Hebrews 4 Joman FBD.com
Joman:
“Hebrews 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the
seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his
works.
God rested from all his works on the seventh day. God did no more works after
that.”
GE:
Huh?
Joman:
“Hebrews
4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
It is a question as to whether people shall enter into God’s rest.
The “my” signifies the same rest as God has entered.
And, “enter” reveals that entering the rest of God is what sabbath means. A
person doesn’t enter into a day.
When a person enters into rest they cease their labour.
Remember however, this rest is not identical to physical labour as one might
ignorantly suppose.
The seventh day sabbath is a figure of the true rest of God.
The seventh day sabbath isn’t the actual rest that God is teaching about.
This will be shown in the following scriptures.”
GE:
Re: ““enter”
reveals that entering the rest of God is what sabbath means.” Unbelievable! How do you get that? It’s your story; no more. Nothing of what you
say is factual; you have no word of Scripture to support your theory.
To enter
the rest of God is to enter into covenant relationship with God through Jesus
Christ; it is not the Sabbath; and the Sabbath is not it. The Sabbath is something in itself and very
different from the Rest of God as such. It
does injustice to both God’s Rest and the Sabbath to identify or confuse the
Rest of God and the Sabbath the way you do.
“The Sabbath was made for man”, in other words, the Sabbath was
made for men who have had entered into God’s Rest already, and before the
Sabbath. One may enter into God’s Rest
and know nothing of the Sabbath; but one cannot know the Sabbath without prior
assurance of, and in, the rest of God.
To know
the Sabbath by the Law does not mean one knows the Lord of the Sabbath Day; to
know the Sabbath through the Law actually means one does not yet know the Lord
of the Sabbath or has not yet been savingly known by Him. (It is “The LORD
who redeems”; it is “His Rest” that saves; the Sabbath cannot save;
it may even bring condemnation upon a person, either for its transgression, or
for its self-righteous keeping.) Rather
know the Lord of the Sabbath, and if He will, he may grant a knowledge and
experience – an “enjoying / delight” Is58:14 – of his Sabbath Day.
The Lord
may know you and never bring you to a knowledge or understanding of His
Sabbath; yet when the Lord shall not know you and would not give you the knowledge
and the experience of his Saving Rest, He shall also never grant you the true
knowledge or experience of His Sabbath. It
may well be that is why many shall never accept the truth, the LORD, “is
Lord of the Sabbath Day” NOT “MAN”— not ‘man’, “for” whom, “the
Sabbath has been made”!
Nevertheless,
it is written, “If Jesus had given them rest, He shall not speak of another
day of salvation; so there therefore, remains valid for the People of God a
keeping of the Sabbath Day— HE, having had entered into His Own Rest As God.”
Becaus the Sabbath, its doctrine, its believing, and its keeping, ALL, depend
on WHO, “had given them (the
People of God), rest”; on WHO, “had
entered in”; and on WHOSE “Rest”,
“He had entered into”. So it is not man’s rest or resting on or of the
Sabbath that matters; but God’s Rest and God’s resting on the Sabbath that
matter— because God never Rested, but in and through Jesus Christ; and God
never Rested in Christ Jesus, but by the raising of Him from the dead “By
the Glory of the Father”. Comprehend
that it is the resurrection of Christ from the dead that ultimately and all the
works of God culminating, IS, God’s “Rest”, “spoken” of by God,
since the Finishing of “all the works of God” since the creation. Because it is written: “If Jesus had given
them Rest, THEN, would He NOT afterward, have spoken of another day of
salvation.” God would not have “spoken” “of another day” than
that of Jesus Christ, raised from the dead, which is: “The Everlasting, Good
News” of Redemption, “Once for All”!
Yet,
unthinkable, people believe God AGAINST HIS ASSURANCE, AGAIN, “had spoken”;
and worse, believe, He AGAINST HIS ASSURANCE IN Hb4:8b and throughout the
Scriptures, actually, went ahead and changed his Sabbath into and swapped his
Day of Rest for the First Day of the week.
If God were this arbitrary and untrustworthy, how could one’s salvation
be entrusted to Him? It is a blasphemous thought God ever would change His Day
of Rest for is not God’s Day of Rest emblematic of God and the Father’s
faithfulness to Himself as well as to his creature and child?
Could
there be anything stranger than to think God would change his Sabbath Day
therefore? In fact, yes! It is even stranger that people perfectly
understand that this changed or swopped, new ‘day of the Lord’, is a real day;
and even which day it is, namely, no other than the First Day of the week—
right around the globe in every land of the world, YET, they will not
understand the Sabbath, is a true day, or that it is this day, The Seventh Day
.... the Seventh Day “of the week”** right around the globe and among
all peoples of the earth. **”The
Sabbath of the week .... before the First Day of the week” Mt28:1.
