Three days and three nights
Joe Viel answered by
Gerhard Ebersöhn
Fourth delivery
Joe Viel:
3 days/3 nights
Y'shua said He'd spend 3
days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth. Had he died on a Wednesday, He
would have had to have risen BEFORE Saturday Evening to satisfy the "3
days 3 nights" requirement. Thus Sunday morning would have been the 4th
day, beyond the 3 days in which they have a window to apply the perfumes to the
dead body. But the Word tells us in Mark
16:9 that "Y'shua rose early on the first [day] of the week", not
BEFORE Saturday night, not Saturday night, but on or after Sunday morning had
arrived. So His body was still in the grave Saturday night. If He died on a
Wednesday, His body would have spent Wednesday night, Thursday night, Friday
night and Saturday night in the grave - that's 4 nights!
But if He died on a
Thursday afternoon, you have Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights as 3 nights.
You have all day Friday and Saturday and He died at 3pm on Thursday. That
wasn't just 3-5 hours of daytime death, but since there was darkness from 12
noon to 3pm, it was an entire day of being dead, since the darkness lifted when
He gave up His spirit and a 'day', by the Biblical definition, is defined by
the presence of light or darkness, not by the passage of a certain number of
hours. (See Genesis chapter 1)
Matthew
12:40 tells us He spent 3 days and 3 nights, not 3 nights and 3 days. The
first "day" of His death preceded the first "night" of His
death. You have to count the nights first to go with a Wednesday crucifixion
and you have to eliminate a night to go with a Friday crucifixion.
Does the order the
"days/nights" are mention matter? Possible not. One wouldn't jump to
that conclusion if the phrase only appeared once in scripture. But it's
reported as "3 days and 3 nights" in several places in scripture, not
just one. The rabbis have often said that there are places in scripture where
order is indicative. For example, Genesis / Bereshit chapter 1 says the
choronology of creation was plants>animals>man, but chapter 2 gives it as
plants>man>animals. Perhaps this is because both where created at the
same time, and this is indicating by reporting it with one order one time and
another order another time. If Y'shua died on a Wednesday, then why isn't His
death listed as lasting "3 nights and 3 days" in at least ONE of the
accounts in which it appears?
Why The Resurrection had
to be 3 days/3 nights but still less than 72 hours
Had Y'shua been buried
on a Wednesday it would have been a serious violation of Jewish custom to have
waited until Sunday to have gone to the grave. Jewish custom demands a burial
within 3 days of a death. Once someone is laid to rest, the grave is not
revisited after 3 full days have expired. To bury someone after 3 days have
expired since they died or disturb the grave thereafter is considered a
desecration by Jewish custom.
The Bible tells us
"You [God] will not let your Holy One see decay" (Acts
2:27, Acts
13:35). A corpse begins decaying after 72 hours, thus any crucifixion
involving more than a 72 hour span would be ruled out. That would eliminate a
Wednesday crucifixion, since even a Saturday evening Resurrection is more than
72 hours after the death/burial of Y'shua. He had to have been buried 30-60
minutes before Wednesday Evening arrived, since Joseph, Nicodemus, and the two
Mary's had to do work after He was buried and before the Sabbath came. (They
had to walk home before sundown of the Sabbath.) In order to avoid violating
the Sabbath, His body would have had to been placed in the tomb far enough
BEFORE sunset they could return home before sunset - or at least close enough
to home to be within a Sabbath Day's Journey, which would be within 2-4,000
cubits (slightly over half a mile to a mile for you Americans out there)
outside of their own "camp". Yeshua was killed "outside the camp"
[of
The women didn't finish
annointing His body, but they didn't realize that someone else already had done
so and completed Jewish custom in this manner. The annointing was done in Mark
14:2-8.
Now how does Jewish
tradition count days? The Talmud says
"part of a day is
like a whole day" (Talmud, Pesachim 4a - See also Shabbat 9.3 of the
Now this Talmud quote
appears in The Second Book of Jewish Why in explaining how to count the number
of days for mourning for the dead. Here's what it says:
"If a burial is
completed just before nightfall and the mourner simply removes his shoes in the
cemetary as a token sign that mourning has begun, this counts as the first day
of mourning"
and elsewhere the same
author also says:
"If a mourner sits
shiva for as little as one hour on the day of the funeral, that is considered
as one full day of shiva" immediately after citing the teaching of the
Talmud in Pesachim 4a as well. (The Jewish Book of Why , page 69)
This rule is about as
close as you're going to get to a rule on how to count the time, since there's
no Jewish tradition on how to count the time spent by dead Saviors. But the
parallels on how many days mourners are required to mourn for the dead after
they died would certainly be counted the same way.
So the Day He died on
the cross, even though it was a few hours before nightfall, would have counted
as a "day" in the "3 days, 3 nights" count of things. Over
and over again, He says "3 days and 3 nights" and never "3
nights and 3 days". So we start the count of the days first, then the
nights, which could only be done for a Thursday Resurrection.
Also, since ANY PART of
the evening would count as a "night", He would have had to have Risen
BEFORE Saturday night if He died on a Wednesday afternoon. Thus, He would have
had to have Risen on the Sabbath, not AFTER the Sabbath. Yet the Word tells us
in Mark
16:9 that "Y'shua rose early on the first [day] of the week", not
BEFORE Saturday night, not Saturday night, but Sunday morning. So His body was
still in the grave Saturday night.
