Sunday and the Sabbath should be
observed
DT:
“Then
let us put our differences aside and say it is right that we should worship on
both the sabbath and the lords day, that way we remember both and worship twice
a week giving twice as much glory to God.”
SS:
Bottom
line.....
The 4th
commandment, the 7th day sabbath, is the test...of loyalty, towards God.
It has
ever been so, and ever shall be so.
Ezekiel 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I [am] the LORD that sanctify them.
20:19 I [am] the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them;
20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I [am] the LORD your God.
Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
66:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness ?
DT:
Adventists
believe that the 4th Commandment is the 'Seal of God” even though it was Jesus
who was sealed ...
But ..
here's EGW with another “oops” moment
Exposing
Adventism - Ellen White on the Seal of God
Did
Ellen White tell the truth about the Seal of God?
Here is
yet another example of Ellen White's intellectual dishonesty.
She
claimed that the seal of God's law is found in the fourth commandment.
This
only, of all ten, brings to view both the name and the title of the Lawgiver.
It declares him to be the Creator of the heavens and the earth, and thus shows
his claim to reverence and worship above all others. Aside from this precept,
there is nothing in the decalogue to show by whose authority the law is given.
When the Sabbath was changed by the papal power, the seal was taken from the
law. The disciples of Jesus are called upon to restore it, by exalting the
Sabbath of the fourth commandment to its rightful position as the Creator's
memorial and the sign of his authority. (Great Controversy, 1888, p. 451)
How
convenient it is that she fails to include Exodus 20:2 which emphatically
introduces the Giver of the Decalogue. Perhaps she also didn't realize that its
Author is also given in the 2nd, the 3rd, and the 5th commandment, as well as
the 4th!
FN:
“Is
there any record of Abraham observing the seventh day sabbath?”
GC:
There is no actual statement that Abraham observed the seventh-day Sabbath... however, God declared this of him: “Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”
What commandments, statutes, and laws do you suppose Abraham obeyed, since God had not written the Ten Commandments yet?
And what
was the covenant that God made with
The covenant was this: “If you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people... and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.”
The
covenant is that, If the children of
This
was, indeed, a new covenant that God had not made with any other group of
people. But that doesn't mean that God's law didn't already exist. Hence, we go
back to Abraham, who obeyed God's voice and kept His charge, His
commandments, His statutes, and His laws.
Notice
the doublet? Abraham was called upon to obey God's voice and
So, when
God made His covenant with Abraham, it was in this manner: “This is My covenant
which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: Every
male child among you shall be circumcised.” And what was God's part of the
covenant? He said, “I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will
multiply you exceedingly. Behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a
father of many nations... I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make
nations of you, and kings shall come from you.”
So, you see that the two covenants
are very closely tied together. The covenant with Abraham established that a
great nation would proceed from Abraham's loins... and the covenant with the
great nation that proceeded from Abraham's loins established that they would be
a holy nation made up of priests.
So the question still remains: What commandments, statutes, and laws did Abraham obey, since God had not written the Ten Commandments yet?
GE:
Can't
you see the answer in your own words, “since God had not written the Ten
Commandments yet”?
Must it
be the same words and same commandments to be the Law of God?
At the
creation, and God knowing the Sabbath would follow just the next day, when He
gave commandment to Adam and Eve, why did He not give the Sabbath-commandment
when He actually gave commandment? Because obedience to the Law of God is
obedience to GOD. Whatever God gives commandment of “TODAY, if ye hear my
Voice, do not harden your heart!” -- if 'today' it is the sabbath, then it is
the Sabbath; but if it is not the Sabbath for that 'today' of God's Voice
speaking, it is not the Sabbath. In that day that the Voice of God speaks the
Sabbath (into being) then that day it shall be the Sabbath. Since the Sabbath
was not spoken to Abraham, it is safe to take for granted Abraham's obedience
did not include Sabbath-keeping. The Bible tells what God actually commanded
Abraham (to leave his own country etc.). And in that, Abraham obeyed the Law of
God.
What
about the MANY generations that never had an inkling of what the Sabbath
Commandment is, or meant, yet they were the truest of God's children?
This day
- the day and era of the Kingdom and Kingship of Christ Jesus, His Voice “Thus
concerning the Seventh Day” in fact did come to all People hearing the Word of
God “in these last days .... IN THE SON”.
HOW? “Thus”:
“In the Sabbath's fullness of daylight ... there was a great earthquake, and an
angel of the Lord came down from heaven ....”Mt28:1. The Christian Sabbath is
established once for all eternity in and by the resurrection of the Lord of the
Sabbath Day on the day He obtained Divine Lordship on - the Day of HIS Triumph
and Victory over death and grave. The NEW Testament unequivocally states, it
happened “On the Sabbath” and “before the First Day of the week, which means,
that Jesus rose from the dead on the “Seventh Day the Sabbath of the LORD your
God.”
FS:
About GC, “What commandments, statutes, and laws did Abraham obey, since
God had not written the Ten Commandments yet?”
As always, a very
excellent question, G.C. I looked briefly at the Greek words and their usages
in other places and really don't know what to make of it so far. I did notice
that this verse is not the only time that God mentions such things as his
commandments and his law previous to the actual
I am
hoping that this is a “socratic” question, GC....one to which you already have
an answer. I will be very interested to see what you have to say about it.
GE:
The Ten
Commandments were not written on tables of stone to show that it would be indestructible,
but just the opposite, that it was temporary and imperfect. The first thing
Moses did with the Tables when he returned from the mountain, was to destroy
them!!
Then at
the first revelation of God's redemption of his chosen People, specifically the
Fourth Commandment was changed very significantly (Deut5). The creation-part of
it was omitted completely, and in its place came the Redemption-motive.
The
Christian should believe the Commandments of God because of God's Eternal and
unchangeable WORD - the 'VOICE' someone referred to above. God's Word of course
is Christ, and therefore, Christ is the Law of God that truly is 'the
expression of the character of God', as some WRONGLY refer to the graven in
stone Law.
There
was nothing wrong with the 'old' Law or Ten Commandments; it was only
imperfect. Paul says it has retired, and Hebrews says it grew old and therefore
faced disappearance from the scene of Christian Ethics.
Not even
the pedagogic function of the TC or general OT Law applies any more, because
Jesus Christ now is the One who draws 'all men' towards Himself.
A
Christian believing the Sabbath because of the Law, is no different from the
Jews. And what does it profit the Jews since they do not believe The One Law
Giver Who Himself Is The Law of God?
