Resurrection not on a fourth day
by Gerhard Ebersöhn
(Antithesis pp
53/54)
Answers:
Sabres (Died on Thursday; on Sabbath Resurrected)
Thursun (Thursday died; on Sunday rose)
Trad (Friday crucified; Sunday resurrected)
Wed (‘Messianic
Christians’ – Crucified on Wednesday, raised
on Sunday)
Sabres
IN
SABBATH’S-TIME BEFORE THE LORD
FOURTEEN ABIB FIRST FIRST DAY
PREPARE THE DAY OF PASSOVER!
BEGIN! REMOVE ALL LEAVEN!
TO THE END TO SACRIFICE THE
LAMB!
FIFTEEN ABIB FIRST OF PASCHAL
DAYS AGAIN
FEAST! REMEMBER! EAT!
UNLEAVENED BREAD’S ROASTED
LUMP!
OUT FROM UNDER
TO FLAME TO ASH TO EARTH WITH
THE REMAINS
SIXTEEN ABIB THIRD DAY
ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES
YAHWEH’S PASSOVER CONSUMMATE!
FIRST OF WINTER HARVEST DAYS
–
WAVE THE SHEAF – CLARION CALL
TO SHAVUOT!
IN SABBATH’S TIME BEFORE THE
LORD!
FIRST OF FIFTY TO THE DAY
LAST OF WINTER’S GROWTH,
TWO LOAVES WAVED – ONE THE
BODY THAT IS CHRIST’S
IN SABBATH’S TIME BEFORE THE
LORD!
Crucified on the day before Burial, and
Resurrection on the
day after Burial, Friday, “The Preparation
which is the
Fore-Sabbath”
From the first to “the third day according to the
Scriptures”. . .
Mk.14:12/17, Mt.26:17/20, Lk.22:7/14,
Jn.13:1-17:26
“Evening” – Preparation for, and the Lord’s Supper
. . . the FIRSTday, 14
Nisan, “Preparation of the Passover”, Thursday, begins!
“Night” – Anguish, Betrayal, Denial
Mt.12:40, Mk.14:26-42, Jn.18:1-27
“Early” – Trial, Delivered, Way to Cross
Jn.18:28-19:22
Middle Day – Crucifixion, Mocking, Darkness,
Mk.15:25, 29, 33,
Jn.19:23-29
Afternoon “The ninth hour”, – Died,
Deserted
Mt.27:46, Jn.19:30, Lk.23:48
Jn.19:31-40, Mk.15:42, Mt.27:57,
Lk.23:52
“Evening” – Jews; “after this”, Joseph
. . . the SECOND day, 15
Nisan, Passover Feast, “The Fore-Sabbath”, Friday, begins!
“Night” – Took the body down, prepared
Mk.15:42-46b, Mt.27:58-59,
Lk.23:53a Jn.19:32-40
“Afternoon”
– Buried
Mk.15:46c-47, Mt.27:60-61, Lk.23:53b-56b,
Jn.19:41-42
Luke 23:56c
“Began to rest”
. . . “the
THIRD day”, 16 Nisan, First Sheaf Wave Offering, “Sabbath”, begins !
“Morning” –
Guard
Only Mt.27:62-66
“Afternoon”
– Resurrected
Only Matthew 28:1-4
Only Mark 16:1
. . . the fourth day, 17 Nisan, Sunday, begins :
“The Sabbath past”
“Early darkness”, first sight of opened grave
Only John 20:1-2
“So shall the
Son of Man have been in the heart of the earth for three days and for three
nights” when raised from the dead “for a sign”! Matthew 12:40.
Prophetic
Feasts
Spring – Winter Harvest
Nisan (First Month) Passover
14 Preparation
Lamb slaughtered Crucifixion
Day of Removal of Leaven
15 Passover Sabbath Feast Lamb
eaten Burial
First Day of Unleavened
Bread………….Eaten
16 Day after
Sabbath First Sheaf Wave Offer
“Day after Sabbath” of Passover
“The third day” of Passover; 2nd day of Unleavened
Bread; first day of “Fifty Days”;
Resurrection
17 3rd day of Unleavened Bread
Appearances
Fortieth Day Ascension
Wait in
Fiftieth Day First
Bread Wave Offering
Apostolic Outpouring of Holy
Spirit
Fulfilled in
Holy Spirit and Ecclesia……….Body of Christ
Autumn –
Summer Harvest
Tishri Day of Atonement
9 Preparation Tribes
ordered Priests offer for self
Fulfilled in Israel
Atonement: Morning: Goat Slaughtered
Fulfilledin Christ’s
Suffering, Humiliation, Death
High Priest Enters
Fulfilled in Christ’s Presentation,
Ascending Trone and Exaltation
Afternoon: High Priest Returns
Fulfilled in Christ’s being “brought again
from the dead”
Goat Sent into
Wilderness
Fulfilled in Life of
Christ Raised, Presented, Exalted
The Death of Death in the
Death of Christ
15 Feast of Trumpets
Fulfilled in, 1, Judgement,
Sacrifice and Resurrection of Christ 2, in Pentecost
3, in Sabbaths’ Feast 4, in Christ’s Return
Feast of
Tabernacles
Fulfilled in
1, Incarnation 2, Resurrection 3, Church 4, New Earth
Introductory
Question Posed by Traditionalist (Trad)
Was Jesus raised on the first day of
the week like the Scriptures say He did?
Theory: Crucified on Wednesday
Wed
Crucifixion
happened on a Wednesday and not a Friday. It says He was taken off the cross
before the sabbath began, but the sabbath that is referred to is the Sabbath of
the passover feast, which was on a Thursday.
Sabres
Where does it say ".... the Sabbath of the passover feast, which was on a
Thursday"? It never
says it! You take it from the air!
Where does it
say ".... He was taken off the cross before the sabbath began"? It never says it! You take it
from the air!
It says –
Mk15:42, Mt27:57 – He was taken from the cross "After that
it had been evening for quite a while already". The Greek, that is, and virtually exactly so
translated in the KJV. Noticed how it
has been changed in the newer 'Translations'? Why?
Then Luke 24 says
Joseph closed the grave "While being afternoon the Sabbath nearing."
Noticed nobody ever attempted to change this? But have you noticed how
they changed the very same word for the very same time of the day in Mt28:1 the
third phrase? Why?
Therefore, why
must the body be taken down before sunset, while the Scriptures
directly the opposite, instructed the body of a cursed should not “hang on the
pole all night”, but must be removed from the pole “before sunrise-light-of-morning”
and “that same day must be buried”? (Dt21:23) (See my study
on this subject, ‘Taken Down Before
Sunrise’, appended.)
Each and every argument against the Wednesday crucifixion
theory somehow or other is an argument against the Friday crucifixion
Sunday resurrection tradition. In essence they are identical – both consist of
but fallacy.
Resurrection
on Fourth Day
The Wednesday
crucifixion theory implicates a fourth “day”: Wednesday,
Thursday, Friday and Saturday = four days!
The complication
from another angle:
Day One:
Fourth Day (Wednesday) First of “three days”: Crucifixion.
14 Nisan. “Buried
before sunset.” Day ends: “Sunset”.
Day Two:
The Fifth Day (Thursday) 1st of “three nights” …and the 1st “day”.
15 Nisan. Day ends:
“Sunset”.
Day Three:
The Sixth Day (Friday) 2nd of “three nights” … and the 2nd “day”.
16 Nisan. Day ends:
“Sunset”.
Day Four:
The Sabbath (Saturday) 3rd of “three nights” … and the 3rd
“day”.
17 Nisan. “Resurrection
just before Sunset”.
1, According to the Wednesday
crucifixion theory,
Wednesday all day, crucifixion, death, and, entombment,
occur and are finished, “before sunset”.
2, According to the Wednesday
crucifixion theory,
from entombment
3, counting of the “three days and three nights”, starts
and not from death.
4, According
to the Wednesday crucifixion theory, the first “night” of the “three days and three
nights” follows from after sunset.
5, According
to the Wednesday crucifixion theory, reckoning of Day begins “from sunset”.
6, According
to the Wednesday crucifixion theory, “from sunset Wednesday”, Thursday
begins … the second day!
Clearly
something, already, is awry!