The Rest
of God is being entered into both individually in personal Covenant
relationship – and, as “the People of God” Hb4:8-9 in collective
Covenant relationship as “Body of Christ’s Own” Col2:16-17. It is no different with the Sabbath of the
LORD God the Lord of the Sabbath Day the Son of Man Jesus Christ. No
different! Without both that individual,
personal, Covenant of Grace Relationship and incorporated, collective, Covenant
of Grace Relationship of, in, and as, “The Body of Christ’s Own”
(Col2:12-20a) and “the People of God” (Hb4:8-9) the “Delight”
(Is58:14) of and delighting in “the Sabbath of the Lord”, the Rest of
God itself could not have been entered into, nor can it be entered into— ever,
Sabbath or no Sabbath. After Jesus
Christ and after his resurrection the Sabbath remains a delight and Feast for
the People of God – for each in his own heart as well as for everyone together
in Sabbaths’ Feast of Christ assemblies – or stops— it will never regain its
Old Covenant Israelitic exclusiveness and legal grounding and nature except
among the legalist strangers to the New and Eternal Covenant of Grace.
RE: Joman:
“The
“my” signifies the same rest as God has entered.”
GE:
It is no
triangular thing: Here, I; and over against me, God; and, to the one side, the
rest I must enter in. No, it is God,
confronting man in, by, and through “My Rest” – Jesus Christ the Rest of
God and man while He says: “Today, if you hear my Voice, do not harden your
heart!”
“Yea
doubtless, I count all things loss for the Excellency of the knowledge of
Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do
count them but dung, that I may win Christ and be found in Him, not having mine
own righteousness which is of the Law, but that which is through the faith of
Christ— the righteousness which is of God, by faith: That I may know Him and
the Power of His Resurrection, and the Fellowship of His Sufferings being made
conformable unto his death, if by any means I might attain unto the
resurrection of the dead. Not as though I had already attained, either were
already perfect: but I follow after if that I may apprehend that for which also
I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.”
Ph3:8-12.
This
Scripture speaks in the First Person, “That I may know Him”; yet, “that
I may know Him and, The Fellowship, of His Sufferings”— which implies my,
co-suffering in Christ through Him, and with the Fellowship of members of
Christ’s Suffering Body, the People of God who are, entered into God’s Rest. Through The Fellowship of Christ’s Body in suffering,
“I may win Christ and be found: IN HIM”! God’s Rest may hold some unpleasant surprises
for some. It – God’s Rest – is not the
end, but the beginning of our co-suffering with Christ, in Christ; and being the Church, it is the beginning of
the end of our own righteousness and the Beginning of God’s Righteousness.
Who has
an opposing view of what the Rest of God might mean than to have entered into
Christ for our Refuge or rather than to have been entered into Christ our
Refuge— we all, who like sheep have gone astray?
Re: Joman:
“And,
“enter” reveals that entering the rest of God is what sabbath means.”
GE:
In the
first place, the text does not use “sabbath”, but ‘sabbatism’ – ‘sabbatismos’. “Sabbath means”: “The Seventh Day Sabbath of
the LORD your God”. “Sabbatism”
means, “a keeping of the Sabbath Day”— yes, as “a sabbath rest”
like the KJV renders ‘sabbatismos’. It
is no metaphysical, imaginary, ‘rest’.
Therefore,
in the second place, the text does not use the word “rest”, but “sabbatism” – ‘sabbatismos’. ‘Sabbatismos’ is only this once used where
the writer CONCLUDES FROM the “Rest” and the word for it which he all
along has been using: ‘katapausis’, God’s, “Rest”.
I don’t
think I am telling you anything you do not know yourself. I am only mentioning
these things so that the others can see what you are afraid to say so that
everybody can hear it.
“Sabbatismos”
is NOT “what sabbath means”;
“Sabbatismos”
is NOT what “the rest of God”, means;
“Sabbatismos”
is NOT “entering the rest of God”.
“Sabbatismos”
IS, “a keeping of the Sabbath Day” (man’s doing);
Note
that it does not say “sabbatismos” is ‘a keeping of the Law’; “Sabbatismos” is “a
keeping of the SABBATH DAY” WITHOUT THE LAW;
“Sabbatismos”
is “a keeping of the Sabbath Day” without the Law for the dual REASON
GIVEN in verses 8 and 10: GOD’S “having entered into His Own Rest” by
the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
Therefore:
“The
rest of God”, is NOT
“sabbath”
or “sabbath rest”;
“The
rest of God”, is NOT
“Sabbatismos”, “a keeping of the Sabbath”;
“The
rest of God”, is NOT
man’s “entering the rest of God”.
“The
rest of God” IS, “To
be found in Him .... through faith .... with the righteousness WHICH IS OF GOD”.
Re: Joman:
“A
person doesn’t enter into a day.”
GE:
Yes;
therefore the word ‘sabbatismos’ itself, in itself through its peculiar form or
morphology, tells what it means: It means: “a keeping of the Sabbath Day”
in distinction from the Sabbath Day per se.
Therefore the writer did not write, ‘sabbaton’, the generic Nomen or ‘name’
of and for the “Sabbath Day”; but “sabbatismos” the specific or nomenclature,
for the culture, practice or ‘science’ of “keeping the Sabbath”— ‘sabbat-ISM’.