About
GC, “And
what was the covenant that God made with
And what
was the covenant that God made with
GC:
FN wrote, “I am hoping that this is a 'socratic' question, GC... one to which you already have an answer.”
Unfortunately,
we don't always have an answer... not even for ourselves... and we like
to keep it that way, because it keeps us humble and pliant. And so long as we
are humble and pliant, we can continue to learn and grow.
We
learned a long time ago that our salvation (thank God) has nothing to do with
how many answers we have. If we don't know something... or understand
something... it only means we don't know it or understand it yet. It doesn't
mean there's anything wrong with our salvation.
So, if
we don't have an answer yet... we just keep searching. And we don't search as
if our eternal life depends on it, because it doesn't. We simply file the
unanswered question in its appropriate place, knowing that with continued study
and a continued openness to the holy Spirit's leading, we will more than likely
one day discover a reasonable explanation. But, if we don't... that's okay,
too.
If a
person is driven to know every answer correctly, they will eventually succumb
to obsessive/compulsive tendencies; and (ugh!) that's no way to become like
Christ (which should be our only goal).
SDA:
About GE, “The Ten Commandments were not written on tables of stone to show
that it would be indestructible, but just the opposite, that it was temporary
and imperfect.”
That statement makes it seem that God, is imperfect Himself, that
HE makes mistakes?
Especially when the Bible, makes a very clear declaration that the
Law is....PERFECT.
GE:
You
imply I, ‘especially’, say God makes mistakes and is imperfect?
“The Law of the LORD is perfect”
(Ps19:7) which ‘Law’ is perfect only in the Perfection of the LORD. It says
not, quoting SDA, “the Law is....PERFECT”; it says not the ‘Law engraved in
stone’, is perfect! If the TC ‘engraved in stone’ were perfect, what
did the LORD need to have changed it most specifically in the Fourth
Commandment? No it says, “The Law-of-the-LORD, is perfect.” The LORD being The Law, is perfect.
Did I
say God makes mistakes?
Did I
say the Law is not perfect, not good, not holy?
Did I
say the Law does not apply for ever to everyone?
WHY
would you read these things into what I have said? Because you think I do not
believe the Sabbath or the Scriptures?
No! Because what I say does not come from your Church or from your prophetess,
let's be frank. So everyone who is not an SDA must be an enemy of God's Sabbath
Day.
Tch
tch!!
SDA:
Quoting GE, “The first thing Moses did with the Tables when he
returned from the mountain, was to destroy them!!”
Moses did this to show the people that they had broken their
promise to God.
GE:
Ja; that
as well. It cannot be otherwise, ever.
DT:
Of the 613 Commandments/Laws in the Torah, how many do you follow
SS?
Since SDA Salvation requires perfection/sinless living and perfect
obeying of YHWH's commandments (all 613 Laws)
GC:
Have you counted the number of commandments and law contained in
the Torah, Doc? Is that how you came by such a large number? Or, are you
mindlessly parroting someone else's statistic? And... if you have
counted them... how many of the sacrificial laws did you include in that
number?
FS:
GE wrote, “obedience to the Law of God is obedience to GOD. Whatever God
gives commandment of “TODAY, if ye hear my Voice, do not harden your heart!”
This portion of your post I think is very well put and I could not
agree with you more.
Do I interpret the end of your post correctly, however, that it is
your position that God has given each and every believer the commandment “today”
to keep the “seventh day sabbath”?
JD:
The way I understand this according to Heb. 3&4 is; “today” is
the sabbath day of rest in Gods salvation for those who hear Him. So whatever
day you find yourself hearing God, this is the sabbath, hopefully this is every
day. So Saturday and Sunday are no more holy than any other day.
As to the law being imperfect, the only way it is imperfect is
that it cannot save us, not because it is imperfect but because we cannot keep
it. That is why Jesus came, kept the law and died so we, and all those before
Him, can be made perfect in Him through faith and forgiveness. So the problem
is not the law, the problem is us.
To make a stab at the Question, what was the law before the ten
commandments: They were contained in the law of faith in God, from Adam until
today, faith in God has always superseded and encompassed the ten commandments.
GE:
My best
possible explanation is Jesus Christ and how God through and in Him “spake”
(Hb4:4-5). Not only Jesus' words --- but his deeds; and not only his deeds in
life, but his Final Word through resurrection from the dead. That Word from and
of God, was His Word “Thus concerning
the Seventh Day (speaking): And God the Seventh Day from all His works,
rested!” .... ‘rested’, by Jesus Christ, and by Jesus Christ in
resurrection from the dead; and by Jesus Christ in resurrection from the dead “In
Sabbath's fullness” (Mt28:1).
Mark
that this is a NEW Testament Scripture! And it is based on one event only, the truth and fact of Jesus' Christ having raised
from the dead “On the Sabbath” in
the flesh of gloried human body --- as He would
do “according to the Scriptures” of all Gods Word of all ages: “Today,
if you hear My Voice!”
So yes,
you understand me 100% correctly!
But
avoid the duplicity in your words, “Do I interpret the end of your post
correctly, however, that it is your position that God has given each and every
believer the commandment “today” to keep the “seventh day sabbath”?” : make it rather, '.... God “today” has given each and every
believer the commandment to keep the “seventh day sabbath” --- by His Word
of Law, Jesus Christ— not only by living, teaching and ministering a life of
Sabbath-keeping, but by creating it as it were originally through having raised
from the dead “In the Sabbath's fullness” - Mt28:1.
I go further
than you do, where you say, “As to the law being imperfect, the only way it is
imperfect is that it cannot save us, not because it is imperfect but because we
cannot keep it”,
because I say the Law we are here speaking of also is imperfect in ethical
sense. Which is easily seen in many respects, such as having more than one
spouse. Jesus made this very Law much heavier to bear, when He said, for
example, if you so much as hate your brother in your mind, you are his
murderer.
No, it’s
not only because the Law cannot save that it is imperfect, although that is
most true!
JD:
You seem to have missed the other two points of my post, about the
sabbath and the law of faith. Could you slow down a little and respond? Please
About, JD, “As to the law
being imperfect, the only way it is imperfect is that it cannot save us, not
because it is imperfect but because we cannot keep it”, and GC, “We've
heard this before, but we're not sure where it comes from. Would you mind
seeing if you (or anyone else reading this) could find where Scripture makes
the claim that we are incapable of keeping God's law?”
You need look no further than yourself. Do you keep the law? Did
Adam keep the law, thou shalt not eat?