According
to the Wednesday crucifixion theory Thursday night and Friday day together make a day the
Sixth Day of the week the third day of the “three days and three
nights”. Only two nights, and we already have three days! Jesus
was not resurrected on Friday! Friday night and Saturday day together
makes a day the Sabbath Day the fourth day of the “three days and
three nights”. But if Saturday had been the day of Resurrection, it could not
have
been the fourth
day! Saturday should have been the third
day. Crucifixion should have been on Thursday!
If this fact
of a fourth day, rule out the Wednesday
crucifixion theory, it just as effectively rule out the Thursday crucifixion theory that places the Resurrection on a fourth day, 17 Nisan.
The question
is whether the “three days and three nights” are involved in the sense of one
period or whether “three days and three nights”, are what they are, the “three days” of
prophetic Scriptures!
All of these
theories call on John 11:9, “Are there not twelve hours in a day?”
If it has to be the full number of hours, by principle it should
also be the full number of minutes and seconds. Then the
resurrection occurs where it cannot, where there is no time
to occur. They cannot say Jesus rose “on”, or, “in”
the third day because “after the third day”, must be taken for
“literal” and its idiomatic force be ignored. The result: “After
the third day” should mean more than 72 hours, which should make the resurrection “on the fourth
day”. And so one could go on and on.
Now the
Wednesday crucifixion theory maintains the resurrection occurred “after
72 hours from sunset Wednesday”. The day being reckoned from
sunset to sunset – which the Wednesday crucifixion theory accepts –
resurrection occurs on Sunday, Saturday night being the First
Day. The Wednesday crucifixion theory in effect places the resurrection
on the fifth, and not, on “the third day”.
Considered separate
entities of “days” and “nights”, the “three days and three nights” on and within the three calendar days
of Jesus’ crucifixion, entombment and resurrection from the dead, agree with
the historic events of the Passover. Three days occurred and are to be
considered according to the principle the part represents the whole.
“The third day”, especially, was not a full day of twenty-four hours.
The resurrection occurred in but an instant and as such represents the
third day as “the third day”. The resurrection besides occurred
considerable time before sunset and approximately three quarters of that
day are considered “the third day according to the Scriptures” fully and
unreservedly.
The day Jesus
was buried was Friday without a doubt as we have shown many times. Mark 15:42 in
parallel with 16:1 is the clearest and most definitive Scripture in this
respect. Also John 19:31 in parallel with 42, Luke 23:54 in parallel with 56
and Matthew 27:62 in parallel with 28:1 leave no doubt that Friday was the day
of the week of Jesus’ burial. It could not have been
circumscribed and identified any better, with more or better detail or in
simpler and
clearer
language. In just as simple and
unambiguous language though is it also stated that before Joseph buried the
body and after it still hung on the cross, “the evening had come”,
which, together with many other factors, make of the day of
interment the day after, crucifixion.
Then, again
with just as simple and unambiguous language (unfortunately manipulated through
translation) Matthew 28:1 states that the resurrection occurred on the Sabbath,
the day after, interment. Which gives us “the third day”, and,
“three days”, and, “three days and three nights”
considering the significance of Gethsémané night, without any difficulty or
confusion. Together, the first “night” (Wednesday night) –
Gethsémané , and the first “day” (Thursday day) – crucifixion
and death, and forsaking by all, constitute the first
day of the “three days” “according to the Scriptures”. Then “came evening”, the
second day of the “three days” beginning. (Thursday) The second “night”,
Passover Feast Meal, “Being the Preparation, the Jews demanded of Pilate …
After this, Joseph went in to Pilate”, the body granted, taken down, removed,
prepared. The “day” saw the women following after to the grave and
Joseph eventually closing the grave and all returning to prepare for the
Sabbath – “day declining towards the First Day of the week” <epefohsken
sabbaton>.
“Started the
women to rest” the third day of the “three days” began – so the
third “night”. “Come morning” and “day” the third, Mt.27:62, the
Jews and Pilate, the grave sealed and guarded. “The third day”, “In the
Sabbath’s fullness being afternoon”, saw the angel descend,
and roll away the stone— “the
day after the sabbath” of Passover, thou shalt wave First Sheaf before the
LORD”; “In the sixteenth of the First
Month they made an end … to cleanse … the Inner Part (‘Most Holy’) of the house
of the LORD … They brought forth the he goats for the sin offering before the
king and the congregation … They made reconciliation with their blood upon the
altar to make an atonement for all Israel: for the king commanded … The Song of
the LORD began with trumpets … and all the Congregation worshipped … when they
had made an end of offering the king and all that were present with him, bowed
themselves and worshipped.” 2Chr29.
I say this before, because the Wednesday Crucifixion Theory will not be
our topic, and must please be referred to as little as possible.
Wed
“Sabbath ... sixteenth of the First Month ...”
Your sources must be flawed. Day of First Fruits is always the First day of the Week. ( Lev 23:11-12), it was
the next day after the Sabbath, not the Sabbath.
Sabres
“... it was the
next day after the Sabbath”,
Wrong! “The day after the sabbath (of Passover)— not “next” day after the (Passover-)Sabbath. “Day after the sabbath”, “the sabbath” being ‘sabbath’ of Passover Nisan 15, “the day after” would be Nisan 16— not Nisan 17, not “the next day after the Sabbath”.
So, sorry, really, your sources
must be flawed!
In fact, you
don’t have sources at all! I dare you
present me one ‘source’! Day of First Sheaf is on any day of the week
and it was “the (first) day after
the 'sabbath'”— not the
Sabbath of the week, but the 'sabbath'-day Nisan 15 that came after "The Day of Preparation Of The Passover" Jn19:14, Nisan 14.
Your view is 'based' upon the so-called but un-demonstrate-able
'Saddusaic'-view ( Lev 23:11-12), an opportunistic manipulation of the
Passover-dating that originated centuries AD.
I have challenged many scholars to present but a single authentic
'Saddusaic' illustration of the 'always
after the weekly Sabbath'-idea of the Day of First Sheaf Wave Offering.
Allow me to supply you this little information surer than the Laws of Newton: It
does not exist in the Scriptures; and it did not exist before those Jews deep
into the Christian era have made mention of it!
Allow the
Scriptures to speak for themselves, and there's NO discrepancy or difficulty in
the chronological sequence the Scriptures create and follow!
Thursun
With all respect, Matt. 12:39-40 and Lev. 23. Let the Scriptures
speak for itself, in its own context, and not attempt to read into it what we
may wish to see. This was written by Moses, who was quoting a pretty good source,
I think.
1
And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the children of
feasts
of the LORD, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, these are
My feasts.
The
Sabbath
3 ‘Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of
solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is
the Sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
The
Passover and Unleavened Bread
4 ‘These are the feasts of the LORD, holy convocations which you shall
proclaim at
their
appointed times. 5 On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is
the LORD’s Passover. 6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the
Feast of Unleavened Bread to the LORD; seven days you must eat unleavened
bread. 7 On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no
customary work on it. 8 But you shall offer an offering made by fire to the
LORD for seven days. The seventh day shall be a holy convocation; you
shall do no customary work on it.’”
The Feast of Firstfruits
9 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 10 “Speak to the children of
statute
forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
The
Feast of Weeks
15 ‘And you shall count for yourselves from the day after the Sabbath, from the
day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering: seven Sabbaths shall be
completed. 16 Count fifty days to the day after the seventh Sabbath; then you
shall offer a new grain offering to the LORD. 17 You shall bring from your
dwellings two wave loaves of two-tenths of an ephah. They shall
be of fine flour; they shall be baked with leaven. They are the
firstfruits to the LORD. 18 And you shall offer with the bread seven lambs of
the first year, without blemish, one young bull, and two rams. They shall be as
a burnt offering to the LORD, with their grain offering and their drink
offerings, an offering made by fire for a sweet aroma to the LORD. 19 Then you
shall sacrifice one kid of the goats as a sin offering, and two male lambs of
the first year as a sacrifice of a peace offering. 20 The priest shall wave
them with the bread of the firstfruits as a wave offering before the
LORD, with the two lambs. They shall be holy to the LORD for the priest. 21 And
you shall proclaim on the same day that it is a holy convocation to you.