Joe Viel:
“3 days/3 nights
Y'shua said He'd spend 3
days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth. Had he died on a Wednesday, He
would have had to have risen BEFORE Saturday Evening to satisfy the "3
days 3 nights" requirement.”
GE:
So what do you
say? You say, “Had he died on a” Thursday,
“He would have had to have risen BEFORE Saturday
Evening to satisfy the "3 days 3 nights" requirement.” But
would Joe Viel or anyone else admit it? You
bet they won’t! Why won’t they? Because that “He would
have had to have risen BEFORE Saturday Evening” is the only possibility of both the
‘Thursday-Resurrection’ fundamental and that “Y'shua
said He'd spend 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth”. Why
won’t the Sundayists admit? Because they
want it – they must have it at any cost – that Jesus rose on a Sunday! But here the true logical implication and
consequence of any and all ‘Sunday-resurrection’ theories emerge inadvertently
but just as inevitably for being contrary simplest of logic and reality. So
what in the end do they do to get it that Jesus rose from the dead “In
Sabbath’s daylight”? (Mt28:1a,b,c) We
shall see.
Joe Viel:
“Thus Sunday morning would have been the 4th day, beyond the
3 days in which they have a window to apply the perfumes to the dead body.”
GE:
According to the
logic Joe Viel here applied, even his logical thinking becomes
questionable. As I have before shown, If
Jesus on Thursday 3 p.m. died (which He did), then Thursday MUST be counted the
WHOLE Fifth Day of the week, “night and day”, for having been the first of the
prophetic “three days”— on the third day of which He would rise from the dead
again.
A) ‘Part represents
the whole’-principle; true? And B) “night” and “day”, are the whole; are the one
day; true? Then Friday is the second, and Saturday— the
WHOLE of the Seventh Day of the week “night and day”— only it; not “beyond”
it, MUST be reckoned “the third day according to the Scriptures” on
which the Messiah in fact resurrected. “And
God the SEVENTH DAY, RESTED”.
This thing – if
Jesus on Thursday 3 p.m. died, then Friday is the second, and Saturday “the
third day” – the world of unbelievers palate as much as they palate the Divine
Truth of Jesus’ bodily resurrection from the dead. For me this truth shall remain the only as
long as it shall remain the utter aversion of non-believers and any other than ‘old
fashioned’ Christians who believe the Scriptures because it is the Scriptures.
‘Sunday morning’ will always either be “beyond the 3 days” of Jonah’s prophecy; or will always come short of “the third day” of
Bible prophecy like Hosea’s, “After two days He (in Jesus Christ) will
revive us; in the third day He (in Jesus Christ) will raise us up, and
we (in Jesus Christ) shall live in in His sight. Then shall we
know if we follow on to know the LORD: His
going forth is prepared as the morning.”
Joe Viel:
“But the Word tells us in Mark
16:9 that "Y'shua rose early on the first [day] of the week", not
BEFORE Saturday night, not Saturday night, but on or after Sunday morning had
arrived. So His body was still in the grave Saturday night.”
GE:
No; it’s not true. The
Word does not tell “us in Mark
16:9 that "Y'shua rose early on the first [day] of the week".”
You wish it did.
If, what the Word
really tells us is true, That Jesus, “Risen / as the Risen One / having been
raised .... appeared to
Mary first, early on the First Day”, then,
He rose, before, “early on the First Day
of the week”— even “BEFORE Saturday night”. “Not Saturday night” indeed. Then, He rose,
in truth – not only ‘in cold fact’,
but, in warm, living, prophetic, divine, truth
– “BEFORE Saturday night had arrived”. Then He in truth, “In Sabbath Day’s
fullness” rose, “noon, mid-afternoon”. So Jesus rose from the dead and grave “Sabbath’s
mid-afternoon toward the First Day of the week”. So Jesus rose – the Word tells us in Mt28:1 –,
“BEFORE Saturday night had arrived”— with which bare and literally completed
fact, Mark 16:9 is in serene and bare, clear and literal, complete and divinely
beautiful, agreement. Law and Grace embraced “In Sabbath Day’s fullness, noon, indeed,
in the mid-afternoon”.
[[“In Sabbath
Day’s” – ‘sabbatohn’;
“Sabbath Day’s
fullness, noon” – ‘opse sabbatohn’;
“fullness, noon”
– ‘opse’;
“fullness, noon,
indeed” – ‘opse de’;
“in the
mid-afternoon” – ‘tehi epi-fohs-k-ousehi’;
“indeed in the
mid-afternoon” – ‘de .... tehi epi-fohs-k-ousehi’]]
“So”, that
“His body was still in the grave Saturday night”, is irreconcilable with and contrary to
what the plain Written “Word tells us”.
Joe Viel:
“If He died on a Wednesday, His body would have spent
Wednesday night, Thursday night, Friday night and Saturday night in the grave -
that's 4 nights!
But if He died on a
Thursday afternoon, you have Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights as 3 nights.”