GE:
You have
answered yourself so well no one could answer better, “....we are
incapable of keeping God's law”. Scripture can only confirm the truth of it.
GC:
About JD, “As to the law being imperfect, the only way it is imperfect is
that it cannot save us, not because it is imperfect but because we cannot
keep it.”
We've heard this before, but we're not sure where it comes from.
Would you mind seeing if you (or anyone else reading this) could find where
Scripture makes the claim that we are incapable of keeping God's law?
GE:
In fact,
you are dead right : that is, _dead_ right! Isn't it what this 'argument' shows
and wants to show, merely? I cannot find fault with either viewpoints. It is
true “As to the law being imperfect, the only way it is imperfect is
that it cannot save us, not because it is imperfect but because we cannot keep
it”; and it is also
true it is not a direct statement of Scripture. Only, Scripture expressly states that no one
by the law shall be justified; which is just
as good as saying that no one by the law shall be saved. The RCC of course denies this, but this is what makes of one
a Protestant.
PT:
SDA can't seem to understand that Jesus was addressing Jews in his
conversations, especially when it came to legalism and matters of the Jewish law.
Gentile converts were never told to obey the law in terms of
Jewishness. That includes Sabbath keeping:
Law and Christ....
Romans 6:14; “For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are
not under the law, but under grace.”
7:4; “Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law
by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even him who is
raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.”
7:6:”But now are we delivered from the law, that being dead
wherein we were held: that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the
oldness of the letter.”
Romans 10:4; “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness
to everyone that believeth.”
“End” in Greek is “telos” “The conclusion of an act, termination,
result, the completion of a definite point or goal.” This means that Christ
fulfilled all the law in our stead, so that we are no longer under the law, but
grace (unmerited pardon). The law had a beginning and a completion or fulfilment
through Jesus Christ.
On the other hand, the Bible nowhere teaches that the “Lord's Day”
is a reference to the first day of the week, especially, since there is no
evidence that Jesus was resurrected on the first day of the week. Sunday
observance is purely a Pagan law legislated by the
DT:
When you
talk to Rabbi's, and ask them what is the “law”? They will answer the
commandments laid down thruout the Torah! Which means the 613 commandments! Now: Which law does Paul the Apostle talk of? The 10 commandments? or the Torah (written
Law) ? Now whenever somebody is taking about the Written Law, what are they
talking of?
The
Torah!
And what
of the Oral Law?
The
Talmud and Mishnah
You see,
very specific things, that can be easily verified.
So for SDA
to say that the Law only constitutes the 10 commandments is flat out
unbiblical, since the Law constitutes the entire written law seen in the Torah!
We as
Christians are supposed to uphold the 10 commandments and live the way Christ
did, and we can see his teachings on those 10 commandments and how he applied
them in certain ways .. some more strict, others more lax than how the “Big 10”
were interpreted back 2000 years ago.
BUT
For SDA to
say that as an SDA, he must obey the “LAW”, that means one thing very precisely
... that is to follow the Written Law as seen thruout the Torah! Which is why he was happy to see my posts
showing the commandments, since he now can copy the list and see for himself
what he must obey!
GE:
About
SDA, “Moses did this to show the people that they had broken their
promise to God.”
Who
would not notice? But before this, Moses wanted to show them that they broke
the LAW of God! Here, just like this! and Moses shattered God's Law on the
ground.
So What
happened only a short while after --- of which I made mention before --- that
God Himself re-wrote that Law and specifically the Fourth, with major changes; and this last 'Version'
of it, Moses had actually put into the ark of the Covenant.
So don't say I am dissatisfied with God's Law if God Himself found reason to
adapt it to nearer to perfection!
And let
me tell you when God for the last time 'perfected' His Perfect Law: When He
raised Christ from the dead “in the Glory of the Father” --- a truth the Seventh Day Adventists
outright deny and reject!!
GE:
About JD,
“The
way I understand this according to Heb. 3&4 is; “today” is the sabbath day
of rest in Gods salvation for those who hear Him.”
I cannot
share your view.
What you
are here talking of, is God, giving his Law in Jesus Christ, when he in mercy
and love visits a soul in his lostness, to bring new life about in his heart by
giving Himself to him. “Today” is God, giving Himself to you, o man! God does not save with the
Sabbath; He saves by Himself. He is not the Sabbath; you cannot keep the God.
You cannot have peace by the Sabbath Day; God's Rest-'katapausis' is what gives peace.
Now all this, is the basis -- verses 8 and 10 -- why,
“a keeping of the Sabbath Day”-'sabbatismos' quote: “still is valid / obligatory / fast / mandatory for the People of
God”. The 'katapausis' is God's doing; the 'sabbatismos is man's duty and doing
“because of”-'gar' and the Participle of 10.
Six
hundred and thirteen commandments ... the defining exhibit of “foolish
contentions and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and VAIN”!
Let me
remind the scoffers, these commandments in their day when God commanded them,
were the “Today” of God's Voice to His
- to no estranged, but His, People.
They then, hardened the heart; today too - no different - people harden
the heart, no matter God “in these last
days to us speak through the Son ...
and God the Seventh Day from all his works, rested”.
Have you
just one small word from God through the Son for your Sunday-worship, o
Christianity of today?
About GC,
“....you
included every single sacrificial law, as well, but that's okay. So, our next
question would be... which of these 613 laws (aside from the sacrificial laws,
of course) do you have a problem with?”
What may
be the difference? Why should one have a problem with “the sacrificial laws”?
Are they not law God had given His People?
I think
it is DT saying, “The 10 Commandments are the ones written in stone and given to
Moses before the “Torah” laws were brought to the people”.
But 'the sacrificial
laws' came long before the Torah or, Ten Commandments. Genesis 3:21, 45;
and before them again, the 'moral law', Gn2:9, 24.
God's Law is God; whenever He Speaks; whatever He speaks! And God never
speaks, but He speaks through or by the Son.
About
SDA, “I mostly just looked at the 10 commandments that Jesus Christ
wrote out Himself on Mt Sinai.”
I mostly
just look at the Law of God Jesus Christ nailed to the cross Himself on Mt
Olivet. Then by faith: See Him rise glorified magnificent! “I AM” (Yahweh), “The
Beginning of the Creation of God” (Rv3:14) “And being made perfect He became the Author of eternal salvation
... being called of God an
High Priest ... according to the Law
of indestructible Life!”
[Here we
find the Son of God, 'perfected'; it does not imply He ever was not perfect.