It is
good you observed, “A person doesn’t enter into a day”, because the writer tried his
utmost best to avoid such a conclusion when he said “a keeping of the Sabbath Day remains valid
for the People of God, GOD having entered into HIS OWN, Rest” in view of the fact, “JESUS, had given them (his) Rest, and God
would never afterwards speak of another day of salvation (for them)”. A person through grace by faith enters God’s
Rest, and by faith through grace “THEREFORE keeps the Sabbath Day”.
Re: Joman:
“When
a person enters into rest they cease their labour.
Remember however, this rest is not identical to physical labour as one might
ignorantly suppose.
The seventh day sabbath is a figure of the true rest of God.
The seventh day sabbath isn’t the actual rest that God is teaching about.”
GE:
To which I can only say, Amen!
Joman:
“Hebrew
4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they
to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
It still remains that some must enter into the true rest that God is teaching
man about by use of the figure of a seventh day sabbath.”
GE:
It is
true that “God is teaching man about .... the true rest .... by use of the
figure of a seventh day sabbath .... still”; the very fact confirms, “the figure of a seventh
day sabbath”, is
something DIFFERENT from “the true rest”. The “seventh
day sabbath”, “is a figure”; “the true rest”, is the reality of something
else than the “figure”
or ‘type’, namely the antitype. The “figure” or ‘type’ is the “seventh
day sabbath”; the
reality or antitype is “the true rest”.
But,
there is more to your scheming than meets the eye! You should first get your
statement right and true, because it is a little incorrect but grossly garbled.
You should not say, “by
use of THE figure of A seventh day sabbath”;. You should have said, ‘by
use of A figure, of THE, Seventh Day Sabbath’, because you are describing HOW
“God is .... still .... teaching man about .... the true rest”.
How, is “God
still teaching man about the true rest”?—
“God
is still teaching man about the true rest”
‘by
use of A figure’.
“By
use of” which, “figure”?
“By
use of the figure of”
THE, unique, “seventh day sabbath”.
It shows
how much cleverness, dear Joman, you must have put in your use of a single word
– a single, single-lettered word – the Article, “a”, so much so, that it makes one
wonder, Why?
No, God ‘still
is teaching man about the true rest”, “.... by His Son”,
Jesus Christ, He being “HIMSELF the Radiance of God’s Glory and HIMSELF The Representation
of His Reality”. In other words,
Christ is HIMSELF “the true rest” of God, but God also, and still, teaches man about The
True Rest which is Christ Himself, by use of the figure of The Seventh Day Sabbath. And that, is the truth, nothing but the truth,
and the WHOLE truth. Let God and the Scriptures his Written Word, be the
Judge!
Joman:
“That man labours as he wishes for six days and God teaches that
when the seventh day comes man must rest in God’s rest.”
GE:
“Man must rest in God’s rest”, irrespective, “as he labours for six days”, and, “when
the seventh day comes”—
“man must rest in God’s rest”, always.
The Seventh Day is not God’s Rest. God REACHED “God’s rest” on the Seventh Day. “My
Father worketh HITHERTO, and I work.” Jn5:17. “Hitherto” namely,
that God would raise Christ from the dead on the Sabbath Day. “(Jesus) had
these things DONE on the Sabbath Day” 16b, so that in the end He by the
glory of the Father would be raised from the dead on the Sabbath Day.
Each and every healing done by Jesus on the Sabbath Day was more than a
temporary good deed to man or mankind; every healing and they altogether, were
the Sure Word of Promise and Prophecy of God in-fulfilment-through-Christ, and “DONE
on the Sabbath Day” in that God would raise Him from the dead. (See the
often used phrase in John, “the last day”, virtually as equivalent of
the Sabbath and Seventh Day.)
“The sure mercies of David” are the fact “that our Lord (who) sprang
out of
Of first importance to understand the Letter to the Hebrew believers, is to
have no reservations about the phenomenology of it, that the Resurrection of
Christ is never mentioned per se but instead, is referred to or is inferred or
is implied by just about EVERY METAPHOR found in it. “My
rest”, is only one
of many. One may scarcely read one sentence and not encounter several symbolic
statements of in truth the Resurrection of Christ. Take 7:19 for example – one
can choose at random – “For the Law made nothing perfect, but the bringing
in of a better hope, did make perfect; by the which we draw nigh unto God.”
“Make perfect” is a metaphor of the Resurrection; so is “the bringing
in”; “a better hope”; to “draw nigh unto God”, every
instance, which the Pronoun “which” could stand for. Imagine how monotonous
the Letter would have been if the author every time used the word, ‘resurrection’!
‘For the Law does not attain the resurrection, but the resurrection brings a
better resurrection, by which resurrection we resurrect unto God.’