GE:
Everybody can see
that. But not everybody remembers we don’t work with “Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights” here. We work with the nights and the days
that comprised “three days”—
the first, the
second, and, “the third day”,
“according to the
Scriptures”, the passover Scriptures.
We don’t work with “Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights” here. We work with the nights and the days
that comprised
1) “the fourteenth day of the First Month”, and
2) “the fifteenth day of the First Month”, and
3) “the sixteenth day of the First Month”—
the nights and the days
1) “the first day
they removed leaven and slaughtered the passover on / the Preparation of the
Passover”, and
2) “the Feast” / “Sabbath”
/ Day of Unleavened Bread / “great day sabbath”, and
3) “the day after
the sabbath” / “First Sheaf Wave Offering Before the LORD”,
consisted of.
And that, excludes, ‘Saturday
night’ as part of the
Seventh Day; and includes,
‘Wednesday night’ as part of the Fifth Day of the week.
And then we have not
looked, at the eschatological, prophetic, typological, Christ-centred,
Christological and soteriological Content and Essence and Nature of this
‘Wednesday night’ as night of the Fifth Day of the week and, of the first of
the “three nights” of the “three days and three nights” prophecy of Jonah and
Mt12:40.
Joe Viel:
“You have all day Friday and Saturday and He died at 3pm on
Thursday.”
GE:
That’s right, yes.
1) Jesus “died at 3pm on
Thursday”— ‘mid-afternoon’;
that, “according to the Scriptures”— marks the Fifth Day, whole day, the first
of the “three days” inclusive of both ‘night’ and ‘day’.
2) Jesus was entombed, “mid-afternoon”, that is, “at 3pm”—
on Friday— that, “according to the Scriptures”— marks the Sixth Day, whole day, the second
of the “three days” inclusive of both ‘night’ and ‘day’.
3) Jesus resurrected,
“mid-afternoon”, that is, “at 3pm”— “Sabbath’s-time”— that, “according
to the Scriptures the third day”— marks the Seventh Day, whole day, the third
of the “three days” inclusive of both ‘night’ and ‘day’.
Joe Viel:
“That wasn't just 3-5 hours of daytime death, but since there
was darkness from 12 noon to 3pm, it was an entire day of being dead, since the
darkness lifted when He gave up His spirit and a 'day', by the Biblical
definition, is defined by the presence of light or darkness, not by the passage
of a certain number of hours. (See Genesis chapter 1)”
GE:
“3-5 hours of daytime death” plus “darkness from 12 noon to
3pm” don’t give “an entire day of being dead”, anyhow.
Jesus’ first day of
Passover being Sacrifice slaughtered – since its inception when He declared, “The
hour is come” that marked the first of the “three days” “according to the
Scriptures” –, itself was marked by his having died and suffered death and hell
alive and fully conscious— itself was marked “the first day”, life like leaven
being extracted from his soul until He surrendered his spirit into the hands of
His Father mid-afternoon. It was “the first day” of Jesus’ ‘Passover’, He
having entered in into the Father’s Kingdom of the Son’s victorious and
triumphant Suffering “as soon as even was come” “And the hour was
come”, Mt26:20, Lk22:14, (Jn13:1).
“The first day”
was Jesus’ Passover in both aspects of it, of leaven being removed, and of
sacrifice being sacrificed. Even in its exact sequence in time: first the
leaven must be removed; after which the sacrifice must be killed. “Keep it until the fourteenth day of the
First Month .... and
Joe Viel:
“Matthew
12:40 tells us He spent 3 days and 3 nights, not 3 nights and 3 days. The
first "day" of His death preceded the first "night" of His
death. You have to count the nights first to go with a Wednesday crucifixion
and you have to eliminate a night to go with a Friday crucifixion.”
GE:
Not if you see them
they way I just explained it. You insist
on the sequence the words follow one another. That is all. Doing so you miss everything else of
importance with bearing on the specific sequence as found recorded.
(I have many times
spoken on this issue. You may be
interested to look some places up. Use your ‘Tools - search’ buttons right hand
top corner of your ‘my documents’ ‘files’ menu for the files; then use your
‘edit – find’ buttons to find the words you are looking for.)
Jesus spoke as if
looking back onto his past experience of going through hell, death and the
grave like being “in the heart of the earth” – to the type of Jonah. Jonah’s story is told in the same manner:
“Jonah WAS in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.” Matthew quoted exactly. Retrospectively the days come before the
nights; historically they are seen the other way round, first the nights, then
the days.
But the three days
and the three nights are not arbitrary nights and days; they belong. They
belonged to the Scriptural “three days” that prophetically were symbolic of the
days of Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection, the passover’s own and only
‘three days’: Abib 14, 15 and 16.
Each of them was a
‘first’ day in own right. Abib 14 was “the first day” of the passover in whole,
more specific of the eight days of passover feast period that included Abib 14
“Preparation of the Passover plus, the seven days that unleavened bread was
eaten from Abib 15 to Abib 21.
Abib 15 was the
first of the seven days unleavened bread was eaten— the passover Feast, or
passover-sabbath;
Abib 16 was First
Sheaf Wave Offering Before the LORD, “the day after the (passover-)sabbath”—
the first day of fifty days to
Pentecost.