Why, when of the (written) Law I say that it was 'not perfect' should it imply
it was less than 'holy', 'good' and 'perfect' in the sense that Paul meant it?]
It is
the only confirmation I have of God's determinating “The Seventh Day
the Sabbath of the LORD your God”.
About JD,
“The
way I understand this according to Heb. 3&4 is; “today” is the sabbath day
of rest in Gods salvation for those who hear Him. So whatever day you find
yourself hearing God, this is the sabbath, hopefully this is every day. So
Saturday and Sunday are no more holy than any other day.”
That's
all and just JD saying! hoping in vain to find one wee bit of Scripture for
saying, “hearing God, this is the sabbath”?? No, God's Sabbath day is not
'hopefully' anything, because “The Seventh Day the Sabbath of the Lord your God”
is written, not only with the Finger (or Spirit) of God, but with Word of Life: “God the Seventh Day rested” --- the 'Rest' of Life His “Own Rest as God”, and of
life-giving Rest, “The Exceeding Greatness of His Power which He worked, raising Christ from the dead and exalting Him to the Right hand (of God)”
About JD,
“As
to the law being imperfect, the only way it is imperfect is that it cannot save
us, not because it is imperfect but because we cannot keep it. That is why
Jesus came, kept the law and died so we, and all those before Him, can be made
perfect in Him through faith and forgiveness. So the problem is not the law,
the problem is us.”
This now
is sound doctrine! But in what stark contrast with just your above statements!
There's nothing 'wrong' or vague or uncertain about the Fourth Commandment
either! Why should there always be fault to find with the Sabbath Commandment
that is the most direct and clearest defined of the TEN, Commandments? It
simply is inconsistent to take all the Law of God for perfect except the
Sabbath-Commandment.
JD:
“To make a stab at the Question, what was the law before the ten commandments:
They were contained in the law of faith in God, from Adam untill today, faith
in God has always superseded and encompassed the ten commandments.”
GE:
In one stab at the question, what was the law before the ten commandments?:
They were contained in the Law-Word of God -- John 1:1-5 Who has always
superseded and encompassed ALL written word of God -- the Scriptures; “Who
alone has immortality” and Whose Perfection in every regard always has far
exceeded that of 'known' or 'revealed Law'; Who, in fact, Himself, IS the ONLY
Known and 'Reavealed Law' of God in Person. “That God may give you THE SPIRIT
OF WISDOM AND REVELATION THAT YE MAY KNOW WHAT IS ...”, Eph.1:17f.
If after
all I could not pose this challenge to myself and everybody else, Ephesians 1
especially verse 17 to the end, verse 23, IS A SABBATH DAY'S-SCRIPTURE, I have
wasted the greater part of my life on vanity and sinful aspiring.
Paul
somewhere says that if there can be found a law that can make perfect, a law
that can give life will have been found ---- or words to the effect.
Now I say, there is such a 'Law' found “Whereby if a man do, he SHALL live”:
Jesus Christ.
Yehushuan:
|
Gerhard
Ebersöhn wrote: |
|
----
or words to the effect. |
(As all cults become started by such.)
GE:
Now what 'cult' are you insinuating may I start? A Reformed, Calvinist,
Protestant, Christian, Sabbath-believing, 'cult'? Then Calvin - had he not been
so indecisive about the Sabbath - must have been its beginner, not me!
Pete:
“SS can't seem to understand that Jesus was addressing Jews in his conversations,
especially when it came to legalism and matters of the Jewish law.
Gentile converts were never told to obey the law in terms of Jewishness. That
includes Sabbath keeping”
GE:
Here's another Pete speaking for Pete, claiming he speaks for the Scriptures or
even for God.
Here again is the true legalist making it an absolute prerequisite some law
MUST be given unless any Law of God be valid.
Here again is the blind who WILL not read “The Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD” and
not, the sabbath of the Jews or of 'Jewishness';
Who WILL not understand God GAVE His Sabbath Day - not gave it AWAY -
Who will not TAKE, “the Sabbath to be a sign that I-AM-GOD” -- or God is not
God were the Sabbath not sign of it.
That is Scripture, friend, about GOD --- not about the People of God.
Pete:
“SS can't seem to understand that Jesus was addressing Jews in his
conversations, especially when it came to legalism and matters of the Jewish
law.”
GE:
And Pete can't seem to understand that Jesus when addressing Jews, addressed
ALL mankind who in every respect are of the same weak and beggarly constitution
since “ALL have sinned in the one” forebear, Adam; and that he can't seem to
understand especially when it comes to legalism and matters of knowing better
than God.
'Legalism' is nothing than knowing better than God; it has got nothing to do
with willing to love and follow after God --- which desires after all, were put
there inside a man, by God or was never put there inside him.
Pete:
The
Sabbath is Jewish. It is part of the “oracles of God” committed onto them, the “law
and the prophets” (Old Testament), the oral tradition, and the temple.
SS:
Tell
me....how can the 7th day be 'jewish', when it was created some 2300+
years...before the first Jew (Israelite) ever appeared ?
Also...if the 7th day sabbath was Jewish....then God, the creator of
EVERYTHING, is also Jewish.
Pete:
Romans 3:1; “What advantage then hath the Jew? Or what profit is there in
circumcision?
2; Much in every way: chiefly, because unto them were committed the oracles of
God.”
Romans 2:29; “But he is a Jew which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that
of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men,
but of God.”
Galatians 4:10; “Ye observe days months and times, and years. V.11; I am afraid
of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain.” This verse applies to
Gentile holidays, as well as Jewish holy days.
Galatians 3:19; “ Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of
transgressions, till the seed (Jesus, John 1:17)) should come to whom the
promise was made;”
Galatians 3:13; “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law,”
The
Sabbath is Jewish. It is part of the “oracles of God” committed onto them, the “law
and the prophets” (Old Testament), the oral tradition, and the temple.
Romans 3:1; “What advantage then hath the Jew? Or what profit is there in
circumcision?
2; Much in every way: chiefly, because unto them were committed the oracles of
God.”
Romans 2:29; “But he is a Jew which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that
of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men,
but of God.”
Galatians 4:10; “Ye observe days months and times, and years. V.11; I am afraid
of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain.” This verse applies to
Gentile holidays, as well as Jewish holy days.
Galatians 3:19; “ Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of
transgressions, till the seed (Jesus, John 1:17)) should come to whom the
promise was made;”
Galatians 3:13; “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law,”
1 Timothy1:5-7; “Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart,
and of a good conscience, and faith unfeigned: 6 From which some having swerved
have turned aside unto vain jangling; 7 Desiring to be teachers of the law;
understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.”