How does one distinguish when it is no metaphor of the Resurrection? When it is
something of man’s doing. “The Law does not make perfect”; the Law is
not the Resurrection, but is man vainly at work to reach the Resurrection. So
is it in 4:8-10; Jesus’ resurrection is how He gave ‘rest’ to the People; God’s
having entered in into His Rest is God having raised Christ from the dead. Now
how illogical and silly will it sound to say, ‘Therefore, because Jesus
Resurrected and attained resurrection for the People of God, the resurrection
remains to be validated (or obtained) by the People of God because of God
having resurrected Christ.’ Because that is what happens if ‘sabbatismos’ is
forced to mean the same as ‘katapausis’, and is not distinguished as “a
keeping of the Sabbath for the People” to do, from the “Rest” which “Jesus
had given them” and “entered into Himself”. So, “If Jesus
Resurrected, nothing remains for the People further than to remember the
Sabbath Day for He, having been raised, as God from his own works rested.”
God reached zenith of His Works in Christ in the Resurrection of Him from the
dead. The resurrection of Christ is “God’s rest” therefore, and God “made the
Sabbath, for man” as “the Body” and “People” “of Christ’s
Own” to “remember” what God “had done” through Jesus Christ.
That gives all its sense and meaning to “the Seventh Day Sabbath of the Lord
your God” .... “Your” God – the God of the People of God causing
that Relationship which He chose the Sabbath as the sign of and remembrance
for.
These two things is what makes the Sabbath what it is, the Lord’s Day:
One) The exceeding greatness of God’s works and God’s Rest in that God raised
Christ from the dead;
Two) That God “had done” it all “for man”— “for the People of
God”.
The Resurrection of Christ and “God’s rest” are one and the same; not “God’s
rest” and the DAY of
the Resurrection of Christ.
The Sabbath is sign of the Relationship, God the God of the People God’s
People. Whenever and as long as the Relationship lasts, the sign shall last;
the Relationship depending on God’s faithfulness, and the sign depending on the
Relationship; while Christ because He is the Son of Man is the Guarantor of the
Covenant or Relationship, as well as of the Sabbath Day. “Therefore the Son
of Man is Lord of the Sabbath Day.”
I have always maintained Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath Day because He by his
Resurrection became the Triumphator of the Sabbath Day’s victory. But now I
also see Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath Day because He is the Son of Man. The
Sabbath is also human. Christ took on humanity for eternity which makes Him “Lord
of the Sabbath Day” for eternity. Christ in capacity as The Son of Man is
Guarantor of the Covenant of Grace.
Jesus remains Son of Man forever; and through and in Christ man forever remains
partner in that Relationship of God’s Faithfulness of which the Sabbath Day is
God’s chosen and sanctified sign forever.
Joman:
“Jesus
taught that God labors on the seventh day by working miracles on the seventh
day.
Jesus taught that man can labor on the seventh day sabbath by allowing his
disciples to do physical labor on the seventh day.”
GE:
I won’t
argue about that; although I would say one should go very careful on this
terrain. “The Law is for the Lawless
and disobedient .... not for a righteous man.” 1Tm1:9. A righteous man will never taunt God. A
righteous man is content, and won’t break the Sabbath in a quest after money or
greater profit. Nevertheless the Gospel
is for the poor, who more often than not, doesn’t have the luxury of work
options. It is better to be better than
an unbeliever, and a man who does not care for his family is worse than an
unbeliever, says Paul. “He hath denied the FAITH”, 1Tm5:8, and that is
really bad.
“Howbeit”,
Paul also said, “for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me FIRST Jesus
Christ might shew forth ALL LONGSUFFERING, for a pattern to them which should
hereafter BELIEVE ON HIM to everlasting life” 1Tm1:16; not to believe on the
Sabbath or man’s keeping of the Sabbath to everlasting life! (“.... them which should hereafter believe
on Him ....” are one’s “household”, foremost. I wonder how many
times ‘keeping the Sabbath’ of some has meant the loss of the Sabbath and the
denial of the Faith by their families.)
I have
said it a million times; I shall say it a million times and not tire: The Sabbath is for God’s works; it comes from
God’s works; is all about, God’s works; his WORKS of Salvation-Rest through
Christ in resurrection from the dead; for the People of God. If that does not urge, compel, “constrain”
a man “eating and drinking of Sabbaths’ Feast” on Christ, nothing that
might from God or His Grace, will.
Joman:
“The
Pharisees taught that the seventh day rest was a rest from all physical labour.
The Pharisees and all the multitude of Jews kept their legalism and instead
accused Jesus of blasphemy.
This rejection of Jesus Christ is due to the desire of man to be legalists who
would rather work their own works as Cain did and have those works accepted by
God than to depend of God’s work on their behalf.”
GE:
How
beautifully do you argue for the kind of Sabbath-believing God would love! I hope you didn’t expect I would differ with
you, pray!
Joman:
“The
reason for this is to remain independent of any real relationship with God, a
refusal to give God all the glory he is worthy of, a desire to glory in their
own fleshly works, a rejection of a repentance that leads to a real change of
heart, and a love of darkness apart from truth.”
GE:
Now it
starts to seem you are insinuating anyone who may believe or keep the Seventh
Day Sabbath does so to remain independent of any real relationship with God, as
a reason to refuse to give God all the glory He is worthy of, and does so to display
the desire to glory in their own fleshly works, as if the belief of the Seventh
Day Sabbath is a rejection of repentance that leads to a real change of heart,
and reveals a love of darkness apart from truth ....? Is that what you are playing at? If, yes, enjoy it! We Sabbath believing Christians delight being
falsely accused for the sake of Jesus Christ.