These and these “according
to the Scriptures” “three days” only, are those “three days and three nights” Jesus
meant when He referred to the Jonah metaphor, “in the heart of the earth”
a real – ‘Biblical’ – “three days”, of “three days and three nights” each.
Not six day-halves
from four real days. Or, if supposing a Wednesday-crucifixion, six day halves
from five, real days. What nonsense people believe!
Joe Viel:
“Does the order the "days/nights" are mention
matter? Possible not. One wouldn't jump to that conclusion if the phrase only
appeared once in scripture. But it's reported as "3 days and 3
nights" in several places in scripture, not just one.”
GE:
Which is incorrect.
Not “several places in scripture”. Only once in the Old Testament; only once
in the New. Nevertheless ‘the order the "days/nights" are mentioned”, “does
matter”. Everything
‘mentioned’ in the Scriptures matter!
Also the order things are mentioned matter where the order is that which
is meant to be mentioned.
Joe Viel:
“The rabbis have often said that there are places in
scripture where order is indicative. For example, Genesis / Bereshit chapter 1
says the choronology of creation was plants>animals>man, but chapter 2
gives it as plants>man>animals. Perhaps this is because both where
created at the same time, and this is indicating by reporting it with one order
one time and another order another time.”
GE:
‘Indicative’ of
what? Do you mean ‘indicative of ‘meaning’ and ‘importance? How can ‘order’, not be ‘indicative’,
meaningful, and ‘important’?
Joe Viel:
“Why The Resurrection had to be 3 days/3 nights but still
less than 72 hours ..... Had Y'shua been buried on a Wednesday it would have
been a serious violation of Jewish custom to have waited until Sunday to have
gone to the grave. Jewish custom demands a burial within 3 days of a death.”
If you are correct
that “Jewish custom demands a burial within 3 days of
a death” – and why not, in
this instance? – then it was no ‘violation of Jewish custom’ to have
waited until after sunset and the evening of the Sixth Day to begin undertaking
to have Jesus buried next day and to have finished entombment by “mid-afternoon
towards the Sabbath” on Friday finally.
Also for the women to have gone to the grave or rather, to have wanted “to
go have a look at the grave mid-afternoon Sabbath’s-time”, would have been
no ‘violation of Jewish custom’; the Deceased would still be buried “within 3 days of death”.
Joe Viel:
“Once someone is laid to rest, the grave is not revisited
after 3 full days have expired. To bury someone after 3 days have expired since
they died or disturb the grave thereafter is considered a desecration by Jewish
custom.”
GE:
Well, supposed He
was laid in the tomb on Thursday afternoon, seen from the ‘inclusive’ point of
view, we have “a serious violation of
Jewish custom” in the case
of Jesus’ burial if the women only on Sunday morning went to the grave with the
intention to “disturb the grave”.
But why worry, since
Joseph finished to bury the body of Jesus the very next day, more or less
exactly 24 hours after He had died?
And why worry, since Joseph, says John, in fact buried the
Deceased “according to the custom of the Jews to bury”. In this case, “the
custom” was the Old Testament Law concerning the Passover Sacrifice, that after
the day of Abib 14 in which they killed it, and after the night of Abib 15 in
which they ate it, “Ye shall burn with fire that which remaineth until the
morning”, Ex12:10, and shall return it to earth. Also another law of custom (Dt21:22-23)
stipulated, “His body shall not remain all night on the tree!” (See studies ‘Buried on same day before
sunset’ etc. See appended, ‘Deuteronomy 21:22-23’) Joseph accordingly, buried the body “that
same day” still, and finished, closing the tomb, precisely,
“mid-afternoon”.
Joe
Viel:
“The Bible tells us
"You [God] will not let your Holy One see decay" (Acts
2:27, Acts
13:35). A corpse begins decaying after 72 hours, thus any crucifixion
involving more than a 72 hour span would be ruled out. That would eliminate a
Wednesday crucifixion, since even a Saturday evening Resurrection is more than
72 hours after the death/burial of Y'shua.”
GE:
Yes; it is not a Wednesday-crucifixion theory that
is under critique; but the theory of a Thursday-Crucifixion-Sunday-Resurrection
of Joe Viel’s that does not allow for a Friday-Burial.
Therefore is it not true, “..... if He died on a Thursday afternoon, you have Thursday,
Friday and Saturday nights as 3 nights”. If He died “on a Thursday afternoon, you have Thursday, Friday and
Saturday” as whole
days of night and day each giving three days each giving one
day and one night of its own.
You confirm the part for the whole principle, “So the Day He died on the cross, even though it was a few
hours before nightfall, would have counted as a "day" in the "3
days, 3 nights" count of things.” And again, “So at least PART of the day He was crucified must have
expired AFTER His body was put in the tomb”.
Then take it “He had to
have been buried 30-60 minutes before (Thursday) Evening arrived”,
and “So the Day He died on
the cross, even though it was a few hours before nightfall, would have counted
as a "day" in the "3 days, 3 nights" count of things”,
it would not only have ‘counted’ for halve of the day involved, its last halve
or day as such; it would ‘count’ for the whole of it, for both its opening halve, night, and
its second, closing halve, day as such.
The “three days” of the passover Scriptures cannot be contorted into
something not those “three days”.