You shall do no customary work on it. It shall be a statute forever in
all your dwellings throughout your generations. 22 ‘When you reap the harvest
of your land, you shall not wholly reap the corners of your field when you
reap, nor shall you gather any gleaning from your harvest. You shall leave them
for the poor and for the stranger: I am the LORD your God.’”
The Feast of Trumpets
23 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 24 “Speak to the children of
offering
made by fire to the LORD.’”(Lev. 23:1-23 - NKJV)
I could have quoted the whole chapter, but this will suffice to
show a couple of things. There were multiple "feast days" referred to
as a "Sabbath", and they all are called "holy convocations"
with attendant 'restrictions' incumbent upon them. There are some that are
referred to as "holy convocations", but not specifically described as
"Sabbath" but that seems to be the gist, even so, as an example, 15
Nisan (Abib) or "Firstfruits", which I believe to be identical with
the "High day", named in John 19:31. All "Sabbaths" were
holy convocations; why was it necessary to designate this particular one (15
Nisan) as "a High day", if not for the first feast day of
"unleavened bread"? (Lev. 23:6-7)
Sabres
Hold on! “... as an
example, 15 Nisan (Abib) or "Firstfruits", which I believe to be
identical with the "High day", named in John 19:31”?
“...15 Nisan (Abib) or "Firstfruits"...”?
“15 Nisan”, “Firstfruits”? No! You
obviously are confusing “the first feast day of "unleavened bread"”
for “Firstfruits”— a
grave mistake!
If you say, “Nisan (Abib)”,
you say Passover’s ‘firstfruits’,
which was “First Sheaf Wave
Offering”. This ‘firstfruits’ “sheaf before the LORD” of Passover, “the
priest shall wave on the day after the Sabbath”. Which
day was the Passover’s ‘sabbath’? You
told us, I quote you, “this particular one (of) "Sabbaths"
... 15 Nisan ... as
"a High day"”! The Passover’s
‘sabbath’ was Nisan 15. Now then this Passover’s
‘firstfruits’ Sheaf
Wave Offering before the LORD, “the priest shall wave”, this Scripture tells
us, “on the day after the Sabbath”! Therefore, the day of First Sheaf
Wave Offering was not Nisan 15, but “the day after” Nisan 15, namely, Nisan 16. Not, as our friend just now
alleged, “Day of First Fruits ... was the next day after the Sabbath” which is Nisan 17, and also, not as you have said, “15 Nisan (Abib) or
"Firstfruits"”. It wasn’t either,
but, Day of
First Fruits ... was “on the day after the Sabbath” of Passover 15 Nisan, which makes Day of First Fruits First Sheaf Wave Offering, 16 Nisan!
Therefore,
your generalisation, “There are some ("Sabbaths") that are referred to as
"holy convocations", but not specifically described as
"Sabbath" but that seems to be
the gist, even so, as an example, 15 Nisan”, is totally
unwarranted and presumptuous. The actual
state of affairs is that there are some ‘Feasts’ or
‘Holy Convocations’, that are referred to as ‘sabbaths’, but are not
specifically described as “the Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD” and are
infinitely far removed from the gist of “the Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD”,
even so, as an example, 15 Nisan, first day of Passover of eating unleavened
bread. How cunningly have you confused truth and error in defence of your
error!
Thursun
All "Sabbaths" were holy convocations; why was it
necessary to designate this particular one (15 Nisan) as "a High
day", if not for the first feast day of "unleavened bread"?
(Lev. 23:6-7)
Sabres
As I have said, your presumption is wilful deceit. Nevertheless
I’ll explain,
(1) Because “the first feast day
of (eating) "unleavened bread"” was not the day of waving of the First Sheaf, but was the so called “sabbath” of Passover, Nisan 15, and first day of having eaten
unleavened bread, while,
having been second day of Passover as such after Passover’s Preparation-day,
Nissan 14.
(2) ‘Day of First Sheaf’
was “the day after (this) sabbath” of
Nisan 15. Since the first day for eating unleavened bread was Nisan 15 and was called a ‘sabbath’, “the day after the sabbath”
was the second day of having
eaten unleavened bread. ‘Day of First Sheaf’ was advertently reckoned Nisan 16, and meaningfully recorded, in
2Chr29:17. So second day of
Unleavened Bread Feast coincided with, and was, the day of First Sheaf.
(3) This very day of First
Sheaf Wave Offering Before the LORD Nisan 16,
was the first of fifty days
counted until Pentecost. Nisan
16 was in fact and truth “the third day according to the
Scriptures” so often encountered in the New Testament Scriptures for having
been the day of the resurrection of Christ from the dead. It was not a ‘feast-sabbath’,
or, the ‘weekly’ Sabbath but by
coincidence, which coincidence never happened per accident, but, especially
in the instance of Christ’s resurrection, happened “according to the Scriptures” according
to the predestination of our Almighty God and Saviour.
Thursun
Also, two 'feast days were specifically not said to be "holy
convocations", namely Passover [14 Nisan, "when the Passover lamb had
to be sacrificed" "between the evenings" (Lk. 22:7 - HCSB; Lev.
23:5, Num. 9:3 - YLT)] and 'firstfruits', normally, apparently observed, as
another has noted, 16 Nisan.
Sabres
Yet again, wrong! Despite the fact it was no ‘sabbath’, Passover 14 Nisan, “when the Passover lamb had
to be sacrificed” “between the evenings”,
in fact “the first day” of
the Passover Season as a whole, is
in Ex12:16 expressly called a ‘holy
convocation’. But in no later book
of the Old Testament is it ever again designated a ‘holy convocation’.
Thursun
However, two 'feast days were specifically not said to be
"holy convocations", namely Passover [14 Nisan, "when the Passover lamb had to be
sacrificed" "between the evenings" (Lk. 22:7 - HCSB; Lev. 23:5,
Num. 9:3 - YLT)] and 'firstfruits',
normally, apparently observed, as another has noted, 16 Nisan. The text does not give this specific date, but
merely references it as "after the sabbath". It is not 'on a
sabbath', hence ruling out its
occurring on the 'seventh day sabbath', as well as any other 'Sabbath'. (Emphasis
Sabres.)
Sabres
Objection! Have you not noticed, ‘the text’ – correctly – says, “He shall wave the sheaf … on the day after the sabbath
(11) … Count from the day after
the Sabbath, from the day that ye
brought the sheaf of
the wave offering.” How could you insert another day in between the day the sheaf
was waved and (according to ‘the text’) the very next day counted day one of fifty days? How? Only in
Lv23, ‘the text’ three times, 11, 15-16, gives the
specific date! Rather,
you draw a false corollary and a false deduction— yours in every respect, is a
distraction from the truth! Collins defines ‘distraction’, “mental turmoil or madness”.
Since you yourself very well knew the ‘sabbath’ of Passover was
Nisan 15, I cannot see you are not able to count one further day to Nisan 16
for First Sheaf. “... the text does not give this specific date, but merely references it as "after the sabbath"”—
Anyone can clearly see you ‘merely’ imply First Sheaf could come
any number of days “after the sabbath”, and
not necessarily on the day directly
after the sabbath of Passover, which is an unwarranted preclusion because ‘the text’
expressly ‘gives this specific date’: “The day after the Sabbath” of the Passover!
The fact, “... the text
does not give this specific date, but merely references it as "after the
sabbath"”, and the fact, “... It is not” by rule, “'on a sabbath'”, cannot
“hence rul(e) out ... its occurring on the 'seventh day
sabbath', as well as any other 'Sabbath'”. The fact
the text does not give the specific date of Nisan 16, but ‘merely references it as "after the sabbath" of the Passover; and the fact it is not by rule on a sabbath, can only rule out its being as such the Seventh Day Sabbath or for
that matter any other ‘sabbath’ per se.
But it does not ‘rule out’ ‘its occurring’
on the 'Seventh Day Sabbath', or, on
any other 'sabbath'!