But
there is a worse side to this. What
about the ones who believe and keep Sunday?
Are they exempt from the human weaknesses and sinfulness attributed
above inevitably to real people in life?
What about what the Scriptures say about the different preferences of
days of Congregational worship among people?
Will you generalise equally and justly and include BOTH ‘sides’ to the
issue and still make your pronouncements if not denouncements?
Joman:
“Finally
here, keep foremost in your understanding that the cause of not entering the
true rest of God is unbelief. It’s not the breaking of the law of Moses.”
GE:
I would
be grateful if we could close on this more positive note. But I must say, to serve Jesus Christ means to
break from the Law of Moses. One must
experience it to understand what I mean.
Joman:
“Hebrews
4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so
long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your
hearts.
The limited day here is not the seventh day sabbath that Jews recognize as
occurring once a week. For, the many seventh days can never be the “limited
certain day”.
So, it is clear that the “limited certain day” is a particular day that is of a
certain length as in a “grace period” and age, and era, a day during which men
may enter into the true rest of God, ceasing from their labors and resting in
God.
To day, will only last so long.
Stop and think about this fact, that when “to day” is over, that the “final
eternal day” has come, in which this day, or that day, is over.”
GE:
Yes,
sure. I hope you have seen what I had to say about this subject. Nevertheless – once again – what do you
really have, or hide – in your mind? Are
you ONLY speaking of “Jews” who “recognize the seventh day sabbath
.... as occurring once a week” but of course “as occurring” OUTSIDE the ““grace
period” and age”,
and as MISSING OUT on that “day during which men may enter
into the true rest of God”, as have they FAILED “ceasing from their labors” and “resting
in God”? Do you mean Jews? .... not actually,
Sabbath-believing Christians?
Joman:
“To
day, will only last so long.
Stop and think about this fact, that when “to day” is over, that the “final
eternal day” has come, in which this day, or that day, is over.”
GE:
I’m glad
to read, “this day, or that day”; I therefore take it for granted you above had days irrespective
in mind without prejudice toward the Sabbath Day or preference toward
Sunday. Or do I read you wrong
again?
But stop
and think about this fact, “Today if you hear His Voice, do not harden your
heart”, BECAUSE: “If Jesus had given them Rest, God after that would not
again speak of another DAY (OF MERCY)”. Or, “.... about another Day of
I see
that we agree a great deal! At least as
far as this the heart of the Sabbath-issue, is concerned, since most Sunday
protagonists say no, the writer is speaking in 4:8b of Sunday!
Joman:
“Hebrews
4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken
of another day.
The Jesus here is the Joshua that led the Israelites into the physical land of
promise.”
GE:
Have we
not agreed just now, the “Today” spoken of all along in chapters 3 and 4
was the “era / age”
of the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Now you
come make it of the past age all over again by saying “The
Jesus here is the Joshua that led the Israelites into the physical land of
promise”? Vergebens!
‘Iehsous’
– “Jesus”, is what is written. If it were ‘Joshua’, ‘Joshua’ would have been written. “We see JESUS who was made a little lower
than the angels .... CROWNED WITH GLORY AND HONOUR that HE, by the Grace of God
should taste death for every man, for it became Him (God) – for whom are all
things – in bringing many sons unto glory (having raised this JESUS, from
the dead) to make The CAPTAIN of their salvation perfect (in
resurrection from the dead) through having suffered (first).” “JESUS the Son of God that passed into the heavens” 4:14; “The Forerunner is for us entered, even
JESUS” 6:20 (Note, “is for us entered” // “He having entered”
4:10). Observe the perfect resemblance
with 4:8-10, HERE: “Where remission of these (sins and iniquities) .... by
the blood of JESUS .... is, there is NO MORE offering for sin” .... “He
would not speak of another day after these things”. The “Today” of chapters 3 and 4 is the
“New and
Joman:
“This
verse proves that the rest being discussed by God isn’t a seventh day sabbath
at all. For, this is yet another teaching aiming at giving us comprehension of
what the true rest of God is .”
GE:
Absolutely!
Then why try say it is “Joshua” in 4:8, “If Jesus had given
them Rest”? “The true rest of God is “ “JESUS (who) had
given them Rest”!
Joman:
“In
this example (“Hebrews 4:8 For if Jesus
had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.”) of the true rest, instead of a seventh day sabbath example we are
given a “let the people of God enter into the promise of God”. That is the
physical promised land is a figure that represents spiritual rest.”
GE:
I’m
afraid I see “That .... physical promised land (as) a figure that represents
spiritual rest” as
little as “a seventh day sabbath” in “Hebrews 4:8 .... For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not
afterward have spoken of another day.”
‘I see JESUS’ .... “In this example of the true rest”, Hb4:8.
Joman:
“Hebrews 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the
people of God.
So, here the scripture says to you that God has made his point
that, beyond any comprehension of a seventh day sabbath there REMAINS A REST
which is the TRUE REST that God is aiming at all men entering into.”