Whatever time after sunset Saturday afternoon Jesus
might have risen, it by the same principle must count not only for halve of the
day involved; it should ‘count’ for the whole day, which would have counted as a fourth "day" that add up to four day-parts and four night-parts – your method ‘in
the count of things’.
Counting the part for the whole – any part, be it
one minute or ‘at least a few hours’ – counting the part would also, give 72
hours, but not as the principle of things to work from; but as an incidental
result. It would also give ‘more than 60
hour’, but again not as the principle of things to work from; but as an
incidental result. The only principle to
work from or with, is the “three days”, “according to the
Scriptures”, the passover Scriptures, and therefore from or with the passover’s “three days” as well
as the passover’s “three nights
and three days”.
Joe
Viel:
“He had to have been buried
30-60 minutes before Wednesday Evening arrived, since Joseph, Nicodemus, and
the two Mary's had to do work after He was buried and before the Sabbath came.
(They had to walk home before sundown of the Sabbath.) In order to avoid
violating the Sabbath, His body would have had to been placed in the tomb far
enough BEFORE sunset they could return home before sunset - or at least close
enough to home to be within a Sabbath Day's Journey, which would be within
2-4,000 cubits (slightly over half a mile to a mile for you Americans out
there) outside of their own "camp". Yeshua was killed "outside
the camp" [of
GE:
Of course this what you say must also apply in case
Jesus was crucified on Thursday .... not just for in case He was crucified on
Wednesday, and up to now in what you say, should be acceptable. But where you go on, it can no longer be
acceptable; because you further say,
Joe
Viel:
“..... That could have
been an hour, 30 minutes, or whatever, but would require some part of the day .....
before the Sabbath arrives.”
GE:
“That could have been an
hour, 30 minutes.....”. Then “that”, according to Joe Viel
who places the going home of the women, and, the preparations they made, after
“the ninth hour” that Jesus died and before sunset, 6 p.m.. Joe Viel,
artificially, leaves one solid and
full halve an hour, for from that
first “The Jews ....”, and, “After them .... Joseph”, went to
Pilate with their conflicting interests, until “mid-afternoon toward the
Sabbath” (no matter which for the sake of argument) when Joseph had the
body prepared and buried and the grave closed. Joe Viel allows Joseph’s whole
undertaking as much time he allows the women’s after the burial activities. And wants to be believed.
Joe Viel wants to be believed despite Luke
explicitly stated the hour Joseph closed the grave was
“mid-afternoon before toward the Sabbath it was”,
‘epefohsken sabbaton’— Jn19:42 “by the time of the Jews’ preparations”.
“before toward”— “before” because of
Accusative, ‘sabbaton’; and
“toward” because of ‘epi’ that means both
“midst”, ‘acme’, and “tending / hovering over towards”— and
“daylight tending”, because of ‘fohs’, ‘light
hovering over / light 45o’—
giving: “mid-afternoon”.
Note, clearly, “mid-afternoon before toward the Sabbath it
was”— Joseph closed the grave ‘3 o’clock’ before the second halve of
afternoon; he ‘3 o’clock’ finished burial, after the first halve of afternoon. Joseph finished burying the body the exact
hour of day than the hour of day Jesus rose from the grave: according to all
Sunday-resurrectionist theories, no matter which!
Joe
Viel:
“So at least PART of the
day He was crucified must have expired AFTER His body was put in the tomb and a
Wednesday death / Saturday Evening Resurrection definitely gives you something
in excess of 3 days of His body in the tomb and His Soul in the heart/center of
the earth.”
GE:
Here is an extremely important distinction made by Joe Viel:
“.... His body in the tomb and His Soul in the heart/center of the earth”. It seems though Joe Viel had not himself
realised the importance contained in his distinction. Had he really seen the importance, he would
have enlarged; he does not. Had he really seen the importance, he would have
concluded differently. He concluded in the same way as before and as always he
does. Had he seen the importance, he
would not have given alternative, “Soul in
the heart/center of the earth”.
I have in a previous delivery answered the
implications of this distinction. “His body in the tomb” is ‘literal’— it means
just that, “His body in the tomb”—
no metaphor or figure. “His Soul in the heart ....
of the earth”— the meaning is obviously not literal, but
figurative; it is metaphorical language used to portray the ‘spiritual’ and
prophetic meaning meant by Jesus as well as Jonah.
“Center”
as an equivalent for “heart”
is not good because ‘center’ is a word better used for metrical middle point
than for symbolic expansiveness.
Then one must be correct, and never say what Jesus
didn’t say. Jesus never said, ‘So shall the Son of Man be in the grave three
days and three nights’. Jesus didn’t
say, ‘As Jonah was in the heart of the earth three days and three nights’. He said
what He meant, and He meant what He said, “There shall no sign be given but
the sign of the prophet Jonas, for
as Jonas was: three days and three nights in the whale’s belly, so, shall the Son of Man be: three
days and three nights in the
heart of the earth.” The similarity is “three days and three
nights”; the difference was, “in
the whale’s belly Jonah”, “in the heart of the earth the Son of Man”.
