' reason for
avoiding meat was directly related to the days they were observing.
The Sabbath is
nowhere mentioned in Paul's letter to the Romans; it simply wasn't the issue.
The days
mentioned here are obviously connected with avoidance of meat, indicating that
they are Roman or other observances and not any days of worship commanded by
God.
CGE:
No basis exists for asserting the halve fact, “The days mentioned here are
obviously connected with avoidance of meat”. The days mentioned here are obviously
connected with avoidance or eating
of meat, indicating that they are not
Roman or other observances and not any days of worship commanded by God, but obviously observances and days of worship in fact commanded
by God, the Passover’s observances and days of worship e.g., answering in every respect to the peculiarities the text
presupposes.
What the whole issue has to do with the question Why
Sunday cannot be the Lord’s Day, is obvious from the fact the Sabbath is left intact, so that it, and not
Sunday, can, and must, be the Lord’s Day.
LorrieGrace
posted
October 22, 2004 12:58 PM
I worship on
Sundays because that is when my church holds it's service. But it makes sense
that due to the fact God created ALL the days of the week, that would make ALL
the days His.
CGE:
‘My church’ also ‘holds
it’s service on Sundays’.
That gives no Scriptural reason why Sunday may be used for and
deemed as the Lord’s Day while it is it not. That is false worship. May God
forgive us, His Church, for it. May we not vex our Lord, but stop, and serve
Him according to the Revelation of the Mystery of Godliness which is Jesus
Christ our Lord – our “Lawgiver”.
It makes NO “sense
that due to the fact God created ALL the days of the week, that would make ALL
the days His” LIKE THE LORD’S DAY.
For NO days of
the week are like the Lord’s Day
“created” IN THE DAY of “the exceeding greatness of His power to us-ward
who believe, according to the working of His mighty power which He wrought (“created” – enehrgehken) in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and set Him at His
own right hand”. (Eph.1:19f) “WHEN” did that happen? “In the Sabbath’s
fullness”! (Mt.28:1)
LorrieGrace:
By looking at
our calendar, the 1st day of the week is Sunday thus making Saturday the
seventh day of the week.
However, when I
lived in
Johnv
posted
October 22, 2004 01:04 PM
Why Sunday can
NOT be the Lord's Day
Uhh, in my
Christian walk, every day is the Lord's day.
CGE:
That, I would imagine, can mean just one thing: that you brought
down all days including the Lord’s Day to the level of your, “every day”, while the great idea of “The Lord’s Day” is that it should
stand out above “every
day” and be elevated as and
for belonging to the Lord, Lord of that one Day His. The Lord’s Day therefore,
not only like “every
day”, but as Day of the
Lord, and as Day of His Body the Church, will be Day of His Worship and Day of
His Rest.
The Lord’s Day is the Day of and for His Body’s worship of Him.
That is what “The Lord’s Day” means; and that is why Sunday can NOT be the
Lord’s Day. Five reasons for saying so: 1, Prophetic Promise and Fulfilment; 2,
the pure sense of the name answering Prophetic Promise and Fulfilment; 3, The
Scriptures, 4, History answering The Scriptures; 4, the Common Practice of the
Early Church, and 5, pure practicality answering the Common Practice of the Early Church.
Johnv:
Now, if you're
talking about the Sabbath, Jesus says the Sabbath was made for man, not the
other way around. Bottom line is: do what the Lord commands, and take one day
in seven to rest. Your body needs it.
CGE:
“do
what the Lord commands, and take one day in seven to rest. Your body needs it.”
How do you reconcile that with “every day is the Lord's day”?
What command of the Lord is needed to have “every day is the Lord's day”?
In any way, where do you read that, “take one day in seven to rest. Your body needs it”?
Don’t be ridiculous!
It is not your
body that needs it – it is the Body that is of Christ’s Own – His Church – that
needs it. It needs its Lord’s Day for to worship Him, and therefore the Day is
said to be The Lord’s Day.
And that is why Sunday can NOT be the Lord’s
Day!
music4Him
posted
October 22, 2004 01:13 PM
LorrieGrace,
Good point with the different calendars.
Now here's a
question for everybody.
Being that Jesus
was Jewish I suppose the Jewish people would have the right day as the
Sabbath....does anyone have a Jewish calendar? What does it show as the 7th
day?
Gershom
posted
October 22, 2004 01:35 PM
wopik, You
better dig a little deeper. The Sabbath day is not determined by our calendar
and we cannot be held accountable to such. If you're gonna claim to keep the
Sabbath, you need to figure out moon phases, etc., not by looking at the
calendar you bought at Kmart.
tamborine
lady
posted
October 22, 2004 02:06 PM
I don't have a
Jewish calendar, but I do know that the Jewish peoples' Sabbath starts at
sundown Fri and goes thru sundown Sat. (our calendar).
I am SURE that
they know when the Sabbath is; they've been observing it for thousands of
years.
delly
posted
October 22, 2004 05:21 PM
God's days are
not man's days so how can any of us determine what day God's 7th. day actually
is?
All days belong
to the Lord anyway, so what difference does it make what day we choose to
worship. This is just another foolish impediment man puts in front of God's
people. We are saved by grace, not which day we worship God on.
CGE:
Who talked about how we
are saved? “To the LORD belongs
salvation” –says the Law the OLD Testament! It is obvious you don’t think so,
alleging it makes no difference, seeing we
choose, Hercules at the
crossroads!
Who said one is saved by which day he chooses to worship God on? But it is obvious whom he would not deem the Lord of the Day His
Holy, if he deem the Lord’s Day “just
another foolish impediment man puts in front of God's people”.
A very serious offence an impediment to His worship in front of God's people is, and anyway
another foolish impediment in front of God’s People is an impediment to The Lord’s Day for their worship of Him – which is exactly your
attempt.
delly:
wopik
quote: However, when I lived in
Yea, same with
my German calendar.
I believe the
church (papal?) changed Monday to the first day of the week, so Sunday could be
the seventh day, which would make them obedient to God's 4th commandment --
NEAT TRICK! ---- but invalid.
CGE:
“the
church (papal?) changed Monday to the first day of the week, so Sunday could be
the seventh day”
My world! Where do you get that from?
No, that would have been most contra-productive to the devil’s own
schemes and ends. It was long before there was a pope that Christians
themselves (Justin Martyr by name) transferred from the Sabbath all the honour
and virtue that belonged to it because of what Jesus Christ did, onto the Day
of the Sun. Justin is the first person on document writing of Sunday as the
‘eighth day’ whereas before him Barnabas associated the Sabbath Day with the
‘eighth day’ and “seventh era”. It also is Justin who first wrote of “Sunday”
as being the day of Jesus’ resurrection whereas before him Ignatius associated
the Sabbath Day with the “Lord’s Day”, and Matthew recorded Jesus’ resurrection
as having occurred on the Sabbath Day.
There you have the whole story of how Sunday emerged as the day of
Jesus’ resurrection and by reason of it later on became called “the Lord’s
Day”.
I wonder how God feels about people changing times:
"And he shall speak great words against the most High, and
shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to CHANGE TIMES AND
LAWS..." – Daniel 7:25.
Delly:
Johnv
quote: do what the Lord commands, and take one day in seven to rest. Your body
needs it.
One day in seven
won't do. God made a specific 24 hour period holy to Him!
"There
remains therefore a keeping of the Sabbath to the people of God" (Heb.
4:9). Look it up in the margin of some King James Bibles, or in an exhaustive
concordance!
CGE:
Yes, in fact simply look at the Greek text there – it says it
exactly so.
Delly:
This is the
truth of God from your own Bible, not the ideas of any man, or the twisted
misinterpretation of scripture that we have seen in attempts to justify Sunday
observance.
CGE:
This is the truth of God from your
own Bible, not the ideas of any man, or the twisted ‘TRANSLATION’ of
scripture that we have seen in attempts to justify Sunday observance. This is what most Sabbatharians close their eyes to, and this is
the responsible Sunday-observers’ glee.
Johnv
posted
October 22, 2004
quote:
Originally posted by wopik:
I
believe the church (papal?) changed Monday to the first day of the week, so
Sunday could be the seventh day, which would make them obedient to God's 4th
commandment -- NEAT TRICK! ---- but invalid.
Whoh now, hold
on a minute. First, let's literally presume that God created in six days, and
rested on the seventh. Nowhere in scripture does it say that the first day of
creation was a Sunday, and day God rested on was a Saturday. We humans
developed and patterned the seven day week, with the last day of the week being
the Sabbath recognition, as a tool to observe the Sabbath. But there's nothing
in scripture to make us think that the day we call Saturday is the same day
that God rested. In fact, when it's Saturday in one place in the world, it will
be either Sunday or Friday in another part of the world. And I'm reasonably
sure that God didn't invent the Greenwich mean time or the international date
line.
So, to be strictly
biblical, we are called to rest one day in seven. That day of rest is the
Sabbath. The Sabbath was made for us, and not us for it. The main purpose of
the Sabbath is for us to rest, and by us resting, we honour God who created us.
We are also not to allow anyone to judge us on our keeping of the Sabbath.
CGE:
“We
humans
developed and patterned the seven day week, with the last day of the week being
the Sabbath recognition, as a tool to observe the Sabbath. But there's nothing
in scripture to make us think that the day we call Saturday is the same day
that God rested.” (Emphasis CGE)
Question for you, Johnv, From what, would you say, did we humans develop and pattern the
seven day week from? You must admit we humans so to speak copied it from what the scripture makes us think, that the day we call the Seventh Day
is the same day that God rested!
So the ‘week’ must be at least as old as the human tradition that eventually were absorbed “in scripture” and became the Genesis-story of the creation. Therefore,
according to the Scriptures, God’s creative acts of the world’s first six days,
and His act of resting on the Seventh Day after, are what gave origin to our ‘human’ week. We
humans did not create the week
before God – He created it before us; that is, if we follow the Bible’s
time-sequence.
Now just as God for no second lets go of His creation since He
made it at first, just so He for no second lets slip the days-sequence of the
week out of His hand – or so I believe in God!
But deeper down your assertions are an implicit denial of God the
Creator, for if it could only be true that God created and rested the Seventh
Day, then we humans would be under obligation to observe the fact and the day
that stands for the fact. But since –according to your thinking– it cannot be
true or proven, the idea of a holy Day of Worship of this God Creator, is only
something that “We
humans
developed and patterned”, so that “the last day of the week being the
Sabbath” cannot be recognised, and must be useless “as
a tool to observe the Sabbath”.
Only question remaining is, What have you scored to show that
Sunday because of this now should be the Lord’s Day?
“Strictly
biblical, we are called to rest one day in seven”?
No, Sir, not even liberally!
“The
main purpose of the Sabbath is for us to rest, and by us resting, we honour God
who created us.”
The
main purpose of the Sabbath is – for us – to rest – and by us resting – we
honour God – who created us. This going by
your words, sounds like the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but isn’t the Gospel
neither by context of your foregoing remark, nor by your known intentions!
Johnv, you already sound like a pope! What smooth talk!
Alcott
posted
October 23, 2004
quote:
Originally posted by wopik:
God made a
specific 24 hour period holy to Him!
You got my
interest with that line, little Woppy. If there is a specific 24 hour period
holy to Him, then the number of people among many Sabbath-observers in the
world is exceedingly small. What you said means that only on one exact meridian
does the Sabbath begin and end. Where I am, 33 degrees N, what we call
"sundown" is now about 7 p.m. A few hundred miles east it is an hour
earlier, a few hundred miles west it is an hour later. If that SPECIFIC 24 hour
period begins where I am, then people east or west of me are wrong. For the
sake of argument, if that SPECIFIC time period begins and ends in the
wopik
posted
October 23, 2004 08:04 AM
God is not that
small.
You obviously
observe the Sabbath whenever the time comes to your geographical area.
wopik
posted
October 23, 2004 08:09 AM
Acts 13:40-42
-----
"And when
the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words
might be preached to them the next Sabbath" (Vs. 42).
What an
opportunity for Paul and his men!
All Paul had to
do was to explain to these Gentiles that they didn't need to wait a whole week
-- they could come back the very next day, our Sunday, to celebrate the
"Eucharistic sacrifice!" Did Paul do this?
What happened?
"And the next Sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the
word of God" (Vs. 44). These Gentile believers were not counselled to come
back the next day.
Not one word was
said about Gentile Christians observing Sunday as the day for worship. Instead,
they all came together the following Sabbath day.
Paul, the
apostle to the Gentiles, was certainly not observing the first day of the week,
nor was he teaching Gentile Christians to do so.
tamborine
lady
posted
October 23, 2004 09:09 AM
Amen Wopik!!!
Keep the Bible Study going!!
You've got a
handle on something! God is awesome Right on
Seth3
posted
October 23, 2004 12:09 PM
Wopic and
tamperine lady,
You’re both such
a blessing in Christ.
Amen and Amen!
Alcott
posted
October 23, 2004 12:41 PM
quote:
Originally posted by wopik:
God
is not that small. You obviously observe the Sabbath whenever the time comes to
your geographical area.
Never mind God's
size; how about your own?
Did you, or did
you not, say that "God made a specific 24 hour period holy to Him!"?
Rosell
posted
October 23, 2004 01:07 PM
Oh, dear. The
abomination of legalism, again.
CGE:
O dear o dear! The ugly face of self-righteousness!
Here we have an obviously God-fearing man (Wopic) trying his
honest best to explain God’s Sabbath Day to a sceptical looking Alcott, who
insists on having the honest man’s expressing himself with his wit’s end
phrase, “a
specific 24 hour period holy to Him”,
explained in legalistically unambiguous terms.
Who now is the real legalist?
I wouldn’t accuse either of the two of rendering themselves guilty
of “the abomination
of legalism”; I would say the one
so hypocritical as to accuse the other of it is the real legalist!
(Was it not old Paul who told us that whatever you accuse another
of you are yourself guilty of?)
Helen
posted
October 23, 2004 01:16 PM
Check Exodus
31:14-17:
"Observe
the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to
death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. For
six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to
the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. The
Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to
come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between me and the Israelites
forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the
seventh day he abstained from work and rested."
The commandment
tells us to work seven days and rest one. That is universal for all of us. The
particular day to rest was part of a covenant relationship between the LORD and
the ISRAELITES.
That passage
also is pretty specific about the creation week being composed of seven days as
we know them -- 24 hours long each...
another thread
another time...
CGE:
“The
commandment tells us to work seven days and rest one.”
No, it doesn’t! It tells us work six days and rest “the Seventh
Day”, and that’s “universal
for all of us” whether we have heard
of it or not, whether we like it or not, whether we believe it or not, or,
whether we accept it or not.
“The
particular day to rest was part of a covenant relationship between the LORD and
the ISRAELITES.” Exactly, “universal for all of us” of
God has just one “covenant” and only once for all entered upon the “relationship” based on that “covenant”, the “Covenant
Relationship” of the Covenant of
Grace “between
the LORD and the ISRAELITES”. Jesus Christ
our Lord is the Sum Total of that Covenant and of that Covenant Relationship. The Seventh Day Sabbath is “the particular day”
of that Covenant and Relationship, of that Lord and of that People – New Testament, and, Old
Testament.
wopik
posted
October 23, 2004 01:39 PM
Alcott,
quote:
Did
you, or did you not, say that "God made a specific 24 hour period holy to
Him!"?
Do you think the
Jews all over the globe keep Sabbath at the very same moment? They keep the
time holy when it comes to their neck of the woods!
The Jews in LA
and NY keep the Sabbath whenever it starts in their particular time zone. The
same that Christians do with SUNDAY -- the day holy to SOL INVICTUS.
wopik
posted
October 23, 2004 02:01 PM
Helen,
quote:
It
will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever..... Oh – then you admit
it is binding FOREVER on ISRAELITES – and throughout their generations?
No one can deny
that this absolutely BINDS the people of
Also you have to
admit that salvation and Christianity are OPEN TO JEWS AND ALL ISRAELITES. The
Gospel is the power of God UNTO SALVATION to every one that believeth; TO THE
JEW FIRST, and also to the Greek (Rom. 1:16).
So, then, the
Jew can be a converted CHRISTIAN!
CGE:
I think you meant to say, the Christian can be a converted Jew!
But yes, silently the ‘Jew’ or ‘legalist’ can be the look alike of a converted CHRISTIAN! Legalists usually are hypocrites.
Wopik:
Indeed, the
Church at the beginning was nearly altogether Jewish. So the JEW, even though a
Christian, in God's CHURCH, is BOUND to keep God's Sabbath as a perpetual
covenant, throughout his generations, FOREVER!
CGE:
Only issue is, WHY is the Jew – or anybody for that matter – “BOUND”? Because he is under the Law (the Written Law which the Jews even though not Christians also venerate), or is the person “BOUND” by BEING “a
Christian”? In other words, does
he “keep God's
Sabbath as a perpetual covenant, throughout his generations, FOREVER” because JESUS to him IS, The Law, “FOREVER”, or, because
the Fourth Commandment to him is the only law and the law exclusively and
finally? This is the issue ultimately. Not whether the Law is not abrogated or
still binding, but whether Jesus is The Law of God and in that capacity was the
Law’s End, crucified and raised to be Lord (Ro.14:9) – that is, to BE The Law
of God to the People of God.
It simply means, that God’s People will keep the Sabbath day
BECAUSE OF JESUS – because of their SALVATION AND FREEDOM AND LIFE, and NOT
because of the ‘Law’ that constantly threatens with death-sentence!
I speak for myself, and don’t care how anybody else might still
hang on for dear life to the Killer-Law for keeping the Sabbath Day. Or rather,
how much I actually care for them, and pity them, and love them, I would devote
everything for the opening of their eyes, left and right, Sabbath-keepers as
well as Sunday-worshipers.
Wopik:
Now, does God
have TWO KINDS of Christians? Is it SIN for a Jewish Christian to break the
Sabbath, and sin for all others to KEEP IT?
Must Jewish
Christians assemble on the Sabbath, and those of other nationalities on Sunday?
Didn't Jesus say a house divided would fall?
CGE:
I am convinced that to insist on Sabbath-keeping for the Law’s
sake and not for the redemption of Jesus Christ, can approach the same type of
devotion as that which God in Old Testament times rejected, saying, “Away with
your vain oblations … I can’t stand your Sabbaths … your feasts my soul
hateth!”
We must offer God the Sabbaths HE GIVES TO us – not those we
obtrude Him. God gave us Christians His Sabbath Day by Jesus Christ and for the
works of God which He performed, and in resurrection finished and perfected.
Sunday can only be a day as wilful as our worship since God NEVER
and IN NO MANNER explained, promised, or commanded it to us, nor demanded it
from us. But so also can the Seventh Day-Sabbath NEVER and IN NO MANNER be
explained, promised, demanded or commanded, from US! It must come from God, and
be received from Him, and therefore must thus be returned to Him in
consecration and sanctification unto Him.
Have we received the Sabbath through Jesus Christ, or through the
creation? We do find reason to believe and remember the Sabbath because of the
creation, but not and for nothing because of Jesus Christ? How pathetic!
It is the MOTIVE – God’s own doing – the reason for our offering
and devoting the Sabbath to the Lord, that counts. Do we present God with our
Sabbaths for the sake of Jesus and to the glory of God in the face of Jesus –
in other words, do we present God with our Sabbaths for the Worship of Him
through and in Jesus Christ? Or as our work of the Law? Do we vex God with our
Sabbaths and with our keeping of our Sabbaths for the exact same reason that
the Jews today still obtrude their Sabbaths and their keeping of them to the
God of Heaven while rejecting Jesus who IS God’s Rest? (This is what the Letter
to the Hebrews is all about, and I pretty much guess this is what virtually
every Sabbath-anecdote in the Gospels is all about!)
Most tragic, then we find every reason in Jesus Christ to believe
and keep the Sabbath, except His resurrection and forget and refuse it as
reason for and purpose of the Lord’s Sabbath Days!
Wopik:
“Is it SIN for a Jewish Christian to
break the Sabbath, and sin for all others to KEEP IT?”
CGE:
Perceptive question! It shows the real and basic concept behind
the Sabbath-Sunday ‘issue’ is the Godhead – not something less like the Law. Is
sin, sin against “the Law of Commandments in Ordinances”, or, is it sin
“Against Thee only”?
Is God changeable? If He was then His Law must be too.
Don’t ask the two questions the other way round, because then it
no longer will be a valid question, basing one’s presuppositions on the
changeable and temporary, and not on the Only One who has “life everlasting …
the King Eternal (Who is the Law Eternal), Immortal, Invisible, The Only Wise,
God! Honour and glory unto Him for ever and ever. Amen.” (1Tim.1:16-17)
Wopik:
Are there TWO
KINDS of Christians? Read Galatians 3:28-29: "There is neither Jew nor
Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for
you are ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS. And if you [you Gentiles] be Christ's, then
are you Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
So, since the
Sabbath is BINDING TODAY on the Jewish part of God's Church, and there is no
difference – we are all ONE in Christ – it is also binding on Gentiles!
Alcott
posted
October 23, 2004 03:59 PM
Stop being such
a coward, Wop. Did you or did you not SAY "God made a specific 24 hour
period holy to Him!"?
wopik
posted
October 23, 2004 04:22 PM
Hello, friend
Alcott,
quote:
For the sake of argument, if that SPECIFIC time period begins and ends in the
Jesus doesn't
want Sabbath keepers in any part of the world to miss out on keeping His holy
day, so as the day travels around the world, everybody who loves the Sabbath
has a chance to keep that wonderful restful twenty-four hour period in their
own time zone.
Jesus knew there
were Sabbath keepers in
When Paul and
Luke travelled all over Asia Minor, they undoubtedly kept Sabbath when it
occurred in Thessalonica, not
Why do you think
this is a problem?
CGE:
A reasonable question, Alcott, worthy reasonable consideration!
But what do we find? …
Alcott
posted
October 23, 2004 11:50 PM
quote:
God made a
specific 24 hour period holy to Him!
quote:
so as the day
travels around the world,
quote:
Why do you think
this is a problem?
The problem is
obvious. Does God have a "24 hour period holy to Him," as you said,
or is such a time period 48 hours?
wopik
posted
October 24, 2004 11:21 AM
Hello again,
friend Alcott
How do you
figure 48 hours – 2 days? I never heard of that. I am all ears.
Alcott
posted
October 24, 2004 12:26 PM
wopik said: quote:
God
made a specific 24 hour period holy to Him! Does not the LORD call this 24 hour
weekly Sabbath, holy? "...but the seventh day is the Sabbath of rest, a
HOLY CONVOCATION" (Lev 23:3) --- a holy gathering.
How do I figure
48 hours? If you can't see that, we must begin by a basic fact-- there are
points on the earth at which the sun is "going down" [disappearing from
over the horizon] at ALL TIMES. First, we need see if that much is agreed
before going further. Is it?
wopik
posted
October 24, 2004 03:20 PM
quote:
there are points on the earth at which the sun is "going down"
[disappearing from over the horizon] at ALL TIMES.
Agreed.
I don't like
this already, but go ahead. These long-winded explanations loose me
quick......but I'll hang in as long as I can.
Alcott
posted
October 24, 2004 06:27 PM
Okay, where is
the starting point, at which a particular sundown means the beginning of the
Sabbath, but at an inch further east the sun has just gone down on the 5th day
of the week, not the 6th?
tamborine
lady
posted
October 25, 2004 09:07 AM
Alcott, you’re
straining at a gnat and swallowing a Camel!
The phrase 24 hr
period is not in the bible, Sabbath is, and that's what is important. Not
knit-picking at a particular phrase.
Alcott
quote: The phrase 24 hr period is not in the bible, Sabbath is, and that's what
is important. Wopik obviously thought it "important" when he said
"There is a specific 24 hour period holy to God."
You cannot deny
that somewhere on the globe are boundaries between day 1/day 2, day 2/day 3....
And it is YOU, not me, that puts so much priority on which particular day must
be "holy." If I were sailing the Pacific somewhere near Fiji, and it
was 'Sunday' by my calendar, I would have no immediate concern about which side
of the International Date Line I was on, that this might be a "holy
day" or it might not. But if you were in the same position, you would have
to take a fix to know for sure if it were the Sabbath or not [and you can tell
me whether if it were, you could hoist a sail or not on that day]. If this does
not make such a vast difference regarding the Sabbath, then the Sabbath is not
the time-constricted concept with which you introduced this thread in the first
place.
PS: I didn't
know roast camel taste so good.
wopik
posted
October 25, 2004 05:06 PM
quote:
Wopik obviously thought it "important" when he said "There is a
specific 24 hour period holy to God."
I only mentioned
"24 hours" because that is how long a day is ---- so the holy Sabbath
day would be 24 hours long, where ever you're at ---- gee wiz...
music4Him
posted
October 25, 2004 05:59 PM
Well Alcott why
not look here at Genesis and tell me why it would not be important to observe
the Sabbath on the Sabbath day?
Gen. 2:2 –
And on the
seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh
day from all his work which he had made.
Gen. 2:3 –
And God blessed
the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all
his work which God created and made.
I thought if God
blesses something it would mean its important? When God sanctifies something I
thought that means "He" (not us) has set it apart from all other
days?
I know that we
are to walk with God daily but shouldn't the Sabbath be separate from the other
6 days?
CGE:
This I have found the commonest misunderstanding among
Sabbatharians that they always say ‘the Sabbath is the memorial of the
creation’. Now I don’t deny it is, but it is secondary.
Read the Commandment, it says, “Remember the Sabbath Day”! It
doesn’t say ‘Remember the creation’! “To keep it holy”, the Commandment says,
one should “remember the Sabbath Day”! What a difference!
Further on the Commandment gives the reason for remembering the
Sabbath Day. Says it, “FOR, in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the
sea, and all that in them is, but, THE SEVENTH DAY, the LORD RESTED – BY REASON
OF WHICH the LORD blessed the Sabbath
Day, and BY REASON OF WHICH, the LORD hallowed it.”
What is the reason – the virtue by which – God blessed the Sabbath
Day and hallowed it? The creation – all be it His creation – in six days? No!
By virtue of the fact God RESTED on it the Seventh Day Sabbath! So NOT because
of God’s work of the six days that went before the Seventh Day, the creation,
but because of God’s act or work of REST, which work –‘energy He performed’, tehn energeian
hehn enehrgehken, Eph.1:19-20–
was His act or work of the Seventh Day Sabbath and not, of the six days before
it – not, His act or work of creation, but His act or work of the finishing and
of the rest of it!
In the NT in Hb.4:4-5 it says thus “God on the Seventh Day rested
form ALL His works” – which undoubtedly includes His work of creation of the
previous six days, thus showing even the creation is not complete without God’s
work in and through Jesus Christ who is the REST of God and who is the
FINISHING of all the works of God IN RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD.