The law creates lawyers, God's Spirit creates saints.
GE:
Pete:
“Galatians 4:10; “Ye observe days months and times, and years. V.11; I am
afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain.” This verse applies
to Gentile holidays, as well as Jewish holy days.”
GE:
I'm glad you have noticed “this verse applies to Gentile holidays”. It is very
unfortunate you cannot discriminate what belongs to God never can be heathen,
'gentile' and pagan, like Sunday and its sacredness to the Church! “MY Sabbaths”,
is God's Word, not of men, ever! Besides, the context CLEARLY excludes
everything not 'gentile'. (Read book 4/3, of 'The Lord's Day in the Covenant of
Grace', find it here: http://www.biblestudents.co.za
Pete:
“Galatians 3:19; “ Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of
transgressions, till the seed (Jesus, John 1:17)) should come to whom the
promise was made;”
GE:
How true! Now Jesus Christ has taken over the role of the Law and has actually
taken in its place! What Divine Confirmation of God's Law!
Pete:
Galatians 3:13; “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law,”
GE:
Thank God, Now we are saved and have eternal life - the life of service and
submission to the Living Law-Word of God, Jesus Christ. May we never dishonour
Christ; may we always honour His Commandments!
because ...
1 Timothy1:5-7; “Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart,
and of a good conscience, and faith unfeigned: 6 From which some having swerved
have turned aside unto vain jangling; 7 Desiring to be teachers of the law;
understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.” Or do we
disobediently swerve and turn aside from God's Law unto vain jangling? Do we
desire to be teachers of the law rather than doers of it? We neither seem to
understand the Law of God or what it says or affirms, and just do as we like
ourselves, never giving it a thought what is the thought of God?
The law creates legalists, God's Spirit creates Christians.
GE:
What
makes the great difference, and exalts the Sabbath to higher honour it had had
before, is the Lord of the Sabbath Day who on it, in it, yea even by it, rose
from the dead. This is where I place the beginnings of the Sabbath of the LORD
your God --- where the Lord obtained Lordship indeed, even through having
become Lord by Victory over death, sin and the powers of darkness, turmoil and
nothingness -- from which even drew and received both the creation-Sabbath and
the Sabbath of the Exodus their being, essence, content and meaning. In
Christ's resurrection “BY THE EXCEEDING GREATNESS OF GOD'S POWER”, becomes visible
all the works of God by which He “finished”, “blessed”, “sanctified”, “rested”
and “revived” : IN LORDSHIP.
“God thus concerning the Seventh Day spake”. God NEVER thus concerning the
First Day spake!
If ever there had been a Christian thing not 'Jewish' but 'Christian', it
was “the-Seventh-Day-Sabbath-of-the-LORD-your-God” of God's speaking
through Jesus Christ in resurrection from the dead of Him.
Pete:
Law
keeping
Acts 21:20 “Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe;
and they are all zealous of the law: 21 And they are informed of thee, that
thou teachest all Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying
that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither walk after the
customs.”
V.25 “As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded
that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from
things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled and from
fornication.”
Galatians 2:16; “Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law,
but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that
we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law:
for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”
V.20; “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ
liveth in me, and gave himself for me.” 21: I do not frustrate the grace of
God: for if righteousness came by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”
Chapter 3:2; “This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the
works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3: Are ye so foolish? Having
begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?”
V.11: “But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is
evident: for the just shall live by faith:”
V.13: “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse
for us:”
V. 19: “Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions,
till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by
angels in the hand of a mediator.”
Chapter 5:4; Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever you are
justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.”
Paul understood law keeping better than anyone. He was a Pharisee of Pharisees.
Nowhere did he instruct gentile Christians to observe any day as a Sabbath.
RST:
The sabbath is the permanent rest that the saints have. They join God in his
eternal rest. God's work of creation was not the actual work of creation. Such
a thing is nothing at all to an infinitely powerful deity. No, the work of
creation was made possible because of love sufficient to die for the creation,
love that would take Jesus to the cross, to justify sinners. The creation story
of Genesis is really prophecy of the moment that Jesus cried “It is finished!”
The 'sixth day' then came to a close, and God entered his eternal rest.
So the saints rest from the work of attempting the impossible, fulfilling the
law, that law now being natural law, there being no-one alive now who has lived
under Mosaic Law. That continuous, indeed eternal sabbath is the rest provided
by God in Christ, who fulfilled the law (and the Law), and is given by faith.
There was, in Mosaic Law, a foreshadowing of the permanent, real sabbath, as
there was for many other aspects of Jesus' characteristics and provisions. This
was a periodic sabbath of literal rest, given in the desert, along with manna.
It had the effect of giving the Israelites time to contemplate, particularly
the desert experience, as well as their patriarchs and their experiences of
God. Here in this sabbath command was hope, promise of release from the
impossibility of fulfilling the moral law that had pertained before Sinai,
release to be provided by the promised Messiah.
GE:
How do
you expect someone who at least tries to be honest to do this? First he will
have to be honestly persuaded “the sabbath and the lords day” are different
days!
Sunday
... there's nothing in this world or above the Church worships like it.
Let as
for the sake of argument assume Jesus did break the Sabbath Law, would that
disannul the Sabbath or its commandment?
You talk
so easy of 'natural law' 'still stands', but what is it to kill? If God command
you to kill, does God 'break' his own Law? he does! If God commands the prophet
to marry a *One Who Practices the World's Oldest Profession*, does He 'stand by
looking at his' servant break the Law? Does God participate in breaking his own
Law? He does! Now does that annull the Law of God or make of God a sinner?
Blasphemous thought!
So just the same about the thought Jesus 'broke' the law. He never did anything
of the sort, and your idea He did, is as blasphemous --- which thing is SIN if
you want to know what sin is!
Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath Law like He fulfilled all the Law of God -- He “MAGNIFIED”
the Law of God -- every little part of it. HOW? By HIMSELF BECOMING THE LAW OF
GOD.
It's only then we mortal sinners can conclude, Yes, Look at Christ breaking the
Law - see Him offering up Himself, and making Himself for our sakes, sin. Then
see, HOW he breaks the Law and destroys it: See Him crucified the LAMB -
according to the LAW OF GOD - crucified. HERE, is the Law broken in the utter
sense of destruction and abrogation and annulment --- by Divine Omnipotence.