So a Thursday “ninth
hour” death / Friday “mid-afternoon”
burial / Saturday “mid-afternoon”
Resurrection, definitely gives you “in
the heart of the earth” of “His Soul”, “three days and three nights”. It does not give you “three
days and three nights”, “of His body in the tomb”.
Joe Viel:
“The women didn't finish annointing His body, but they didn't
realize that someone else already had done so and completed Jewish custom in
this manner......”
GE:
No women at any
stage anointed the body of Jesus – not before or after his burial. Only men did embalming, for-to-be-buried
“according to the custom / law of the Jews to bury”— which had its provisions
and precedent in the passover sacrifice in the Torah.
Forget Judaistic
laws from the era after Christ.
Joe Viel correctly
observed “The women .... didn't realize that
someone else already had done so and completed Jewish custom in this manner.” The
women did not realise because they didn’t know even. Joseph initiated action “in secret for
fear of the Jews”, but “boldly” in fear of God. Only much later Nicodemus also got there
where Joseph was “handling” or “treating the body” and the two of
them further “handled the body” (John) in seclusion from public eye! We hear about the two Marys that they arrived
in time for the procession to the grave next day, when they and ONLY the two of
them, “followed after”. (Luke)
Only a few – two men
and two women – witnessed Jesus’ burial— from initiation of undertaking to the
closing of the grave. The Jews must have found out long while too late after,
so that they only on the Sabbath “morning which is after the preparation/s”
(‘tehi epaurion hehtis estin meta tehn paraskeyehn’) once again – fifth time in
three days –** bothered Pilate, this time, to have the grave sealed and
guarded. During Friday night the whole
city of
Joe Viel:
“The annointing was done in Mark
14:2-8.”
GE:
‘Anointing was done’
only, in the Gospel of John. ‘Buying linen’ was done only in Mark. ‘Wrapping
the body’ was done in three Gospels, Mark, Matthew and Luke, which implies
‘anointing’. John says, “They treated
the body of Jesus, wounding it in linen clothes with the spices”. Mark 14:2-8 does not say “The anointing was done”. It expressly states that “after the Sabbath was past Mary Magdalene
and Mary of James and Salome, bought
sweet spices so that they might anoint him when they would go (to the tomb).” Therefore, no “anointing
was done in Mark
14:2-8”!
No women ever did any ‘anointing’.
Joe Viel:
“Now how does Jewish
tradition count days? The Talmud says
"part of a day is
like a whole day" (Talmud, Pesachim 4a - See also Shabbat 9.3 of the
Now this Talmud quote
appears in The Second Book of Jewish Why in explaining how to count the number
of days for mourning for the dead. Here's what it says:
"If a burial is
completed just before nightfall and the mourner simply removes his shoes in the
cemetary as a token sign that mourning has begun, this counts as the first day
of mourning"
and elsewhere the same
author also says:
"If a mourner sits
shiva for as little as one hour on the day of the funeral, that is considered
as one full day of shiva" immediately after citing the teaching of the
Talmud in Pesachim 4a as well. (The Jewish Book of Why , page 69).
This rule is about as
close as you're going to get to a rule on how to count the time, since there's
no Jewish tradition on how to count the time spent by dead Saviors. But the
parallels on how many days mourners are required to mourn for the dead after
they died would certainly be counted the same way.
So the Day He died on
the cross, even though it was a few hours before nightfall, would have counted
as a "day" in the "3 days, 3 nights" count of things.”
GE:
O no! You are directly contradicting the very
principles of reckoning you are quoting!
“(E)ven though it was a few hours before
nightfall, (it) would have counted as a "day" in the "3 days, 3
nights" count of things”,
means “a "day"” as a
whole unit in Bible terminology and reckoning wherein the night forms the
beginning halve and daylight the closing halve— no matter the sequence of words, “in the
"3 days, 3 nights" count of things”.
1) Say for instance, if a mourner sat shiva for
as little as one hour on the last
day of ‘shiva’, that should be “considered as one full
day of shiva"” as well,
surely! The first one hour after sunset
as much should count for the whole full day as should the last one hour before
sunset. As stated Joe Viel, to quote his own words:
“..... since ANY PART of the evening would count as a
"night", He would have had to have Risen BEFORE Saturday night .....” since ANY PART of the evening would count as a
FULL DAY!
This was the case,
in fact, the Fifth Day – Thursday – having started Wednesday evening right
after sunset, night and day; the Sixth Day night and day; the Sabbath, night
(Friday evening after sunset) and day, ‘Saturday’ day. Therefore, having been
crucified on Thursday, and “since ANY PART of the
evening would count as a "night", He would have had to have Risen
BEFORE Saturday night .....”
2) Besides,
both the statements about “the "3 days, 3 nights"” (in
Mt12:40 and Jonah 2), are made from an after-view
viewpoint: “Jonah was .... so
shall the Son of Man (have been) in the heart of the earth three days
and three nights.”
3) Also,
“the "3 days, 3 nights"” must be “considered
as” three full days— THE,
“three days”, “according to the Scriptures” the passover Scriptures of Abib 14, 15 and 16.
4) And,
how many times is it written the Son of Man would rise “the third DAY” – meaning ‘in day ‘light’-DAY’? Is it just forgotten or designedly ignored,
the fact of it Jesus would and Jesus
did rise, “the third DAY according to the Scriptures”:
“IN SABBATH’S FULLNESS OF DAY IT BEING
IN THE MID NOON-AFTER”?