The Sabbath THEREFORE is not ‘the memorial of the creation’ – it
is the memorial of the Salvation of God through Jesus Christ our Lord Who is
“LORD” by reason of the fact God RESTED on the Seventh Day in HIM! It means,
Jesus our Lord in Person the Law of the Sabbath Day to us who believe in Him by
virtue of His resurrection from the dead on the Sabbath Day.
music4Him
Here's something
else.........
Ex. 20:8 -
Remember the
Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
How do we keep
the Sabbath holy? Do we go to the movies, do we go shopping, do we catch up
with the laundry and house cleaning that we let go during the week since we
were too busy or too tired from work?
Johnv
posted
October 25, 2004 06:04 PM
Music4him brings
up a good point. If I may expound, the Sabbath day (regardless of the day it's
observed) was designed for us. It was designed for us to be used as a day of
rest. If you're resting from work, but are doing all the housework on that day,
are you really resting?
I encourage
everyone to do yourself a favour. Take a day of the week and truly, truly rest.
Relax. Let your body recuperate from the work of the rest of the week. You
deserve it, and God gave you that day to bless you in.
CGE:
Legalism if ever there was! “You deserve it”, “(you)
take”, and “truly,
truly rest”, it says! Then it is
claimed “and God
gave you that day to bless you in”!
Which day in any case did God ‘give you to bless you in’?
The day I, “take
of the week” as long as not the day
that GOD gave in CHRIST for to do the WORK of HIS Body the Church on, namely
for the Worship of Him!
Alcott
posted
October 25, 2004 07:20 PM
quote:
Originally posted by music4Him:
Well
Alcott why not look here at Genesis and tell me why it would not be important
to observe the Sabbath on the Sabbath day?
Colossians
2:16-17 -- Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink
or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- things which are a
mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
CGE:
“no one is to act” – “YOU” – the Church – is the subject as well as object: “Do not
YOU let judge YOU anyone”. “You”, the Church, ‘acts’ in allowing or disallowing
“anyone ELSE to judge “you” the Church”. That is an order from Paul to the
Church!
“Food and drink”: It is not like in Romans 14 just “food and drink”, but the
“eating and drinking OF Feast” which is the spiritual eating and drinking or
feasting of Christ through faith by the proclamation of the Gospel through
Sabbath’s action of the Body that is Christ’s.
“A mere shadow”: From where the word “mere”? From the prejudice of the translators! This was no
insignificant shadow without substance, because the Body of which it is the
shadow is that of Christ’s Elect, and the Light that casts it is the HEAD of
the Body indeed Christ Jesus Himself. So in fact a ‘sign-ificant’ shadow true
and constant to its Object and Cause this is – the Sabbaths of the Church’s
celebration in Him!
Alcott
Romans 14:5 --
One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each
person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
wopik
posted
October 25, 2004 08:18 PM
quote:
Colossians 2:16-17 -- Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to
food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--
things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to
Christ.
Where does it
say NOT to observe the holy days and Sabbath in this verse?
Colossians 2:16
assumes they are keeping the holydays, etc., and says don't let anyone judge
you for it. This is 'rock solid' proof that the mostly gentile Colossian church
was keeping these days.
CGE:
Excellent remark!
wopik
Here is my
question? What is there about being 'a shadow' that means you don't do it?
CGE:
Question for you, Wopik – a well meant one: How do you “do” or make a shadow? By being a Body, in this case the Body that is
of Christ’s Elect, the Church.
Then, how does the Body cast or create a shadow? It can only do so
if the LIGHT is shining upon it – in this case the Light the Head – which is
Jesus Christ the Head of the Body that is of Christ’s Elect the Church.
So the shadow is completely dependent – it relies on the Body and
the Head for its existence. And that explains the New Testament Sabbath Day,
the Day of Worship-Rest of the Body that is of Christ’s Own. This is
Colossians 2:16-17!
Paul acts “attorney” (2:2, “paraclete”) for the Church in its defence against the prosecutor, the
world, that “judges” it for keeping – for “feasting” – the Lord’s Days of Worship.
That is why Sunday can NOT be the Lord’s
Day!
Wopik:
And if it is a
shadow of things to come, then it hasn't been fulfilled yet --- and if it
hasn't been fulfilled yet, why would anyone assume it's been done away with?
CGE:
O in Jesus the Sabbath had been fulfilled perfectly – which
institutes it God’s Eternal Day of Rest and for the People of God the Lord’s
Day for the worship of Him. Fulfilment by Christ means establishment and
confirmation – not abrogation.
In the resurrection of Him the creation is “finished” in and by
the very eternal redemption of it. In the resurrection of Him God also
“created” (“energised”, Eph.1:19f) the
Sabbath Day, therefore.
Alcott
posted
October 25, 2004 10:04 PM
quote:
Colossians 2:16 assumes they are keeping the holydays, etc., and says don't let
anyone judge you for it. This is 'rock solid' proof that the mostly gentile
Colossian church was keeping these days.
It would take
the reasoning ability of a magpie to deduce it's "rock solid proof"
that they were keeping those days. No one is to judge in regard to these
things.
Besides, did
they keep unnamed festivals? (likely)
CGE:
Why do you say “(likely)”? They certainly ‘kept’ NO “festivals” that THEY – the Church – did not ‘name’ or ‘called’,
“Sabbaths” – not according to this text! Theirs were “a Feast OF Sabbaths,
whether OF month’s, or, OF Sabbaths’ (weekly) (occurrence)”.
What’s so strange about it? Absolutely nothing! It’s most natural
for the
We find the word “month’s” strange because we have been
brain-washed it’s strange by the thousands of ‘scholars’ who would never want
it to mean the Lord’s Sabbath Days, for that would mean the death-knell to
Sunday observance and Sunday-worship, and would prove them, wrong!
Alcott
new moons?
(doubtful).
CGE:
“New moon” Singular, indicating ‘month’ and Genitive, indicating
“OF month’s occurrence”. If it were Plural, it might have been more in the
sense of “New Moon Festivals”. But even that would not mean the New Moon
Festivals of the Old Testament; it would still imply NO MORE NOR LESS than the
CHRISTIAN ‘feasting” by “month’s occurrence” of “Sabbaths’ eating and drinking”
– most probably the monthly Christian Lord’s Supper’s “eating and drinking” as
by faith partaking of the body and blood of Christ – the “monthly”,
“celebrated”, ‘Holy Communion’, as we call it.
Alcott:
As to food and
drink, you can find in other of Paul's writings you can eat what you want to.
The stipulation so often missed in this verse is "don't let anyone act as
your judge."
CGE:
Consider: "don't
let anyone act as your judge".
This is to insert the words “act as”, and, “anyone” – also to change the case of “you” – humahs, from Accusative to Genitive, “your” – everything which is inadmissible. The result of this is the
meaning, ‘Don’t permit anyone to be your teacher, to change a little here and
improve a little there and to drop that but to add this’, etc., which is
completely out of line with everything else written here by Paul.
No, Paul’s meaning is the simplest: “Do not you let anyone judge /
condemn you because of your eating and drinking of Feast of month’s or of
weeks’ ”.
This again means an unconditional and unbiased acceptance by Paul
as by the Church of Sabbaths’ CHRISTIAN celebration / ‘keeping’ / “eating and
drinking” / ‘observance’.
Alcott:
I assure you I
do not judge anybody for keeping a Sabbath, but I also refuse to let anyone
judge me in regard to it-- precisely as the verse says.
CGE:
As long as you refused “to let anyone
judge (you) in regard to it” – namely the
Sabbaths of the Lord, and not in regard to your own and unasked and
unjustifiable Sunday-keeping!
Alcott:
quote:
Quote: Here is my question? What is there about being 'a shadow' that means you
don't do it?
When David
walked "through the valley of the shadow of death," did he really
die, or did he live to write that? More relevant, Hebrews 10:1 says the law and
sacrifices are a shadow which could never make anything perfect-- so should we
carry those out? Your contention here does not hold up, and you do not even
really believe it if you are not burning animal carcasses on an altar.
quote:
and if it hasn't been fulfilled yet, why would anyone assume it's been done
away with?
My answer: If we
have the fulfilment in Jesus Christ we have no need of its "shadows."
What is your answer on that one?
CGE:
If I may answer – if
we have the fulfilment in Jesus Christ we have for the first time the reality of this shadow truly cast by this
Head of Light over this Body of Christ’s – even this “spectre of things
a-coming” – the eschatological dimension – reflected by the
‘shadow-of-Sabbaths’ of the Christian Church – the shadow that tells of “the
Body through nourishment being ministered, growing with the increase of God”.
wopik
posted
October 26, 2004 03:38 PM
quote:
...in respect to
a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- things which are a mere shadow of
what is to come...
if Jesus
fulfilled the Sabbath day, why is Paul still calling it a 'shadow' some 40
years after Jesus' Passion?
quote: [the
Sabbath days] "are a shadow of things to come". Something is a shadow
of what is to come.
Perhaps this is
talking about the 1000 year Millennial rest, and that the Sabbath is a shadow
of that rest ---- "there remains a keeping of a Sabbath to the people of
God" – Hebrews 4:9.
Alcott
posted
October 26, 2004 05:41 PM
quote:
if Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath day, why is Paul still calling it a 'shadow'
some 40 years after Jesus' Passion? For the same reason the writer of Hebrews
(Paul or not) says the temple sacrifices are a "shadow."
Now, back to the
argument you copped out on... At what point or line on the globe is the
"sundown" on the 6th day of the week the sundown on 5th day of the
week any distance east of it?
wopik
posted
October 26, 2004 06:51 PM
quote:
Now, back to the argument you copped out on... At what point or line on the
globe is the "sundown" on the 6th day of the week the sundown on 5th
day of the week any distance east of it?
I have no idea.
This is not how I study the Bible.
People all over
the world just keep Saturday or Sunday when ever it comes to them. I really
can't discuss this anymore.
The old saying
applies here: if satan can't get at you any other way, he'll waste your time.
Alcott
posted
October 26, 2004 09:51 PM
Oh, has he been
doing that? Smart move of yours then, to instigate the argument with this
thread in the first place.
You really took
a tumble, though, from "a specific 24 hour period holy to God" to
"keep Saturday or Sunday when ever it comes to them."
wopik
posted
October 28, 2004 03:12 AM
God Bless you,
Alcott.
tamborine
lady
posted
October 28, 2004 09:11 AM
Unless you are
perfect and have never made a mistake in the way you said something, I suggest
you drop it.
What Wopik said
(or the way he said it) does not negate the fact that the Sabbath exists
between fri at sundown and sat at sundown NO MATTER WHERE YOU ARE ON THE
PLANET!!
music4Him
posted
October 28, 2004 09:33 AM
Amen Tam!
Seth3
posted
October 28, 2004 11:03 AM
The Sabbath made
for man is the day the Lord made for us=The Cross. The entering into the
finished work of Christ wherein God is seen beforehand resting from His work
finished in Christ. Come unto Me you will find Rest for your souls. They who
laboured under the law working under the curses of it expressed as "no
rest day or night" find their release from the law and rest for their
souls in the finished work of Christ (The True Sabbath). We are to Enter into
the good things already here in Christ. Before Christ these were but shadows of
the day the Lord had made, the reality however is in Christ and Him in us.
Heb 4:2 For unto
us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not
profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it].
Heb4:3 For we
which have believed do ENTER INTO REST, as he said, As I have sworn in my
wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from
the foundation of the world.
Heb4:4 For he
spake in a CERTAIN PLACE of the seventh [day] on this wise, And God did rest
the seventh day from all his works.
Heb 4:5 And in
this [place] again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Heb 4:6 Seeing
therefore it "remaineth" that some must enter therein, and they to
whom it was first preached ENTERED NOT IN because of unbelief
Heb 4:9 There
remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he
that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his "own
works", as God [did] from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us
LABOUR THEREFORE TO ENTER into that rest, lest any man fall after the same
example of unbelief.
Paul
of
posted
October 28, 2004 11:52 AM
quote:
Originally posted by tamborine lady:
Unless
you are perfect and have never made a mistake in the way you said something, I
suggest you drop it.
What Wopik said
(or the way he said it) does not negate the fact that the Sabbath exists
between fri at sundown and sat at sundown NO MATTER WHERE YOU ARE ON THE
PLANET!!
Tam Does this
include for those who overwinter at the South Pole, where the sun doesn't show
for six months?
Personally, I
think that God's providence came and took away our obligation to keep the
Sabbath in plenty of time before it ever became a south pole problem. But those
who have seventh day observation issues would really have to think out their
position if they were assigned to serve some time there!
Paul
of
posted
October 28, 2004 11:54 AM
And pity the
poor inhabitants of the international space station! Going from sun to no sun
every two hours!
Seth3
posted
October 28, 2004 01:46 PM
Romans 14:5 One
man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let
every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
tamborine
lady
posted
October 28, 2004 02:06 PM
I think Seth
just explained it best.
Romans 14:5 One
man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let
every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Work it out for
yourself. Do it however works for you. I will leave it at that.
wopik
posted
October 28, 2004 07:44 PM
Hi to all the
wonderful folks!
quote: Romans
14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day
[alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Is Paul speaking
about the Sabbath here?
In Romans 14:5,
6, Paul wrote:
"One person
esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be
fully convinced in his own mind.
"He who
observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day,
to the Lord he does not observe it.
"He who
eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the
Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks."
Something else
is going on here. This doesn't sound like it has anything to do with worship
days at all.
Who has a good
commentary -- or online commentary???
wopik
posted
October 28, 2004 07:49 PM
Romans 14
The passage in
question about days is in verses 5 and 6, immediately between references to
eating meat and vegetarianism in verses 2, 3 and 6.
There is no
biblical connection between Sabbath observance and vegetarianism, so these
verses have to be taken out of context to assume that Paul was referring to the
Sabbath.
"The close
contextual association with eating suggests that Paul has in mind a special day
set apart for observance as a time for feasting or as a time for fasting"
(Everett F. Harrison, The Expositor's Bible Commentary, Vol. 10, p. 146).
It is apparent
that Paul was discussing Roman or other special days during which feasting,
fasting or abstaining from certain foods was practiced.
The context
shows us that some members of the congregation there were eating meat, and
others were abstaining from eating meat.
The vegetarians
were likely members who "feared lest they should (without knowing it) eat
meat which had been offered to idols or was otherwise ceremonially unclean
(which might easily happen in such a place as
CGE:
Everything fine, except that vegetarianism is irrelevant and unreal in this context.
Also “ceremonially unclean” is a corruption of Paul’s intent and actual words.
The true problem – pride and a judgemental spirit – surfaced when
brothers in Christ made of food and drink the
Alcott
posted
October 28, 2004 08:14 PM
quote:
Originally posted by wopik:
I
really can't discuss this anymore.
You can see how
much truth is in this guy by how much truth is in this statement of his and his
subsequent posts.
Seth3
posted
October 28, 2004 09:03 PM
Wopic, In
Genesis when it shows that on the Seventh Day God rested. This is a forethought
a reflection reflecting the purpose of Gods heart "into the furture"
of what God was desiring to do. what this "Seventh Day" it
represented (in Spiritual words though a very present reality)is what would be
realized in Christ (Through the Cross=Wisdom and Power of God).
It was a Shadow
of the good things to come not the Realities themselves the scriptures say.
God hid Christ
in His FOREKNOWLEDGE (Before Christ came) showing through various ways His
purpose in Christ WHO IS the TRUTH of the Old Testament. One Hides Him and
reflects Him the Other (Christ) validates what was written by God beforehand
concerning Him.
The Seventh day
is holy because of WHO Christ IS and What God purposed on that Day. If you look
God is "WORKING" with Christ in the gospels. He can't work if He
rested from ALL His work. His Work was not done it pointed TO the Work of
Christ on the Cross. When Jesus Said, "It is Finished" and yielded up
His Spirit. Gods work at that point is DONE. He laid the foundation STONE
"RIGHT THERE". IN "THE BEGINNING" (Is IN CHRIST) was THE
WORD (SPIRIT) and THE WORD (SPIRIT) WAS GOD (anyone who has seen me has seen
the Father).He was the EXACT REPRESENTATION OF THE FATHER (We are ONE)
Christ in
Revelation says, "I am "THE BEGINNING" (Christ defines it) and
THE END" All things are SUMMED UP in Christ.
He is the FIRST
and the LAST
The FIRST day is
"Light" the LAST day the Light of the world as leaving the world
(Seen as a MIST WENT UP on the Seventh Day). On Earth as the YEILDING UP of HIS
SPIRIT.
This is seen in
the Seventh Day itself when you see, "A MIST WENT UP" and watered the
surface of the ground.
God is showing
this then showing His pouring out His Spirit on all flesh (WATERING THE WHOLE
SURFACE OF THE GROUND) This is the RAIN (BLESSING) of God.
This is a
forethought in Gods heart as purposed in Christ.
Simply arguing
over Saturday or Sunday misses such immense beauty of the Cross of Jesus
Christ. We worship in Spirit and in Truth for God seeks those who worship Him
in this way.
The Work of God
is Christ Crucified= It is FINISHED= Come unto me and find REST for your souls.
Don't miss entering into this blessed Rest He hath prepared for you. As Mary at
His feet sat there and learned of Him, She chose the BEST PART and He said, it
shall not be taken from her. Thats Beautiful...
music4Him
posted
October 28, 2004 10:24 PM
Ok I just been
catching up on the post I have one more question for those who want to debate against
the 7th day Sabbath vs the 1st of the week Sabbath. Where in the bible does its
say that the Lord changed it? In Genesis it says it was the 7th day....the
Jewish people still keep it on the 7th day. With the www any one can find out
when it is through Jerusalem Post website. What is the big fear of keeping the
Sabbath on the same day? Afraid of being called names or what?
Seth3
posted
October 29, 2004 12:43 AM
Problem was they
always keep the Sabbath on the Seventh but never entered Gods Rest.
The Sabbath Rest
for Gods people is a Spiritual rest in ones soul.
But either day
one decides to go to a building to worship I would not think matters.
Try both
Saturday and Sunday if your bothered by it lol! I see everyday alike but like
the scriptures say that will vary depending on your perception but we are at
liberty to be convinced in our own minds over it. Do it to the Lord in all
things Amen?
wopik
posted
October 29, 2004 03:52 AM
This whole
planet full of people is going to have to keep the Sabbath when the LORD
returns to rule the Earth – Isaiah 66:23.
And since the
Apostles thought Jesus was going to return within their own life-times, it
hardly seems logical for Sunday to be practiced for one or two months, and then
the change over to the Sabbath -- at Christ's return.
The same
scenario holds true for the "holidays of the Bible" (Zechariah 14:
16-19).
BobRyan
posted
October 29, 2004 10:04 AM
quote:
Originally posted by wopik:
In
the NT book of Revelation -(14:7), John says he saw an angel (or messenger)
saying, "with a loud voice, 'Fear God and give glory to him that made
heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of water. ' "
Now there is
only one commandment, which tells us – and indeed was given to remind us – who
created the heavens, the earth, and the sea, and the fountains of water.
That commandment
is the seventh day Sabbath of the fourth commandment, "Remember the
Sabbath day to keep it holy....for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth,
the sea..." (Exodus 20: 8-11).
"For by Him
[Jesus] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in
earth....all things were created by Him and for Him [Jesus]" (Colossians
1: 16).
"....by
whom also He made the worlds" (Hebrews 1:2).
Even in the New
Testament Church, the God of creation is the one to worship, to fear and to
honour (Rev 14:7).
The seventh day
Sabbath is the Creator's day -- an honourable day to HONOUR Him (Isaiah 58:13).
Isaiah 58 quote:
13 "If
because of the Sabbath, you turn your foot From doing your own pleasure on My
holy day, And call the Sabbath a delight, the holy day of the LORD honourable,
And honour it, desisting from your own ways, From seeking your own pleasure And
speaking your own word,
14 Then you will
take delight in the LORD, And I will make you ride on the heights of the earth;
And I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father, For the mouth of
the LORD has spoken.''
Mark 2 quote:
27 Jesus said to
them, " The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
28 "So the
Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.'
So we do have
explicit texts assigning to the Sabbath – the title "Day of the Lord"
and Christ "Lord of the Sabbath day".
But is He not
Lord of Tuesday as well? Surely He is! However He did not sanctify, bless and
make holy (binding) Tuesday.
We can not then
honour Tuesday instead of His own choice of Sabbath – but we can certainly
worship God on Tuesday and honour Him in so doing.
BobRyan
posted
October 29, 2004 10:09 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Seth3:
Problem
was they always keep the Sabbath on the Seventh but never entered Gods Rest.
The
Sabbath Rest for Gods people is a Spiritual rest in one’s soul.
But
either day one decides to go to a building to worship I would not think
matters.
Try
both Saturday and Sunday if you’re bothered by it lol! I see everyday alike but
like the scriptures say that will vary depending on your perception but we are
at liberty to be convinced in our own minds over it. Do it to the Lord in all
things Amen?
Seth3, God does
not say that "all mankind will come before Me to worship as Legalists from
Sabbath to Sabbath -- since they are meeting on My Sabbath instead of Tuesday
and everyone knows you can only really spiritually worship Me on Tuesdays and
not on My Holy Day" in Isaiah 66.
The issue is not
how much we can worship on Tuesday or on Saturday. We can worship on both
freely. The issue is – what is God saying about HIS Holy Day?
Seth3
posted
October 29, 2004 12:11 PM
There's
But legalists
do, its a fact. He desires those to Worship Him in Spirit and in Truth not here
not there.
But you have to
be convinced in your mind too. We all give an account to God, my conscience
does not bother me a bit I'm at rest with what I understand about it.
Whatever day,
however ones sees it is between themselves and the Lord who Teaches them.
wopik
posted
October 30, 2004 08:38 PM
so is
"legalism" anything God tells us to do?
I guess foot
washing is "legalism" (Jn 13: 14-15).
I guess keeping
the Ten Commandments is "legalism" (Matt 19: 16-19).
I guess feeding
the hungry is "legalism" (Matt 25: 35-40).
I guess loving
your neighbour as yourself is "legalism" (Lev 19:18 / Matt 5:43,
22:39).
"For the
Son of man is Lord even of the Sabbath day" -- Matt 12:8.
Since He is Lord
of the Sabbath Day, the Sabbath Day must be the Lord's day.
Seth3
posted
October 30, 2004 09:52 PM
Wopic, Who are
you addressing? It would help when you insinuating legalist.
wopik
posted
October 30, 2004 10:40 PM
Christians are
also suppose to keep the seventh day Sabbath because we belong to and believe
in Christ --- "And if you be Christ's, then are you Abraham's seed, and
heir according to the promise" (Gal. 3:29).
Abraham is the
father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised..... (Romans
4:11).
The Church --
the called out ones -- is the "Israel of God" (Gal. 6:16 / Psalms
125:5).
"But he is
a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the
spirit, and not in the letter...." (Romans 2:25-29).
Christians are
grafted in among them [
Seth3
posted
October 30, 2004 11:16 PM
Paul said don't
let any man judge you in regards to holy days or Sabbaths. The Sabbath is the
Eternal day of Rest in type. But if you don't see this that’s fine worship on
Sunday and take it literal. God seeks those who worship in Spirit and in Truth.
He's not looking for a song money or a sermon He's looking for our hearts, our
bodies and selves given to Him in Truth and to honour Him in walking in faith
which worketh love. Love fulfils the law.
Bradleyc
posted
October 31, 2004 09:45 PM
Yes the Sabbath
is on the seventh day of the week and is in the 10 commandments but the Old
Testament has been done away with (Heb 10:9). Look at Acts 20:7 & I Cor.
16:2; Christians worship on Sunday
Seth3
posted
October 31, 2004 10:05 PM
The Seventh day
is THE SABBATH MADE FOR MAN the DAY is not a calendar day it was the Day Christ
Died and finished GODS WORK that those under the law labouring (seen as in
Egypt) might enter HIS REST and CEASE FROM THEIR LABOURS (UNDER THE LAW/Old
Covenant) and Enter into the New Covenant where we Worship Him in Spirit and in
Truth and in REST and in Assurance of our Salvation. The Sabbath MADE FOR MAN
NOT man FOR THE SABBATH.
Typed In Genesis
as a forethought of Christ's finished work and God resting from it, as in David
who sinned and God took away his sin BUT His first child DIED the SEVENTH DAY
(Picture of Christ).
The day the Lord
Has made a Sabbath Rest for His people.
Literally by the
letter- Go to a building on Sunday.
wopik
posted
October 31, 2004 11:55 PM
Hello Bradleyc
quote:
Look at Acts
20:7 & I Cor. 16:2; Christians worship on Sunday
Acts 20: 7,8
This text simply
says, "Upon the first day of the week, the disciples came together to
break bread....Paul preached...." There is here no mention of the
sacredness of this day or of the "Lord's Day". Nor is the meeting
itself referred to as anything other than a Church meeting. If every time a
body of believers meet on a day and a preacher preaches a sermon, that makes
the day holy, there would be numerous Sabbath/holy days.
Clearly, all
such days can not be Sabbath or holy days, as we would have several Sabbath
days in any given week. Some churches hold Sunday evening meetings and meetings
on Wednesday evenings. But neither of these is sacred beyond the act of worship
itself.
It seems clear
that the reason for gathering in Acts 20:7 was for fellowship and the breaking
or sharing of their food.
"Breaking
bread" is just eating a meal (Lk 24:30; Jn 21:12-13). The Disciples
"continuing DAILY with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from
house to house, did eat their meat with gladness". Here "breaking
bread" means eating a meal, Not on the first day of the week, but DAILY.
Today's English
Version, correctly translated from the inspired Greek text, says: "On
Saturday evening we gathered together for the fellowship meal. Paul spoke to
the people, and kept on speaking until midnight, since he was going to leave
the next day."
1 Corinthians
16: 1-2
This was a
normal working day, to collect and pack up the FRUIT which had been stored –
laid by – for the poor saints in
This speaks of a
collection for the poor saints at
To the Romans,
Paul says, "But now I go unto
"And when I
come, whomsoever you shall approve by your letters, THEM will I send to bring
your liberality unto
Apparently, it
was going to require several men to carry this collection, gathered and stored
up, to
BobRyan
posted
November 01, 2004 07:10 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Seth3:
There's
1. Are God's
commandments valid? Or should we, like the unbeliever – ignore them?
2. Did God
"ever" say "do on My Sabbath any thing that comes to mind – it
will be fine"?
3. Could Adam
have ignored the 7th day?