Then see where 'magnified' -- this very LAW OF GOD --- the same, the only, the
all else exclusive LAW OF GOD - no mere 'natural law remaining' - but the LAW
OF GOD EXALTED, MAGNIFIED, PERFECTED, ETERNALISED, FINALISED: in fact,
instituted originally, 'commanded' as for the first time EVER ::: Christ in
resurrection from the dead.
Now you mortal sinners, where is your derision, insult and taunting of the Holy
Law of God, NOW??
NOW, since the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, He is the Law of God
--- which he previously for eternity HAD BEEN.
But all of a sudden it's no longer the Seventh Day by Christ Jesus given and
created, but another, of sinners' wilful self-love?
Tell me another one!
“Is there
any evidence that Noah observed the sabbath day? And “
What would any believer need prove of it for?
But look how throughout the history covered in the Bible, God providentially as
it were RESERVED his Sabbath Day for the day of salvation!
Even the creation-Sabbath arrives on the scene of createdness like a gift of
God's grace and love, through and after His creating against all powers of
nothingness, chaos, darkness and unrest. The all-peace scenareo of the first
Sabbath pictured by the sabbatharians is far from reality. They see it such an
'innocent' thing, they cannot grasp the fact the Sabbath was Adam's first day
outside of Eden -- Adam and Eve's first day as sinners. So the sabbatharians
cannot stomach the thought that already on the first Sabbath Day, God
slaughtered life to provide for sin - indeed, on the Seventh Day Sabbath
directly after He created -- for the redemption of sinners.
And so did it go on. The Sabbath was re-discovered to serve God's People when
He brought them out from
Then to redeem His People from the idolatrous rule of Athaliah; then to return
them from the exile; then at last, for the salvation unto eternal life through
Jesus Christ Himself; then again on the new Earth.
Therefore forgetfulness of God's Sabbath Day in itself is the Herald of the Day
of God's salvation. “Lift up your heads, for the day is near”.
Here is sure sign of the end-times and day of redemption, the day of Jesus'
'second coming': That the Sabbath of the LORD your God is forgotten, despised
and rejected and trampled upon.
GE:
rst:
“The sabbath is the permanent rest that the saints have.”
GE:
So? Hi hi! Have never read about that! Would like to _read_ it? You got secret
copies of the Scriptures? Or perhaps secret powers of exposition?
“The righteous _studieth_ to answer.” Pr15:28.
PLAIN Scriptures for me, thanks!
rst:
“The sabbath is the permanent rest that the saints have. They join God in his
eternal rest.”
GE:
Now that, might make a litlle bit more sense, if one knew not your real
intentions!
The Sabbath permanently, is a 'rest' by 'keeping' or 'obeying', that the saints
are obliged to God, to DO, WHEN they join together in COMMANDED, that is in “HOLY”
assembling, on God's own appointed Day for doing so, and through Congregational
worship, 'join with God' in his eternal rest attained and provided for the
saints through and in, Jesus Christ.
rst:
“God's work of creation was not the actual work of creation.”
GE:
Here's another of those little precious pieces of rst-wisdom. Now me thought,
who has done “the actual work of creation”?
“O LORD, truly I am Thy servant : Thou has loosed my bonds.” Ps115:16-17 Fruit
of this 'bondage' that is a 'loosening' of all bondage: “I will offer to Thee
the sacrifice of thanksgiving, and will call upon the Name of the LORD; I will
pay my vows unto the LORD NOW (in this life) in the presence of all His People
(the Church congregating in Sabbaths' worship) in the courts of the LORD'S
House (The Sabbathly Assembly of Saints) in the midst of thee, o (spiritual)
Jerusalem. Praise ye the LORD” for He has brought us into His Own Rest through
Jesus Christ.
That, is 'keeping of the Sabbath Day'.
That has gone rotten bad in Christian worship by a day of men's wilfulness.
rst:
“No, the work of creation was made possible because of love sufficient to die
for the creation, love that would take Jesus to the cross, to justify sinners.
The creation story of Genesis is really prophecy of the moment that Jesus cried
“It is finished!” The 'sixth day' then came to a close, and God entered his
eternal rest.”
GE:
Here rst has hit gold - the gold of truth and no fool's gold!
But read carefully through the creation-account, and you will notice that after
the creation of Adam and Eve on the sixth day, the evening had come, and the
Seventh Day had started, when God came to visit them, and called after them,
and provided sacrifice for clothing their nakedness. Their glory was short,
says the Scriptures. God 'created' - through love, 'created' the Seventh
Day for the salvation of sinners. On that very night man was driven out of the
The creation story of Genesis is really prophecy of the moment that
Jesus was raised from the dead. Thereby, came to a close and finishing
to “ALL the works of God”, and God entered into his eternal rest, on the,
through His love created Sabbath Day, the ONLY day “God Thus concerning
(prophetically) spake”, ever, the “Seventh Day”. [/b]
rst:
“So the saints rest from the work of attempting the impossible, fulfilling the
law,”
GE:
Have you ever seen a godly 'saint' that would do that? Rather such person would
try his utter best to fufill or obey the Law of his Lord. And such 'saint'
shall always be the first to acknowledge his coming short in his efforts, and
point you to the redeeming truth, his Saviour vicariously, fulfilled all the
Law of God in his place, thus confirming for ever the sanctity, goodness and
holiness of all the Law of God. Let there be no misjudgment here!.
But in
all fairness to the Law of God, dear rst, would you have said these horrible
things of God's Law if the words, “Seventh Day” were not contained therein?
rst:
“that law now being natural law,”
GE:
'Natural law' --- we no longer live in the age of enlightenment - the
'enlightenment' of that age long since having been shown to have been utter blindness.
Nowadays, 'natural law' means things like '
Or, .natural law' should mean the law of man's, o, so vastly improved 'nature',
he has in his own eyes reached perfection and has no need of God or his
revelation any more.
But I admit that if you take 'natural law' as your standard and measure for
redemption, I am in no position to argue with you, and everything you say, must
irreprovably be correct. But it's a stranger to my understanding and feeling,
I'm afraid. So all left I possibly could do, is to confess that I believe in
God and His Word through Jesus Christ, His Holy, His only, and His eternal,
Law.
|
I am
able to do discussion only for as long as the only standard and test of
beliefs are the Scriptures. |
SS:
The bottom line
falls in line with what Romans 6:16 says........
6:16 Know ye not,
that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are
to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto
righteousness ?
QUESTION: Where is any command found in the Bible, to obey the
observance of Sunday, in honor of Christ's resurrection ?