5) What time of the (whole) day was the “First-Sheaf-Offering”,
“raised-and-waved-before-the-LORD”?
Was it “raised-and-waved” in night-of-day, or was it “raised-and-waved”
in light-of-day? In light-of-day, of
course! So why did anyone begin to
think Jesus rose from the dead in night of day? “So also is the resurrection of the Dead
.... it is raised in glory .... it is raised in power .... God giveth a body as
it pleaseth Him .... one ....” of the Son of Man— “the Glory of One ....
HIS OWN” (1Cor15), “the Sun of Righteousness” (Mal4:2), “above
the brightness of the sun” (Acts 26:13). Compare Acts 2; does it speak of night, or of
day and daylight? You may decide for
yourself, but as far as I am concerned, God is the God of Light and Life and so
did He reveal Himself through Jesus Christ the Lord in the resurrection of Him
from the dead.
Therefore to believe
that God raised Christ in the daylight of the day of his resurrection from the
dead, “in fullness of the Sabbath’s Day”, is but to believe God and the
Scriptures.
Joe Viel:
“Over and over again, He says "3 days and 3 nights"
and never "3 nights and 3 days". So we start the count of the days
first, then the nights, which could only be done for a Thursday Resurrection.”
GE:
Incorrect! How come you are so observant it “never (says) "3 nights and 3 days"”, but don’t see it in the NT but once “says
"3 days and 3 nights"”—
Mt12:40, ‘never over and over again’? How
come you are so unobservant it in the NT ‘over and
over again, says’, “the
third day”, “in three days” etc.? Because
you presumed a Sunday-resurrection.
Also, how can you insist
on a ‘night-resurrection’ but “start the count of the
days first, then the nights”,
and talk of a Sunday-morning resurrection – an after-sunrise-morning, daylight,
resurrection --- which rather than the ‘old’ just after midnight resurrection
has been the trend for many years?
Joe Viel:
“..... since ANY PART of the evening would count as a
"night", He would have had to have Risen BEFORE Saturday night if He
died on a Wednesday afternoon.”
GE:
Nonsense; if the
factors you mention are all taken into consideration, “if He died on a Wednesday afternoon” and rose on Sunday morning, ‘He would have had to have risen’ on the FIFTH
day since crucifixion-day. If He died on
a Thursday afternoon as YOU maintain and rose on Sunday morning as YOU maintain,
He would STILL have had to have risen on the FOURTH day since crucifixion-day.
And a miss is as good as a mile.
Then the facts He would rise and did rise “the THIRD day according to
the Scriptures”, are still
disregarded. It is your
arithmetic, Joe Viel; not mine. It’s
yours, against the Scriptures’.
Joe Viel:
“Thus, He would have had to have Risen on the Sabbath, not
AFTER the Sabbath. Yet the Word tells us in Mark
16:9 that "Y'shua rose early on the first [day] of the week", not
BEFORE Saturday night, not Saturday night, but Sunday morning. So His body was
still in the grave Saturday night.”
GE:
And so we end where
we started, with the whoremongers of lies’ rape of the Holy Scriptures, “After the Sabbath”.
Appendix
Deiteronomy
21:22-23
Buried
Before Sunset, or, After
Appendix
to Par. 5.2.1.4. P.106
An unknown author quotes
““ Deut.16:6 – “But at the place which Yahweh thy
Elohim
““ shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice
““ the passover at even ["ba ereb"],
““ at the going down of the sun,
““ at the season that thou camest forth out of
He
asks,
““ What does the phrase "going down of the sun" mean?
And
answers,
““ The same Hebrew construction is found in Josh.8:29 –
““… "And the king of Ai he hanged on a tree until eventide [ereb]:
““ as soon as the sun was down ,
““ Joshua commanded that they should take his carcase down
““ from the tree, and cast it at the entering of the gate of the city,
““ and raise thereon a great heap of stones…”“
The
author also quotes,
““ Josh.10:26,27
, "... and they were hanging upon the trees
““ until the evening [ereb]. And it came to pass
““ at the time of the going down of the sun,
““ that Joshua commanded, and they took them down off the trees,
““ and cast them into the cave wherein they had been hid,
““ and laid great stones in the cave's mouth…”“
He
then claims,
““ The underlined words in both verses
““ are the equivalent Hebrew of
““ "at the going down" in Deut.16:6.
““ Notice one verse says the sun was already down
““ and the other verse says it was going down.
““ To understand what the status of the sun really was,
““ we must look at the commandment that led Joshua to order
““ the king's body taken down. It is found in Deut.21:22,23…
““ Deut.21:22,23 - "And if a man committed a sin worthy of death,
““ and he
be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
““ His
body shall not remain all night upon the tree,
““ but
thou shalt in any wise bury him that day ;
““ (for
he that is hanged is accursed of Elohim;)…”“
The author then asserts,
““… Joshua was obeying Yahweh's commandment … -
““ The body had to be buried the same day it was hung on the tree.
““ That means it had to be buried before sunset.
We wish to differ on several aspects.