Lv23:20, “The bread of
the firstfruits as a wave offering before the LORD ... you shall
proclaim on the same day that it is a holy convocation to you. You shall do no customary work on
it.” Despite it is not said of First Sheaf of Passover that it was a day of “holy convocation”, it of Shavuot (‘Pentecost’), is
said, and ‘hence’ both— since
they are fifty days apart and always fell on the same day of the week —both, despite
your ‘rule’, “All "Sabbaths" were holy convocations”— could land on the weekly Sabbath. There was nothing that prevented First Sheaf to fall on
the weekly, or any, ‘sabbath’. And nothing, since it happened according to the
predestination of God, could prevent that
one instance of First Sheaf coinciding with Jesus’ resurrection “the day after the sabbath”
of Passover of the year of his Crucifixion, to have occurred on
the Sabbath Day of the LORD, the ‘weekly’ Sabbath. Least of anything some
imagined ‘law’ that prohibited ‘work’ and ‘travel’ further than a Sabbath’s
journey on the Sabbath could have prevented it.
Both First Sheaf Wave Offering-day Nisan 16 and day of Pentecost
fifty days later, could fall, and usually did fall, on any, but same
day of the week— the one, Pentecost,
because by the Law, always a ‘sabbathly’ “holy convocation”; the other, First
Sheaf Nisan 16, only by co-incidence also a ‘sabbathly’ ‘holy convocation’.
Nisan 16, only if incidentally it coincided with the weekly Sabbath could
be viewed a ‘sabbathly’ ‘holy convocation’.
Since First Bread Wave Offering was, a “holy
convocation”, the Saddusaic ‘rule’” of “Day of First Fruits is always the First day of the
Week” is ‘ruled out’ and destroyed.
Thursun
As I contend, “firstfruits”
is not 'on a sabbath', hence ruling out its occurring on the 'seventh day
sabbath', as well as any other 'Sabbath'. Therefore I contend, 14 Nisan (and the ensuing
crucifixion of the Lord) occurred from "sundown Wednesday to sundown
Thursday (or the fifth day of the Hebrew calendar week), 15
Nisan (or "first of Unleavened Bread" - a Sabbath
) was on the sixth day of the Hebrew week, 16 Nisan
was from sundown Friday thru sundown Saturday, the seventh day of
the Hebrew week - a "Sabbath", and our
Lord came forth from the tomb the first day of the (next) week,
on "Firstfruits", which was that year 17
Nisan. (Emphasis Thursun)
Sabres
Denied! I have shown you, “First
Sheaf” is not ruled out to
having occurred 'on a sabbath', or, on the 'seventh day sabbath'! You just go on as if I haven’t said a
thing. But
your argument is contradicted by your own conclusion. Nisan 16 was, “from sundown Friday through sundown Saturday”—
accepted. Accepted also, “the seventh day of
the Hebrew week - a
"Sabbath"”. Yet
more, “the
Seventh Day (of the Hebrew week) the Sabbath of the LORD”— not just “a "Sabbath"”! Then denied,
your assertion, “which was that year, 17 Nisan”. Where did you get that ‘information’ from?
How did you ‘work it out’?
Then finally denied most
emphatically, your assertion, “our Lord came forth from the tomb the first
day of the (next) week”.
Perfect
where you say, “14 Nisan (and the ensuing crucifixion of the
Lord) occurred from "sundown Wednesday to sundown Thursday (or the
fifth day of the Hebrew calendar week), 15 Nisan (or
"first of Unleavened Bread" - a Sabbath )
was on the sixth day of the Hebrew week, 16 Nisan
was from sundown Friday thru sundown Saturday, the seventh day of
the Hebrew week - a "Sabbath" ...”,
but for your added fourth
day, Nisan 17, where did you get
that from? Why did you go on to spoil the truth
with having added, “... and our Lord
came forth from the tomb the first day of the (next) week, on
"First-fruits", which was that year 17 Nisan.” Come
again! You are correct in every detail; what requires of you to adjust, torque, twist, and wrest a fourth
day in, after “the third day according to the
Scriptures” you yourself have explained correctly?
Thursun
I never "added" a fourth day. That is your reckoning,
not mine. I am merely identifying them on a calendar. Although the first day of
the week is certainly 'the "fourth" day'.
Sabres
You what? “identified”, the dates, “on a calendar”?
You dated Friday on the weekly calendar, “15 Nisan (or "first of
Unleavened Bread" - a
Sabbath”; But “the
day after (this) Sabbath”,
Lv23:11, 15-16, you ‘rule out’, skip over, and place it straight onto “17 Nisan”?
But you say, ‘on a calendar’? O, I see, you “never "added" a fourth
day” ‘on a calendar’; you deleted the third day ‘on a calendar’!
Thursun
The
first day of the week is certainly 'the "fourth" day'. The problem I
see with a 'Friday' crucifixion, is that it does not allow any way for any of
the following phrases of "after three days" (Mt. 27:63;
Mk. 8:31), "the third day since these things happened"
(Lk. 24:21), or "so will the Son of Man be three days and three
nights in
the heart of the earth" (Mt. 12:40) to have any
sort of normal meaning whatsoever. But
the 'Thursday crucifixion' does! Nor
does it require one to 'adjust' (Read 'torque', 'twist', or 'wrest'!) other
Scriptures to 'fit', either.
Sabres
Ja, “the first day of
the week is certainly 'the "fourth" day'”; so by no means can it be “the third
day” of the Scriptures! From the most
simple to the most complex 'prophecies' concerning Christ it from the beginning
was clear Jesus would rise from the dead "In the Sabbath / on the Sabbath,
in the very light of its being" “the third day”; never, after the third on
the fourth day.
‘After three
days’ is not the same as ‘after the third day’. You cannot show
‘after the third day’ in the Scriptures! ‘After the third day’ must always be
interpreted literally because it is not a Biblical phrase, but an imagined idea
for literally a fourth day. ‘After the third day’ means ‘on the fourth day’, but
Jesus rose “on the third day”. Therefore the Scriptural
phrase ‘after three days’ must not be interpreted literally, but idiomatically for simply
what everybody knows is “the third day”
of the Passover-Scriptures— which was no ‘fourth day’ and no imagined idea
only, but “the third day / on the third day according to the Scriptures”; which again was the same as “in three
days” or literally “after two
days”.
From the
beginning, the most simple to the most complex 'prophecies' concerning Christ made
it clear Jesus was to rise from the dead "In the Sabbath / on the Sabbath,
in the very light of its being" “the third day” ... could this be said of
the First Day, one might have expected the First Day (Sunday) to have become
the day of Jesus' resurrection. But we find nothing of the kind concerning the
First Day in the Old Testament or New Testament the Word of sure Prophecy and
Promise of God's speaking to us in these last days in the Son.
This is how I was
taught to count:
One=14 Nisan (and the ensuing crucifixion of the Lord) occurred
from sundown Wednesday to sundown Thursday (or the fifth day of
the Hebrew calendar week),
Two=15 Nisan, "first
day of Unleavened Bread Feast / Eat" - a sabbath, which was
on the sixth day of the Hebrew week, Thursday night and Friday
day,
Three=16 Nisan from sundown Friday through the Sabbath Saturday
daylight until sundown Saturday, the seventh day of the Hebrew
week. “ON” this “Sabbath”, “IN” it, precisely as the Law ‘predicted’ “in its
fullness” (‘opse’) “in the very
daylight being”
(‘epiphoskousehi’) “towards / before the First Day of the week” (‘eis mian sabbaton’) --- Jesus rose
from the dead. This is not to 'adjust',
'torque', 'twist', and 'wrest' the Scriptures – this is the Scriptures in Mt28:1, literally.
Christ rose "the third day / on the third day / in the third day / after two
days". The ONLY 'idiomatic expression' of this single
truth is found in the use of the word 'after' in the phrase, "after the
third day", where the 'idiomatic' meaning is clearly the literal meaning
of all the other descriptions of the day upon which Christ rose from the dead,
which was the third day of his being in the claws of death and the pangs of
hell. It ended on the third day, in it, and upon it - yea, even through it, it
having been the Sabbath of the LORD your God!
On 17 Nisan the fourth day ‘after’
he had died, “He appeared first to
Mary Magdalene very early on the First Day of the week.” (Mk16:9) No Scripture says He would rise ‘on the fourth day’!
Thursun
Absolutely! He was NOT raised on the Sabbath! With all respect, Sabres, there is not one
verse of Scripture, that I'm aware of that ever even implies the Lord could or
would be raised on the Sabbath, anywhere. I am certainly no great Greek
scholar, by any stretch, but I think you are arriving at bad exegesis of Matt.