Notice, I didn't ask that about the 7th day sabbath ?
GE:
For sure
yes, Silversurfer, but WHERE does the bottom line really fall in what Romans
6:16 says........
6:16 “Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his
servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience
unto righteousness”?
Let me fill in: “Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to
obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death WHILE THE
STRENGTH OF SIN IS THE LAW, or of obedience unto righteousness WHILE
RIGHTEOUSNESS IS THE RIGHTEOUS ONE, JESUS CHRIST”?
In other words: Is our allegiance to the impersonal, cold, dead and killing
letter-'Law' --- do we 'Sabbatise' like the Jews who ALSO 'obey' the Law, as
Ignatius says, “not according to Christ”;
OR
Is our allegiance to the Person, who so loved, He gave Himself for the blotting
out of our sins and death, and rose from the dead again unto our
justification and life? Do we 'Sabbatise', as Ignatius also says, “for the
Lord's LIFE”, or because He rose from the dead?
What in itself, is our motivation for our keeping of God's Sabbath Day?
That's where the difference - the 'change' to the Law of God - came in! Christ
changed that, from the Law of the Fourth Commandment, to the Law of His
Resurrection.
Christians realised this from long ago, but were ashamed to be like the Jews
because they kept the Sabbath. So they stole this underlying and basic truth
from God's Sabbath Day, and attributed it to the Sun's Day, so hypocritical
they became. They were too ashamed to renounce the Christian Faith altogether,
so they 'christianised' or 'baptised', the pagan day of the sun's glory and
worship.
To this very day Christians will defend their error as hung their salvation on
it; they will cut and mutilate the Word of God, the Scriptures, for their
saving face in the eyes of the world.
This is the 'bottom line'. True allegiance; and the true Christian's should not
be to the Law the Jews still worship, but to Christ whom the Christians
worship.
rst:
“promise of release from the impossibility of fulfilling the moral law “
GE:
Do you realise what you say? 'release from the impossibility...' That means, if
I at all can read, making it possible to fulfil or obey the moral law?
Just an example, dear rst, of how you loose track of your own thoughts, it
seems. And all this trouble, just because of those two noisome words, 'Seventh
Day'. tch tch.
I say,
in defiance of giants of the Faith like John Calvin, take from the Fourth
Commandment the two words, “Seventh Day”, and you have cut from it all 'moral
law', morality and 'spirituality', and have made of it a carnal law of man's
stubbornness, arrogance, wilfulness and self-pleasing and self-glorification.
JM:
Phil 3:17
2 Thess 3:9
1 Tim 4:12
These are just a couple of scriptures which quote we are to follow the example
the disciples left for us. Their example through Acts was explicit especially
in 5:42 (just one of many scriptures) “And DAILY in the temple and in every
house they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ” and scriptures are
clear in that we are to follow this example. We do know they did gather on the
'sabbath' but the point needs to be made they also gathered on the other days
also, even Sunday. So worshipping on Sunday and everyday is following the
example left for us.
RST:
This is true, except that there was no day named 'Sunday'. Jews would have been
horrified at the thought of naming a day after the sun, or planets, which were
associated with pagan gods. They had no names for days, they simply gave days
numbers, like 'the first day of the week', 'the second day of the week'. One
never hears of a call for a return to this pure, and desirable Jewish practice.
There was no command to meet on Mosaic sabbaths, anyway, and
sabbath-supporters are stretching the truth somewhat in this matter. The
sabbath (rest) was primarily for staying at home and resting, though
later, specific meetings were arranged on sabbaths.
A week was not necessarily of seven days for members of the early church. The
Roman Empire (other than Judaea) had an eight day week at that time, and
non-Jewish Christians in, say, Rome or Ephesus would have had difficulty in
keeping a seventh day rest, without travelling or lighting a fire. There must
be few advocates of seventh day sabbaths today who keep them themselves. There
is no reason at all for any nation today to organise its schedules into seven
day cycles.
MTT:
Didn't the Jews adopt Babylonian names for the months of the year after they
went into captivity?
JM:
I believe this is true, ther Jews adopted many things from other cultures. As
for as what biblical can be proven, the bible speaks of Hellinistic Jews. Were
these not Jews who adopted Greek culture into their own lives? Even in the OT
the Jews were shown to have adopted rituals from others cultures.
RST:
'Everyone
was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the
apostles. All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling
their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. Every day they
continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their
homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying
the favour of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those
who were being saved.' Ac 2:43-47 NIV
The Holy Spirit, filling the first disciples, stimulated desire for constant
association and the fellowship that is enjoyed by those so filled. While they
obviously had employment to occupy much of their time, they still succeeded in
meeting every day, to pray, to read Scripture, to break bread. This contrasts
with the practices of many who lay claim to Christian faith now. Many meet just
once in seven days, and then briefly, and in a highly formalised way in which
there is little if any fellowship, where every word spoken by the majority is
recited from a written source. One can reasonably suppose that the
practitioners of this format, particularly its organizers, do not have the Holy
Spirit, and probably have no intention of permitting Him into their meetings.
MTT:
I'm
missing the point of your post in response to my comment about Jewish use of
Babylonian names for the months of the year. If they were “horrified” at the
thought of using pagan names for the days of the week would they not also have
been “horrified” at the thought of using pagan names of the months?
RST:
'They
devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the
breaking of bread and to prayer.' Ac 2:42 NIV
MTT:
I agree
with what you're saying. It seems to run counter to the idea that the Jews
would have been “horrified” at adopting (at least some) pagan nomenclature.
(Why would they be “horrified” at the thought of calling a day by a pagan name
when they called the months by pagan names?) This is what I was hoping rst
would address.
James:
Phil 3:17
2 Thess 3:9
1 Tim 4:12
These are just a couple of scriptures which quote we are to follow the example
the disciples left for us. Their example through Acts was explicit especially
in 5:42 (just one of many scriptures) “And DAILY in the temple and in every
house they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ” and scriptures are
clear in that we are to follow this example. We do know they did gather on the
'sabbath' but the point needs to be made they also gathered on the other days
also, even Sunday. So worshipping on Sunday and everyday is following the
example left for us.
GE:
2 Thess 3:9,
In 2 Thessalonians, believers are told to work for their living. “We hear that
there are some who walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are
busybodies. Them we command that in quietness they work, and eat their own
bread. ... And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and
have no company with him.”
I suppose they were busybodies in the temple and Synagogues, pretending they
taught and preached Christ ‘DAILY’. They could have fooled men; but not God!