GE:
“Here” – “Hebrews 4:9” –
the CORRUPTION of the
Scripture says to you that “There remaineth therefore a rest to the people
of God” DIRECTLY
CONTRADICTING AND DENYING THE FACT of verse 8, that “Jesus had given them
rest” and “God would not after these things again speak of another Day
(of Salvation)”!
No! This
Scripture, 4:8, says to you THE REASON, and that God has made his point, that, “If
Jesus had given them rest, God would not after it speak of another day of
salvation” finish and klaar! God has
spoken his mind in Christ, “and there THEREFORE, remains for the
People of God a keeping of the Sabbath Day”. “A keeping of the
Sabbath”— “Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD you God” in
contradistinction to, yet in full harmony with, and fully and finally grounded
in, “God’s Rest” that Jesus Christ “HAD GIVEN them”— “had given them”,
“the People of God”.
Not beyond, but based on and GROUNDED IN “the
TRUE REST”, “JESUS”,
“an ISM of the Sabbath Day remains”— “REMAINS a SABBATH-KEEPING: for the
People of God”. Beyond
any comprehension of a FIRST DAY of the week ‘Sabbat-ism’ .... yet all men bedazzled, by
its lustre.
Joman:
“That
having been communicated...
Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased
from his own works, as God did from his.
So, here it is, read it and weep if you’re a legalist!
The true meaning of rest is that all men who enter into the true rest of God
CEASE ALL OF THEIR OWN WORKS.”
GE:
Yes, ‘weep
if you’re a legalist!’ The true meaning of rest is that GOD, in
JESUS, “in
fact hath ceased from his own works, as God” IN THAT, “Jesus had
given them rest then NOT WHATSOEVER (‘ouk an’) concerning another day
would He after these things ever speak again.” Literally said and literally
the TRUTH! “Whence comest thou,
Gehazi?” with Sunday the First Day of the week? Hast thou been bought? Or boughtest thee an other? Is thine sum thine own righteousness?
Rather
guilty and debtor before the Judge than briber.
For guilty and debtor I stand in judgment “In Christ”; but briber and
flatterer, I stand by myself over against Him. So, weep
if you’re a legalist!
Joman:
“So,
stop. No more works of the law. None. Stop the efforts.
This is what legalists refuse to do. They willfully will not stop their own
labor and believe and trust in the grace of God given to us in the person of
Jesus Christ.”
GE:
Stop the
efforts and inventions. This is what legalists
refuse to do. They wilfully will not stop their own righteousness and own
offered sabbath days; they will not believe and trust in the grace of God given
to us in the person of Jesus Christ.
Joman:
“This
is the true antichrist spirit, that man in his flesh will not cease his work,
for he will yet glory in man and not in God.”
GE:
Indeed!
Man shall not cease from his OWN works of will-worship. “Saul said unto
Samuel, I have performed the commandment of the LORD. And Samuel said, What then is this bleating
of the sheep, and the lowing of the oxen? And Saul answered, THEY, have brought
them; From the AMALEKITES: For the PEOPLE [Adam moaning about “the wife
YOU have given me.”] SPARED THE
BEST [‘the Lord’s day’, but which, ‘lord’?] TO SACRIFICE UNTO THE LORD your God.”
....
“When
thou was little in thine own sight .... the LORD anointed thee king. ....
Wherefore then dist thou not obey the voice of the LORD? .... But Saul
protested, I indeed HAVE obeyed the Voice of the LORD, and I HAVE gone the way
the LORD sent me. .... BUT THE PEOPLE took the BEST of everything .... to
sacrifice unto the LORD thy God.”
Now here
is that famous passage found in the Letter to the Hebrews: “Hath the LORD
delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in obeying the Voice of the LORD?
Behold, to obey is better than (the BEST of) offerings, and to hearken
(lean) than the FAT of rams.”
1Sm15:22; Hb10:5-6. “For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and
stubbornness as iniquity and idolatry: BECAUSE thou hast REJECTED the WORD, of
the LORD” and listened to the people .... and thine own better knowing.
Joman:
“Hebrews
4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after
the same example of unbelief.
Now here is revealed the mystery!
For, it takes labour to enter into God’s rest.
We read earlier that unbelief was why men couldn’t enter into the promise
And, again we are told, it is lest any fall after unbelief.
This is the falling away. The fall from grace through unbelief.
So, when we walk in faith of Jesus Christ we walk in the rest of God. Faith is the labor that gives us enterance
into the rest of God. Labor by faith to
enter.
When you have entered in to the rest of God, then, cease your lawlwss labors,
and forever after, labor by faith in Jesus Christ to do what the Spirit of God,
will lead you to do, and the life of God in Christ Jesus will be the power in
you, by which to accomplish in Christ, all the works of God, which he has
ordained for you to do.
Come unto Jesus all you who labor and are heavy laden with the law, sweating in
your flesh, you, who are seeking to fulfill the works of God in your life.
Discover that Jesus is meek and lowly of heart.
Discover in Jesus rest for your souls.
Take his yoke upon you.