28:1, on which to build this. That verse does not stand alone against all other
Scripture, on this, but must be read in a harmonious effort. Secondly, the
exegesis of such, ignores the plural "Sabbaths", as well.
Sabres
“The
plural "Sabbaths"”
cannot make a difference, ‘ignored’ or not. I say again, it’s not the subject
now; it’s irrelevant.
There is not
one verse of Scripture on the subject of the Sabbath that (1) does not imply
God would and should have finished His eternal rest in Jesus Christ, and therefore, (2) should and would have finished His
eternal rest in Jesus Christ by raising
Him from the dead, and therefore, (3) would, and did, raise Christ from the
dead on the Sabbath Day. I am certainly no great Greek scholar, by any
stretch not, but I have arrived at unavoidable consequences, that consummated
in Mt28:1. That verse does not stand alone against all other Scripture, but is
found in perfect harmony. Right from the first reference in Scripture, “On the
Seventh Day God ended His work … and
He rested on the Seventh Day from
all his works … God blessed the
Seventh Day, and sanctified it BECAUSE THAT,
in it, He had rested from all His
works which God created and did”, God “thus concerning the Seventh
Day spake” “through the
Son”, of the Son, and, in
the Son.
The Past
Perfect is a Future Past Perfect, realised and brought to Perfection in the
(future) Christ. Take it if you can; I shall pray God that He will enable you
that you can take it.
The Scriptures
foretells Jesus would rise on the Sabbath; then it confirms He rose on the
Sabbath both on strength of the principles of Divine Rest on the Seventh Day
and of historic actualisation of God's foreordination in so many words of His
Eternal Covenant of Grace and Redemption. Newer ‘translations’ changed the true
words to under-gird their propaganda of the false Sunday-resurrection.
Conscience plays no part for them; it's old fashioned and too
unpretentious
to believe the literal Greek of Mt28:1 and other Scriptures. “He shall
think to change times and Law!”
The plural "Sabbaths" is the easiest of aspects in your argument. It
simply is the plural for the singular, and I won't waste anyone's time on
explaining something explained masterly by virtually all scholars worthy to be
called scholars. See my books where I refer to some of them – to indeed the
best – one by one.
Thursun
I
won't go into this in any depth, here, but both a 'Friday' crucifixion or a
'Wednesday' crucifixion require the Lord to 'violate' the prohibition of travelling
a greater distance than a "Sabbath days' journey" on the Sabbath, as
well. And I will also note that it took 2000 years for the phrase "between
the evenings" to become clear, as to the meaning, as well.
Sabres
From where your sudden concern for the strict adherence to the
letter of the Law? Wasn’t Christ above
the Law? And I won’t be able to see the
relevancy “the prohibition of travelling
a greater distance than a "Sabbath days' journey" on the
Sabbath”, or, “that it took 2000 years for the phrase
"between the evenings" to become clear”, has on the fact First Sheaf was waved before
the LORD on Nisan 16 and not on Nisan 17, or the relevancy on the fact First
Sheaf was waved before the LORD on any day of the week, and not only or always
on the day after the weekly Sabbath, Sunday.
Thursun
Our Lord fulfilled all the types, including being our "Firstfruits"
by being both the Passover Lamb slain, and presenting himself, the priest, as
the firstfruits of the dead, as well. (I Cor. 5:7; Rev. 5:12; Lev. 23:19-12;
Ps. 110: 4; Heb. 5: 6, 10; I Cor. 15:20, 23)
Sabres
Amen! Our Lord also
fulfilled the type of the Sabbath’s Rest by having presented Himself in
resurrection the First Sheaf Wave Offering from the dead before the LORD.
Thursun
I
am familiar with the fact that Matt. 28:1 has 'sabbatOn', a plural form of
Sabbath, as Wed2 pointed out. That has to mean more than one, as he surmised.
Sabres
Not at all! It is not our subject, I say again, but the Plural is
of a Singular, plainly.
Thursun
You ask Why
MUST the body be taken BEFORE sunset,...? Um, John 19:31 again? The Sabbath
started at sundown. And one, following the 'Mosaic law', doesn't do any work on
a Sabbath, maybe?? This is, again, why
that 'Passover' and 'Firstfruits' were not Sabbaths, unlike
several other feast days. Works for me!
Even though I have never, in my entire life, had any 'allegiance' to the
precepts of the 'Mosaic law', in any form - for as a Gentile, I never had it,
and now, as a Christian, I'm not now, nor have I ever been, under it.
Sabres
It has nothing
to do with whether one is under the law or not. It has everything to do with
the Law’s validity as the Word of God. You appeal to the Law non the less. Why
apologise to the Law if you’re not under it? I think it is because you don’t
understand the Law well enough that you protest— too much! The Law does not
prohibited all human activity of ‘work’ on the, or, on any, ‘sabbath’. In fact,
definite works are expressly commanded on sabbaths ... of any kind. Nisan 15
was, a ‘sabbath’; yet,
Why
in any case would the body be taken down before sunset if it had been hung only
a short while before? The crucified was etched off against
the setting sun; that was the idea. To hang it and virtually immediately take
the cursed down again, would defeat the end. It was the exposure that was
important. But as I have said before, Mercy provided the body of a cursed
should not “hang on the
pole all night”, but must be removed from the pole “before sunrise-light-of-morning”
and “that same (following) day must be buried”. Dt21:23 and other Scriptures. It was
the exposure that was important; more so, Mercy, that it’s shame should be
ended and won’t be seen a second time— “before sunrise”
should it be taken down!
But the body
must be taken down before sunset to
protect the dignity of Sunday-sacredness.
Trad
Was Jesus raised on the first day of the week like the Scriptures
say He did?
Sabres
The question is
unfairly phrased as if it already is a
proven fact that Jesus was raised on the First Day of the week! Truth is, it is a priori proven fact that Jesus would be raised on the Sabbath
Seventh Day. But
does the Scriptures say the First Day, or does the Scriptures imply, the First
Day? Or ... not at all? We must first
see before we can say!
Wed
The statements in Luke 13:32, 33 were made on Palm Sunday. It
clearly shows that Jesus would be
crucified on a Wednesday; on the third day from palm Sunday. What is the third day from Sunday? It is
Wednesday, not Thursday.
Sabres
From where do
you start counting “the third day”?
“from Palm Sunday”, to,
the day of crucifixion? Jesus would be raised,
“the third day”; now you say He would be raised the sixth day – three days
before death plus three days after death?
It’s not even amusing.
You
allege Jesus uttered Lk13:31-32 on Palm Sunday, while 31a expressly states, “The same
day …”. It was one of those ‘same’ days Jesus still “went through the villages, teaching, and journeying towards
From Ephraim Jesus started out towards
Mk11:1-11, Mt21:1-11, and Lk19:28-44 chronologically follow
immediately on Jn12:12. If you got this, the rest is very simple! Only follow
the time-indications of the four Gospels themselves. It is remarkable how
each day is not only recognisable from a definitive evening-beginning, but by a
clear middle or morning-episode as well as by its late-day ending!
Wed
Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the
whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the
heart of the earth. The three days and
three nights start when His body is placed
in the Earth. Not when He died. He was dead and off the cross before 6:00pm on Wednesday [which is the
beginning of the Jewish high sabbath Thursday]. He was placed in the Grave
Wednesday night.
Sabres
We are off topic. I gave much attention to these things. Refer ‘Lord’s Day’ books 1 and 2, ‘Crucifixion’, ‘Burial’.
Thursun
I have looked up virtually every verse I could find in about any 'standard'
version that used the words "in the Sabbath" or "on the
Sabbath". There are exactly three renderings of the phrase "in the
sabbath" in any standard versions, that I found. The YLT and KJV render
Ex. 31:15 thusly, and the KJV also renders Ezek. 46:4 in this manner. The NIV,
NASB, AMP, ESV, CEV, NKJV, DARBY, ASV, NLV, NIRV, NLT, HCSB, WE, and TNIV never
once use this phrase. That is 14 versions that never once use this exact
phrase. Yet most of the 16 versions I
checked use the exact phrase "on the Sabbath" an average of about 50
times with a few exceptions, the NLV which renders this as "On the day of
Rest" (61); YLT(24) and WE(31).