4. Isaiah 66
says that in the new heaven ALL MANKIND will come before God to Worship
"From Sabbath to Sabbath" -- what if you don't "feel like
it"? Can you rationalize "some other way" as being "just as
valid"?
How much
"editing" are we allowed?
Seth3
posted
November 01, 2004 09:58 AM
Bob, It still
does not address the fact that to one man one day is regarded as holier then
the other but to another one everyday alike (as Paul said). He also said, let
no man judge you according to holy days and Sabbaths, so the word cannot be
rightly divided in this assumption. There's a lot in the Old Testament but it
needs to be seen in the light of the New.
The Sabbath is a
Rest as I see it. A Spiritual rest I entered into. Your at liberty to regard
this day as Holier then others. I see every day in light of that day alone and
see it as a Spiritual Rest in Christ's finished work.
Paul already
knew that differing views would exist according to how we can each understand
it.
YOU regard one
day more holier then the other (I say good, enjoy that day as the Lord shows
YOU)
I see everyday
alike in His Sabbath Rest and am at liberty to regard it as such, as Paul said.
I don't judge
you for it, I once regarded it the same as you, but I don't any longer I see it
differently now and am at liberty to do so according to scripture.
wopik
posted
November 01, 2004 10:24 AM
quote:
the fact that to one man one day is regarded as holier then the other but to
another one everyday alike (as Paul said).
Hello Seth3, I
believe your statement is referring to Romans 14:1-6.
Paul was writing
to a mixed church of Jewish and gentile believers in
The passage in
question about days is in verses 5 and 6, immediately between references to
eating meat and vegetarianism in verses 2, 3 and 6.
There is no
biblical connection between Sabbath observance and vegetarianism, so these
verses have to be taken out of context to assume that Paul was referring to the
Sabbath.
Paul's advice in
1 Corinthians 8 was the same as his conclusion in Romans 14:15: Be especially
careful not to offend a fellow member, causing him to stumble or lose faith
over the issue of meats. What is clear is that the Roman members' reason for
avoiding meat was directly related to the days they were observing.
CGE:
Same objections as before to the idea of vegetarianism.
Otherwise from a quick look “What is clear is
that the Roman members' reason for avoiding meat was directly related to the
days they were observing”!
Seth3
posted
November 01, 2004 10:46 AM
I don't see it
literal in this either though Wopic. I see that Carnal babes in Christ can only
drink the milk of the word but have not yet developed Spiritual teeth to chew
the meat. So there is a natural understanding and a Spiritual understanding.
Like taking in what you can receive at the moment.
Yet at that time
there were those who sacrificed the bull offerings etc either in a
If the brother
who was weak in faith (doubting in his heart) over what he should eat or drink
because He's not fully washed in his mind would be embolden to eat what his
heart forbids him until he is certain by faith he can do so. Therefore when he
eats he heaps condemnation on himself because when he partook he did not do so
by faith, anything not of faith is sin. So because he doubted when he ate he
was not sure. He needs to be sure in himself concerning things. Fully convinced
in his own mind. That’s the
freakpastor
posted
November 01, 2004 11:32 AM
Do you enjoy
grace or live under the law?
freakpastor
posted
November 01, 2004 12:14 PM
Better Question
Wop,
How many people
have you led to Christ?
I've never met a
SDA who preaches anything but the Sabbath.
The Commandment
is to "Remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy".
Nowhere does it
say congregate and take part in formal worship.
So, if I
consider everyday Holy, which I do, it's up to you and SDA's of the earth to
point me in the right direction? You keep workin' on your great commission, and
leave the "real" great commission to the rest of us. we'll see where
the rewards fall in heaven. Or, you could get off this tired old argument, add
up the time you've spent on this site alone, and go witness to one lost soul
adding to the kingdom of our Saviour.
wopik
posted
November 01, 2004 06:49 PM
freakpastor,
well said. Though I dare say, if you converted someone to Christ and they did
not find it necessary to keep Sunday, you might be puzzled by their decision --
to say the least.
CGE:
Well said, wopik! Just shows what integral part and function the
Sabbath has in the life of the Faithful – in the lives of Freakpastor’s
‘Saved’!
I must confess I am a Calvinist and I have added
no lost soul to the Kingdom of our Saviour.
Don’t we call Him Saviour of lost souls?
Wopik:
It's not just
Sabbath-keepers who want to defend their day, Sunday-keepers feel as adamant
about their day (Sunday).
Quote:
Do
you enjoy grace or live under the law?
Colossians 2:16
is the first scripture to give a certain reference to the Sabbath and annual,
holy days.
Yet again we
have a problem of background. We evidently have a pagan philosophers group
exploiting the Church at
CGE:
Only stick to Paul’s own words, and you can’t go astray, Wopik!
Paul doesn’t write about “a pagan philosophers group exploiting
the Church at Colossae” – he writes of
this ‘group’
– the “world” in Paul’s own words – saying they “JUDGED” = “condemned” the
Church at Colossae. The implication of
this is vast! It presupposes UNITY WITHIN the Church and threatening danger and
condemnation from WITHOUT! The two ‘parties’ were opposing “worlds” – exclusive
“dominions”. It was no matter of a ‘Colossian heresy’, but of the
“principalities” and “kingdom of darkness” assaulting the Christian Faith and
the
The certain ascetic practices of pagan
philosophies mentioned in 2:8, 18-23, were not the Church’s, but belonged to these pagan
philosophies – and Paul unmistakably
distinguishes them as such in these lines. These humanistic and universalistic
ideologies of the “world” and of “the doctrines of men”, wanted the Christians
to return to paganism because they thus would obliterate Christ’s Church! They
went so far as to take the Church to court over their Sabbaths’ Feasting –
verse 14a – obviously contrary the “world’s” accepted norms and customs. Paul
consoles the Church, writing, Don’t mind them, they can’t wipe you out like
they intend to, because that’s exactly what Christ has done to them – verse 15!
Wopik:
Therefore, it is
not surprising that Paul says, "Let no one pass judgment on you in
questions of food and drink," since some people apparently were passing
judgment.
CGE:
Again, only stay with Paul’s words, and you won’t be misled to get
confused by the ‘translators’’ beguiling. Here is once more the arbitrary
words, “in
questions of”, inserted: "Let
no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink". No, Paul states: “Let no one judge / condemn you with regard to
(your) eating and drinking of Feast …”. The Believers’ feasting of their
Sabbaths was no ‘question’ – it was their direct, great and inexcusable offence in
the eyes of the “world’s”, “authorities”! That was what the Church got
subpoenaed for in “written law by ordinance”!
Wopik:
Of course,
eating and drinking are only a "shadow" (forerunner) of what is to
come, but the solid "body" (ultimate goal) belongs to Christ.
CGE:
Not only the “eating and drinking of feast” of the Church was the
‘shadow’ – “these things” which Paul refers to were all the things he mentions
in verse 16, and they include the Sabbaths. So, of
course, the Sabbath is in fact
a "shadow" of what is to come, but the solid "body"
(ultimate goal) belongs to Christ –
which, in this context, was the Church.
Since the “Substance belongs to Christ’s” Own, to His Church, what
the shadow of it will ‘forerun’ – what the “ultimate goal” of it will be – will be this very Body of the Church of
Christ’s! And that object, Paul in verse 19 enthusiastically and in contrast to
the world (verse 18) describes:– it is “the Body, increasing with the increase
of God”!
The Sabbaths shall reflect the vitality of the Church; they are a
sign of its Lordship – of its Head, and of “nourishment being ministered” to
the Body from this Head “by joints and bands” of service such as the Sabbaths –
the Body being “risen with Christ” (3:1).
Wopik:
Does that mean
we should no longer eat and drink? Hardly. Paul is showing that the ascetic
practices some wished to enforce were of little real substance; any eating or
abstinence is not the end but only a means to an end.
A Sabbath
observer could say the same about the Sabbath and holy days. They are – not
were – a shadow of what is to come; and therefore are still important and
necessary, just as eating and drinking are.
wopik
posted
November 01, 2004 07:02 PM
Seth3,
quote: That's the
well stated !
TC
posted
November 01, 2004 08:15 PM
quote: That
commandment is the seventh day Sabbath of the fourth commandment,
"Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy....for in six days the Lord made
heaven and earth, the sea..." (Exodus 20: 8-11).
Now in full.
Exodus 20
8 Remember the
Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt
thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the
seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any
work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant,
nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six
days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and
rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day, and
hallowed it.
When read in its
entirety, it just does not say what some people say it does. It simply says to
rest one day in six and the reason why – not rocket science folks.
Alcott
posted
November 01, 2004 09:07 PM
quote: It's not
just Sabbath-keepers who want to defend their day, Sunday-keepers feel as
adamant about their day (Sunday).
And those of us
who have no day to "defend" will also be adamant about someone
passing judgement on that in violation of Romans 14:5,6; even with someone who
"can't discuss this anymore," but was obviously lying when he said
that.
Seth3
posted
November 01, 2004 09:32 PM
Yes... Each man
gives an account of Himself to the Lord who judges.
BobRyan
posted
November 02, 2004 11:04 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Seth3:
[QB] Bob, It
still does not address the fact that to one man one day is regarded as holier
then the other but to another one everyday alike (as Paul said). He also said,
let no man judge you according to holy days and Sabbaths, so the word cannot be
rightly divided in this assumption. There's a lot in the Old Testament but it
needs to be seen in the light of the New.
Take a closer
look at Romans 14 (the verse you are not quoting but referencing) one man
observes one day ABOVE another while another OBSERVES EVERY Day.
#1. There was no
custom among Pagans or Jews for keeping EVERY day holy as a non-work day.
#2. There WAS a
practice of observing EVERY Holy Day (See Lev 23) or simply keeping ONE of
those Holy Days listed in God's Word ABOVE another.
You have
attempted to revise this "as if" there was any such thing as never
working and keeping all days of the week as a Sabbath Holy day of rest.
You are missing
the entire point of the argument concerning actual Biblical holy days addressed
in Romans 14.
Further – as we
read Isaiah 66 and Gen 2:3 God is not making the point "all mankind shall
NOT serve me SIX days but ONLY recognize my Lordship one day a week" as
you seem to imply. The Lordship and sovereignty of God is applicable to all
days as is his role as Saviour. But HIS sovereign appointment of His Seventh
day Sabbath "remains".
wopik
posted
November 02, 2004 11:28 AM
BobRyan,
quote: You are missing the entire point of the argument concerning actual Biblical
holy days addressed in Romans 14.
I don't think
the Jewish [God's] holydays are being discussed at all in Romans 14.
Paul seems to be
talking about certain days to fast or feast; and addressing people who are
vegetarians and those who are not (those who eat meat).
I don't see
God's holydays as an issue, here.
BobRyan
posted
November 02, 2004 11:52 AM
The point
remains.
The Christian of
the NT – had only the OT as their scripture. Indeed – it is the Word of God.
This was used by both Jews and Gentiles as "The Bible".
Obviously.
In "The
Bible" they only had ONE set of Holy Days – and God gave this to them in
Lev 23.
This is the
"really easy part".
In Romans 14 we
have the same issues addressed as we see in Acts and in 1 Corinthians.
Meat offered to
idols (The Jews were never told to be vegetarian but as Paul says in 1Cor
"I would never eat meat again if that causes my brother to stumble"
regarding meat offered to idols).
The issue is the
same in Romans. Same church, same century, same author, same problem confronted
by Jewish and Gentile Christians.
In the case of
Holy Days – it is "again the same issue as we see in Col 2. The list of
Holy Days where ONE observes ONE Holy Day ABOVE another while yet another man
OBSERVES ALL the Holy Days.
There never was
an issue of Jews or Gentiles observing NO Holy Days -- or the issue of Jews and
Gentiles never working because EVERY week day is a Holy Day.
People simply
"make that up" as it suits their needs – but the issue was never
raised by NT saints NOR do we find Paul mentioning the idea that some
Christians kept every week day Holy – as a day of sacred rest (LEV 23) so that
they never worked at all... NOR do we see any mention in all of scripture of
the people of God "keeping NO day Holy".
These obvious
facts my not fit what some on this board "need" to find in scripture
-- but they are the facts of scripture none-the-less.
FP may prefer
that these facts be buried in the depths of the sea and that we not
"notice them" – I am not one of those that would argue for such a
case.
Seth3
posted
November 02, 2004 01:34 PM
Bob says, But
HIS sovereign appointment of His Seventh day Sabbath "remains".
Seth3 replies,
Yes Bob in
relation to this day there REMAINS a SABBATH REST (A DAY SEEN AS THE SEVENTH)
which some have NOT ENTERED=REST and have not Ceased from their Labour
"under the Law" into the Faith of Christ and His finished work.
I see it
literally spiritual you see it literally natural. We are free to see it
differently and we must each give an account to the Lord who judges us.
Claudia_T
posted
November 02, 2004 02:50 PM
About Romans
Chapter 14:
Notice that the
entire chapter is on judging one another (Verses 4,10,13).
The issue here
is not over the seventh-day Sabbath, which was a part of the great moral law,
but over the yearly feast days of the ceremonial law.
Jewish
Christians were judging Gentile Christians for not observing them. Paul is
simply saying, "Do not judge each other. The ceremonial law is no longer
binding".
Claudia_T
posted
November 02, 2004 03:11 PM
Jesus said:
Mt:15:3: "Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your
tradition?" It is not acceptable to God for men and women to create their
own commandments, to change God's commandments.
If you are a
PROTESTANT, you need to know something. Protestants have always kept the true
Sabbath, which is the 7th day. God said that was the Sabbath.
WHAT MARTIN
LUTHER SAID ABOUT THE SABBATH:
"They
allege the Sabbath changed into Sunday, the Lord's day, contrary to the
Decalogue, as it appear, neither is there any example more boasted of than the
changing of the Sabbath day. Great, they say, is the power and authority of the
church, since it dispensed with one of the Ten Commandments." Martin
Luther,
Now read what
the Roman Catholic Church says about the Sunday Sabbath. It is crucial that
Protestants realize who they are aligning themselves with if they observe the
Sunday Sabbath. The Papacy! "And he shall speak great words against the
most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change
times and laws. " Daniel 7.25. :
"The Pope
is of so great authority and power that he can modify, explain, or interpret,
even divine laws....The Pope can modify divine law, since his power is not of
man but of God, and he acts as vicegerent of God upon earth with most ample
power of binding and loosing the sheep."-From the Prompta Bibliotheca
published in 1900 in
"The pope
has power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things,
even the precepts of Christ."-Decretal de Translat, Episcop. Cap.
The pope's will
stands for reason. He can dispense above the law, and of wrong make right by
correcting and changing laws."-Pope Nicholas, Dis. 96.
It is within the
inspired words "think to change times and laws" that we discover the
"mark of the beast."
The following
are all authentic quotations that will definitely answer our questions as to
what the "mark of the beast" is. Notice them carefully.
"The
Catholic Church for over one thousand years before the existence of a
Protestant, by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to
Sunday."-Catholic Mirror, Sept. 23, 1893.
You will notice
in this information that the Church declares that it was not God Who changed
the day from Saturday to Sunday but that they, the papists, were the ones who
made this change. The Sabbath was officially changed by the Papacy at the
Council of Laodacea on March 7, 364 A.D. That was 43 years after
"Question.-Have
you any other way of proving that the church has power to institute festivals
of precept?"
"Answer.-Had
she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern
religionists agree with her,-she could not have substituted the observance of
Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh
day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority."-Rev. Stephen
Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism, p. 174.
This quotation
emphasizes the fact that since the world accepts Sunday as a day of worship,
this acknowledges her supremacy.
"I have
repeatedly offered $1,000 to any one who can prove to me from the Bible alone
that I am bound to keep Sunday holy. There is no such law in the Bible. It is a
law of the holy Catholic Church alone. The Bible says, 'Remember that thou keep
holy the Sabbath day.' The Catholic Church says, 'No; by my divine power I
abolish the Sabbath day, and command you to keep holy the first day of the
week.' and lo! The entire civilized world bows down in reverent obedience to
the command of the holy Catholic Church. 'Priest Enright, C.S.S.R.,
There is no
question concerning the changing of Sabbath the seventh day to Sunday the first
day by the Papacy. You can readily see that there is nothing to be found in the
Bible about changing the day of worship from Saturday to Sunday. The Papacy is
correct in stating that they changed the day.
"In reply
to a letter of October 28, 1895, to Cardinal Gibbons, asking if the church
claimed the change of the Sabbath as her mark, the following was received: 'Of
course the Catholic church claims that the change was her act .... And the act
is a mark of her ecclesiastical power and authority in religious matters.'-C.F.
Thomas, Chancellor."
Sunday is the
mark of authority of the Roman Catholic Church. It is the "Mark of the
Beast." Of this there is absolutely no question, either in the Word of God
or in history.
Are Protestant
churches aware of these facts? Do they agree that there is no Scriptural
authority for Sunday keeping? Let us now turn to the various Protestant
churches and hear from them.
Presbyterian:
"The Christian Sabbath (Sunday) is not in the Scripture, and was not by
the primitive church called the Sabbath. 'Dwight's theology, vol. 4, p. 401.
Congregational:
"There is no command in the Bible requiring us to observe the first day of
the week as the Christian Sabbath." Fowler, Mode and Subjects of Baptism.
Lutheran:
"The observance of the Lord's day (Sunday) is founded not on any command
of God, but on the authority of the church."-"Augsburg Confession of
Faith," quoted in Cox's Sabbath Manual, p. 287.
Friends, don't
you think that when a church admits they are following a teaching not founded
on the Word of God, they ought to change and follow God's Word?
Episcopalian:
"The festival of Sunday, like all other festivals, was always only a human
ordinance, and it was far from the intentions of the apostles to establish a
divine command in this respect, far from them and from the early apostolic
church, to transfer the laws of the Sabbath to Sunday."-Neander, The
History of the Christian Religion and Church, p. 186, translated by Henry John
Rose, B.D. (Philadelphia: James M. Campbell & Co., 1843).
Here is another
church that admits it was not the apostles' intention that the day of worship
should ever be changed.
Methodist:
"it is true there is no positive command for infant baptism .... Nor is
there any for keeping holy the first day of the week."-Rev. Amos Binney,
Theological Compend, pp. 180, 181, 1902 ed.
Even our
Methodist friends admit that there is nothing in the Bible directing us to keep
Sunday holy. Let us turn to our friends the Baptists:
Dr. Edward T.
Hiscox, author of The Baptist Manual, before a group of ministers, made this
candid admission:
"There was
and is a commandment to keep holy the Sabbath day, but that Sabbath day was not
Sunday. It will be said, however, and with some show of triumph, that the
Sabbath was transferred from the seventh to the first day of the week, with all
its duties, privileges, and sanctions. Earnestly desiring information on this
subject, which I have studied for many years, I ask, Where can the record of
such a transaction be found? Not in the New Testament, absolutely not. There is
no Scriptural evidence of the change of the Sabbath institution from the
seventh to the first day of the week.
"Of
course," he continues, "I quite well know that Sunday did come into
use in early Christian history as a religious day, as we learn from the
Christian fathers and other sources. But what a pity that it comes branded with
the mark of Paganism, and christened with the name of the sun god, when adopted
and sanctioned by the papal apostasy, and bequeathed as a sacred legacy to
Protestantism!"-From a paper read before a New York Ministers' Conference,
held Nov. 13, 1893.
Here is one of
the leaders of a great Protestant denomination clearly admitting that Sunday
keeping is branded with the Mark of paganism.
Please go to my
website http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org
...and on the
homepage click on the link "Who or what is the ANTICHRIST?" and also
scroll down and click on the National Sunday Law graphic to download a short
free book to read about the Mark of the Beast and the Sabbath. I challenge all
of you to read these two documents.
THEN go to my
website:
http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org/romes-challenge.htm
and read
"Rome's Challenge" to Protestants.... you will be amazed at how the
Roman Catholic Church ridicules Protestants for bowing down the the Catholic
Church by keeping the Sunday Sabbath.
Claudia_T
posted
November 02, 2004 03:32 PM
Just to add to
my first comment about the moral law and the ceremonial law...
Christians need
to realize there were two different laws, the moral law (ten commandments) and
the ceremonial law, or Moses' Law, which had to do with sacrifices and rituals
and Sabbaths that pointed forward to the sacrifice of Jesus and ended at the
cross. This ceremonial law was temporary.
Moses law was
called "the law of Moses" Luke 2:22 but God's Law was called
"The Law of the Lord" Isaiah 5:24.
Moses' law was
contained in ordinances... Ephesians 2:15. But God's Law was called the Royal
Law James 2:8.
Moses' Law was
written in a BOOK 2 Chronicles 35:12. But God's Law was written by the finger
of God on stone Exodus 31:18;32:16.
Moses' law was
placed IN THE SIDE OF the
Moses' law ended
at the cross Ephesians 2:15 but God's Law stands forever Luke 16:17.
The
misunderstanding of these two laws is what causes the confusion about the Ten
Commandment Law.
As I said before,
Romans chapter 14 is referring to the CEREMONIAL LAW... Colossians 2:14-17 also
refers to the ceremonial law SABBATHS (plural) which were done away at the
cross. These Sabbaths were a "shadow of things to come" and does not
refer to the Seventh Day Sabbath of the Moral Law (10 Commandments).
There were 7
yearly "holy days" or holidays, in ancient
These Sabbaths
all foreshadowed, or pointed to the cross and ended at the cross. God's Sabbath
was made before sin ever even entered the earth, at creation, and therefore
could foreshadow nothing about deliverance from sin.
Genesis 2:
1: Thus the
heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2: And on the
seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh
day from all his work which he had made.
3: And God
blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested
from all his work which God created and made.
CGE:
posted
November 02, 2004 08:42 PM
[QUOTE] Originally posted by danrusdad:
[QB] Rom 14:4 Rom 14:6 He who observes the day,
observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he
does not observe it...[QE]
Read the Greek (Nestle) – Some Translations have it right, and
omit 14:6b, "he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not
observe it". Everybody observed the "days" Paul wrote of; some
believers only regarded some of the days above others of the days. Christians
may still have observed the Passover on a yearly basis, which had days more
important than other days observed.
But Paul stresses that what made things lob-sided wasn't the
"days" observed, but the foods OF these days. He says food and drink
do not constitute God's kingdom. Therefore no one was in the wrong with
observing days, but they all were in the wrong with their judging spirit that
made of food a measuring-stick of how good a Christian you are. The Jews till
today attach tremendous importance to the food-aspects of the Passover season.
Then if one omit 14b Paul in fact says it is the
"STRONG" in the Christian Faith "who observes the day to the
Lord" . And he says the strong should support the "weak" and be
an example for them.
Paul in Ro.14 has nothing against the keeping of religious days
whatsoever – he has it against a judging spirit – one thinking HE HIMSELF is
better than another – not "days" better than other "days"!
Gerhard
Ebersöhn
posted
November 02, 2004 09:00 PM
quote: Originally posted by Seth3:
Bob
says, But HIS sovereign appointment of His Seventh day Sabbath
"remains".
Seth3
replies, Yes Bob in relation to this day there REMAINS a SABBATH REST (A DAY
SEEN AS THE SEVENTH) which some have NOT ENTERED=REST and have not Ceased from
their Labour "under the Law" into the Faith of Christ and His
finished work. I see it literally spiritual you see it literally natural. We
are free to see it differently and we must each give an account to the Lord who
judges us.
Really Seth3, you are quibbling! Christ is our Judge though,
therefore what a comfort!
But for Bob and you, this question:
Why the Sabbath cannot be the Lord's Day?
Here's a challenge for every one. The Sabbath is the Lord's Day by
feat of resurrection from the dead "IN SABBATH'S-time the day in full
splendour towards the First Day of the week", Mt.28:1 as literal as it
could and as true to essence as is possible!
If not Jesus rose from the grave on the Sabbath, the Sabbath
(Seventh Day) cannot be the Lord's Day. Sunday could NEVER be the Lord's Day
because of it, God never "Thus spoke" as "God spake concerning
the Seventh Day" -Hb.4:4-5. In this eschatological WORD of God – Jesus
Christ and He in resurrection from the dead – the creation of God had been
finished (since the beginning). That is ALL, and nothing else, that gave the
'creation-Sabbath', meaning – its Christian meaning.
Gerhard
Ebersöhn
posted
November 02, 2004 09:16 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Seth3:
Wopic,
In Genesis when it shows that on the Seventh Day God rested. This is a
forethought a reflection reflecting the purpose of Gods heart "into the
future" of what God was desiring to do. what this "Seventh Day"
it represented (in Spiritual words though a very present reality)is what would
be realized in Christ (Through the Cross=Wisdom and Power of God). It was a
Shadow of the good things to come not the Realities themselves the scriptures
say.
God
hid Christ in His FOREKNOWLEDGE (Before Christ came) showing through various
ways His purpose in Christ WHO IS the TRUTH of the Old Testament. One Hides Him
and reflects Him the Other (Christ) validates what was written by God
beforehand concerning Him.
The
Seventh day is holy because of WHO Christ IS and What God purposed on that Day.
If you look God is "WORKING" with Christ in the gospels. He can't
work if He rested from ALL His work. His Work was not done it pointed TO the
Work of Christ on the Cross. When Jesus Said, "It is Finished" and
yielded up His Spirit. Gods work at that point is DONE. He laid the foundation
STONE ""RIGHT THERE"". IN "THE BEGINNING" (Is IN
CHRIST) was THE WORD (SPIRIT) and THE WORD (SPIRIT) WAS GOD (anyone who has
seen me has seen the Father).He was the EXACT REPRESENTATION OF THE FATHER (We
are ONE)
Christ
in Revelation says, "I am "THE BEGINNING" (Christ defines it)
and THE END" All things are SUMMED UP in Christ.
He
is the FIRST and the LAST
The
FIRST day is "Light" the LAST day the Light of the world as leaving
the world (Seen as a MIST WENT UP on the Seventh Day). On Earth as the YIELDING
UP of HIS SPIRIT.
This
is seen in the Seventh Day itself when you see, "A MIST WENT UP" and
watered the surface of the ground.
God
is showing this then showing His pouring out His Spirit on all flesh (WATERING
THE WHOLE SURFACE OF THE GROUND) This is the RAIN (BLESSING) of God.
This
is a forethought in Gods heart as purposed in Christ.
Simply
arguing over Saturday or Sunday misses such immense beauty of the Cross of
Jesus Christ. We worship in Spirit and in Truth for God seeks those who worship
Him in this way.
The
Work of God is Christ Crucified= It is FINISHED= Come unto me and find REST for
your souls. Don't miss entering into this blessed Rest He hath prepared for
you. As Mary at His feet sat there and learned of Him, She chose the BEST PART
and He said, it shall not be taken from her. That's Beautiful...