First we must stress the fact we agree with the
unknown author on the Nisan 14 (end-time
of day) slaughter of the Passover lamb, and its eating in
the night of Nisan 15. But this very Passover-arrangement is in contradiction
with his ideas on the meaning of the Deuteronomy instruction as well as with
both the Joshua passages.
Deut.21:22,23 - "... if a man be put to death ... and thou hang
him on a tree, His body shall not remain all night upon the tree,
but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day” – meaning he must
be buried the current day that had begun with “night” - during which the
body had been hanging on the tree. It implies the body had to be
removed from the tree before sunrise with the view to its
interment during the following daylight!
Thus Joseph of Arimathea removed Jesus’ body
from the tree far into night and very probably only before sunrise. “Thou shalt
in any wise bury him that day” – which exactly Joseph did: during
daylight of “that day”, after the day on which
Jesus had been crucified.
“Shemesh” in Josh.8:29 is translated “sun”
in the KJV, and per se means the rising of the sun -
Gn.19:23, Josh.12:1 and many other places. (It is also used for
other times of sunlight, e.g. Josh.10:12.)
The words supplied in
Josh.8:29, “and as soon as … was
down”
- because the opposite of “ereb” - should be: “and as soon as the sun began to rise” “shemesh”. And
the words supplied in 10:27, “going down”, should be, “at the time of the dawning / rising of
the sun” “shemesh”.
See the close nexus between “east” – mizrach,
and “morning” – shemesh, in the combination “early dawning” – mizrach
shemesh. Compare the
s-h-a- in shachar, “morning” / “dawn”, and in shakam,
“to awake” / “rise”, with the s-h-e- in shemesh, “sunrise”.
Then also compare the
m-i-s-h- in mishchar, “morning”, and in mishap
– “dawning of day”, with the –m-e-s-h in shemesh, “sunrise”.
Now put the two together, and it becomes s-h-a + m-e-s-h, then
becomes she-mesh. Then just to confirm this type of combination, see
Dn.6:19, shepharpara, “very early in the morning”. Eth eber and shemesh
it is clear, are the opposites of day-time and night-time, respectively
“afternoon” / “towards sunset”, and, ‘afternight’ / “towards sunrise”!
Therefore in the case of Joshua 10:26,27,
instead of to translate, "...
and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening [ereb]”, rather
translate, "... and they hanged them upon the trees while the sun
was setting [ereb]. And it came to pass that at the time of the rising
of the sun “shemesh”, Joshua commanded, and they took them
down off the trees.” “Eth ereb” indicates the time of day of the
hanging;
“shemesh” the time of night of Jushua’s commanding.
We
are compelled to conclude, that the phrases in the two texts, namely, “as soon as the sun was rising”
“shemesh”, and, “at the time of the rising of the sun”
“shemesh”, are NO equivalent Hebrew
of "at the going down" “eth ereb / ereb” in Deut.16:6, where it is
the rendering of the word bo, and, meaningfully, is used in conjunction
with the statement, “at the sea” – which is to the west of the land and just
the opposite of shemesh, “sunrise” in the east!
Joshua
was obeying Yahweh's commandment. The body / bodies had to be buried the day after they were put to the tree - after the night during which they “remained on the tree”.
There is absolutely no possibility or implication the bodies could have been removed from the tree “before sunset” before “all
(this) night”. And that means the dead had to be buried
in the daylight following the
night = “that same day”.
There
would have been no sense in having
the bodies hung just before sunset only to remove them, again just before
sunset. Therefore, instead of translating like the KJV, “And the king of Ai he hanged on a tree until eventide [ereb]”, rather translate, “And the king of Ai he hanged
on a tree before
sunset
[ereb]: and as soon as the sun dawned, “shemesh” Joshua commanded they should take his
carcase down.”
In
both events stone-mounts of such hugeness were built over the graves they
“remained unto this day” – an immense task scheduled certainly for daylight and
impossibly for night-time.
Indeed,
just so, Joseph was obeying Yahweh's commandment. Jesus’ body had to be buried
the day after they hanged Him - in fact
after the night in which the body
“remained on the tree”. There is absolutely no possibility or implication the
body of Jesus could have been removed from the tree “before sunset” of the day
before - not before “all night” of the day that afterwards did begin - He “shall not remain all night”, but “before the sun had risen”
shall be taken “down off the tree”, and “that (same) day” be buried.
That
would bring the exact and full fulfillment “according to the Scriptures the
third day” of the typology of the Passover as prophesied: Deut.16:6 – “But at
the place which Yahweh thy Elohim shall choose to place his name in (i.e.,
in Jerusalem, in Jesus Christ!), there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at
even ["ba ereb"], at the going down of the sun, at the season that
thou
camest forth out of
That
was the sacrifice of Him. Then, o sinner, they lifted Him upon the tree “before
the sun did set” and before “it was evening”, “so that the Scriptures might be
fulfilled”: “His body shall
not remain all night (Mk.15:42, Mt.27:57) upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise
bury Him that day”. “And after this Joseph of Arimathea came” ... “he took
the body down ... and the women beheld how his body was laid ... and the sun
declined towards the Sabbath Day.”
28 June 2009
Gerhard Ebersöhn
Private Bag X43
Sunninghill
2157