Sabres
To what good
is your distinction? Nobody contends! “In” and “on” the Sabbath mean just the
same. Nobody contends your statistics. It is the one place that is important
here, and that is Mt28:1.
Thursun
And I would add two more things. "In the very light of its
being", as referring to "the Sabbath" is merely a
"theological construct" "from the get-go". There is no such
wording even remotely close to this, anywhere in Scripture, to my knowledge.
Sabres
You say only
because you have not obtained that knowledge yet.
Thursun
Not
one of the 54 uses of "on the sabbath" found in the version I use,
the NKJV, even remotely refers to Jesus and/or a resurrection "on
the sabbath", by any stretch. (I checked them all, in their context.) It
simply isn't found there and Scripture does not teach this, regardless
of what
you are saying, or how many times you keep saying it, the 15 books
to your credit, notwithstanding.
Sabres
I would not
contest your findings at all! I only ask, check up in e.g. your NKJV for “After the Sabbath” --- the word ‘after’ instead
of ‘on’, or, ‘in’, KJV. Then you will see what I mean.
Thursun
I will ask my question directly. What Scriptures foretold that
Jesus would rise on the Sabbath? Nor are there any Scriptures of which I'm
aware that ‘confirm He did rise on the Sabbath’. And as the
"firstfruits" He would have presented Himself to the LORD (the
Father) "after the Sabbath" in accordance with Lev. 23:6, as I've
previously stated. Just "saying
this", as you seem to be doing, does not make it so.
Sabres
“What Scriptures
foretold that Jesus would rise on the Sabbath?” Here’s one
example, you, not anyone, is able to dispute, “God the Seventh Day,
rested”.
Quoting you,
“... as
the "firstfruits" He would have presented Himself to the LORD (the
Father) "after the Sabbath" in accordance with Lev. 23:6, as ...”
“As ...” not ‘as’ you “have previously stated” and here again, on Sunday the fourth day after ‘the three days’; but “according
to the Scriptures the third day” (1Cor15:5). Not ‘as’ you “have previously stated” on Sunday after the weekly Sabbath; but “on the day (immediately) after the
Sabbath” of the Passover Feast (Lv23:11, 15, 16). Ja, this is what I have written – 17 ‘books’
– on; which you may read from the web (http://www.biblestudents.co.za).
But, "In the
beginning God ...."
"spake",
"concerning the Seventh Day, THUS: And God (not us) the Seventh Day from all His
works (not ours, but “to us-ward”) RESTED", Hb4:4-5. If not this verse
speaks of Jesus Christ, show me the Scripture that does! For God NEVER
'rested', but rested He "in the SON"; God NEVER "THUS, SPAKE", but "in the SON", “in these last days”. If the Scriptures there right at its
beginning speaks of God's creating from nothingness, darkness and chaos, to
"the Seventh Day"
and "Rest" –
"The Rest"
which is His
– it speaks of
salvation already -- salvation in and through Christ "in these
last days" – the Christian
era. First, the word ‘Rest’, already tells me (I pray for and to you, the same)
of Jesus' resurrection and triumph over nothingness, darkness and chaos, on the
Seventh Day. "Therefore", says the Scriptures (not I)
"the Seventh Day is the Sabbath Day (the Day of Rest)
of
the LORD your God".
I have written
many times on the Scriptures indicating the Seventh Day Sabbath for to be the
day of Jesus' resurrection; read them. Read of the first and second giving of
the Ten Commandments. Read of Athaliah's
evil reign destroyed on the Sabbath and the “Son of the King” enthroned. Read of the prophets'
emphasis on “the goings in”
and “the goings out”
to be “marked well!” Read
of Isaiah 58 how that Sabbath-prophecy, foretells how Christ would be lifted
high and made to ride over all the earth --- in resurrection from the dead on
the Sabbath Day – yea, even because of His enjoyment of the Sabbath Day! There
is NO 'Sabbath-Scripture' that does not first of all apply to Christ and to Him
in resurrection and exaltation and glory on the Sabbath Day of GOD'S
APPOINTMENT to that END, the FINISHING of ALL the works of God! "The Sabbath
was made for Man" -
first for Jesus Christ the God-Man, and ONLY in Him and through Him for us-‘men’!
Show me
anything like this with reference to the First Day of the week! See the
one-ness of the Word of God in the Old and New Testaments – and you see the
Sabbath God's chosen Day-of-Rest because of Jesus Christ!
I think now of the dating of the New Testament books, what this single factor
means for God's Sabbath Day. Don't think Paul's are the last remarks on the
Sabbath in the New Testament; don't think of his Letters as the Church's final
decision regarding the Sabbath Day. No, the latest books of the
And what do
you find concerning the Sunday in the Gospels? That on Sunday Jesus appeared to
a few – just like He for forty days more would continue to do. But you will
read (from the unblemished KJV in this instance), that “In the
Sabbath” He indeed did
rise from the dead -- from which Truth all freeing-Truth flows, and “Therefore
remains for the People of God, keeping of the Sabbath Day.” (Hb4:9)
Wed
The Day of the Firstfruits was the First day of the Week.
The Pentecost was always the First day of the week.
Jesus was resurrected on the first day of the week as the Firstfruits were
waved on Sundays.
You have no proof that the Firstfruits day was not the first day
of the week.
Sabres
Making
sweeping statements brings nobody further, Wed. But I have given you the
Scriptures, and you have no word in answer. I'll give them again, as short as I
can,
Friday:
Jesus was buried on Friday, Nisan 15, “a Great Day
that day was”, says John,
in which Jesus was buried in the “afternoon” of “the Fore Sabbath”, “The Preparation”. That day had had begun with an evening
before on which first the
Jews – to save face –, asked Pilate to have the bodies removed, because the
prospective day would be their Great Day of deliverance: Passover
Sabbath-Feast-Day, day to let the
past go up in triumphant flame of life, and the remains of it be returned to
dust. (Ex12:10) “And after these things, Joseph went in to Pilate and asked for
Jesus' body” and did not “let it hang
on the tree all that (ensuing) night”, but removed it from the cross, and “that very
same day”, “according
to the Scriptures”
(Dt21:23), buried it. After the women had seen how and “where they
laid the body, they returned home and prepared spices, day-having-turned-towards the Sabbath .” (Lk23:54) So ended the Friday of
Jesus’ burial. Jesus, therefore,
was crucified on Thursday morning, Nisan 14 – which had had begun the evening
before, when, “at the table … Jesus' hour had come” (Jn13:1,
Lk22:7/14, Mk14:12/17, Mt26:17/20) to glorify the Father finally. In
the afternoon of that day “the ninth hour” (3 pm), Jesus “gave the ghost”, and “everybody” deserted the scene of the cross and “went home”. So on Thursday before it had become
evening AGAIN, and before sunset, Jesus had had been crucified and died,
and had had been deserted by all!
Saturday:
Jesus was
buried on Friday, Nisan 15. The day after
Jesus had been buried, had had begun
with an evening when “the women
started
to rest the Sabbath”. The Day of First Sheaf Wave Offering and
Day of Resurrection-Life came, and had to be reckoned, “according
to the Scriptures” in this
regard, “on the day
after the Sabbath
(of Passover Feast)”. So, First Sheaf had to have been on Saturday. So it
happened, exactly, Mt28:1.
Jesus Christ
our Passover is the Passover of God, from God – He is the Institution of it. The
institution of the Passover does not originate in the Old Dispensation; God's
true Passover belongs to us, Christians, before it belongs to anybody else.
Look for its chronology in the New Testament; indeed in Jesus Christ and His
history in fact; then confirm it from the OT. "The third
day I finish (the works of
My Father)", not, ‘the fourth day’! -- These are Jesus' own
words, establishing both the Passover of God and the Sabbath Day of the LORD
your God. May God help you to understand these things, for my attempts are
weak.
Wed
The
three days and three nights starts when His body is placed in the Earth.
Sabres
No! "Break down this temple and I shall re-build it in three days" -- it says Jesus’ dying and death - His descending and
tasting of sin's reward into death - was the beginning of the three days. And
the three days ended when the temple of His body was raised from the dead more
glorious than all temples of before and for eternity: "Exalted far
above" marks the end;
descended into lowest hell, its beginning. "MY HOUR IS COME!" Jesus also declared the hour in
which His suffering would be the glorification of the Father, has come, and it marked the beginning of the three days
and three nights the Son of Man would have been "in the heart of the
earth" –
figurative
language for DEATH and HELL – not literal language for a literal grave!