Before I answer, I would exclude the following: "This
is seen in the Seventh Day itself when you see, "A MIST WENT UP" and
watered the surface of the ground.
God
is showing this then showing His pouring out His Spirit on all flesh (WATERING
THE WHOLE SURFACE OF THE GROUND) This is the RAIN (BLESSING) of God" ...
– which I think is shear nonsense (allegory) not worth comment.
Now Seth3, I appreciate what you write here, but you should follow
through your own thinking : Where, ultimately, is the End or Fulfilment of all
the works of God? Not in the death of Christ, but in the resurrection of Him
from the dead. This is absolutely clear from the language of Eph.1:19f. If this
is so – and it is so – then your arguments here quoted should apply to Christ
in His resurrection from the dead, and that happened, precisely, "In the
Sabbath's fullness being the very light (of day) towards the First Day of the
week" – Mt.28:1
Gerhard
Ebersöhn
posted
November 02, 2004 09:34 PM
quote: Originally posted by Claudia_T:
Just
to add to my first comment about the moral law and the ceremonial law...
Christians
need to realize there were two different laws, the moral law (ten commandments)
and the ceremonial law, or Moses' Law, which had to do with sacrifices and
rituals and Sabbaths that pointed forward to the sacrifice of Jesus and ended
at the cross. This ceremonial law was temporary. QE
This is total artificial dividing of "Law".
The Ten Commandments were just as temporary as the 'ceremonial'
Law. Why was it written on stones for? To demonstrate its temporariness.
Scarcely came Moses from the mount or it was broken. And when after the Exodus,
God changed it and specifically the Fourth Commandment – leaving out the
'creation'-motive and substituting it with the 'redemption'-motive. Then when
Jesus came, He made many changes to the Law, (both 'moral' and 'ceremonial').
In the end He being the Law of God Himself, was nailed to the cross, only to
rise again, the NEW and this time, Eternal Law of God. That's why the Christian
should keep the Sabbath for the sake of Jesus, because He rose from the dead
and "in it" became both the End of God's creation as its New
Beginning. All in Christ, through Him, and for His sake.
Claudia_T
posted
November 03, 2004 05:48 PM
Gerhard,
Maybe this will
help:
go here:
http://www.present-truth.org/br/brcontents.htm
scroll down to:
Section 8 – THE
LAW OF GOD
73. The Two Laws
74. The End of
the Law
wopik
posted
November 04, 2004 11:56 AM
BobRyan,
correct. The Ten Commandments – all TEN – are here to stay.
Even in
Revelation, the end-time Church is made up of the saints who keep the
commandments of God (Rev 14:12; 12:17) – all TEN.
quote:
I believe that
ALL days belong to God! Every day is the Lord's.
ISAIAH 56: 1-7 –
this chapter is interesting because Isaiah puts these verses in a NT time
setting, by saying: "THUS SAITH THE LORD, 'Keep judgment, and do justice;
for MY SALVATION IS NEAR TO COME......' "
When does the
LORD'S salvation come? "....Now is come salvation, and strength, and the
kingdom of our God and the power of His Christ....." (Rev 12:10) -- at
Jesus' return.
Even as
salvation nears, those GENTILES who "join themselves to the LORD"
(vs2,6; 1Cor 6:17 KJV) and keep the Sabbath (vs2,6) will be taken to the holy
mountain of the LORD, for his house shall be called a house of prayer for ALL
PEOPLE (vs7).
MANY NATIONS
shall "join themselves to the LORD" and be my people – Zechariah
2:11; Jeremiah 50:5.
Gerhard
Ebersöhn
posted
November 04, 2004 06:25 PM
quote: Originally posted by Claudia_T:
Gerhard,
Maybe this will help: go here: http://www.present-truth.org/br/brcontents.htm,
scroll down to: Section 8 – THE LAW OF GOD ...
Claudia, The SDA's are ever prepared to "help", but never to be helped. They claim themselves to be the
Church of the 7th Letter which John wrote to the Laodaceans, but refuse to
admit they are poor in spiritual / biblical knowledge and understanding. I know
every bit of the doctrines promoted through the website you referred to, and
assure you there's about nothing in it of 'substance' for the seeker after
Gospel Truth. The Sabbath-doctrine in there is most disappointing. Again the
SDA's and their prophetess promised great improvements and "more
light" on the subject of the Sabbath-truth, yet consistently and the later
the more vehemently resist to development or improvement on it. They have been
presented with one specific adjustment on the Sabbath-doctrine now for about
twenty years, but it has so successfully been hushed that scarcely any ordinary
member would be able to obtain information about it. Then the mainstream folk
are also so indoctrinated they point blank refuse to hear – even though for
just a minute. And that 'adjustment' is the basic truth of the Gospel that
lends all worth to the Sabbath and to Sabbath-doctrine, namely, the Divine fact
of Jesus' resurrection "ON the Sabbath" (and NOT, "ON the First
Day of the week".
It was upon this principle truth that Paul based his entire
argumentation in Colossians 2:16-17 in favour of the Church and against its
attacker the 'world'. Which says that Paul speaks of Sabbaths here, being
observed by the Church and condemned by the 'world'. What a 'pro' for the
Sabbath! But the SDA's? They are first and foremost to reject and then to deny
it!
wopik
posted
November 04, 2004 06:34 PM
FROM SABBATH TO
SUNDAY:
A HISTORICAL
INVESTIGATION OF THE RISE OF SUNDAY OBSERVANCE IN EARLY CHRISTIANITY
http://www2.andrews.edu/~samuele/books/Sabbath_to_sunday/3.html
Gerhard
Ebersöhn
posted
November 04, 2004 06:54 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Seth3:
Bob
says, But HIS sovereign appointment of His Seventh day Sabbath
"remains".
Seth3
replies,
Yes
Bob in relation to this day there REMAINS a SABBATH REST (A DAY SEEN AS THE
SEVENTH) which some have NOT ENTERED=REST and have not Ceased from their Labour
"under the Law" into the Faith of Christ and His finished work.
I
see it literally spiritual you see it literally natural. We are free to see it
differently and we must each give an account to the Lord who judges us.
Dear Seth3,
Are we 'free' to see it any which way we like? I think we are free to see it
Scripturally. One thing is Scripturally sure, that the Bible itself, knows NO
"literally spiritual" 'Sabbath'; the Bible doesn't know the concept of 'the
eighth day', and it doesn't know the whim of a 'seventh period' or anything of
the kind. The Bible has "literally natural" Sabbaths – 'ceremonial' or the 'creation'- Sabbath. And
they ALL, in Christ and through Christ, came to fulfilment in this ONE EVENT:
His resurrection from the dead "In Sabbath's-time" – that is, in
literally natural Sabbath Day's-time, for it is written: "In the Sabbath's
fullness of light's splendour", when descended an angel and opened the
grave of Jesus who at that moment had risen from the dead. OF THIS THE
BIBLE-SABBATHS SPOKE AND PROMISED THROUGH ALL THE MILLENNIA SINCE CREATION TO
CHRIST. The First Day of the week has had NOTHING OF THIS.
Johnv
posted November 04, 2004 06:56 PM
Seven
pages... is the "Sunday" issue not a dead horse that has been
thoroughly beaten?
Gerhard Ebersöhn
posted November 04, 2004 07:11 PM
quote: Originally posted by Johnv:
Seven
pages... is the "Sunday" issue not a dead horse that has been
thoroughly beaten?
Not at all, for as long as that beaten horse lives and thrives on
the claimed fact of the resurrection of LIFE from the dead "on the First
Day of the week", giving it the only and every reason for being the
Christian day of Worship-Rest.
Unless and until the LIE of this claim for Sunday stays alive, the
Sabbath will stay deprived and robbed of its very life-principle – God's ending
and finishing and completing and perfecting of His creation and redemption
"ON THE SEVENTH DAY" – "thus spoken" of – Hb.4:4, and
awaited from the beginning when it "was made" – Mk.2:27 – yet
ridiculed through "unbelief" and disobedience.
Johnv
posted
November 04, 2004 07:17 PM
Okay, show me in
scripture where the day we refer to as Saturday is the actual day of the
scriptural "seventh day". While you're at it, show me where the
Sabbath Day that the OT Jews observed was the actual day of the genesis 1
"seventh day".
You won't find
it. Do you know why? Because people began observing the seven day calendar week
long after Genesis 1. The last day of the week REPRESENTS the seventh day of
Genesis 1, and that's all. Making this representational observance into more
that it is comes from a heart of legalism, which perverts scripture in intent
and message.
Gerhard
Ebersöhn
posted
November 04, 2004 07:19 PM
quote: Originally posted by Johnv:
Seven
pages... is the "Sunday" issue not a dead horse that has been
thoroughly beaten?
Truly the Sabbath had been beaten to death with the same stick –
the "LAW"!
Gerhard
Ebersöhn
posted
November 04, 2004 07:29 PM
quote: Originally posted by Johnv:
Okay,
show me in scripture where the day we refer to as Saturday is the actual day of
the scriptural "seventh day". While you're at it, show me where the
Sabbath Day that the OT Jews observed was the actual day of the genesis 1
"seventh day".
You
won't find it. Do you know why? Because people began observing the seven day
calendar week long after Genesis 1. The last day of the week REPRESENTS the
seventh day of Genesis 1, and that's all. Making this representational
observance into more that it is comes from a heart of legalism, which perverts
scripture in intent and message. QE
I as everybody else
have only one resource that leads back to the beginnings of God's creation, and
that is its Creator, who happened to come and visit us here on earth two
thousand years ago, and He had no doubts about which day was the Seventh Day of
the week! Then after He had left, His Church became the guardian of that Day,
and God's own jealousy – His providential CARE for this Day – for HE of course
pronounced Himself "Lord of the Sabbath Day".
Now also since
nobody ever has a problem with knowing which day is the First Day of (creation)
week, how come they have difficulty with knowing which day is the Seventh Day
of creation week,? That to me sounds rather stupid.
Gerhard
Ebersöhn
posted
November 04, 2004 07:39 PM
quote: Originally posted by Johnv:
Okay,
show me in scripture where the day we refer to as Saturday is the actual day of
the scriptural "seventh day". While you're at it, show me where the
Sabbath Day that the OT Jews observed was the actual day of the genesis 1
"seventh day".
You
won't find it. Do you know why? Because people began observing the seven day
calendar week long after Genesis 1. The last day of the week REPRESENTS the
seventh day of Genesis 1, and that's all. Making this representational
observance into more that it is comes from a heart of legalism, which perverts
scripture in intent and message.
And then I could answer with your own conclusion: You won't find
it. Do you know why? Because people began observing the seven day calendar week
long after Genesis 1. They had to have known all along! And therefore the last
day of the week REPRESENTS the seventh day of Genesis 1, and that's a fact.
Making this representational observance into more than it is – a non-entity –
comes from a heart of legalism, which perverts scripture in intent and message.
(A good definition of 'legalism'!)
Gerhard
Ebersöhn
posted
November 04, 2004 07:52 PM
But in a more serious strain, dear Johnv,
God Tri-Une so well knew which day was the Seventh Day Sabbath
"concerning the which He spake in this way: God on the Seventh Day rested
from ALL His works" (Hb4:4-5), that he DESTINED or "appointed"
IT, and no other day, for "the third day ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES"
(1Cor.5): THAT IT HAD TO BE THE DAY OF JESUS' RESURRECTION! It was the third
day of the Passover, that had to be the Sabbath, that had to be the Day of the
First Sheaf Wave Offering "Before the LORD". On the Sabbath it had to
be that Christ would appear before the throne of His Father in heavenly spheres
through the exaltation of Him in resurrection from the dead. For the reality
and truth of THIS, Christ's Body the Church would every Sabbath Day worship Him
as Lord and Saviour Head and King.
Johnv
posted
November 04, 2004 07:52 PM
quote: Originally posted by Gerhard
Ebersöhn:
for HE of course pronounced Himself "Lord of the Sabbath
Day".
Ahhh, yes, the
same Lord who is the Lord of every day. The same Lord who proclaimed that the
Sabbath was made for man, and not man for it. That, plus the fact that we're
told in the epistles that we're not to allow anyone to judge us in how we keep
the Sabbath. Add to that the fact that the day we call Saturday today is not
the same day as the seventh day of the week then. The calendar has been shifted
and altered, abandoned and re-instituted, several times since then.
quote:
Now also since nobody ever has a problem with knowing which day is
the First Day of (creation) week, how come they have difficulty with knowing
which day is the Seventh Day? That to me sounds rather stupid.
For the same
reason that we don't know which day of our week corresponds to the actual first
day, and the observance of the first day is a representation, and nothing more,
of the first day.
quote:
... show me in scripture where the day we refer to as Saturday is
NOT the actual scriptural "seventh day"; show me where the Sabbath
Day that the OT Jews observed was NOT the actual day of the genesis 1
"seventh day".
Sorry, but
that's the same mentality of argument that the KJVOists use to spew their
manmade doctrine. Like KJVOism, the day-of-week doctrine is also a false
doctrine. It's not biblically supportable. Like the KJVOists, it is up to YOU
to show scriptural proof for your claim, and, lacking scriptural support, you
haven't a scriptural leg to stand on, lest you add to scripture.
Gerhard
Ebersöhn
posted
November 04, 2004 08:31 PM
quote: Originally posted by Johnv:
Ahhh, yes, the same Lord who is the
Lord of every day. The same Lord who proclaimed that the Sabbath was made for
man, and not man for it.
You're talking in circles; all the while you pre-suppose a
specific day, the Sabbath!
[QUOTE] That,
plus the fact that we're told in the epistles that we're not to allow anyone to
judge us in how we keep the Sabbath.
Now who would judge another person if that other person wasn't
keeping a specific day 'the Sabbath'- in this case of course the Seventh Day of
the week as we all know it?
Besides, dear Johnv, Paul then clearly SUPPORTS the Church here in
her keeping of the Sabbath Days AGAINST the 'world' that denounced and judged
her for doing so! Surely no reason or instruction that the Christian should not
observe the Sabbath!
[QUOTE] Add
to that the fact that the day we call Saturday today is not the same day as the
seventh day of the week then. The calendar has been shifted and altered,
abandoned and re-instituted, several times since then.
Sorry to sound rude, dear Johnv, but with this remark of yours you
show gross ignorance. Historical facts do not support one word of yours.
[QUOTE][QUOTE]...
that's the same mentality of arguement that the KJVOists ...
Again sorry to disappoint you, I'm not a 'KJVOist'. I like the KJV
very much though, and has the greatest respect for it, for the one reason that
it at least tries to be true to the Greek. You know that Tyndale – whose
Translation formed the basis for the KJV – said that may his part in Christ be
taken away if he translated one word against his conscience.
[QUOTE] ...
the day-of-week doctrine is also a false doctrine. It's not biblically
supportable. Like the KJVOists, it is up to YOU to show scriptural proof for
your claim, and, lacking scriptural support, you haven't a scriptural leg to
stand on, lest you add to scripture.
The best way of defence is attack. A fighting dog will bite his
own master if interfered with. Yes, maybe the doctrine of the
Seventh-day-of-the-week-doctrine is a false doctrine, but the Day cannot be
false, "for GOD thus concerning (it) spoke" – I shall always
remember. And remember I shall always that God thus concerning the GOSPEL of
Jesus Christ, "concerning the Seventh Day spoke". He in fact
"spoke" in and through and by Jesus Christ the Living Person and
personal Saviour of every Elect: "concerning the Seventh Day". How in
particular: As in verses 8 and 10 of Hebrews 4 specifically: through and by and
in Jesus Christ in resurrection from the dead, "THUS" referring to
"having entered into His Own Rest as God from His", and, "If
Jesus had given them rest", then, "THEREFORE there remains (valid) a
keeping of the Sabbath Day for the People of God". Jesus BECAME,
"Lord of the Sabbath Day indeed" by having risen from the dead. No
other way? THAT'S WHY, dear friend, the Church kept on keeping the Sabbath but
for this absolutely NEW reason.
That is my "scriptural
support" and "leg to stand on" as far as the Sabbath is concerned. If you regarded it as
"adding to the
scriptures", I would not be
able to prevent.
Seth3
posted
November 04, 2004 08:43 PM
Gerhard Ebersöhn says,
Now Seth3, I appreciate what you write here, but you should follow
through your own thinking : Where, ultimately, is the End or Fulfilment of all
the works of God? Not in the death of Christ, but in the resurrection of Him
from the dead. This is absolutely clear from the language of Eph.1:19f. If this
is so – and it is so – then your arguments here quoted should apply to Christ
in His resurrection from the dead, and that happened, precisely "In the
Sabbath's fullness being the very light (of day) towards the First Day of the
week" – Mt.28:1
Seth3
Replies,
Absolutely
that's why He is the BEGINNING and THE END HE IS THE FIRST AND THE LAST THE
ROOT AND THE OFFSPRING.
First and
Seventh both seen in the gospels as in Christ. Us in Him and Him in us. The
True Light shining in our hearts is seen even in Genesis' first day.
So I see the
Cross of Christ(Seventh day =Its finished) which is God resting from His work.
Believing the Word is in our hearts I believe is the making of all things new
until the day dawns within. God thus works in hearts through faith in His work.
Walking in the Light(Spirit) of the first day I am walking in the Liberty of
Christ.
Actually not
quibbling just sharing as I see it. We both have the completed book its God who
teaches and that's how He is showing me this as He is showing you yours right?
Gerhard
Ebersöhn
posted
November 05, 2004 03:37 PM
quote: Originally posted by wopik:
FROM SABBATH TO SUNDAY:
A HISTORICAL INVESTIGATION OF THE
RISE OF SUNDAY OBSERVANCE IN EARLY CHRISTIANITY
http://www2.andrews.edu/~samuele/books/Sabbath_to_sunday/3.html
Dear Wopik,
By now I almost know that book (and how many others of the same
author) by heart. I disagree with Bacchiocchi mainly with regard to his stance
that Matthew uses the morning as day's beginning. He point blank refuses to
answer my criticism. Then I also disagree with him as to the origin of Sunday
observance – which he maintains resulted from various factors active during the
late second to about the fourth century. I say, no, Sunday
"observation" – mark the word – as early as when Paul wrote to the
Galatians was rife in the pagan world, and only in the late second century
successfully convinced the Christian writer Justin Martyr. Bacchiocchi's main
defect in Sabbath-doctrine is obvious: that he argues all Jesus' miracles as
boosting the Sabbath, one could say; but stops dead before he would admit the
greatest of all Jesus' miracles, – His resurrection from the dead – to be of
value for the Sabbath Day.
Gerhard
Ebersöhn
posted
November 05, 2004 10:24 PM
quote:
Seth3 Replies, etc.
I at first said liked your 'eschatology' before having given more
attention. Now I must say I much more dislike your allegory. Frankly, I don't
believe you know what you are saying yourself. You have NO historicity left,
and your reasoning in the end makes of your inner experiences your Christ.
wopik
posted
November 06, 2004 04:09 AM
"we can
indicate with reasons that the justification for Sunday on the basis of the
resurrection of Jesus, does not appear until the second century and even then
very timidly" – C. S. Mosna, Storia della domenica, p. 357; W. Rordorf,
Sabbath (texts), p. xvi.
The appearance
by the
CGE:
... "since it took place after
a day of rest (John 21:1-3)" ...
Pure surmising and nothing to support the idea!
Seth3
posted
November 06, 2004 08:40 AM
Gerhard says,
I at first said I liked your 'eschatology' before having given
more attention. Now I must say I much more dislike your allegory. Frankly, I
don't believe you know what you are saying yourself. You have NO historicity
left, and your reasoning in the end makes of your inner experiences your
Christ.
Seth3 replies,
I have believed
what it says and now I'm hopefully going to walk in the fulfilment of all that
is written by the Spirit. All things are SUMMED UP IN CHRIST, Yet* it's Christ
IN US our hope of Glory. Entering the Seventh Day Rest (Cross of Christ) into
the First Day The True Light of all men shed abroad in our hearts. I'll take
the reality within the History over the just the History alone any day. Or
rather the inner fulfilment of Spirit and Life. Is this not what we are meant
to walk in?
Let there be
(History) and there WAS (Reality)
wopik
posted
November 06, 2004 12:59 PM
BobRyan,
quote:
In
the end – the question of the 4th commandment comes down to the Ten
Commandments. What did you do with them? Abolish them?
Quite the
opposite.
Faith in JESUS
establishes the Law (Rom 3:31).
The most
important New Testament statement on the Sabbath was spoken by Jesus Christ as
quoted in Mark 2:27-28. Jesus not only affirms the Sabbath command, He also
instructs us about its purpose.
In the Hebrew,
Genesis 2:2 literally says that God "Sabbathed"-ceased or rested – on
the seventh day from all His work.
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=07673&version=kjv
BobRyan
posted
November 07, 2004 10:07 PM
Indeed – God
never commands rebellion against His authority, His Government or His Laws.
Christ said
"IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments".
And as you point
out – Paul argues in Romans 3:31 "We do NOT abolish the Law of God by our
faith rather we Establish the Law".
It is obedience
and harmony with God that is the result of the Gospel work on the heart – not
rebellion against Him.
This is why
James can say "So live and act as those who are to be judged BY the Law of
Liberty" after giving a few examples.
wopik
posted
November 07, 2004 11:35 PM
BobRyan, Well
stated.
I came across
this web site about the Sabbath a few days ago.
You may or may
not agree with it, but it sure says things in a whole different way --
http://intercontinentalcog.org/ICGCC/Lesson_Seven.shtml
Seth3
posted
November 07, 2004 11:45 PM
Christ's
commandments are to walk in love. Expressed by...
FORGIVE and YOU
WILL BE FORGIVEN.
JUDGE NOT LEST
YOU BE JUDGED.
If you love me
you will Keep my commandments.
No man will be
justified by the law.
No one made
perfect by the law
Through the law
comes the Knowledge of Sin
Walk in Christ
commands being obedient to Him you will walk in love because your walking in
the MERCY God desires Not the sacrifice He does not.
Therefore if we
want forgiveness? Then show others forgiveness by forgiving them.
Why say ye
"Lord, Lord and not do what I say"?
The Law of Love
wopik
posted
November 08, 2004 12:36 AM
BobRyan,
quote:
And
as you point out – Paul argues in Romans 3:31 "We do NOT abolish the Law
of God by our faith rather we Establish the Law".
A clear example
of this is Moses: "Through FAITH he kept the Passover" (Hebrews
11:28).
Paul told the
Corinthians to do the same (1 Cor. 5:7-8) – "Christ our Passover is
sacrificed for us, therefore, let us keep the feast."
steaver
posted
November 08, 2004 09:56 PM
This topic seems
to be of great importance to some.
I am curious as
to why it is so important?
I have a
question. I am a born again believer in Jesus Christ. I have received Him as my
Lord and Saviour. If I do not observe the "correct" Sabbath Day or
any Sabbath Day, will I NOT be saved?
wopik
posted
November 09, 2004 05:17 PM
Hello, steaver
from central Pa
quote:
If I do not observe the "correct" Sabbath Day or any Sabbath Day,
will I NOT be saved?
Who gets saved
is obviously God's decision.
I just like
discussing what's actually in the Bible, and comparing it to what people THINK
is in the Bible. I don't see Sunday as a day of worshipping God – IN THE BIBLE.
And I just like to know where people get this Sunday idea from.
steaver
posted
November 10, 2004 11:40 AM
quote:
I just like to know where people get this Sunday idea from.
Probably
just tradition. I have heard of different reasonings.
The important
thing is that worship is done in every part of our being and everyday of the
week in Christ.
quote:
I just like discussing what's actually in the Bible, and comparing it to what
people THINK is in the Bible.
That is very
admirable! We all know how much misguided doctrine is floating around out
there.
I had a
discussion one time with a SDA who insisted that anyone NOT worshiping on
Saturday would be eternally condemned. Also anyone who was caught eating pork!
Yet in their statement of faith they declared that salvation was through faith
alone in Jesus Christ. When I challenged them on this they could not give an
answer.
Gerhard
Ebersöhn
posted
November 10, 2004 01:17 PM
Why's the subject so important to some? Why, because of what Jesus
did! Have any doubts? Then go read Hebrews 4, and Colossians 2, and Mark 2, and
a lot more. The Subject is so important Jesus thought it necessary to declare
His Lordship of it! What did He see in it to be that important that it should
go under His guardianship and authority? Why did God of old call the subject
His Holy? You know He only called two things His Holy: His Holy One His Son,
and this subject, this Seventh Day. Yea in fact, "God concerning the
Seventh Day thus spoke: And God the Seventh Day from all His works
rested"! Here is why: Because God in Jesus Christ through the
"exceeding greatness of His power" FINISHED, and PERFECTED, all His
creation – all his works – through the very redemption of it from eternal
oblivion through and "when he raised Christ from the dead". If you
can see why Ephesians 1:19f is a Sabbath's-Scripture, you will know why this
subject is so important to some.
But lastly, it is so important because without the shadow, there
could scarcely be any "Body" could there? And the Body, without the
Head being its light, could scarcely throw the shadow, could it? In ordinary
language: The Church of Jesus Christ would not have been, were there no Day of and
for its worship and rest. Where would you see the Believers obey Christ by
WITNESSING of Him if they never assembled as the Body that is of Christ's own –
of His Elect – had it not been for the Day of Worship Rest of this Body? How
would it have proclaimed and made disciples and have baptised the nations in
the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, had not GOD
HIMSELF "appointed a day" – the Seventh Day – for it?
We, Christians, confess God the Father, then we cannot but go on
and confess, "and in the Son"; then we cannot but go on and confess:
"and in the Holy Spirit"; and then we cannot help to go and confess:
and in the forgiveness of sin". Then we cannot stop here, and say that's
it, I – ME – am saved, so the devil for the rest. No, we once more must go on
and confess: I believe in the Church". But dear friend, JUST AS IMPOSSIBLE
is it to stop here, for we are forced by sheer reality – existentiality –
Christian existentiality, and also by God's own and personal providence, and go
on and confess: THEREFORE, I also believe the Sabbath Day for all I have before
confessed; and then also for I – and the Church as ONE, shall confess, believe,
and proclaim for as long as we mortals are this side of eternity: "Thy
Will be done".
Now short and sweet – or bitter for some – there is no such will
of God "THUS CONCERNING", Sunday.
But it doesn't stop there, however uncomfortable, however painful,
however distasteful even to our pallet, for this single reason: God is not
honoured with idolatry, with lying, with false preaching and prophesying –
which all are the core and substance and very life-nerve of Sunday observance.