Their ‘daily’ worship, the Apostle deemed ‘disoderliness’, and no following the
“ensample unto you to follow us”. (9)
Paul says, these fellows should not think they could go to the Christian
assemblies to find food and clothing there, like you make it look. No, Paul
says they must “eat their own bread” in their own houses. And in another place,
Paul says if a confessor doesn’t provide for his own household, he is worse
than a gentile.
So, either you have the cat by the tail with regard to Christian ‘daily
worship’, or you very well are aware you stand judged guilty concerning the
Sabbath Commandment to you, if you are of the true “People of God” for whom “a
keeping of the Sabbath Day remains valid”.
James:
Phil
3:17, 2 Thess 3:9, 1 Tim 4:12, These are just a couple of scriptures which we
are to follow the example the disciples left for us. ....
through Acts .... explicit especially in 5:42 (just one of many scriptures) “And
DAILY in the temple and in every house they ceased not to teach and preach
Jesus Christ” and scriptures are clear in that we are to follow this example”.
GE:
1Timothy 4:12,
“Be thou an example of the believers , in word, in conversation, in charity, in
spirit, in faith, in purity, till I come.”
This, you say, was as the example of the apostles “through Acts .... explicit
especially in 5:42 (just one of many scriptures) “And DAILY in the temple and
in every house they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ” and scriptures
are clear in that we are to follow this example”. You chose 5:42 (which you
misinterpreted) but especially, chose to choose not, the ‘many scriptures’ in
Acts, like, 13:42, 16:13, 18:4, where many Seventh Day Sabbath’s and many times
of their observance by the apostles and other, especially heathen believers,
are mentioned as exemplary apostolic precedents for generations of believers to
follow after.
The Word of God is sharper than any two edged sword.
But, observe you, how that the apostle Paul in the words of this verse, employs
practical, liturgical, Congregational, activities of Communal worship in an age
long after the beginning of the Church on Pentecost, as “an example of (1) the
believers , (2) in word, (3) in conversation, (4) in charity, (5) in spirit, (6)
in faith, (7) in purity”— things the very fibre of Christian Congregational
worship while it no longer in the least was possible or desirable “daily” or “in
the temple” or “in every house” or without “cease”, “to teach and preach Jesus
Christ”, but in which time in the history of the Church of Jesus Christ the
exact same practices and faith were maintained in Congregational worship, so
that it is impossible to imagine any of it or just part of it being maintained
in the Church without the Church practicing its fundamental and essential
beliefs and life, on one certain explicit chosen as well as mentioned day of
its life, which only could have been the Seventh Day Sabbath.
Now whether you might say, no, these things were those the Church practiced on
Sundays, it still would be your admitting the Church no longer at all – if it
ever did – congregationally, “daily” worshiped, but weekly only worshiped.
This illustrates what I times without counting have stressed, that the Sabbath
is constantly the axiomatic presupposed of Christian Church life, throughout
the New Testament, so that it in fact is surprising we do find direct mention
of it in its pages. And so that, even if nowhere mention had been made of the
Sabbath, it’s keeping by the Church would still have been the most obvious and
natural thing to imagine and without any doubt to accept.
And this presupposition underlies Paul’s every reference in this epistles of
his to Timothy, in 1:3 to 11 for example, where what Paul is saying, may be
summarised in his own words: “We know that the Law is good, if a man use it
lawfully .... according to the Gospel of our blessed God which was committed to
my trust.”
Never ever accuse Paul of having broken that trust in any respect! “Knowing
this, that the Law is .... for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and
for the sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers, .... for whoremongers
....”, and, - we may add because it is contained in the Law – for Sabbath
breakers and Sabbath despisers. The Law is for any such, as a judgment, for no
one is saved by the Law, but everyone is condemned by the Law so that no one
can boast, but in Christ in Whom he has been shown saving grace through faith
and purity and abstention from – as an example – breaking of the Sabbath-law.
Pete:
Nowhere in Scripture were Gentile Christians instructed to observe the seventh
day Sabbath, by Paul, or anyone else in authority.
Nowhere in Scripture were Gentile Christians instructed to replace seventh day
observance with Sunday observance (now called Lord's Day), by Paul, or anyone
else in authority.
Gentile converts under Paul observed neither as a special weekly day of rest
and obligation.
GE:
GE:
So Pete is a legalist; a legalist is one who insists there must be a spelled
out loud Law against or for something before it is obligatory; before one's
observance becomes obedience.
The Law is there --- still and for ever --- _against_ Sabbath-breakers. The
obedient, the believers, the Christians, do not need the Law for obeying the
Voice of God, which is the Son through Whom God in these last days spake ....TO
US”!
Pete:
“Gentile converts under Paul observed neither as a special weekly day of rest
and obligation.”
GE:
Not both, yes!
But certainly, the (Seventh Day ) Sabbath! In fact, it is impossible to prove
they missed a single Sabbath Day, Sabbath-keeping being the absolute
presupposed of all Christian worship all through the NT.
Pete:
“Nowhere in Scripture were Gentile Christians instructed to observe the seventh
day Sabbath, by Paul, or anyone else in authority.”
GE:
It all depends on how you define 'instructed'. Did Jesus 'instruct' --- as
though written legal 'law' --- any of his disciples to follow Him? No! The
'Law' of Christ is Christ Himself, and the power of the Gospel to persuade and
convince --- and, _let obey_!
In the same manner - who can deny - is the Christian 'lured' as it were by the
mercies of our loving Lord, to worship Him on the Sabbath Day as His Church. It
needs no written code, although that Code in fact is written in the form and
scope of all the Old Testament and New Testament - which both without any
contradiction is the Word of the Will of God to all believers of all times.
I say, _both_ OT and NT is the Word of the Will of
God to all believers of all times:- The Old in the New; and the New in the Old.
This is the Word of God - His 'Law' - that cannot be broken! This is the Word
of God wherein you will find the Sabbath and its keeping without distinction or
difference in both Old and New Testaments. Therefore it is only the (Seventh
Day) Sabbath obligatory for Believers, whether of Old Testament times or of New
Testament times.
The Gospels reveal these truths and principles with more emphasis on
the Seventh Day Sabbath than anywhere else in all of Scriptures! The Gospels
also are the latest and most condensed and pithy statements of Christian Faith.
They show; they prove; they improve; and they demand, a following after Christ
wherein and whereof the Sabbath and its observance tower over all other demands
and commandments to Believers as the Body of Christ's Own, the Church.