Learn of Jesus by wearing the yoke of faith working with love.
And, then you will do the works of God even as he who rests from all his own
works.
Joman.
GE:
I
believe “Jesus had given them (“God’s People”), Rest”—
salvation-Rest, and I received my Portion “in HIM”, through Him, by Him.
‘My Portion’, is, “JESUS”, “Author AND FINISHER of The Faith”. So help me, God, “THEREFORE there
remaineth a keeping of the Sabbath Day for the People of God” and for me
too as a member “of the Body of Christ’s Own” and “found in HIM”,
The Sanctuary of God’s Delight; a Refuge for the People— “JESUS”, “who has entered
in, into that within the veil, our Forerunner, our High Priest”. Hb4:10,
6:19,20, 9:11,12,24, “HAVING OBTAINED ETERNAL REDEMPTION .... IN THE PRESENCE
OF GOD FOR US”. That is “God’s Rest”.
Joman:
“Quoting
GE, “Joman:
“The “my” signifies the same rest as God has entered.”
It – God’s Rest – is not the end, but the beginning of our co-suffering with
Christ, in Christ; and being the Church, it is the beginning of the end of our
own righteousness and the Beginning of God’s Righteousness.
Who has an opposing view of what the Rest of God might mean than to have
entered into Christ for our Refuge or rather than to have been entered into
Christ our Refuge— we all, who like sheep have gone astray?”
The sabbath is a figure of the true rest of God that is in Christ
Jesus. The true rest is that rest which is obtained when we take the yoke of
Jesus upon ourselves. The yoke is faith working with love. By means of faith
working with love all the works of God are accomplished even as we rest in God.
Of what you are saying, I am uncertain.
I’m not talking metaphysics as you accuse and which you have
assumed.
I’m talking about coming to Jesus Christ by faith, being born
again of the Spirit of God, and walking in the Spirit by faith in Jesus.
This is the rest of God. That we walk in the love of God revealed
in Jesus Christ. That God works in us to to will and to do of his good
pleasure.
Jesus never broke the sabbath. Jesus did appear to the legalists
as breaking the sabbath rest. And, men appear to legalist’s to be breaking the
sabbath to this day.
Natural men reason as natural men and not according to the
revelation of God as do spiritual men.
This is why God reasons with men in Romans 14 that other men do
things as unto the Lord that are not as other men do. And, that no one ought to
judge another man’s relationship unto the Lord.
For who are we to judge another man before the Lord?
As I keep saying, let each man serve the Lord in faith nothing
doubting. And, let not another man judge him in his service of the Lord.
Such things belong to the Lord of that man.
Judge not that ye be not judged.
This is the best advice.”
GE:
You say
you are not certain; take me at my word.
I think we understand each other more or less. It is good. Maybe we will
understand one another better soon.
As to
these statements of yours, “Jesus never broke the sabbath.
Jesus did appear to the legalists as breaking the sabbath rest. And, men appear
to legalist’s to be breaking the sabbath to this day.”, I think it is simply our angle
of approach that seems to be different. I personally am convinced that because
of what YOU, are saying here, anyone calling himself a Christian has been
brought under the obligation of the Christian Faith to believe and to the best
of his abilities keep and proclaim the Seventh Day Sabbath of which JESUS
CHRIST is the Lord forever! And that,
shall include that such believer shall renounce and oppose Sunday-sacredness,
Sunday-doctrine, and Sunday-worship unashamedly and undaunted: FOR CHRIST!
Joman:
“Originally
Posted by GE, “Therefore, in the second place, the text does not use the word “rest”,
but “sabbatism” – ‘sabbatismos’. ‘Sabbatismos’ is only this once used where the
writer CONCLUDES FROM the “Rest” and the word for it which he all along has been
using: ‘katapausis’, God’s, “Rest”.
None of this is in the Bible.”
GE:
The
following in the Bible (here, from the Bible), is Hebrews 4:8-10, verbatim:
“8 ei
gar autous Iehsous katepausen
if
therefore then Jesus had given them rest
ouk an
peri allehs elalei meta tauta hehmeras
not
howsoever he shall speak afterwards again of a day another (to hear His Voice)
9 ara
apoleipetai sabbatismos tohi laohi tou theou
there
most certainly therefore remains valid a keeping of the Sabbath Day for the
People of God
10 ho
gar eiselthohn eis tehn katapausin autou
HE, (God
Jesus) therefore having entered into HIS Rest
kai
autos katepausen apo tohn ergohn autou
indeed
Himself rested, from / after His Own works.
Joman:
“Originally
Posted by GE
“Sabbatismos” is NOT “what sabbath means”;
“Sabbatismos” is NOT what “the rest of God”, means;
“Sabbatismos” is NOT “entering the rest of God”.
“Sabbatismos” IS, “a keeping of the Sabbath Day” (man’s doing);
Note that it does not say “sabbatismos” is ‘a keeping of the Law’;
“Sabbatismos” is “a keeping of the SABBATH DAY” WITHOUT THE LAW;
“Sabbatismos” is “a keeping of the Sabbath Day” without the Law
for the dual REASON GIVEN in verses 8 and 10: GOD’S “having entered into His
Own Rest” by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
I have no idea what nonsense your spouting here. I think that if
you were in line with the scripture you would quote it and not invent all these
sideline reasonings. Hebrews 4 is quite clear and there’s no need to go
elsewhere to explain what it says.”