And each and every time God's Sabbath Day is assaulted, this lying idolatry is
going on
Vain-glorying in every 'Sabbath'-principle of the Scriptures!
Disgusting, and more disgusting OUR – the Church's – OWN stubbornness and hard
heartedness to repent, to confess, to change this specific WICKED way in every
way!
That is why, this subject, is so important to me, even were I
alone, or not part of this sorry Body that by God's unfathomable love and
Grace, still is the Body of Christ's Own, so help me God.
If one could do nothing about it, he could at least pray
concerning it.
BobRyan
posted
November 10, 2004 10:13 PM
quote:
Originally posted by steaver:
This
topic seems to be of great importance to some.
I am curious as
to why it is so important?
I have a
question. I am a born again believer in Jesus Christ. I have received Him as my
Lord and Saviour. If I do not observe the "correct" Sabbath Day or
any Sabbath Day, will I NOT be saved?
I like your
first question better – "why is it so important?"
In John 14 when
Christ says "IF you love Me KEEP My commandments" -- is that really
so important or just a nice little saying Christ is fond of?
In Romans 3:31
when Paul says "By faith we establish the Law of God" is that really
that important – or just a cute saying?
In James 2 we
find these words
9 But if you
show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10 For whoever
keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who
said, "" DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY,'' also said, "" DO NOT
COMMIT MURDER.'' Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you
have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and
so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.
Is that really
that important? I mean "really"??
In Matt 7 Christ
says that not everyone who SAYS Lord, Lord "will enter the kingdom of
heaven but he who DOES the Will of the Father" – is God's will REALLY that
His people submit to His own word and His commands? Really?
In Romans 2 Paul
argues "Not the HEARERS of the Law but the DOERS of the law WILL BE
JUSTified" – is that really such a big deal?
Why should we
pay attention to these misleading and unimportant sections of God's Word?
Why not just
ignore them? Wouldn't that be the kind and loving thing to do? How did they get
there in the first place?
BobRyan
posted
November 10, 2004 10:19 PM
quote:
I
had a discussion one time with a SDA who insisted that anyone NOT worshiping on
Saturday would be eternally condemned. Also anyone who was caught eating pork!
Yet in their statement of faith they declared that salvation was through faith
alone in Jesus Christ. When I challenged them on this they could not give an
answer.
I knew a 4pt
Calvinist once who abused his wife.
Is that really
an argument against Calvinism?
I knew a
Catholic once who ...
I knew a
Methodist once who ...
Those kind of
arguments are not good reasons to reject the RCC or the Methodists or
Calvinists nor do they prove anything other than the fact that individuals can
be in error.
steaver
posted
November 11, 2004 07:54 PM
quote: The Subject is so important Jesus thought it necessary to
declare His Lordship of it!
Good post
Gerhard! Praise Jesus Christ for His Lordship over this that all of His
children may partake in His blessings!
quote:
I knew a 4pt Calvinist once who abused his wife.
Is that really
an argument against Calvinism?
I don't believe
wife abuse has anything to do with sound doctrine and statements of Faith.
I have nothing
against Seventh Day Sabbath observers, we all have liberty in Christ. But these
SDA folks which I conversed with were leaders of their church who taught and
believed that pork eaters and non-Saturday worshippers would be damned to hell
REGARDLESS of being IN Christ. It is ok to express your love to God by
perceiving to honour the Sabbath. But Jesus Christ is my ultimate Sabbath and
if I be found in error about anything whatsoever at my judgment, I will still
be found IN Him and justified before God through His blood.
The SDA's may
have the Sabbath right (i don't see it), but not as I heard it taught that they
are the true and accepted
Even if they are
right about the Sabbath being in force, they are wrong about it being required
for salvation, and they are way wrong for believing Ellen White a prophet of
God.
BobRyan
posted
November 13, 2004 09:17 AM
You
are missing the point.
Adventists
do not teach that people who don't keep Sabbath are not saved.
They
don't teach that you can accept any prophet (not even Ellen White) without
first finding out if their doctrinal messages from God stand up "sola
scriptura". In other words – they reject the idea that non-Adventists
"should" accept Ellen White as a prophet.
And
you are wrong if you think that is even one text in all of scripture that says
"Jesus is my Sabbath".
Jesus
is God – He is righteous – but He is not faithfulness to your wife. For that
you must "really be faithful" you can not be unfaithful and then
declare that Jesus is your faithfulness while you gleefully commit adultery.
Taking such a position simply shows that the heart is not changed. (IF you
actually were to do such a thing – which I don't say you do).
See?
In
your quote you argue against the fact that they accept the statement of Paul
"Whatever is not of faith is sin" Romans 14. Why would you take such
a position?
(BTW
– their 27 fundamental beliefs are published online – so no need to speculate
for an entire domination based on "I met an SDA one time who said...")
(Unless
of course you want to do so based on talking to this one..)
wopik
posted
November 13, 2004 01:36 PM
quote:
I
had a discussion one time with a SDA who insisted that anyone NOT worshiping on
Saturday would be eternally condemned.
Hi
steaver, Most Christians think the fourth Commandment is the least important
one. Jesus says people who have this attitude toward any of His Commandments
will still be in the Kingdom, but they will be the least in the
But
in other chapters of the NT, Commandment breaking seems to have more dire
consequences.
BobRyan
posted
November 13, 2004 02:15 PM
quote:
Originally posted by wopik:
BobRyan,
Well stated. I came across this web site about the Sabbath a few days ago.
You
may or may not agree with it, but it sure says things in a whole different way
-- http://intercontinentalcog.org/ICGCC/Lesson_Seven.shtml
I
agree – that is a very good link.
steaver
posted
November 13, 2004 08:48 PM
quote:
They don't teach that you can accept any prophet (not even Ellen White) without
first finding out if their doctrinal messages from God stand up "sola
scriptura". In other words – they reject the idea that non-Adventists
"should" accept Ellen White as a prophet.
Two
points here. First, having good doctrinal messages that stand up to "sola
scriptura" does not make one a "prophet". Maybe a good teacher,
but not a prophet. Second, if Ellen White is a prophet from God, don't you
think everyone better follow what she said?
A
"prophet" gives "new" revelation. New revelation must
accompany proof that it is from God (Duet 18). Can you tell me what proof Ellen
presented that would grant her the title "prophet of God"?
The
"gift of prophecy" post Pentecost is unlocking scripture comparing
scripture with scripture. It is not making a charge that one view of doctrine
is truth over another because God told me so.
What
has she done or predicted to prove herself a prophet?
Jesus
was and is God's final "prophet". God needs no other. How can you top
the Son of God Himself? Did Jesus fail? Did He leave some loose ends? He gave
us all the Apostles to deliver His word. Anyone therafter, thus far, has not
proven themselves to speak for God. If they have, I have yet to have any proof
presented to me. Maybe you have some.
BobRyan
posted
November 15, 2004 09:41 AM
quote:
They
don't teach that you can accept any prophet (not even Ellen White) without
first finding out if their doctrinal messages from God stand up "sola
scriptura". In other words – they reject the idea that non-Adventists
"should" accept Ellen White as a prophet.
quote:
Originally
posted by steaver:
Two
points here. First, having good doctrinal messages that stand up to "sola
scriptura" does not make one a "prophet". Maybe a good teacher, but
not a prophet.
Agreed.
The point I was making is that the messages given (and claimed as coming from
God) had to be tested against established Bible doctrine. For example, if you
are a Catholic and believe the Bible supports purgatory and praying to dead
saints – then when you discover messages from someone like White saying that
God opposes that view – you must conclude she is a false prophet since (even by
SDA standards) a prophet's message from God MUST be consistent with His Word.
(Of
course I would hope that at some point you might come to see that Purgatory and
praying to the dead are not supportable Bible teachings... not saying that you
actually are Catholic of course – just using an illustration).
quote:
Second,
if Ellen White is a prophet from God, don't you think everyone better follow
what she said?
No.
How could they? If a Catholic prophet arises – nobody but a Catholic would be
in a position to hear them because only THEY would conclude that the prophet is
doctrinally correct in the visions related IF those visions spoke to Catholic
doctrine AND they agreed with catholic doctrine.
That
problem is not avoidable. There is no shortcut. Bible support must be the first
level of testing the prophets to see if they are from God.
quote:
A
"prophet" gives "new" revelation. New revelation must
accompany proof that it is from God (Duet 18). Can you tell me what proof Ellen
presented that would grant her the title "prophet of God"?
Obviously
I can – but the problem of the sola-scriptura test would still remain. There is
no short cut. You have to go through the front door, not the back door.
quote:
The
"gift of prophecy" post Pentecost is unlocking scripture comparing
scripture with scripture.
That
is not true. God made NO change in the gift after Pentecost and there is no
Bible text showing that He did. Your statement is one that can be verified
"sola scriptura" and found to be untrue.
In
Fact God's Word DOES say "IF there is a prophet among you I WILL
communicate with them in a dream or a vision".
Your
model of "through out those parts of scripture that define prophecy that I
don't like and look for a different definition" is not workable in the
text of scripture.
What
is more – when you look at 1 Cor 14 you find that prophecy (and the
controlled/order for prophecy) is very different from tongues due to the
supernatural "God controlling" nature of the Gift when exercised.
Simply
standing up as a Sunday School teacher and expounding "whenever you feel
like it" would not work. It would be chaos. Note that the one speaking in
1Cor 14 must sit down mid-sentence when another is given a message. This is the
extreme case showing the degree to which God alone was in charge of the exact
timing.
BobRyan
posted
November 15, 2004 09:43 AM
BTW
– John spoke/wrote/related prophecy almost 60 years after Christ – are you
"sure" that Christ was the last prophet??
And
John's book of Revelation is a perfect illustration of "real"
prophecy unchanged from the days of Daniel.
Hard
to miss.
steaver
posted
November 15, 2004 12:13 PM
quote:
BTW
– John spoke/wrote/related prophecy almost 60 years after Christ – are you
"sure" that Christ was the last prophet??
I
guess it is all in how you look at it. John wrote as Jesus Christ spake, so who
really was the author of the book?
Anyway,
what did Ellen White DO that she would be proven a prophet of Jesus Christ?
Didn't all of the NT writers perform miracles which proved they spoke for
Christ? And the OT writers foretold the future which proved them, right? What
did Ellen do?
Again,
many can preach good biblical doctrine and even reiterate scripture, like
Joseph Smith did. Why isn't he considered a prophet by the SDA?
A_Christian
posted
November 15, 2004 12:58 PM
Christians
can worship the LORD whenever and wherever they chose. They can worship the
LORD in anyway that the Holy Spirit leads them to. Jesus has fulfilled the LAW.
Christians are no longer in bondage to the LAW. The LAW ONLY condemns. If you
do not see this, you likely are not a Christian in the saved sense. At the very
least, you are but a small babe in Christ.
Trotter
posted
November 15, 2004 07:04 PM
A_Christian,
Amen!
Johnv
posted
November 15, 2004 07:25 PM
I
find myself agreeing with A_Christian 100%.
I'm
sitting down now, catching my breath.
Claudia_T
posted
November 15, 2004 08:18 PM
steaver,
I don’t know how Ellen White got into this topic but you can go read the
materials on the link below about Ellen White if you would like to.
http://www.seventh-day.org/Prophecy.htm
You
can also go here:
http://www.egwtext.whiteestate.org/issues/issues.html
and
read the sections under "Basic Principles Regarding the Messages of Ellen
G. White" and "Questions and Answers About Ellen G. White"
Claudia_T
posted
November 15, 2004 08:21 PM
A-Christian,
Trotter, and John V, I invite you all to go read these three articles,
concerning being "under the law".
http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org/romans_chapter7.htm
http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org/romans_chapter7part2.htm
http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org/falseprophets.htm
The
first two are by someone else and the third written by me. I still have to go
back and re-write it but it should give you something to think about,
hopefully.
Claudia_T
posted
November 15, 2004 08:29 PM
I
decided to go ahead and just post this article I wrote on keeping the Law and
how it is so much misunderstood in the Christian World today. I hope it isn't
too long.
How
to distinguish a false prophet from a true prophet...
"Many
will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and
in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that
work iniquity" Matthew 7:22,23. Iniquity means Lawlessness or sin. Let's
put it simple... if you do not depart from sin, then one day Jesus will say to
you "Depart from ME, I don't even know you!" John puts it another
way, "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a
liar, and the truth is not in him" 1Jn:2:4. So, if you do not depart from
sin and you refuse to keep God's Law, then you do not know Jesus. You don't
know Jesus and Jesus will say "I don't know you".
In
short, a true prophet will plainly tell you that you must keep God's
commandments, His LAW, and depart from sin... but a false prophet will try to
convince the people that they do not have to keep the commandments, because it
is Satan's object to draw you away from the path of safety and from the true
God... the Devil wants to bring you back into the bondage of the law of sin and
death. Ezek:18:4: "..the soul that sinneth, it shall die."
Deuteronomy
13:1-8
1:
If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a
sign or a wonder,
2:
And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying,
Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3:
Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of
dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD
your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4:
Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments,
and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
5:
And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he
hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of
the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee
out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou
put the evil away from the midst of thee.
8:
Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye
pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him
Isaiah
30:1,2,8-11 1: Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take
counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit,
that they may add sin to sin: That walk to go down into Egypt, and have not
asked at my mouth; to strengthen themselves in the strength of Pharaoh, and to
trust in the shadow of Egypt! Now go, write it before them in a table, and note
it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever: That this
is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of
the LORD: Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not
unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits: Get you
out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to
cease from before us.
False
prophets have ALWAYS been popular! People loved to hear the false message that
"it doesn't matter what you do .. .you can be saved in your sins" way
back during old testament times and they still love that same message today.
SMOOTH WORDS are what many Christians want to hear. "We dont want to hear
about the law of God" they say. 2 Timothy 4:3,4: For the time will come
when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they
heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away
their ears from the truth.
Ephesians
5:3-6 "But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not
be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish
talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man,
who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the
Well
so much for the false message heard so frequently from the lips of the false
prophets and teachers who claim that "works have nothing to do with our
salvation".
Lk:6:26:
"Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their
fathers to the false prophets."
People
love to be coddled in their sins. People love to hear that "everything
will be allright, dont worry about it". People love to hear the messages
of false prophets who will lull them into a sense of false security. But we are
admonished to test these prophets! Does what they teach square up with the Word
of God?
1John:4:
1:
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God:
because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2:
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus
Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3:
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is
not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that
it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4:
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he
that is in you, than he that is in the world.
5:
They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth
them.
6:
We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth
not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
7:
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth
is born of God, and knoweth God.
8:
He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
Did
you get that? If you do not have LOVE then you do not know God and you are
under the "spirit of error". To claim that "we only need to
believe" is an unbiblical lie! --keep in mind this passage is talking
about HOW TO SPOT A FALSE PROPHET and how to test them!
To
"confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh" does not mean to
make a mere acknowledgement of the fact... Read the whole passage above. If you
TRULY understand that Jesus came in the flesh (Jesus is God and became man,
thereby having both the divine and human nature) then the end result of the
proper understanding of the fact will lead you to TEACH that only he who
overcomes sin by the power of Christ and HAS LOVE ... REALLY KNOWS GOD! (read
the entire passage above).
A
TRUE PROPHET will teach that you MUST HAVE LOVE to have eternal life... they
will not claim, as false prophets do, that "works don't have anything to
do with our salvation"... (Read I John 4: 1-8 again... the antichrist and
his helpers will NOT teach that we must be born again and that if we are, we
will show this BY HAVING LOVE! (verse 6-8). However, God's true prophets will
teach the following:
I
John 3:14,15: We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love
the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. Whosoever hateth
his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life
abiding in him. NOTICE that in the passage above, I John 4:6-8 tells us clearly
that "Hereby do we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error... if
we are BORN OF GOD we will love one another!" If someone does not teach
this message but instead claims that what we do has nothing to do with your
salvation, you may IMMEDIATELY know they are false teachers, not sent of God!
Please
understand that we CANNOT PLEASE GOD and we DO NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST if
we continue walking "in the flesh" (in lawlessness, sin). I John 4:3:
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is
not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist
In
fact, the very reason Jesus came "in the likeness of sinful flesh"
was to overcome sin as a man... therefore CONDEMNING sin in the flesh. And
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,
who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." -however, if you DO
continue sinning in the flesh, then you are STILL under condemnation!
Romans
8:
1:
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who
walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2:
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the
law of sin and death.
3:
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God
sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin
in the flesh:
4:
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after
the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5:
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they
that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6:
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and
peace.
7:
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law
of God, neither indeed can be.
8:
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9:
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God
dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
*Please
note that "the carnal man" (one who still walks in the flesh, in sin,
in lawlessness) CANNOT BE SUBJECT TO THE LAW OF GOD! The man who now walks in
the Spirit, however, IS subject to the Law of God. So many false teachers twist
these passages around and try to make them seem to say that now we are free to
break the Law of God. FALSE PROPHETS!
John
8: 31: Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in
my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32: And ye shall know the truth, and
the truth shall make you free. 33: They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and
were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34:
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin
is the servant of sin.
Note
that the Apostle Paul talks about the fact that we are going to be a servant or
"slave" to SOMETHING... whether it be a slave to sin or a slave to
righteousness... and he does NOT tell us to keep on being a servant of sin!...
we do not want to keep ourselves under bondage to sin while claiming to be
"under grace"!...Remember that we read in Deuteronomy 13:1-8 that God
has brought us OUT of bondage (that bondage of sin or the "law of sin and
death") but that false prophets will try to put you back INTO bondage...
and draw you away from the path of keeping the commandments of God!
Romans
6:11-16 "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin,
but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign
in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield
ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield
yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as
instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over
you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin,
because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not,
that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom
ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"
*Note
that in the verse above, if we keep sinning, we are are "sinning unto
DEATH", not eternal life! We are keeping ourselves therefore under the law
of sin and death!
Many
Christians have a complete misconception of the word "bondage" in the
Bible. They have the idea that it is "to go back into bondage" to
keep the law of God. But in reality, the Bible teaches that it is the "Law
of sin and death" that causes the bondage. Read this again:
Romans
8:
1:
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who
walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2:
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the
law of sin and death.
In
other words... we are to keep the law of God, but we keep trying and trying and
fail. Thus we are "under the law if sin and death". Ezek:18:4:
"..the soul that sinneth, it shall die." If we sin, we will die!
(cause and effect) -This is what brings bondage. We stay in bondage to our
sinful natures and it's effects, which will result in condemnation. BUT when we
take hold of Jesus Christ by faith, die to sin, and be "born again"
...walking in the Spirit, and bearing the FRUITS of the Spirit... love,
kindness, etc... THEN we are no longer in bondage! We are no longer under the
bondage of the condemnation of the law... and why? BECAUSE WE ARE NOW KEEPING
THE LAW! That's why! Now go back and read Romans 8 again! and read Galatians
Galatians
5:
13:
For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an
occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14:
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy
neighbour as thyself.
15:
But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of
another.
16:
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the
flesh.
17:
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and
these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that
ye would.
18:
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19:
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication,
uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20:
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions,
heresies,
21:
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell
you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such
things shall not inherit the
22:
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness,
goodness, faith,
23:
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24:
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and
lusts.
Do
you understand now that when we crucify our sin,,, crucify the flesh... and
begin walking in the Spirit... producing the fruits of the Spirit (love,
defined in the Bible as the ten commandments -Romans 13:8-10) – that THEN we
are no longer "Under the CONDEMNATION OF that law"? Why? because...
Galatians 5 verse 22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace,
longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23:
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
There
IS NO LAW against love! Love IS the Law, the Law IS love! so when we begin
keeping the law, THEN we are no longer "under the condemnation of the law
of sin and death" you see? Why? BECAUSE WE ARE NO LONGER VIOLATING THAT
LAW! Now if someone tries to teach you that the Bible says we are now free from
KEEPING THE LAW... you can KNOW they are a false teacher!
And
now you might say, "But we are under the new covenant now, and thus we no
longer are expected to keep God's ten commandment law!" Reader, do you
feel this way? ...if so, then you are misunderstanding the old and new
covenants!
The
terms of the old covenant were, Obey and live: "If a man do, he shall even
live in them" (Ezekiel 20:11; Leviticus 18:5); but "cursed be he that
confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them." Deuteronomy 27:26.
But
the new covenant was established upon "better promises"--the promise
of forgiveness of sins and of the grace of God to renew the heart and bring it
into harmony with the principles of God's law.
"This
shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of
Hebrews
8:
6:
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the
mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7:
For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been
sought for the second.
8:
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant with the house of
9:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I
took them by the hand to lead them out of the
10:
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of
And
now going back to the subject of "love"... we saw that the antichrist
spirit will NOT teach that we must be born again and walk in LOVE (I John
4:1-8). And WHAT IS LOVE? are we now free to define that for ourselves? NO!
Many have the mistaken idea that in New Testament times, under the new
covenant, we must only have "love" and that the Ten Commandments are
merely a "dead letter" that we need no longer concern ourselves with.
However, the principles of love are defined within God's Ten Commandment Law.
Let's listen to the Jesus...
"Then
one of them, which was a lawyer, asked Jesus a question, saying, Master, which
is the great commandment in the law? "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love
the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy
mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it,
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all
the law and the prophets." Matthew 22:36-40 The reason that Jesus said,
"On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets" is
because the first 4 commandments define love to God (Thou shalt have no other
gods before me, Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, etc.) and the
last 6 define love to thy neighbour (Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not
steal). This same idea is repeated by the Apostle Paul in the book of Romans:
"...he
that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit
adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false
witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is
briefly comprehended (summarized) in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy
neighbour as thyself. " Romans 13:8,9: So you see then that love to God
and neighbour is merely a SUMMARY of or is briefly comprehended in the Ten
Commandment Law. And not only that but both Jesus and Paul were merely
reiterating what had already been declared in old Testament times! Watch this:
"Hear,
O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: and thou shalt love the Lord thy God
with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might."
Deuteronomy 6:4,5.
"Thou
shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." Leviticus 19:18.
Sound
familiar? Jesus was merely quoting directly out of the old testament when He
said Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul,
and with all thy mind and Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
God's
claims have always been the same. Jesus did not really give us a
"new" commandment to keep, He was bringing to light the foundation
principles of love which have always underlined the ten commandments of old.
This is why John said the following words:
"And
hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith,
I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not
in him. Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment
which ye had from the beginning." I John 2:3-7. The principles of His
government are the same. For all proceed from Him "with whom is no
variableness, neither shadow of turning." James 1:17.
NEW
AGE SPIRITUALISM teaches that the Law of God is no longer necessary, and so do
false prophets in our day:
SPIRITUALISM
(now called the New Age Movement) teaches that the law of God was done away
with, and no longer needed... FALSE PROPHETS teach the same thing today...
Isa:8:20:19:
"And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar
spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek
unto their God? for the living to the dead? To the law and to the testimony: if
they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in
them."
1Tm:4:1:
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart
from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils
Eph:2:2:
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according
to the prince of the power of the air (Satan), the spirit that now worketh in
the children of disobedience.
In
New Age teaching, the law of God is put out of sight and regarded as a dead
letter because supposedly "we ourselves are now the law". The New Age
Religion teaches that the law of God has been abolished, and that now all we
need to do is "love"... and this love is defined in whatever way each
individual deems best and degraded into weak sentimentalism! Furthermore,
possessing this love is deemed a "moral option" and not a necessity
for salvation!
Do
we not today hear this same teaching echoed from many modern Christian pulpits
today? Unfortunately, most have no idea that this idea really originated from
Satan. "Do as thou will and harm none" is a spiritualistic teaching
that now passes as a Christian one.
How
often do we hear "all we need to do now is love one another" from
Christian pulpits? Yet the Ten Commandments that God has given us to define
true love, are kept cleverly out of site and even declared to be abolished. Yet
we have already see that the Apostle Paul has told us that the admonition of
Jesus Christ to love God and love your neighbour is "briefly comprehended"
or summarized in ALL TEN of the commandments! (see Romans 13:8-10)
Spiritualist
teachers set aside the Law of God. They teach that the sinful, erring nature of
man is the only standard of character, and they affect great pity for minds so
narrow and weak as to acknowledge the claims of God and obey the requirements
of His law.
In
ancient times, when Spiritualists contacted the "spirit world" the
demon-gods fostered the vilest license for sin. The divine precepts condemning
sin and enforcing righteousness were set aside and impurity was not only
permitted, but also encouraged. Spiritualism declares that there is no death,
no sin, no judgments, no retribution; that men are unfallen gods; that desire
is the highest law; and that man is accountable only to himself... does not
this teaching betray it's true origin?" Yet much of our modern
Christianity has adopted this identical vile teaching! 1Timothy 4:1: "Now
the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from
the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils"
And
now, let's see what top New Age Personality, David Spangler has to say about
the Law of God:
"The
evolution of the race is for man to learn not how to obey the law but how to be
the law. There is a vast, vast difference. If you are the law it means that you
are at one with the whole. For divine law simply exists. When a person
understands this, then he begins to have that attunement, when he is the law,
he is not going to act in any way that will disturb or distort the true balance
of the true wholeness... The New Age is an age where there is needed that group
of people who through attunement can be self-governing, act as the law, as the
divine, as the right, as the love."-David Spangler, Relationship and
Identity, pg. 89,91,93
"We
can take all the Scriptures and all the teachings, and all the tablets and all
the Laws, and all the marshmallows and have a jolly good bonfire and
marshmallow roast, because that's all they are worth. Once you are the law, once
you are the truth, you do not need it externally represented for you."
-David Spangler, Emergence: Rebirth of the Sacred, Findhorn Publications, pg.
144
Friends,
is not this same teaching echoed in many modern Christian pulpits and
publications today? We are told that "we now do not need the law because
we love our neighbour and so we do not need the law externally represented for
us anymore".
Gnosticism
enters the
In
II Thessalonians Chapter 2 we were warned that there would come a "falling
away" in the Church and that this "mystery of iniquity (sin)"
was already at work.
Gnosticism
appeared in the latter part of the First Century of the Christian Era. Its
influence upon New Age thought is undeniable, as New Agers freely admit. The
Gnostics tried to interpret Christianity in terms of pagan philosophies, which
came from Greek, Egyptian, and Babylonian metaphysics. They took the various
teachings from these Occult Mystery Schools, and then attempted to fit the
teachings into a new 'Christian' setting, claiming that Gnosticism was the true
form of Christianity.