Wed
When the Bible said "it was almost (nearing) the
Sabbath" it doesn't mean the regular sabbath but the High Sabbath. It is
very very sure. Bible kept the silence about the distinction there, between
High Sabbath and Regular Sabbath. However, what we can imagine is the
atmosphere of the feast. Normally, people rested in the feast joyfully during
these Sabbath.
Sabres
Where Luke
says "the Sabbath was coming on" (23:54), it was the weekly
Sabbath that neared, on, “the Fore-Sabbath-Preparation-Day” that was Friday. This day Friday, had
begun “already”, Mk
and Mt say, “when it had had become evening” about 21 hours before, 15:42, 27:57. Of the same
day, Friday, John also, at its beginning,
says, "It being a Great Day that (prospective) Sabbath". It was Friday which was also
the Feast Sabbath-Day that in
Mk15:42, Mt27:57 and Jn14:31 had started,
and that after Mt27:62-66, but before Mk16:1a, and with Lk23:54, ended. During
this day says John, “they buried Jesus because of the Jews’ preparations / Preparation
Day".
Matthew
afterwards recalls these ‘preparations
of the Jews' where he
speaks of "the following morning after the / their preparations", 27:62, when the Jews on the Sabbath went to ask to seal the grave “because it
was the third day already”.
It is very
sure, Wed! The Bible kept NO silence about the distinctions here, it makes
extra effort to explain it fully! Here in this place it distinguishes between
High Sabbath and Regular Sabbath by implication also! What we can imagine the atmosphere
of the feast was like, should be Passover-orientated.
The three 'first' days of the Passover must each stand out clearly. Normally,
people rested in the Sabbath joyfully during the Feast; nevertheless, on the
Feast Sabbath, only 'servile' work and work for gain were prohibited. But
whereas even a burial was prohibited on the weekly Sabbath, on the Feast
Sabbath it was compulsory. Look at the history of the Exodus where the remains
of the lamb (after it had been slain
on the day of Nisan 14 and had been eaten on the night of
Nisan 15) had to be carried away
into the wilderness and
had to be
returned to dust by burning, Ex12:10, symbolic of the destruction of sin and
death in the hell of Christ’s anguish and in the last day in the hell of the
lake of fire.
Thursun
(To
Wed) The passage in Matt. 12:39-40 says
not one thing about 'His body being placed in the tomb/grave/earth', as you
will. Merely read the text, folks. [It is not that hard to do, in English, for
a person with a fair command of the English language. (I admit, I do not know
about other languages, not 'reading' or 'speaking' any others.)] The
"Wednesday crucifixion" theory is
built primarily on the two faulty foundation pillars of this, and
"'exactly' 72 literal hours" being eisegeted into Matt. 12:39-40,
neither of which is in this text.
The AMP, DARBY, KJV, NLT, YLT, and ESV all render “in the heart of
the earth” this way. (Inexplicibly, the NCV does not here, but paraphrases it
to read 'grave'.)
There is no real dispute on how the Greek text reads here, either. The last
half of v.40 verse reads: "ουτως
εσται ο υιος
του ανθρωπου
εν τη καρδια
της γης τρεις
ημερας και
τρεις νυκτας"
according to the TR1550, WHNU, UBS (Aland/Black/ Metzger), and MT
(Hodges/Farstad), with only the MT listing any 'real' variation shown, and that
not affecting the real sense of the verse. The undoubtedly correct rendering of
the last part of the phrase is "in the heart of the earth, three days and
three nights". The paraphrases that render any of this verse as
"grave" are, in no way, on any solid linguistic ground for this
interpretation, masquerading as a translation. Nor is it possible for one to
come up with a "72" number out of this text, by any stretch.
Sabres
Sabres
believes three days where of three days it is written; and Sabres believes
three days and three nights where it is written - only in Mt12:40. Here are those six time-units the Word of Jesus
recorded:
Wednesday
evening the Fifth Day (Thursday) beginning,
in the upper room at the table, and Wednesday night through Gethsemane until
the morning of Day Five of the week, Thursday, when He was delivered to be
crucified; led away, crucified, died, and was deserted by everyone! Until:
The second
night of the three had begun
when the Jews asked Pilate for the bodies to be taken away, and Joseph after
this asked for the body to be buried -- the day of Friday's first half, on
which He was buried according to the Passover Scriptures that self-same day –
the second of the three days of Mt12:40.
Then the third
time came the evening and the
third of the three nights as the women began to “rest the Sabbath according
to the Command” of the
Fourth Commandment. Then came the morning and the third day of the three days
of the three days and three nights, and the Jews hurriedly asked the grave be
sealed seeing it was the third day "this Man said", and "In the
after-noon the Sabbath's fullness, when suddenly there was an earthquake and an
angel of the Lord from the heavens descended ..." Christ was raised from the dead "THE ANGEL
EXPLAINED TO THE WOMEN!"
... on Sunday morning a little after sunrise.
Trad
It is kind of like the argument about
pre-mil, the young earth, and the six day Creation. Who cares? God created it,
God has the end times in control, and Jesus was crucified on the day appointed
in God's plan.
Sabres
You are so complacent because all those easy-outs suit your idea of the
chronology of the suffering and resurrection; you simply don’t care for what
the Scriptures say.
But what, if
God also 'appointed' the day Jesus would rise from the dead, “according to the Scriptures”?
Would it have been pointless and meaningless? It would be the fulfilling of His
Promises and Faithfulness. It would be the Finishing of all the Words and works
of God. It would be God in His faithfulness and truthfulness, in control
of the End
Times, caring about His creation, “all the works He had made”. It would be God the God of the
Sabbath Day, and about the day, the Sabbath Day of the LORD your God. And “THUS, God
concerning the Seventh Day DID speak!” We must find out if God
did, “appoint a day”
as He had “appointed a Man”
Jesus for to have risen from the dead on. I dare tell you it in fact is so God
did! And for anybody who read the Old Testament for Scripture, there's only one
day that would ‘fit’ -- the
weekly Sabbath Day. For there is nothing the like about the First Day of the
week in all of Scripture.
Trad
Will knowing what day Jesus died, help
the lost souls of this world, I think not, what matters is, Jesus died, rose
again, and is alive today, the blood shed at Calvary 2000 years ago is
cleansing men to this day, or was it yesterday,
or is it tomorrow ... it matters not,
"everyone who looks to the Son and who believes in him shall have eternal
life.
Sabres
I also wonder why God would take the trouble to 'inspire' so much about the
Sabbath in the Scriptures, and busied Himself not only with the saving of men,
but also with their being saved status and life as the Church!
Thursun
I
may yet have to come back and post why the Lamb was 'taken' on "Palm
Sunday", and killed 'Thursday', having to do with Jesus keeping the
Sabbath.
Sabres
Take Jesus our Passover
Lamb as the Rule, even of the 'OT' Passover. If the OT says the lamb
should be "separated" on Nisan 10, then it is because it would
be, and had been, the case in the case of Jesus Christ. (That is 'my
eschatology' I don't ask you to accept for your own. God's will shall be.) Seen posteriorly from this point of view (if
you can take what I say), the Passover Lamb had been 'taken' or 'separated'
Nisan 10. Nisan 14 He had to be slaughtered;
Nisan 15, buried, Nisan 16, raised— yea, had to!
Take Friday the "Fore-Sabbath"
– which we are told in so many words was the day on which the Lamb was buried, Friday must have been Nisan 15,
and Thursday must have been
Nisan 14, "Day before the
Passover Feast" (Jn13:1) on which the Lamb was slaughtered;
On Wednesday (Nisan 13) it
had to have been said, "two days ... the Feast (sabbath)", Mk14:1;
On Tuesday (Nisan 12)
it had to have been said, "two days ... crucified (Preparation of Passover)", Mt26:2;
Monday
(Nisan 11)
Mk11:12, "the next day" ... since ...
Sunday
(Nisan 10) Jn12:12, "the
next day" ... 'Palm Sunday' ...
since ...