GE:
I hope
the previous post will also clarify this and be my answer to something you
yourself say you do not have the knowledge or understanding nevertheless have
the cheek to call it nonsense I am spouting.
You quoted me where I quoted and expounded NOTHING but the SCRIPTURES
without the least ‘sideline reasonings’. I have long last seen
ignorance thus equalled by arrogance.
Joman:
“Originally
Posted by GE
Yes; therefore the word ‘sabbatismos’ itself, in itself through
its peculiar form or morphology, tells what it means: It means: “a keeping of
the Sabbath Day” in distinction from the Sabbath Day per se. Therefore the
writer did not write, ‘sabbaton’, the generic Nomen or ‘name’ of and for the “Sabbath
Day”; but “sabbatismos” the specific or nomenclature, for the culture, practice
or ‘science’ of “keeping the Sabbath”— ‘sabbat-ISM’.”
Your reasoning is not based on what is written. Are you reading
from the Latin vulgate or what? Not that it matters. But, so you know, there
are no words such as “sabbatismos” nor any of it’s variations as you provide,
anywhere in my Bible.”
GE:
I have
answered this through my answers immediately above. My ‘reasoning’ is based on what is written,
and I am quoting and translating into English from the Greek from the Nestle
Aland compilation of texts. Which matters absolutely because it agrees
perfectly with the Textus Receptus from which the King James Authorised Version
was translated. Of course I would not be able to know which or what Bible you
do read; but the “sabbatismos” - without the slightest ‘variations’ - comes directly and letter for
letter from the said original, Greek source of Hebrews 4:9.
Joman:
“Originally
Posted by Ge
It is good you observed, “A person doesn’t enter into a day”,
because the writer tried his utmost best to avoid such a conclusion when he
said “a keeping of the Sabbath Day remains valid for the People of God, GOD
having entered into HIS OWN, Rest” in view of the fact, “JESUS, had given them
(his) Rest, and God would never afterwards speak of another day of salvation
(for them)”. A person through grace by faith enters God’s Rest, and by faith
through grace “THEREFORE keeps the Sabbath Day”.
Your simply rejecting what Hebrews 4 tells you so you can retain
your legalism.”
GE:
Let me
answer Joman with Joman:
Quoting
Joman: “I’m talking about coming to Jesus Christ by faith, being born
again of the Spirit of God, and walking in the Spirit by faith in Jesus.
This is the rest of God. That we walk in the love of God revealed
in Jesus Christ. That God works in us to will and to do his good pleasure.
Jesus never broke the sabbath. Jesus did appear to the legalists
as breaking the sabbath rest. And, men appear to legalists to be breaking the
sabbath to this day.
Natural men reason as natural men and not according to the
revelation of God as do spiritual men.”
Joman:
“It
is hard to understand what you write. Either that’s because you are of another
language and aren’t able to well express your self or some other possibility.
So, to be clear.
If a man thinks that one day is more important than another or some other such
reasonings in the mind, let that man obey his conscience in the matter.
Let no man judge you in these matters. Stand before the Lord in faith not
doubting and serve the Lord in good conscience.
Be careful to not burden your conscience with legalism lest you fail to obey
the laws you judge yourself by.
It is better to walk in the grace of God than according to many reasonings of
legal matters.”
GE:
It’s
nice to know a fellow Christian cares about the spiritual well-being of another.
Thank you. I need it and I truly appreciate it.
To close
with, allow me to tell you WHY i believe the Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD
your God. I have just given you my FULL
and SOLE, soul’s reason. God bless you.
GE
Observer:
Are
you familar with the word If
GE:
I know you are hinting at the Subjunctive.
Are you familiar with the Subjunctive IN ANY LANGUAGE as a vehicle for
expressing strongest possible certainty?
The
writer of Hebrews himself gives the clearest imaginable EXPLANATION of his
Subjunctive, in immediate CONTEXT.
Now see if you could find any loophole in his explanation for doubting the
VERITY expressed by means of the Subjunctive he used in verse 8:
“For
if Jesus had given them rest, then would He (God - speaking all along from
verse 4 on) not after these things (referred to all along and especially
in 8a) have spoken of another day (of opportunity or redemption) .....
He (Jesus) HAVING ENTERED IN INTO HIS OWN REST AS GOD and HIMSELF from
his own works RESTED. ['ho gar eiselthohn eis tehn katapausin autou kai
autos katepausen apo tohn ergohn autou hohsper apo tohn idiohn ho theos.']
There's your reason why the supposition - "If Jesus had given them rest"
-, and the Subjunctive - "He would not have spoken" -, in
verse 8 is / are absolute surety and does not hang suspended over probability
or improbability.
18 November
2009-11-18 Gerhard Ebersöhn
Private Bag X43
Sunninghill 2157