The
Gnostics became a sect that claimed to possess a "Secret Knowledge'"
that made them superior to the common Christians, who were not privileged to
have the same information that they themselves had. They asserted that Christ
had allowed them to inherit the Secret Doctrines or esoteric (hidden) teachings
of God's Word. And by combining pagan philosophies with the apostolic doctrines
of Christianity, Gnosticism became a very strong influence in the ancient
Church. But the true Christians labeled it as 'heresy' and fought vigorously
against it!
Now
these Gnostics claimed that they could know God, yet this so-called
"knowing" was not backed up by obedience to God. This war by the true
Christians against Gnosticism in the early church can be seen by the words of
John. Many Christians in his day claimed to "know" God, but John let
them know in no uncertain terms that their claim was false, unless it was
backed up by obedience to His commandments! 1Jn:2:3: And hereby we do know that
we know him, if we keep his commandments. 1Jn:2:4: He that saith, I know him,
and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
The
false doctrine is now largely taught that the Gospel of Christ has made the Law
of God of no effect; that by "believing" we are released from the
necessity of being doers of the word. But this is the doctrine of the
Nicolaitans, which Christ so unsparingly condemned. The Nicolaitans were a
Gnostic sect. To the
"I
know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear
them which are evil; and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and
are not, and hast found them liars; and hast borne, and hast patience, and for
my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. Nevertheless I have
somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember
therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or
else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his
place, except thou repent. But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of
the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.He that hath an ear, let him hear what the
Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of
the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."
Revelation 2:1-7
The
Nicolaitans were a Gnostic sect that plagued the church at
And
so this idea of "all we have to do is believe" and just "know
God" had it's origin in the Spiritualistic Gnosticism that had entered
into the
What
went wrong? Christianity today is following in the footsteps of ancient
This
know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come... (many will be)
lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but
denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 2Timothy 3:1,4,5. Many
Christians today claim to love God and have merely an outward form of
godliness, while denying the power of God to transform the life! In the Old
Testament it is put a little differently: Ezek:33:31: "And they come unto
thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear
thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they shew much love,
but their heart goeth after their covetousness." In other words they SAY
"with their mouths" that they love God but their actions, their
works, testify that they are false professors of Christianity!
How
often do we hear Christians professing that "they love God so
much"... while at the same time- with many of them, it's difficult to tell
them from a worldling. "Lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God".
Jesus said: "If ye love me, keep my commandments." Jn:14:15.
We
do know that this mystery of iniquity has already been at work in the Church.
The vital truths of the Scriptures have been watered down almost one degree at
a time. This has been done to such a great extent that it is has become
increasingly difficult in our day to distinguish the Christian from the worldly
man. Satan, the great adversary of God, has been working in secret to undermine
the very pillars of the Christian faith. In the book of Jude chapter 1 verse 3,
we are exhorted to "earnestly contend for the faith which was once
delivered unto the saints". The situation however, is that much of
Christianity today has no idea what constitutes "that faith that was once
delivered to the saints", and that is why there is much confusion in the
Church today.
Today,
as then, there are false religious teachers, to whose doctrines many listen
with "itching ears". This even has been foretold in the Scriptures:
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but
after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching
ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned
unto fables." 2 Timothy 3:3,4
Yet
the eyes of God are over His beloved Church, and He sees and knows it all. Our
merciful Lord, in these last days of earth's history, gives a final call to
mankind to return to the purity of doctrine that once was held in precious
esteem by the church. In the Book of Revelation, it is brought to our attention
that Satan, otherwise known as the Dragon or Serpent would go out to persecute
the pure woman (the term "woman" symbolizes the church: Jer:6:2: I
have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate woman.), and to
"make war with the remnant of her seed which keep the commandments of God
and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" Rev. 12:17. By this we should know
that there were at one time a pure church, a pure people, who kept the
commandments of God and that God has purposely worked to preserve the truths of
His Word, that "faith once delivered to the saints," through a
special remnant in these last days. The word "remnant" means
"the end remainder of". No matter how hard Satan tried to obliterate
the truth, God preserved for Himself a remnant, that would proclaim the
original pure doctrines.... "that faith once delivered to the saints"
Jude 1:3.
Perhaps
these words from the Three Angels of Revelation will have more meaning to us
now: Fear God, and give glory to Him; for the hour of His judgment is come: and
worship Him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of
waters (Notice this is quoted right out of the 4th commandment, the Sabbath
commandment!)... Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep
the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Rev. 14:6,7,12
PORTION
OF A SERMON AT
The
question now to be asked is, Are the professed followers of Christ complying
with the conditions upon which the blessing is pronounced? Are they separating
in spirit and practice from the world? How hard to come out and be separate
from worldly habits and customs! But let us look well to it that Satan does not
allure and deceive us through false representations. Eternal interests are here
involved. God's claims should come first; His requirements should receive our
first attention.
Every
child of fallen Adam must, through the transforming grace of Christ, become
obedient to all God's requirements. Many close their eyes to the plainest
teachings of His Word because the cross stands directly in the way. If they
lift it, they must appear singular in the eyes of the world; and they hesitate
and question and search for some excuse whereby they may shun the cross. Satan
is ever ready, and he presents plausible reasons why it would not be best to
obey the Word of God just as it reads. Thus souls are fatally deceived.
A
Successful Deception
One
of Satan's most successful deceptions is to lead men to claim to be sanctified,
while at the same time they are living in disobedience to God's commandments.
These are described by Jesus as those who will say, "Lord, Lord, have we
not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy
name done many wonderful works?"
Yes,
those who claim to be sanctified have a great deal to say about being saved by
the blood of Jesus, but their sanctification is not through the truth as it is
in Jesus. While claiming to believe in Him, and apparently doing wonderful
works in His name, they ignore His Father's law and serve as agents of the
great adversary of souls to carry forward the work which he began in Eden, that
of making plausible excuses for not obeying God implicitly. Their work of
leading men to dishonour God by ignoring His law will one day be unfolded
before them with its true results.
The
conditions of eternal life are made so plain in God's Word that none need err,
unless they choose error rather than truth because their unsanctified souls
love the darkness rather than the light.
The
lawyer who came to Christ with the question, "Master, what shall I do to
inherit eternal life?" thought to catch Christ, but Jesus laid the burden
back upon the lawyer. "What is written in the law? how readest thou? And
he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and
with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy
neighbour as thyself." Then said Christ, "Thou hast answered right:
this do, and thou shalt live" (Luke 10:25-28). These words meet the
individual cases of all. Are we willing to comply with the conditions? Will we
obey God and keep His commandments? Will we be doers of the Word and not
hearers only? God's law is as immutable and unchangeable as His character.
Whatever men may say or do to make it void does not change its claims or
release them from their obligation to obey.
We
need divine enlightenment daily; we should pray as did David, "Open Thou
mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of Thy law" (Psalm 119:18).
God will have a people upon the earth who will vindicate His honour by having
respect to all of His commandments; and His commandments are not grievous, not
a yoke of bondage. David prayed in his day, "It is time for Thee, Lord, to
work: for they have made void Thy law" (verse 126).
Not
one of us can afford to dishonour God by living in transgression of His law. To
neglect the Bible and give ourselves up to the pursuit of worldly treasure is a
loss which is beyond estimate. Eternity alone will reveal the great sacrifice
made by many to secure worldly honour and worldly advantages, at the loss of
the soul, the loss of eternal riches. They might have had that life which
measures with the life of God; for Jesus died to bring the blessings and
treasures of heaven within their reach, that they might not be accounted poor
and wretched and miserable in the high estimate of eternity.
None
Enter As Commandment-breakers
None
who have had the light of truth will enter the city of
The
character building is to go on during the hours of probation. Day by day their
actions are registered in the books of heaven, and they will in the great day
of God be rewarded as their works have been. It will then be seen who receives
the blessing. "Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may
have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the
city" (Revelation 22:14).
Those
who make a raid against God's law are warring against God Himself; and many who
are filled with the greatest bitterness against the commandment-keeping people
of God make the loudest boast of living holy, sinless lives. This can be
explained only in one way: they have no mirror in which to look to discover to
themselves the deformity of their character. Neither Joseph, Daniel, nor any of
the apostles claimed to be without sin. Men who have lived nearest to God, men
who would sacrifice life itself rather than to knowingly sin against Him, men
whom God has honoured with divine light and power, have acknowledged themselves
to be sinners, unworthy of His great favours. They have felt their weakness
and, sorrowful for their sins, have tried to copy the pattern Jesus Christ.
Just
Two Classes--Obedient and Disobedient
There
are to be but two classes upon the earth, the obedient children of God and the
disobedient. Upon one occasion Christ thus set before His hearers the judgement
work: "When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy
angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory: and before Him
shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as
a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: and He shall set the sheep on His
right hand, but the goats on the left.
"Then
shall the King say unto them on His right hand, Come, ye blessed of My Father,
inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I
was an hungered, and ye gave Me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave Me drink: I
was a stranger, and ye took Me in: naked, and ye clothed Me: I was sick, and ye
visited Me: I was in prison, and ye came unto Me.
"Then
shall the righteous answer Him, saying, Lord, when saw we Thee an hungred, and
fed Thee? or thirsty, and gave Thee drink? When saw we Thee a stranger and took
Thee in? or naked, and clothed Thee? or when saw we Thee sick, or in prison,
and came unto Thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say
unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my
brethren, ye have done it unto Me" (Matthew 25:31-40).
Thus
Christ identifies His interest with that of suffering humanity. Every attention
given to His children He considers done to Himself personally. Those who claim
modern sanctification would have come boastingly forward, saying, "Lord,
Lord, do You not know us? Have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name
cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?" The people
have described, who make these pretentious claims, apparently weaving Jesus
into all their doings, fitly represent those who claim modern sanctification
but who are at war with the law of God. Christ calls them workers of iniquity
because they are deceivers, having on the garments of righteousness to hide the
deformity of their characters, the inward wickedness of their unholy hearts.
Satan
has come down in these last days to work with all deceivableness of
unrighteousness in them that perish. His satanic majesty works miracles in the
sight of false prophets, in the sight of men, claiming that he is indeed Christ
Himself. Satan gives his power to those who are aiding him in his deceptions;
therefore those who claim to have the great power of God can only be discerned
by the great detector, the law of Jehovah. The Lord tells us if it were
possible they would deceive the very elect. The sheep's clothing seems so real,
so genuine, that the wolf can be discerned only as we go to God's great moral
standard and there find that they are transgressors of the law of Jehovah.
Now,
if There Was Ever a Time
If
ever there was a time when we needed faith and spiritual enlightenment, it is
now. Those who are watching unto prayer and are searching the Scriptures daily
with an earnest desire to know and do the will of God will not be led astray by
any of the deceptions of Satan. They alone will discern the pretext which
cunning men adopt to beguile and ensnare. So much time and attention are
bestowed upon the world, upon dress and eating and drinking, that no time is
left for prayer and the study of the Scriptures.
We
want the truth on every point, and we must search for it as for hid treasures.
Dishes of fables are presented to us on every hand, and men choose to believe
error rather than truth, because the acceptance of the truth involves a cross.
Self must be denied; self must be crucified. Therefore Satan presents to them
an easier way by making void the law of God. When God lets man have his own
way, it is the darkest hour of his life. For a wilful, disobedient child to be
left to have his own way, to follow the bent of his own mind and gather the
dark clouds of God's judgement about him, is a terrible thing.
But
Satan has his agents who are too proud to repent and who are constantly at work
to tear down the cause of Jehovah and trample it under their feet. What a day
of sorrow and despair when these meet their work with all its burden of
results! Souls who might have been saved to Jesus Christ have been lost through
their teachings and influence.
Christ
died for them that they might have life. He opened before them the way whereby
they might, through His merits, keep the law of God. Christ says, "I know
thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut
it" (Revelation 3:8). How hard men work to close that door; but they are
not able. John's testimony is, "And the
God's
children will have a fierce conflict with the adversary of souls, and it will
become more exceedingly bitter as we approach the close of the conflict. But
the Lord will help those who stand in defence of His truth.
Brothers
and Sisters, it is TRUE that we MUST believe, we MUST have faith! HOWEVER...
the Bible teaches that we will PROVE that we have genuine belief, genuine
faith... BY OUR WORKS!
Jms:2:14:
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not
works? can faith save him?
Jms:2:17:
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jms:2:18:
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith
without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jms:2:20:
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Now
NOTICE who is it that will come forth from the graves to everlasting life... is
it they who profess to "Believe" in Jesus? No, read carefully...
John
5: 24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth
on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into
condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25: Verily, verily, I say
unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of
the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26: For as the Father hath life
in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27: And hath
given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28:
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the
graves shall hear his voice, 29: And shall come forth; they that have done
good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the
resurrection of damnation.
1Jn:2:28:
And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have
confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
How
do we show that we "abide" in Him? Note that the verses below explain
how to tell whether or not you are "abiding" in Jesus and He in you:
1Jn:3:6:
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him,
neither known him.
"If
a man love Me," Christ said, "he will keep My words; and My Father
will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him."
John 14:23.
To
"abide" in Christ, you must "die to self" and no longer
walk in the flesh... Jn:12:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of
wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it
bringeth forth much fruit. (that would be the fruits of the Spirit)
1Jn:3:14:
We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren.
He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
1Jn:2:10:
He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of
stumbling in him.
1Jn:3:24:
And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby
we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1Jn:2:6:
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he
walked.
You
do not see any "just believe" there do you? What we hear about
abiding in Christ is... he who sinneth not, he who keeps My words, he who dies
to self, he who loves the brethren, he who keeps the commandments, he who walks
as Jesus walked... it is THEY who are abiding in Christ! Remember, John clearly
said that ONLY if you abide in Him, will you have confidence at Jesus' second
coming! The wicked shall be consumed with the glory of His brightness.
1Jn:2:28: And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear,
we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
2Thes:2:8:
"And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with
the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his
coming." Sin and all those who cling to sin will be consumed!
The
wicked, they who choose to cling to their sins and not let them go, will be
heading for the hills and begging the mountains to fall on them to shield them
from Christ! They will NOT have confidence. And why? ...obviously because they
were NOT abiding in Him!
Luke
23:27-30: "And there followed him a great company of people, and of women,
which also bewailed and lamented him. But Jesus turning unto them said,
Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your
children. For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say,
Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never
gave suck. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to
the hills, Cover us."
Isaiah
2:16-21: "And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the
haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in
that day. And the idols he shall utterly abolish. And they shall go into the
holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and
for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. In
that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which
they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; To go
into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear
of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake
terribly the earth."
You
are either going to get rid of your sins and your idols NOW or else you will do
it LATER, when it is too late! And if you expect to have confidence before God
in that day, you MUST abide in Jesus... ALONE!
Let
me put this in very simple terms. You MUST cling to Jesus alone for merit, for
salvation. You MUST not trust to your own works for salvation. Anything you
offer to God in the way of good works to gain salvation will be rejected as
"filthy rags". Period! HOWEVER, you CANNOT cling to Jesus with one
hand and cling to sin with the other! Drop it! Cling to Jesus with BOTH HANDS!
Let His Holy Spirit dwell in you, abide in you and you abide in Him... CLING TO
HIM... and the fruits of the Spirit (love, etc) will appear... NOT SIN!
1Jn:3:7:
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that DOETH righteousness IS
righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn:3:18:
My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and
in truth.
Brothers
and Sisters, LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU! Do not allow anybody to convince you that
works have nothing to do with your salvation. This is a terrible deception, and
this "works do not matter" lie comes from Satan himself.
I
John 3:14,15: We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love
the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. Whosoever hateth
his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life
abiding in him.
Can
we earn salvation? "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and
that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should
boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works,
which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." Ephesians
2:8-10.
What
experience must we have to receive this free gift? "Jesus answered and
said to him, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot
see the
In
conclusion, many Christians want to hear the smooth words of a false prophet.
It has ALWAYS been that way! But a true prophet will tell you THE TRUTH. True
prophets will make you uncomfortable in your sins, they will not present to you
a smooth message, lulling you into that sense of false security. True prophets
will always point you to Jesus AND to the Law of God. On the other hand, false
prophets who speak smooth words to the people will always cause the people to
rest easy in their sins, and make them think sin to be a light matter:
Jeremiah
6:13-16 For from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is
given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one
dealeth falsely. They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people
slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace. Were they ashamed when
they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither
could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time
that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD. Thus saith the LORD,
Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good
way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We
will not walk therein." (the "old paths" refer to the ten
commandments)
For
More Information
"...he
that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit
adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false
witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is
briefly comprehended (summarized) in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy
neighbour as thyself. " Romans 13:8,9:
Note
that Paul said AND IF THERE BE ANY OTHER COMMANDMENT... this includes the 4th
commandment... the Sabbath commandment!
Claudia_T
posted
November 15, 2004 08:48 PM
I
just wanted to add that it's strange how if you ask Christians "Now that
you are a Christian are you free to commit adultery? NO they say, of course
not! Are you free to kill your neighbour? NO of course not, they say...
are
you free now to steal from your neighbour, to worship idols? NO of course not
they say..
But
when you get to that Sabbath Commandment and ask if they need to keep THAT
commandment suddenly they are under grace and say they need not keep that
particular one.
Do
you know why? I will tell you why. It is God's Sign... the sign that tells us
He is our Creator... and we are accountable to Him. That is why Satan hates
that commandment so much.
God
has an extremely important message to give to His people in these last days of
Earth's history! In fact, this message is so important that we see three special
angels flying in the midst of heaven to deliver it to the entire world. Those
who reject this message will receive the dreaded Mark of the Beast and they
receive a devastating punishment for doing so. It is referred to in Revelation
Chapter 14 as The Everlasting Gospel (verse 6). The momentous events described
in Revelation 14 are portrayed as occurring right before the second coming of
Christ, otherwise known as "The Harvest" (see Rev. 14:14-20 and
compare with Matt.13:30).
Now
let's take a closer look at the Three Angel's Messages, for they concern us
all:
Revelation
Chapter 14:
6:
And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting
gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and
kindred, and tongue, and people,
7:
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his
judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and
the fountains of waters.
8:
And there followed another angel, saying,
9:
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship
the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10:
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out
without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with
fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of
the Lamb:
11:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no
rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever
receiveth the mark of his name.
12:
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of
God, and the faith of Jesus.
After
the warning against the worship of the beast and his image the prophecy
declares: "Here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith
of Jesus." Since those who keep God's commandments are thus placed in
contrast with those that worship the beast and his image and receive his mark,
it follows that the keeping of God's law, on the one hand, and its violation,
on the other, will make the distinction between the worshipers of God and the
worshipers of the beast. And so obviously, those who do receive the Mark of the
Beast will have no regard for the commandments of God, while at the same time,
God's people do observe them.
Friends,
do you see that if we will just allow the Bible to explain itself, that it
becomes easy to understand what it means? Instead of imagining all sorts of
theories about what it means, we need to let God reveal the truth to us by
comparing scripture with scripture. 1Cor:2:13: Which things also we speak, not in
the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth;
comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Now
let's examine this in even more detail.... Revelation 14 verse 9 says that
those who receive the Mark of the Beast will receive it in their forehead or in
their hand. Interestingly enough, in Deuteronomy 6 verses 1-8 we read that God
told His people to keep His commandments. Notice that they are told that the
commandments of God are to be a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets
between thine eyes (on their forehead)!
Deut.
6:
1:
Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD
your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them
5:
And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy
soul, and with all thy might.
6:
And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart
8:
And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as
frontlets between thine eyes.
Thus
we have now learned that God's commandments were as a sign or "Mark"
on the forehead or hand of His people, while the Mark of the Beast would be His
sign or "Mark" on the forehead or hand of his people. Not only that,
but this evil mark would involve a disregard for the commandments of God.
We
will take note now of Rev. verses 6 and 7:
And
I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel
to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred,
and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to
him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven,
and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
The
Angel just now quoted right straight out of one of the ten commandments. Does
anybody recognize which of the commandments? No? -well let me show you:
Exodus
20:
8:
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9:
Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10:
But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do
any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy
maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11:
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them
is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day, and
hallowed it.
The
Angel just reminded us to worship God, our Creator, that made heaven, and
earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters, quoting from the 4th
commandment... the Sabbath command! Amazing! And so this "Beast" must
hate it when God's people keep His commandments and especially when they
recognize Him as their Creator, as we are admonished to do in the 4th
commandment.
What
is the Seal of God?
And
after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth,
holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the
earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from
the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to
the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea saying,
Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the
servants of our God in their foreheads." Revelation 7:1-3.
Well
friends, what is God's "seal?" A seal has to do with legal affairs.
Laws are created, and they are stamped with the seal of the ruling government.
A seal consists of three parts:
The
name of the ruler.
The
ruler's title.
The
territory over which he rules.
When
the government seal is placed upon a law, or on currency, it then becomes
"official". The nation that is loyal to that government who made the
law is to stand behind the law. In the same way, God's seal makes His law
official, and the whole loyal universe is to then stand behind it!
Anyone
who is disloyal to the seal of that government, and to the law upon which it is
placed, is looked upon as being disloyal to the government itself. God's seal
is also placed in His law. "Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my
disciples." Isaiah 8:16.
We
just read that the seal of God was to be placed in the forehead of God's
faithful and loyal people as well. His law is in our hearts and in our MINDS
(forehead). Under the new covenant, God's promise is this: "This is the
covenant that I will make with them after those day, saith the Lord, I will put
my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them." Hebrews
10:16.
The
Holy Spirit who is the one who "seals" us, places the seal of God in
our foreheads if we allow it. We now have God's law in our minds, in our
conscience, --and we are loyal to it, showing that we are also loyal to the
Creator, the Ruler, who Himself declared that we must keep it!
Just
as a government ruler uses his "seal" of government to enforce the
laws of the land, God uses His "seal" to enforce His law. And at the
same time, the Beast will use his seal or mark, to try to enforce his law in
the place of God's.
If
the 7th day Sabbath is indeed God's seal, then we ought to be able to find the
three different parts of a seal within that commandment, correct? Indeed it is
there, let's take a close look:
"Remember
the Sabbath day to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour and do all thy
work: But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt
not do any work . . . For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea,
and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed
the Sabbath day and hallowed it." Exodus 20:8-11.
This
is the only place in the Bible where you will find God's seal. Here are the
three parts of the seal.
His
name – "the Lord."
His
title – "thy God" (Creator).
His
territory – "heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is."
Isn't
that amazing? And we ought to expect then that the Beast power would work very
hard to hide the truth of the sacred Sabbath from us. After all, it is God's
sign or seal!
You
may ask, Is the Sabbath really the seal of God? Look at Ezekiel 20:12.
"Moreover also I gave them my Sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them,
that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them." "And
hallow my Sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may
know that I am the Lord your God." Ezekiel 20:12,20. Note that the word
"sign" means the same as "seal" --see Romans 4:11.
The
Elijah Message
The
coming of the bridegroom was at midnight--the very darkest hour (Matt. 25:6).
So too will the coming of Christ take place in the darkest period of this
earth's history. The days of Noah and
But
at this terrible dark time of earth's history, God has a special message to
give to the world that is not unlike that given by God's servant Elijah. Before
the day of the Lord, Elijah was to be sent to the world to warn them. Malachi
4:4-6: "Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto
him in Horeb for all
The
Three Angel's Messages of Revelation are a counterpart of that proclaimed by
Elijah, because it too calls for people to decide between the worship of the
beast and the worship of God (Revelation 14:6-12). This will cause those who
understand the sign of the times to cry out against the sinful practices of the
people, appealing to them to return to God by keeping His commandments.
Revelation 14:9-12: "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud
voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his
forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God,
which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation... Here is
the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God,
and the faith of Jesus."
This
prophecy concerning the Elijah message was partially fulfilled in John the
Baptist: "For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if
you will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come." Matt. 11:13,14
Luke
1:16,17: And many of the children of
In
John the Baptist the Lord raised up for Himself a messenger to prepare the way
of the Lord at the first coming of Jesus Christ. He was to bear to the world an
unflinching testimony in the denunciation of sin. Luke, in announcing John's
mission and work, said, "And he shall go before him in the spirit and
power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the
disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the
Lord" (Luke 1:17). Many of the Pharisees and Sadducees came to the baptism
of John, and addressing these, he said, "O generation of vipers, who hath
warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits meet
for repentance: and think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our
father..." Matt 3:7-12.
...so
too are the Three Angel's Messages of Revelation the "Elijah Message"
of our time, to be given just before the second coming of Christ!
Come
out of her, My people
In
the Book of Revelation, not only are God's people called to keep His
commandments and to avoid receiving the Mark of the Beast, but they are also
given the call to "come OUT of Babylon":
Revelation
18:1-4
1:
And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great
power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2:
And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying,
3:
For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the
kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of
the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4:
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that
ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Now
that we know who God's people are... those who keep His commandments and His
Sabbath, --the question is, Who or what then is this "Beast" of
Revelation chapter 14? And what is "
Dan:7:25:
And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the
saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws.
Yes,
this wicked being would think to change the very law of God... --the Sabbath,
God's Seal! As a matter of fact, the prophet Isaiah, when prophesying about the
end of time when the wicked would be destroyed, gave the very reason why it was
that God was so angry with them: Isa:24:5: "The earth also is defiled under
the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the
ordinance , broken the everlasting covenant."
steaver
posted
November 15, 2004 09:59 PM
When
you speak of keeping the Law, are you speaking about just the ten commandments
or every command God ever gave?
Do
you keep this commandment......?
"Thou
shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with
all thy mind"
If
you answer No, you will not be saved according to you exposition, for you do
not uphold the law.
If
you answer Yes, you will not be saved according to your exposition, for you
will be judged a liar, thus breaking yet another law.
Your
doctrine is a lose-lose proposition.
The
law always condemns. It is how we learn to trust in the promises of Christ
Alone. Believe and thou shalt be saved!
Abraham
believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called
the Friend of God.
What
law did Abraham exercise before God imputed righteousness unto him?
God
is searching for Friends. He already sees that none can keep the law. In fact
He gave the law to prove this that He might have mercy upon all who believe in
Jesus Christ and His works alone.
BobRyan
posted
November 16, 2004 09:07 AM
quote:
Originally posted by steaver:
When
you speak of keeping the Law, are you speaking about just the ten commandments
or every command God ever gave?
Do
you keep this commandment......?
"Thou
shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with
all thy mind"
You
quote Lev 19:18 – the Levitical Law and ask if I choose to rebel against it or
keep it?
I
choose not to rebel.
quote:
If
you answer Yes, you will not be saved
I
guess we differ there.
quote:
The
law always condemns.
Read
James 2. "So LIVE and ACT as those who are to be judged BY the Law of
Liberty" the law is quoted in that chapter BTW –
Read
Romans 2
"Not
the HEARERS of the Law but the DOERS WILL BE Justified"
Read
Romans 3
"Do
we then make VOID the Law of God by our faith – God forbid! In Fact we
establish the Law of God"!
Read
John 14
"IF
you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" – that would be the pre-cross
Commandments of God ... a good thing not to choose to rebel against.
As
for your point that God's continued authoritative law points out sin – no
question. Points out our continued need of forgiveness -- no question.
But
– is abolished?? (How could it still function if abolished?).
But
– "is a sign of rebellion to keep"?? – Never is that said in all of
scripture, though I thank you for the quote.
steaver
posted
November 16, 2004 07:52 PM
quote:
You
quote Lev 19:18 – the Levitical Law and ask if I choose to rebel against it or
keep it?
I
choose not to rebel.
If
you will kindly reread my question, I did not ask what you say. You replace my
question with your own and then answer as if you are answering mine.
I'll
try once again.
Do
you keep this commandment...... "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all
thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind"?
I
also asked, when you speak of keeping the Law, are you speaking about just the
ten commandments or every command God ever gave?
Gerhard
Ebersöhn
posted
November 17, 2004 10:51 PM
quote:
Originally posted by A_Christian:
Christians
can worship the LORD whenever and wherever they chose. They can worship the
LORD in anyway that the Holy Spirit leads them to. Jesus has fulfilled the LAW.
Christians are no longer in bondage to the LAW. The LAW ONLY condemns. If you
do not see this, you likely are not a Christian in the saved sense. At the very
least, you are but a small babe in Christ.
I
am not an SDA, but a Calvinist – a free-grace believer – and I believe the
Seventh Day Sabbath. NOT because of the Law, but because it says, "the
Sabbath of the LORD your God" – who cannot change, and never could become
a God who is not the LORD of the Sabbath Day. I believe the Sabbath Day and I
believe the LAW was nailed to the cross – the whole law and all law, in fact
THE ONE AND ONLY LAW, "IN HIM". That very LAW also was raised from
the dead and in that very act provided the completion to all the works of God
and the final redemption to all his creation : GOD entering into His own REST.
That is, GOD, in CHRIST. And He raised Him from the dead "ON THE
SABBATH"! (NOT "on the First Day of the week"). Now this whole
and finished redemption in Christ – the work of GOD ONLY – is the reason, the
essence and the grounds for the writer to exclaim in awe: "THEREFORE there
remains Sabbath-keeping for the PEOPLE of God".
The
Christian who denies the Sabbath its God-given "importance", denies
God's own free will in acting the way He did.
Gerhard
Ebersöhn
posted
November 17, 2004 11:03 PM
Dear
Steaver,
You
are so against the Sabbath (the only one there is). But don't you for every
time a Sabbath-keeper LIVES his Sabbath-faith, yourself, every time, LIVE YOUR,
Sunday-faith? Don't you each time with or without words, defend and fight for
your holy day – Sunday – each time you fight and argue against the Seventh Day
Sabbath (so by the buy the Sabbath of the LORD your God)?
You
do! and you cannot deny unless through acting JUST like you act against the
Sabbath, against Sunday and the LIFE OF THE CHURCH ON SUNDAY, and by Sunday,
and truly in Sunday. For without this Sunday-life of the Church, there is NO
church!
BobRyan
posted
November 18, 2004 07:38 AM
quote:
BTW
– John spoke/wrote/related prophecy almost 60 years after Christ – are you
"sure" that Christ was the last prophet??
quote:
Originally posted by steaver:
I
guess it is all in how you look at it. John wrote as Jesus Christ spake, so who
really was the author of the book?
Peter
said that prophets speak via the Holy Spirit and that this is speaking
"from God".
Christ
said that the Holy Spirit takes HIS Words and gives them to mankind.
So
you are right – but that does not stop the 1Cor 12 gifts of the Spirit – the
Gift of Prophecy from continuing to this very second – using your definition. I
don't see how this helps you make your case. In fact your case falls apart on
that definition for John.
quote:
Anyway,
what did Ellen White DO that she would be proven a prophet of Jesus Christ?
Didn't all of the NT writers perform miracles which proved they spoke for
Christ?
No.
In 1Cor 14 we find a church filled with Prophets but no "miracle"
listed.
Besides
– are you now arguing that the NT form of prophecy includes Miracles??? If so
you just shot your own argument that the NT form is simply teaching the Bible.
quote:
And
the OT writers foretold the future which proved them, right? What did Ellen do?
John
foretold the future. Paul foretold the future. Agabus foretold the future.
Peter foretold the future, Jude foretold the future... Which of these NT
prophets are you limiting to the OT??
Ellen
White foretold the future and she gave instruction/guidance on doctrine and on
lifestyle behaviour etc. The same kind of thing you find all inspired writers
doing.
The
point is that there are a number of prophets mentioned in the NT that are not
Bible writers and the gift of prophecy is unchanged between OT and NT.
Also
one of the tests of a prophet is that the message they claim to have from God
must be validated by scripture.
quote:
Again,
many can preach good biblical doctrine and even reiterate scripture, like
Joseph Smith did. Why isn't he considered a prophet by the SDA?
What
part of Doctrines and Covenants and Pearl of Great priced did YOU find to be
Biblical???
You
are right – "without knowing anything about Joseph Smith" and SDA
would have to at least "look" to know if he is a false prophet.
But
that is in obedience to the command in 1Cor 14 that we are not to reject
prophets and also in obedience to 1John 4 instructing us to test the prophets
to see if they are from God.
Some
think the test is "are you a prophet? Ok then you are a false one".
No such test is given in scripture.
steaver
posted
November 18, 2004 09:19 AM
quote:
(Gerhard)
For
without this Sunday-life of the Church, there is NO church!
I
think the church does exist with or without a Sunday or Sabbath gathering. We
isolate our thoughts to this country or countries which allow gatherings. Many
places around the globe do not and I am sure that they do not squabble over
which day they are going to get together and do a bible study or sing some
songs. They meet when they have opportunity.
quote:
(Bob)
Besides
– are you now arguing that the NT form of prophecy includes Miracles??? If so
you just shot your own argument that the NT form is simply teaching the Bible.
Hi
Bob, I am not trying just to argue. I have some questions that I would like
answered. I ask questions to learn, not to prove myself right because I might
not be right! I just look for solid facts and I just don't see any good proof
that Ellen White deserves any respect let alone the title "prophet".
quote:
Ellen
White foretold the future and she gave instruction/guidance on doctrine and on
lifestyle behaviour etc. The same kind of thing you find all inspired writers
doing.
What
did she foretell??? I asked this from the beginning and know one has answered!
You
say.....
quote:
Also
one of the tests of a prophet is that the message they claim to have from God
must be validated by scripture.
Then
you say.....
quote:
Some
think the test is "are you a prophet? Ok then you are a false one".
No such test is given in scripture.
Is
there a test or not???
I
read this test in Deuteronomy 18:22.... "When a prophet speaketh in the
name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing
which the LORD hath not spoken.... thou shall not be afraid of him"
So
I ask again...what did Ellen foretell which then came to pass?
Also
Bob, please answer my previous post about the greatest commandment. (Actually,
I would like all "law keepers" to answer it).
BobRyan
posted
November 20, 2004 05:28 PM
quote:
Steve
said -- Also Bob, please answer my previous post about the greatest
commandment. (Actually, I would like all "law keepers" to answer it).
#1
I did answer your question about the greatest commandment as Christ spoke of
BOTH of them pre-cross to the pre-cross saints and BOTH of them turn out to be
in the writings of Moses.
Love
God with all your heart – Deut 6:5
Love
your neighbour as yourself – Lev 19:18.
Quoted
by Christ – upheld by Christ.
And
"YES" the answer according to Mt 7 is that we MUST "really"
keep them rather than choosing to live in rebellion against God.
That
is also the answer of Romans 2:11-13.
In
James 2 – he writes that we are to "live and act as those who ARE to be
judged by the Law of Liberty" that he just quoted in that SAME chapter.
Your
little trick of saying "if you say you reject God's law you are lost and
if you say you choose to keep God's law you will be lost" is never used by
these Bible authors. RATHER they insist (as in the case of Romans 2) that it is
the DOERS of the law that "are justified".
They
are not arguing for sinless perfectionism – they are arguing for obedience and
submission to the law of God rather than rebellion and arguing against it.
The
answer could not be more plain.
BobRyan
posted
November 20, 2004 05:39 PM
quote:
Steve said --
I
read this test in Deuteronomy 18:22.... "When a prophet speaketh in the
name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing
which the LORD hath not spoken.... thou shall not be afraid of him"
So
I ask again...what did Ellen foretell which then came to pass?
Ellen
Harmon – (later Ellen White) lived from the 1830's to the 1910's. She lived at
a time when the following were the norm among Christians in
#1.
No premillennial 2nd coming.
#2.
Medicated Cigarettes
#3.
Tuberculosis victims shielded from the harsh outside air.
#4.
American Protestant incredibly hostile toward Catholicism
#5.
Ellen
White predicted
She
predicted that American Protestantism would be foremost in clasping hands with
Catholicism and cooperating on points where they find agreement. She predicted
a form of spiritism would creep into Christian groups and that Catholicism
would be the first to latch on to these apparitions and manifestations. She
said American Protestantism would be dragged into this by the bond they forged
with Catholicism.
She
said that Tuberculosis patients should be exposed to fresh air and had
Adventists create Sanatoriums for doing that.
She
said Cigarettes CAUSED lung damage rather than medicated cigarettes healing
lung damage.
Her
list of predictions both local and incidental as well as global, national and
historic are plentiful.
She
describes in detail the fall of Lucifer and his actions in tempting mankind.
She describes in detail the end of the world and the part that our nation plays
in that scenario.
She
even mentions laws being passed in
But
– the FIRST and foremost test of a prophet is STILL to test the teachings that
they claim as having come from God against scripture.
So,
for example, IF you are a Catholic and you suppose that Catholicism is
supported by the Bible – then you would find Ellen White to be a false prophet
on those "message" she gives that show Purgatory, praying to the dead
etc to be false doctrines.
This
explains why it is pointless for me to go through all the prophecies of Ellen
White with you – when I already insist that the first and foremost test is
sola-scriptura – which means you would have to first evaluate the doctrines of
the Adventist church sola-scriptura to see IF they are correct. (OR at least
the ones that Ellen White mentioned as being supported by some message from
God).
Trotter
posted
November 20, 2004 06:27 PM
Claudia,
Although
you probably meant well, posting volumes of material does not help your
position. Most (including me) do not read "books" when they are
posted.
I
do not live under the law. If you choose to do so, that is between you and the
Lord.
I
live in an area that has a lot of SDA. I am pretty familiar with their stands
on most things. And I know that they will argue for hours about observing
Saturday as the Sabbath. And I have no problem with that, because Saturday is
the Jewish Sabbath.
I,
however, am not Jewish, nor do I observe the Sabbath (either Saturday or
Sunday). I do observe Sunday as the day in which I gather with brothers and
sisters in Christ to praise and worship my heavenly Father. That you choose
Saturday is not a concern for me, and more power to you.
The
original poster of this thread is a sadly misled individual, however. Research
his posts. His doctrine runs the gamut of SDA, Worldwide Church of God,
Judaism, pentecostalism.
wopik
posted
November 20, 2004 09:03 PM
Since
from the beginning the Sabbath is associated with Creation week and
specifically the creation of man, the Sabbath's universal or cosmopolitan
perspective sets it above any uniquely Israelite law and practice.
The
Creation Sabbath is presented in much the same way that the later prophets
envisioned it-namely as an observance for all mankind, for the Gentile as well
as for the Israelite. Therefore, while the Sabbath was later a functional part
of the covenant at Sinai (Ex. 20-24), its purpose and place are clearly much
broader than that. (For example, Isaiah 66:23 shows that all nations will be
observing the Sabbath during the millennial reign of Christ.)
I
hope this information does not make me "a sadly misled individual",
Trotter.
BobRyan
posted
November 21, 2004 01:43 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Trotter:
And
I have no problem with that, because Saturday is the Jewish Sabbath.
I,
however, am not Jewish, nor do I observe the Sabbath (either Saturday or
Sunday).
Interesting.
In
Isaiah 66 when God says "ALL mankind will come before Me to worship from
Sabbath to Sabbath" in the New Earth – is it your intent to correct Him?
In
Mark 2:27-28 When Christ says that the Sabbath was "MADE" for mankind
– did you mean to say "correction Lord – just for the Jews"?
In
Gen 2:3 when God's Word tells us that the 7th day was made a Holy day AS the
7th day of creation week itself – did you have a change you wanted to make
there?
steaver
posted
November 21, 2004 10:58 AM
Hi
Bob,
I
went back through our post because I thought maybe I missed your answer since
your say you already answered me. Here is what I found;
quote:
Originally posted by steaver:
When
you speak of keeping the Law, are you speaking about just the ten commandments
or every command God ever gave?
Do
you keep this commandment......?
"Thou
shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with
all thy mind"
Your
answer....
"You
quote Lev 19:18 – the Levitical Law and ask if I choose to rebel against it or
keep it?
I
choose not to rebel".
I
NEVER asked you if you "choose to rebel" against it or keep it.
I
asked you simply if "You keep it"? It would be like keeping the
commandment not to steal. Do you steal things? I am sure you do not and
therefore you certainly do keep this commandment. It is a simple question, no
need to re-word it and then answer, just answer yes or no and feel free to
elabourate if you want, but answer "my" question and not any rewrite.
quote:
Your
little trick of saying "if you say you reject God's law you are lost and
if you say you choose to keep God's law you will be lost" is never used by
these Bible authors.
Ok,
I withdraw my "little trick". Just answer yes or no.
quote:
#1.
No pre-millennial 2nd coming.
#2.
Medicated Cigarettes
... She even mentions laws being passed in
So
are you saying that it took decades before she could be trusted as a prophet
from God? Wasn't she followed as a prophet before any of these things came to
pass? I guess what I am looking for is the year she was deemed a prophet
because an event she foretold, which could not have ever been seen coming, took
place.
quote:
But
– the FIRST and foremost test of a prophet is STILL to test the teachings that
they claim as having come from God against scripture.
Is
this your opinion or is there scripture?
BobRyan
posted
November 21, 2004 12:00 PM
quote:
Originally posted by steaver:
Hi
Bob, I went back through our post because I thought maybe I missed your answer
since your say you already answered me. Here is what I found;
quote:
Indeed
you missed it. I claimed to choose obedience and I claimed to actually keep
God's command. I never claimed to be perfect (I think that was the
"trick" you wanted to insert).
The
point remains. Choosing to submit and obey is the only path for God's child.
As
for your implied point that "only rebellion is possible" – I point
out 1Cor 10.13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man;
and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are
able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you
will be able to endure it.
See
Romans 6 for an entire chapter dealing with this idea that you are the slave of
the one you find yourself actually obeying.
But
getting back to the Commandments of God – this is why I would always choose not
to commit adultery or murder or not to break Christ the Creator's Sabbath – His
memorial of His own creative act in making mankind.
As
for your reference to the law of Moses in Deut 6:5 and Lev 19:18 – the Law of
love – I am glad that you see it as something to be kept – to obey rather than
to rebel against.
Steve:
Bob
lists a small set of the predictions/prophecies given by Ellen White and shows
the contrast of those statements with the current Christian views of her day.
quote:
#1. No premillenial 2nd coming.
#2. Medicated Cigarettesetc.
Etc. as above
Steve:
So are you saying that it took decades before she could be trusted as a prophet
from God? Wasn't she followed as a prophet before any of these things came to
pass?
Her
first vision (late teens) was of the people of God being led by Christ. She
also had a vision about the work of Christ in the heavenly sanctuary.
Those
were the first ones that she had – and the group that was forming – was not
forming around her visions – they were forming around a doctrinal point
regarding the work of Christ as our High Priest.
In
the book of Daniel – we are not told to "Wait for the vision in Daniel
7" to pan out before accepting Daniel.
But
you counter with "I want to see how long they waited for Daniel to say
something as having come from God that could not ever be seen AND see that the
future event came to pass – before Daniel was fully accepted as a
prophet".
In
your position so far – you treat fulfilment as the only test. That would have
made the acceptance of Daniel as a prophet "A tough one".
You
need to consider that there are about half a dozen tests of a prophet in
scripture.
quote:
Bob comments on the tests of a prophet
"But
– the FIRST and foremost test of a prophet is STILL to test the teachings that
they claim as having come from God against scripture."
Steve
asks – is this your opinion or is there scripture?
Bob:
Isaiah
8:20, 1John 4:1-3, 1Cor 14:31-32, 1John 4:6
steaver
posted
November 22, 2004 09:29 AM
Thanks
for the scripture Bob!
This
confirms that I too am a prophet!
steaver
posted
November 22, 2004 09:36 AM
quote:
Indeed
you missed it. I claimed to choose obedience and I claimed to actually keep
God's command. I never claimed to be perfect (I think that was the
"trick" you wanted to insert).
If
you are not perfect, then you are not keeping it! Trying to keep it doesn't cut
it. If you fail at any one point, you fail the entire law. So stop teaching
that keeping the law is required for salvation. It is Faith alone in Jesus
Christ. "Thinking" that you are keeping the law, when you are not,
will add nothing to the salvation you have in Christ alone. The other trick is
to judge another by the law saying, if you do not keep the law then you really
are not a Christian and therefore really not saved.
BobRyan
posted
November 23, 2004 07:45 AM
quote:
Originally posted by steaver:
Thanks
for the scripture Bob!
This
confirms that I too am a prophet!
Clearly
you have not been following the posts.
#1.
I started out by showing God's OWN definition for a prophet and How HE
communicates with them in Numbers 12. (Which IS the scripture for NT saints in
the first century).
#2.
I also point out above that EACH person sees their own religion as "in
harmony with scripture" including Catholics, Baptists, SDAs and JWs etc
and starting from that point would always conclude that any prophet OUTSIDE of
their denomination is NOT a true prophet (if they are given messages on those
doctrinal points where there is a disagreement).
You
simply point out what I have already said – that you already agree with you and
you see that as Biblical. No doubt! That is why I say it is pointless to
discuss a prophet in any other group without first evaluating the doctrinal
positions of that group.
BobRyan
posted
November 23, 2004 07:55 AM
quote:
Indeed
you missed it. I claimed to choose obedience and I claimed to actually keep
God's command. I never claimed to be perfect (I think that was the
"trick" you wanted to insert).
quote:
Originally posted by steaver:
If
you are not perfect, then you are not keeping it! Trying to keep it doesn't cut
it. If you fail at any one point, you fail the entire law. So stop teaching
that keeping the law is required for salvation.
Not
the HEARERS of the LAW are JUST before God but the DOERS of the LAW will be
Justified – Romans 2:11-13
NOT
everyone who SAYS 'Lord Lord' will enter the Kingdom of heaven but he who DOES
the will of My Father.. Matt 7.
So
LIVE and SO act as those who ARE to be judged by the Law of Liberty James 2.
By
what you are overcome – by that you are enslaved and that is your master –
Romans 6.
NO
temptation has overtaken you but SUCH as is common to man and God IS FAITHFUL
who WILL NOT ALLOW you to be tempted beyond that which you are able and will
with the temptation PROVIDE the way of escape 1Cor 10.
You
keep arguing that we should not worry about loving God with all of our heart
since we can't really do it anyway.
The
Bible never makes your case.
wopik
posted
November 23, 2004 06:07 PM
Since
from the beginning the Sabbath is associated with Creation week and
specifically the creation of man, the Sabbath's universal or cosmopolitan
perspective sets it above any uniquely Israelite law and practice.
The
Creation Sabbath is presented in much the same way that the later prophets
envisioned it-namely as an observance for all mankind, for the Gentile as well
as for the Israelite.
Therefore,
while the Sabbath was later a functional part of the covenant at Sinai (Ex.
20-24), its purpose and place are clearly much broader than that. (For example,
Isaiah 66:23 shows that all nations will be observing the Sabbath during the
millennial reign of Christ.)
wopik
posted
November 23, 2004 06:12 PM
The
account of Exodus 16 shows the great importance God places on a specific period
of time for the Sabbath.
The
true Sabbath could never be just one day, any day, out of seven. God caused
special miracles to ratify the holiness of the Sabbath – double the normal
amount of manna was found on the sixth day and the extra manna did not spoil
when left until morning as it would have on any other day. And when some
Israelites went looking for manna on the Sabbath, God told Moses, "How
long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?" (v. 28).
This
statement is especially relevant since it took place before the covenant at
Sinai, proving both that the Sabbath predated that covenant and that it is
included as one of God's commandments and laws.
Trotter
posted
November 23, 2004 11:46 PM
quote:
I
hope this information does not make me "a sadly misled individual",
Trotter.
What
makes you "a sadly misled individual", wopik, is that you are trying
to live the Law to please God.
Man
cannot keep the Law. You would have to be perfect and sinless to do so...and
there was only One of Him. By keeping parts of the law, you are guilty of all,
and are shunning the finished work of Jesus Christ in preference to your own
works.
Personally,
I choose to accept what cost the blood of Christ to purchase. He fulfilled the
Law for me, He lived His life for ma, He gave His life for me. Why should I
spurn the price He has paid, the blood He shed?
Why
should you?
wopik
posted
November 24, 2004 07:46 PM
quote:
What
makes you "a sadly misled individual", wopik, is that you are trying
to live the Law to please God.
Yes,
I do try to "live the law"; and you are right, no one can do it
perfectly. Scott Peterson should have tried "living the law". His
wife and baby would still be alive today, and he wouldn't be looking at a
possible death sentence, himself.
Living
the law is righteousness (Psalms 119:172); this is to be a Christian's goal
(1Jn 3:7; 1Cor. 15:34).
In
John's letter – written decades after Jesus' resurrection – Apostle John calls
us all sinners (1 Jn 1:8-10). For us to be sinners, there has to be a law
around that we are breaking, "for sin is the transgression of the
law" (1Jn 3:4).
What
law is that? Paul mentions one of the laws: "thou shalt not covet"
(Romans 7:7).
"for
where no law, there is no transgression" (Romans 4:15).
BobRyan
posted
November 24, 2004 09:55 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Trotter:
[QB]
I hope this information does not make me "a sadly misled individual",
Trotter.
What
makes you "a sadly misled individual", wopik, is that you are trying
to live the Law to please God.
Rom
3:31 – "Do we then abolish the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In
fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God".
James
2 "SO LIVE and ACT as those who ARE to be judged by the Law of
Liberty".
Romans
2:11-13 "For it is NOT the hearers of the LAW that are Just but the DOERS
WILL BE justified".
Hmmm-
is it really "pleasing to God" that we "obey"??? Some think
not.
Bob
Ryan
posted
November 24, 2004 09:59 PM
quote:
Originally posted by wopik:
The
account of Exodus 16 shows the great importance God places on a specific period
of time for the Sabbath.
The
true Sabbath could never be just one day, any day, out of seven. God caused
special miracles to ratify the holiness of the Sabbath – double the normal amount
of manna was found on the sixth day and the extra manna did not spoil when left
until morning as it would have on any other day. And when some Israelites went
looking for manna on the Sabbath, God told Moses, "How long refuse ye to
keep my commandments and my laws?" (v. 28).
This
statement is especially relevant since it took place before the covenant at
Sinai, proving both that the Sabbath predated that covenant and that it is
included as one of God's commandments and laws.
You
missed the smoking gun in Exodus 16.
22
Now on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for each one.
When all the leaders of the congregation came and told Moses,
23
then he said to them, ""This is what the LORD meant: Tomorrow is the
Sabbath observance, a holy Sabbath to the LORD.
God
selected THE day in Gen 2:3 blessed it and made it a holy day.
God
selected THE day in Exodus 16.
Oh..
but maybe God "forgot" which day He picked in Gen 2:3! Ya think??
Trotter
posted
November 25, 2004 09:29 AM
I
obey God, Bob Ryan, but I do not live the Law.
Do
you live the Law? When is the last time you had the priests sacrifice a goat
for your sins? When was the last time you brought your peace offerings? Did you
sleep in a hut made of branches during the festival of booths? Did you remember
to bring your wave offering?
You
cannot pick and choose what parts of the Law to obey. It has to be all or
nothing.
I
follow the commands that Jesus spoke.
BobRyan
posted
November 26, 2004 09:50 AM
God's
Word is law – His commands are just and are to be obeyed. Your idea of "I
obey God but not His Word" is silly.
Jesus
is God – His Word IS what we have as scripture – OT AND NT. The attempt to
DIVIDE Jesus from God the Father as though "GOD says one thing BUT JESUS
says another" is silly. Have you really thought that through?
Jesus
said PRE-Cross that people of God were to follow and OBEY His pre-cross
COMMANDMENTS (John 14). Do you seek to divide God the Son from God the Father
at that point? I hope not.
Previously
Christ said "I speak ONLY THAT which the Father gives Me".
In
Romans 3:31 Paul argues that our faith ESTABLISHES the LAW of God.
In
Eph 6:1-3 Paul argues FOR the keeping of the 5th commandment saying "THIS
IS the FIRST commandment with a promise".
In
James 2 the 10 commandments are "Again" quoted from and we are told
to "So live and act AS THOSE WHO ARE to be judged by the law of
liberty" – and it quotes from that law are given – they are quotes from
the 10 commandments.
Your
argument that we should not be thinking about obeying the Laws that God has –
is well... "you know".
wopik
posted
November 27, 2004 01:31 AM
Trotter,
quote:
Do
you live the Law? When is the last time you had the priests sacrifice a goat
for your sins?......
You
cannot pick and choose what parts of the Law to obey. It has to be all or
nothing.
There
are HUGE theological implications, if the law is abolished.
1)
if there is no law, nothing to break, then there is NO SIN -- "for where
no law is, there is no transgression"(Rom4:15). NO MORE SIN = NO MORE
SINNERS. This is not the case, though (1Jn 1:8-10).
2)
sacrificial laws were OBVIOUSLY abolished because JESUS became the ultimate
sacrifice. Sacrificial laws were added many years later (Gal. 3:17,19). They
were not part of the original Ten Commandments (Jeremiah 7:22) – "the
tables of the covenant" (Dt 9:11).
Paul
still kept the Sabbath (Acts 17:2) and told Christians to keep Passover (1Cor.
5:7-8). Acts 2 shows Christians still keeping the OT holiday of PENTECOST -- on
Jesus' command (Acts 1:4), though with a new testament meaning.
wopik
posted
November 27, 2004 02:00 AM
There
was in the days of Herod, the king of
They
were walking the Christian walk of RIGHTEOUSNESS.
Paul
tells us to "awake to righteousness" (1Cor. 15:34), and sin not. Sin
= the transgression of the LAW (1Jn 3:4 / Rom 7:7).
Michael52
posted
November 27, 2004 10:31 AM
Every
day is the Lord's day.
Just
pick 1 day out of every 7 and have everyone in your Church show up for worship.
We
decided every Sunday would be real convenient.
Trotter
posted
November 27, 2004 11:46 PM
You
do as you choose, wopik.
I
am resting in the finished work of Jesus Christ, not in my own ability to try
to maintain the Law.
wopik
posted
November 29, 2004 07:49 PM
quote:
Actually,
Jesus broke the Sabbath rules....
When
Jesus was called into account for doing certain things on the Sabbath, it was
not for violating specified Old Testament prohibitions, but for disavowal of
non-inspired, traditional regulations written by men concerning the Sabbath.
The
Old Testament did not forbid one to pick ears of grain on the Sabbath to eat on
the spot. Yet when Jesus and His disciples did this He was called to account.
The reason? Because the religious leaders had classified picking ears as
"reaping" and rubbing loose the grain as "threshing."
The
incident of the disciples plucking grain to eat in the fields (Mt. 12:1-8; Mk.
2:23-28; Lk. 6:1-5) was specifically permitted in the Old Testament (Deut.
23:25).
They
were accused only of Sabbath-breaking. Jesus did not defend their actions on
the grounds that the Sabbath was done away. Rather, He used relevant analogies:
David and the showbread (KJ.V-"bread of the Presence," RSV) and the
priests in the temple.
It
was only after He had shown that the actions of the disciples were not a true
violation of the Sabbath that He asserted, "The Sabbath was made for man,
and not man for the Sabbath: therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the
Sabbath" (Mk. 2:27-28).
By
this means He showed not that the Sabbath was done away but rather the correct
spirit in which to keep the Sabbath. Jesus was clearly a Sabbath-keeper, not a
Sabbath-breaker.
wopik
posted
November 29, 2004 07:50 PMN
Similarly,
it was forbidden by extra-biblical Jewish law to treat a sickness when the sick
person's life was in no immediate danger.
Although
being watched by the Pharisees and scribes, Jesus healed a man with a withered
hand on the Sabbath (Mt. 12:9-14; Mk. 3:1-6; Lk. 6:6-11).
To
defend Himself He used the analogy of pulling a sheep out of a pit on the
Sabbath. This shows that it was not His intent to break the Sabbath, but to
show that relieving suffering was wholly consistent with the purpose of the day
(Mk 2:27).
wopik
posted
November 29, 2004 07:56 PM
quote:
I
am resting in the finished work of Jesus Christ, not in my own ability to try
to maintain the Law.
James
2:8
If
you really fulfil the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall
love your neighbour as yourself," you do well;
wopik
posted
November 30, 2004 07:36 PM
One
passage is undisputed, at least insofar as a clear reference to Sabbath
observance after Jesus' own lifetime is concerned.
This
is Matthew 24:20: "Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a
Sabbath." This admonition is directed at Jesus' own followers. And such
instructions would have had little place in a non-Sabbath-keeping community.
Scholars
are almost unanimous in agreeing that this refers at least to a time as late as
the 66-70 war against
BobRyan
posted
November 30, 2004 11:20 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Trotter:
I
obey God, Bob Ryan, but I do not live the Law.
What
does God's Word say about that?
quote:
11 For He who said, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, also said, DO NOT COMMIT MURDER.
Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a
transgressor of the law.
12
So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.
Yes
– James says that to LIVE in obedience is to "really" obey.
In
Rom 3:31 Paul says our faith "REALLY" establishes the Law of God –
rather than abolishing it.
In
Rom 2:11-13 Paul says
quote:
11
For there is no partiality with God[b/].
12
For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and
all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13
for [b]it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers
of the Law will be justified.
Did
Paul "really mean it"?
Yes!
What
about the old smoke screen that says that animal sacrifices are not done away
with at the cross? Can't we use that failed logic to argue against obeying
God's Word – against obeying His actual commands?
quote:
Do
you live the Law? When is the last time you had the priests sacrifice a goat
for your sins?
The
animal sacrifices ended at the Cross according to Heb 10 where Christ put a
stop to all sacrifices.
Next.
(And by "next" I mean "next attempt to abolish God's
commands".)
quote:
When
was the last time you brought your peace offerings? Did you sleep in a hut made
of branches during the festival of booths? Did you remember to bring your wave
offering?
Did
you find any place in the OT or NT where gentiles were asked to do that?
What
about Isaiah 58 and Isaiah 66 where we find non-Jews commanded to Keep the 4th
commandment?
As
Jesus said in John 14 – "IF you love Me KEEP My commandments".
Pre-Cross
Commandments.
The
Gospel statement of Christ in the Gospel of John.
I
believe it.
What
about the misdirection that if want to obey God's commands then you must ignore
what the new testament says about the shadow sacrifices, the animal sacrifices
that end at the cross?
quote:
You
cannot pick and choose what parts of the Law to obey. It has to be all or
nothing.
I
follow the commands that Jesus spoke.
Jesus
is God – He spoke at Sinai.
In
John 10 Christ states clearly that He does not speak His own word – but as the
Father speaks – He speaks.
The
attempt to "divide Christ from God" fails every time. But I can see why
you need to go there.
BobRyan
posted
November 30, 2004 11:22 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Michael52:
Every
day is the Lord's day.
Just
pick 1 day out of every 7 and have everyone in your Church show up for worship.
We
decided every Sunday would be real convenient.
We
decided on Tuesdays.
But
in Isaiah 66 – God said that "From Sabbath to Sabbath ALL MANKIND would
come before Me to Worship".
In
Gen 2:3 God decided on Sabbath.
wopik
posted
December 01, 2004 04:42 AM
It
is abundantly clear that the
On
Paul's last visit to
In
his letter to the Church in Rome in this same time period, 55-59 A.D., Paul
reminds them that the Gentiles "have been made partakers of their
spiritual things" in a direct reference to the poor saints in the
Jerusalem Church for whom Paul was asking physical contributions (Rom.
15:26-27).
One
cannot imagine that "partaking of their spiritual things" would not
include worship on the Sabbath, since it was fully revered by the Jewish
Christians in
wopik
posted
December 04, 2004 03:31 PM
The
Sabbath, in fact, shall be observed following the return of Christ, when the
fullness of the New Covenant shall spread over all the earth (Is. 66:23).
wopik
posted
December 04, 2004 07:37 PM
It's
amazing that we Christians are so disconnected with our "roots" which
are deep within Judaism and especially ties in with the faith of one who wasn't
a Jew, but came out of the Ur of the Chaldeas and he sought a builder and maker
of a city of God and his name is Abraham the father of many nations.
superdave
posted
December 05, 2004 02:33 PM
quote:
In
his letter to the Church in Rome in this same time period, 55-59 A.D., Paul
reminds them that the Gentiles "have been made partakers of their
spiritual things" in a direct reference to the poor saints in the Jerusalem
Church for whom Paul was asking physical contributions (Rom. 15:26-27).
One
cannot imagine that "partaking of their spiritual things" would not
include worship on the Sabbath, since it was fully revered by the Jewish
Christians in
Now
that's a stretch.
Paul's
teaching is pretty clear about the fulfilment of the Law in Christ. And the
breaking of its hold on our lives. We do not need to use the heritage of our
Jewish spiritual ancestors to pick and choose what laws we will and will not
follow. And Paul is pretty tough in several books on those who would add law
keeping to our Faith. Here is merely one example from Colossians
quote:
Freedom
From Human Regulations Through Life With Christ
6So
then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him,
7rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and
overflowing with thankfulness.
8See
to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy,
which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather
than on Christ.
9For
in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
10and
you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and
authority.
11In
him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not
with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by
Christ,
12having
been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the
power of God, who raised him from the dead.
13When
you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,[2]
God made you[3] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having
cancelled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that
stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.
15And
having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them,
triumphing over them by the cross.[4]
16Therefore
do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a
religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
17These
are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in
Christ.
18Do
not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels
disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what
he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions.
19He
has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held
together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
20Since
you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you
still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules:
21"Do
not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"?
22These
are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands
and teachings.
23Such
regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed
worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they
lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.
wopik
posted
December 05, 2004 09:24 PM
the
Gospel writers – though they were writing decades after the resurrection –
still referred to the seventh day of the week as THE SABBATH.
The
first day of the week is still referred to as just "the first day of the
week".
tamborine
lady
posted
December 05, 2004 09:59 PM
Amen
Wopik!!
BobRyan
posted
December 05, 2004 11:09 PM
Originally
posted by superdave:
Paul's
teaching is pretty clear about the fulfilment of the Law in Christ.
There
is no question that Christ perfectly fulfilled the LAW of Lev 19:18 telling
mankind that we must love our neighbours as ourselves.
He
also perfectly fulfilled the law of Deut 6:5 telling mankind to Love God with
all of our heart.
But
we do NOT go around telling people – "Don't worry about Love for God and
Love for your Neighbour – that has all been fulfilled so you don't have to
consider it as something for you to obey. Just ignore it.".
If
you DO have preacher telling you to ignore it – tell me more about that.
Gerhard
Ebersöhn
posted
December 11, 2004 09:02 AM
Q.
... you are guilty of all, and are shunning the finished work of Jesus Christ
in preference to your own works...EQ
...
like through Sunday-keeping you are guilty of breaking the Fourth Commandment,
and are shunning the finished work of Jesus Christ "ON THE SEVENTH
DAY" – HB.4:4-5 – preferring your own works OF SANCTIFYING THE FIRST DAY
OF THE WEEK ON OWN AUTHORITY AND PRESUMPTUOUSNESS GREAT ENOUGH TO DESPISE THE
WRITTEN CODE OF THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, CHANGING TIMES AND LAW INTO MAN-PLEASING
AND DRAGON-APPEASING RELIGION.
Gerhard
BobRyan
posted
December 11, 2004 09:05 AM
quote:
the
Sabbatharians insist the Law of God is dead being not crucified with and in
Christ – both forgetting the Law rose from the dead again The Eternally Living
Word of God, Christ Victor.
I
don't follow you here.
For
Sabbatarians – once you observe that the Law remains in full force (Rom 3:31,
James 2, Rom 2:11-13, Eph 6:1-2) as God's Word to be obeyed AND as God's word
defining sin and penalty (Rom 3:9-12, Romans 6, Romans 7) – then the Sabbath
"remains" with it.
That
ALONE would establish our obligation.
The
fact that Christ LIVED in perfect obedience fulfilling the Law of Love and died
to pay our DEBT "the Certificate of DEBT" (Col 2) and that in His
LIFE He commanded us to "Keep His Commandments" (John 14) even God's
PRE-CROSS commandments!! These are enough to confirm the reality of our need to
obey God rather than rebel.
In
Isaiah 66 we see ALL MANKIND coming before God from Sabbath to Sabbath to
Worship before Him in the new earth. This the ultimate rest from sin and
suffering – the ultimate unity with Christ.
Gerhard
Ebersöhn
posted
December 11, 2004 09:10 AM
Ellen
White? Who is Ellen White?
The
Bible and the Bible only, please!
Some
good old Calvinists perhaps, yes!, but Armenians or Antinomians or Unitarians
or whatever other -ians's, they don't only bore; they anger!
Gerhard
Ebersöhn
posted
December 11, 2004 09:24 AM
Hallo
Bob,
Good
to hear from you! May we both gain from our discussion.
You
quoted me as saying, "the Sabbatharians insist the Law of God is dead
being not crucified with and in Christ – both forgetting the Law rose from the
dead again The Eternally Living Word of God, Christ Victor",
then
comment,
I
don't follow you here.
Bob,
just follow my words, and you'll follow all right! If not the Law with and in
and through and as represented by Christ in Person had been crucified, it not
with and in and through and as represented by Christ in Person afterwards could
be the Law of God anymore. It was by this very Law that He died, and by this
very Law that he rose again. It was by His own Will that He died, and by His
own Will that He took up His life again.
I
don't see the Stones of Ten Commandments on the tree though I behold before my
eyes the Law of God in God!
Say
Jesus never rose from the dead again, would there have been the Law still? Not
at all! Say if not with and in and through and as represented by Christ in
Person the Law never went into oblivion through the very death of death itself,
would ever had been the Law that is God's? Then just as well say God's Word was
not Christ, and Christ not God's Word. He is the Law of God in the last – and
first – analysis. That's what I'm saying. "Christ is ALL in all!"
Gerhard
Ebersöhn
posted
December 11, 2004 09:33 AM
To
follow through my reasoning above, employing your words:
Your
words are,
Q.
For Sabbatarians – once you observe that the Law remains in full force ... as
God's Word to be obeyed AND as God's word defining sin and penalty ... then the
Sabbath "remains" with it. EQ
See
now that once you HAVE CAUGHT A GLIMPSE OF JESUS, IN DYING AND RISING, YOU HAVE
observed that THE LAW – AND THIS 'LAW' ONLY – remains in full force as God's
LIVING Word IN PERSON to be obeyed AND as God's word – WORD WITH A CAPITAL
LETTER – defining sin and penalty ... then the Sabbath "remains" with
it. THAT IS WHAT COLOSSIANS 2:16-17 DECLARES, I HAVE LONG ARGUED WITH YOU
BEFORE.
Gerhard
Ebersöhn
posted
December 11, 2004 09:46 AM
Q.
That ALONE would establish our obligation. EQ
I
think herewith you have summarised the fundamental difference between your view
and mine.
I
say, no, THAT ALONE IS OF NO CONSEQUENCE WHATSOEVER ANY MORE BECAUSE CHRIST
ALONE establishes our obligation. "The Law of sin" – that is, the Law
that defines sin, – we are not under it any longer, says Paul – Paul the
Scriptures, Paul the Law! How is it possible? By this greatest of wonders and
divine power, that we are now under the Law of Grace – that is, the Law that
forgives sin; under the Lordship of Jesus Christ King and Lord and Ruler. He is
the RULE and STANDARD of our lives and conduct, while being the object of our
adorning and worship. I could not announce this of the Law on Stone but being
an idolater of it.
Gerhard
Ebersöhn
posted
December 11, 2004 09:56 AM
Q.
In Isaiah 66 we see ALL MANKIND coming before God from Sabbath to Sabbath to
Worship before Him in the new earth. This the ultimate rest from sin and
suffering – the ultimate unity with Christ. EQ
I
believe Isaiah here speaks of the present, current, Gospel-era – "the New
Earth". All we still await is seeing what we already believe and believe
as and for real. The day we shall see the REALITY of this 'ultimate unity with
Christ' I believe like I believe you do, will be at His second Advent when
there will be the end of sin and mortalness. OF THIS THE SABBATH IS STILL THE
SHADOW IN ESCHATOLOGICAL SENSE. Of this the Sabbath should SOON properly
witness as when restored to its rightful sanctity and elected uniqueness. That
day the Sunday worship of the Church must go! The Sabbath Day serves as
messenger of the Lord before that great day.
God
shall fulfil His purpose with it.
wopik
posted
December 11, 2004 01:40 PM
Gerhard
Ebersöhn
quote:
By
keeping parts of the law, AND BREAKING THE REST, you are guilty of all
so
are we still supposed to stone adulterers to death?
Gerhard
Ebersöhn
posted
December 11, 2004 03:25 PM
quote:
Originally posted by wopik:
so
are we still supposed to stone adulterers to death?
Dear
Wopik,
our
best keeping of God's good Law is sin – like filthy rags, in God's sight. How
bad then to boast our transgression of it! Stop arguing about the Law of God; I
say it is Christ WHO, is THE LAW of God – His WORD no different! He DIED, and
He rose again, God's Holy. The Sabbath in Him and with Him. We have nothing to
say about the First Day of the week which is kept by the Church in
DIS-obedience and in TRANS-gression of God's Holy Law – thus in rebellion
against the Son. I repeat, Paul saw the Sabbath protruding from Christ's doing
as the doing of His Body the Church. That is Colossians 2:16-17; NOT that if
the Sabbath is still valid for the People of God, then they still must kill
adulterers. Don't heap up the Sunday-lies!
BobRyan
posted December 13, 2004
06:04 PM
Gerhard - good to see
you in such good form. However I have to admit - I still don't follow some of
your arguments.
quote:
Originally posted by Gerhard Ebersöhn:
Say
Jesus never rose from the dead again, would there have been the Law still? Not
at all!
#1. That seems to be
based on pure speculation.
#2. The fact that Jesus
rose - is proof that the law's demands - the debt that was owed - was fully
met. Had that sacrifice been insufficient to pay the debt - the law would stand
but the sacrifice of the Law giver would have been judge less-than His own law
demanded. It would not have destroyed the law - it would have destroyed grace
and mercy.
(On the other hand - if
the Law Giver had chosen to annul the law and forgiven without paying the debt
His OWN law reuired - -then "and only then" would His own Laws be
annulled - made void)
quote:
Say
if not with and in through and as represented by Christ in Person the Law never
went into oblivion through the very death of itself, would ever had been the
Law that is God's? Then just as well say God's Word was not Christ, and Christ
not God's Word. He is the Law of God in the last - and first - analysis. That's
what I'm saying. "Christ is ALL in all!"
I think we agree --
sorta.
God's Law is nothing
more than the revelation of who He is - a transcript of His character. And you
seem to be saying "something" like that in your quote above.
BobRyan
posted December 13, 2004
06:10 PM
quote:
Originally posted by wopik quoting Gerhard Ebersöhn
quote:
By
keeping parts of the law, AND BREAKING THE REST, you are guilty of all
so
are we still supposed to stone adulterers to death?
The idea behind that question
is that either God had "a bad idea in the OT" but has since then
thought better of it.
Or it is saying that
there are two Gospels -- one in the OT where everyone was perfect (or else they
got stoned) and then another one in the NT where forgiveness of sins is part of
the Gospel.
Or it says that the
civil laws (death penalties in this case) inforced as a national law - where
the nation is a pure Theocracy are not just.
Notice that in Matt 5-6
the law of Christ demands that the victim turn the other cheek. This was never
a civil law in
You can't mix civil laws
with the Gospel and run a nation by forgiving mass murderers each time they say
"oops! sorry!".
Gerhard Ebersöhn
posted December 15, 2004
03:13 PM
I just say one thing -
or try to say it, and that is, That Jesus Christ is God's Word. And God's Word
is His Law - absolutely - there's nothing of the Law of God that is not the
Word of God. Since Jesus conquered sin and death He is the ONLY Living Law of
God the believer look at and confess: In Thee I see my sin; "Against Thee
ONLY have I (ever) sinned!" When we sin against God's Law we sin against
HIM - not against the Ten Commandments! There are an eternity of differences -
shortages - between the Ten Commandments and the 'Revelation of God's
character'. The Revelation of God's character and Will, is the Man Jesus
Christ, our Lord and as our Lawgiver our Law to the fullness of God in HIM.
And so I could go on and
on and on, and just say one thing: The Christian's Law is the Living Saviour of
the soul, not its condemner though for the unbeliever HE is the only Condemner.
Any question of how should I live or how should His Body the Church live, is
answered by and through and in Himself - no longer by the Ten Commandments
however wonderful it was and still is. Hence the Seventh Day Sabbath - for the
Christian it comes from Christ - it started with Christ, and ends with Christ.
In this regard the Christian and the Jew have NOTHING IN COMMON! The Jew today
keeps a legalistic Sabbath Day; the Christian keeps a free and feasting,
CHRISTIAN Sabbath Day. We find an example of this Sabbath Day in Colossians
2:16-17.
wopik
posted December 16, 2004
03:41 AM
Luke and Paul wrote
decades after the resurrection, and "the first day of the week" is
still referred to as nothing more than just "the first day of the
week".
Decades after the
resurrection, Luke and Paul still refer to the seventh day as "the
Sabbath".
BobRyan
posted December 18, 2004
04:44 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Gerhard Ebersöhn:
I
just say one thing - or try to say it, and that is, That Jesus Christ is God's
Word. And God's Word is His Law - absolutely - there's nothing of the Law of
God that is not the Word of God. Since Jesus conquered sin and death He is the
ONLY Living Law of God the believer look at and confess:
Jesus is the "Word
made flesh" there is no point in dividing the written Word of God
"out" as if there is some war going on between Christ as the
"Word made flesh" and scripture as "The written Word of
God".
They are in perfect
harmony with each other. Christ authored the Word of God - the WRITTEN Word of
God through the Holy Spirit as the NT text says.
The apostolic word was
VALIDATED via that written Word even AFTER the cross as Acts 17:11 shows us.
There we see the OT written word used to test/validate/judge/certify the
apostolic teaching.
quote:
There are an eternity of
differences – shortages – between the Ten Commandments and the 'Revelation of
God's character'.
The "Game" of
pitting God against His Word is silly and pointless. If you honour God then you
can not do anything other than honour His spoken and written word.
Each time you think you
finally find conflict between them - you are mistaken, your judgment is in
error - but the WORD REMAINS "living and active and sharper than a
two-edged sword" Heb 4.
As Christ said "I
will not judge you on that day but My WORD will judge you".
For the Christian who
actually reads the Gospels - starting John 1 - it STARTS with Christ the
Creator in Genesis - at creation - it STARTS with the OT, IT STARTS with the
acts of Christ IN the OT as our Creator -- and the Gospel message CONTINUES
through the end - from "Genesis to maps".
quote:
In
this regard the Christian and the Jew have NOTHING IN COMMON! The Jew today
keeps a legalistic Sabbath Day;
The Jew today that does
not accept Christ the Creator may indeed choose not to commit adultery – but
that does not mean that adultery would be a "good thing" if only he
were a Christian. In the same way Sabbath keeping is not his "error"
nor would "Sabbath breaking" be his reward once accepting Christ.
The "problem"
for the Jew is NOT in his failure to commit enough adultery - the problem is in
rejecting Christ the Creator who IS the Messiah of the OT - who IS the Creator
of the OT who IS the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob!
How easy can this be??
I agree with your
premise that only IN Christ is there any value in obedience to the written Word
of God. I do not believe that this truth is benefited by reducing the value and
worth of that written Word.
CGE:
Bob
Ryan quoting Gerhard saying:
Say
Jesus never rose from the dead again, would there have been the Law still? Not
at all!
Bob
Ryan protesting:
#1.
That seems to be based on pure speculation.
Ja
sure, speculation it is for the certainty of its premise. Jesus rose again –
that could never have been otherwise, and for that reason only, righteousness
still is a certainty because it consists in Him only, still. Because He lives,
the Law lives. Were it not for the fact, lawlessness would have been conqueror
and Jesus victim if sin and death – lawlessness would have ruled – the Law
would not have been because it would have been vanquished and destroyed.
The
opposite implication is Jesus rose, therefore Law is; He is, therefore Law is.
If a=2 and b=2 then a=b. But this is no dead mathematical law with which we
have to do – it is the Law of God; it is God with Whom we have to do. No mere
Letter; no vanished Tables of Stone; no Moral Code; nothing human. But Divine.
Nothing dead, but Living. Christian Faith has THIS Jesus the Object of its
worship, of its veneration, of its praises, of its adoration, of its hope and
glory – has THIS Jesus its Law! Not the Law that glorious thing the glory of
which against that of Christ’s – as Paul unhesitatingly boasts – “is like
NOTHING”!
O
how I delight in Thy Law, sang David. Lived he a Christian he would have sung,
O how I delight in Thee my Jesus!
The
Israelites that were delivered from
Now
how does that answer the question about the Law of Ten Commandments then? Or
the Law as and being contained in the Old Testament? Or in all the Scriptures
for that matter as being and as having as content – and form – ‘The Law of
God’?
I
answer, I have been wrongly interpreted as if I pit the two – Christ as Law and
Scriptures as Law – against one another. I won’t bother defending myself with
an accusation of unfairness, for one cannot expect unfairness from one who
doesn’t or who cannot understand. I’ll just repeat categorically the total
denial of the notion. And shall request such interpreters of myself to go read
what I have written in plain language. Forget that I am difficult to
understand; I am not. I say Jesus is the Christian’s Law and his ONLY Law, and
therefore the Christian Sabbath is still obligatory for the Christian. And that
I interpret Colossians 2:16-17 so too. If one is unable to understand that,
then I’m afraid it will be a waste of breath to try make him understand it, in
true and pure Christian terms of thinking, to explain “Why Sunday can NOT be the Lord’s
Day”.
Quote:
“The
"Game" of pitting God against His Word is silly and pointless. If you
honour God then you can not do anything other than honour His spoken and
written word.”
This
is no ‘game’! The matter with your point of view is your “and” – “and written word”, as if honouring the Sabbath for Jesus’ sake only, must mean to
dishonour the ‘written
word’ of God. God’s ‘written
word’ cannot be honoured but
through honouring Christ God’s ‘Spoken Word’. Praising the Scriptures – the Law – for any reason or
excellency of its own is possible without God being honoured. To claim for the
Law what belongs and is due to God only is “pitting God against His Word”. To make the Law and not Christ claim the allegiance owed to God
alone, is to make the Law, or the Scriptures, one’s god. This is no unreal
supposition; one may see this principle applied in what is called ‘legalism’.
In other words, legalism, and not a Christ-centred and Christ-only embodiment
of ‘Law’, means “pitting God against His Word” – as if the Scriptures vied for its own honour and has not in
view the glory of God in the face of Jesus! It is a principle and a practice
far worse than “silly
and pointless” – it is a principle of
self-righteousness and the worship of self.
“If you honour God then you can not
do anything other than honour His spoken and written word.”
November
07 you wrote: “It
is obedience and harmony with God that is the result of the Gospel work on the
heart”. Did you think the Law
the Law while you wrote this?
Before
one will be able to
honour God’s written word, he will have honoured and will have been
enabled to honour Christ the Word of God – he will not be able to do anything other.
The
Christian is privileged to all believers before him because both God’s spoken and written Words to him are contained and revealed in THE ONE, the Lord Jesus
Christ. If he honours THE ONE, the believer has honoured both Words of God. If
he honoured the Written Word it is impossible he would not first have honoured
the Lord; and if He honoured the Lord, the Lord it is he honoured, and Him he
honoured above the Written Word of God.
There’s
no comparison – not even between what is glorious and Who is the Glory of God.
I
firmly believe this was Paul’s conviction.
I
firmly believe this is why Paul believed the Sabbath the Seventh Day to Jesus
Christ’s service and worship.
That
is Why Sunday can
not be the Lord’s Day, and why the
Sabbath must be the Lord’s Day of Worship-Rest.