Saturday
(Nisan 9) Jn12:1, "where
Lazarus stayed ... lunch" ...
since ... "Six days before the Feast
Day" on Nisan 15!
Friday
(Nisan 8) Jn12:12 arrival in
If Jesus was
crucified on Nisan 14, Thursday – according to your own stance – and was raised "the third day according to the Scriptures" (no matter what your
stance), he had to have been raised on Saturday. That would be on Nisan 16 and Day of First Sheaf BECAUSE
Resurrection and First Sheaf correspond.
Not being mentioned 'Nisan 16' doesn't mean Nisan 16 had nothing to do with the
Feasts. It fell right in the heart of the Feast, how could it not be part of
it? If Nisan 15 is called the sabbath of the Passover – according to your own stance – then surely "the day
after the sabbath (of the
Passover)" – Day of First Sheaf – is Nisan 16! Most common sense!
"The third
day according to the Scriptures" -- which Scriptures? - the Passover Scriptures – Lv23 i.a.
Thursun
“The second point
I made was that "firstfruits" is not said to be "a holy
convocation", or "Sabbath", in the text, unlike "the First
day of the feast of unleavened bread", which is specifically designated as
15 Nisan (Abib), and is always a "Sabbath".”
Sabres
“... "firstfruits"
is not said to be "a holy convocation", or "Sabbath" ...”
Correct!
But, “... unlike "the
First day of the feast of unleavened bread", which is specifically
designated as 15 Nisan (Abib), and is always a "Sabbath" ...” “... is always a
"Sabbath"”? ... What,
or which, ‘sabbath’? Do you mean the weekly Sabbath? We’ll, then you’re wrong
--- as shown elsewhere more times I can remember, that 15 Nisan could ‘float’
through the week as any of the dates of the Passover. But so do you too
maintain, Thursun!
In fact, Nisan
15 is taken for granted in Lv23 as “‘the’ sabbath” –
which could only mean the ‘sabbath’ of,
the Passover as such: it belonged not to the ‘week’. But so do you too
maintain, Thursun!
What could
never vary, was the day on day sequence of the Passover MONTH. Never could one day be skipped or inserted in its number
or chronology. It says in so many words: “Observe the MONTH of Abib!” People unwilling to obey this command
of the
Word, has too
often taken the liberty to chop out and or plug in days and dates at will. (And
I at the present stage in my life’s span, am getting annoyed by its frequency
and audacity!)
From this most
simple as certain fact, I say, that if Nisan 14 was a Thursday and Christ
crucified on it, then Nisan 15 was a Friday, and the weekly Sabbath, was Nisan
16 and “the third day” of “the three days” (Not, of four days!), so that
Jesus the Passover Lamb of God, had to have been and in fact had been raised
from the dead as would be expected and was commanded from the beginning of the
revelation of the grace of God, “On the Sabbath Day”, “God thus concerning the Seventh Day
having spoken.”
But antichrist
envied the Sabbath this divine Truth and needed it for its own idolatrous
substitute for the Sabbath of God and Jesus our Lord, and in transgression of
the Commandment of God coveted it, and in transgression of both the
Commandments Thou shalt not steal and Thou shalt not kill, robbed the
Resurrection of Jesus from the Sabbath, murdering it, to in transgression of
the Commandment of God parade its idol in worship on the Day of the Lord Sun
... going on to this day from the time Paul wrote Galatians 4:10.
Nisan 16 from
this, it is to be concluded without a shadow of doubt, is implied as certain
and sure as inferred throughout the Scriptures, to have been the day of the
Waving of the First Sheaf of winter harvest in figure of Christ the First Sheaf
of all saved. And that it like all the other days of the Passover Season,
through history has floated from any day to any day of the week, in the last
day in the fullness of time, to have come to rest on the Day of God’s eternal
dispensation, election, destination and sanctification for that for all times
co-incidence, “On the Sabbath Day of the week” : “sabbatohn”, Mt28:1 ... literal and true to the Word
of God!
Thursun
Nope!!
16 Nisan is never named, having to do with the feasts! In fact, the only
occurrence of "sixteenth day of the first month" (Nisan) in
Scripture, had to do with Hezekiah ordering the filth cleaned from the Temple
in II Chronicles 29:17, where this was completed on the outer areas ("the
vestibule of the LORD") on the 16th day of the first month. In fact, this
is the only reference to the 16th day of any month found in Scripture, to my
knowledge.
Sabres
You claim “16 Nisan is
never named, having to do with the feasts!” But on the contrary,
Nisan 16 is presupposed ‘with the feasts’ as no other date ever— not even the
Passover dates of 14 and 15 Nisan. The Passover in the very instance of
2Chr29-30 could be – had to be – postponed because of the uncleanness that on
the appointed time, Nisan 16, had to be cleansed first, before they could be
celebrated. Nisan 16 had to be observed despite in its true time, in fact
exactly because of, the uncleanness of the People and temple; so Jesus first
had to come “in the fullness of time” to make atonement for sin, before the
People could truly celebrate Passover in truth and in spirit. Cleansing was of
supreme and conditional importance for Passover and Sabbaths’ celebration. That
cleansing was only finished when Jesus Christ broke the bonds of sin and death
through resurrection from the dead.
From inner
witness therefore one must conclude Nisan 16 is meant even though it may not be
mentioned. This too, is the only
possible explanation of the calling Nisan 14
a holy convocation in Ex12:16, but not in Lv23, where only Nisan 15 is
deemed a ‘sabbath’ ... of ‘Convocation’, and in Lv23:20, on
Pentecost, “The priest shall wave … the bread of the firstfruits as
a wave offering before the LORD … 21 And you shall proclaim on the same day that
it is a holy convocation to
you.”
Thursun
I am not sure of all you are driving at, but would note that Ex.
12:16 does not mention 14 Nisan, but refers to the seven day period of Nisan
15-21 inclusive, with the 1st and 7th days of this period being "holy
convocations", where the only thing one was allowed to do was prepare
food. (Ex. 12:16)
Sabres
Blunder! “... Ex. 12:16
does not mention 14 Nisan, but refers to the seven day period of Nisan 15-21
inclusive ...” Exodus mentions
14 Nisan only – it does not mention Nisan 15, like the rest of the Old Testament does. That is because Exodus mostly uses the ‘old’
day-reckoning from sunrise to
sunrise, but in two instances at least, it seems the sunset-reckoning was already known, viz. 12:15, “even the first
day … (un)leavened bread [eat] from the first day …” as were 14 Nisan not one of the 7
days of unleavened bread eat; And 12:18
that
mentions “one
and twentieth day” or 21st Nisan
that can be one of the 7 days of unleavened bread eat only if the day’s
night-part formed its first half. The
date Nisan 21 in Exodus therefore, must have originated when,
as in all the subsequent books of the OT, the ‘(Passover) Feast-of-Unleavened-Bread-(Eat)’
Nisan 15, had become a ‘sabbath’ of
‘holy convocation’. Nisan 14 as it
were became the eighth day of the
Feast Period and as it were became included
in the Passover Feast as “The Preparation
of the Passover”, Jn19:14.
Note Mk14:12 et al, ‘a-dzumos’ = ‘removal / without leaven’ (it does not say,
‘bread’) “when without leaven(-adzymos) … the
passover had to be slain”
(Lk22:7).
The first day
of Unleavened Bread Eaten (‘feasted > ‘Feast’), Nisan 15, in Exodus, was not 15 Nisan, but was,
Nisan 14. The lamb was slain on Nisan 14
“in the afternoon”, and eaten “in the night after” on Nisan 14 – which (later) became the
night-half beginning of Nisan 15 in which the lamb was eaten. Ex12:6/8. [On
the change of Nisan 14 into one half remaining 14 Nisan and the other half
becoming the first half of Nisan 15, see Book 1/1.] As I have said, you will
notice that Exodus has both aspects of the Passover, Slaughter, and, Eat, on
the fourteenth day of the First Month
– Slaughter in the afternoon of the fourteenth, and the Eat of the lamb, after
sunset in the night ... of the ... fourteenth!
In the books after Exodus, the Eat
of the lamb is always on
Nisan 15 – in its beginning; in its night-part. Only one explanation for this (seemingly contradictory)
datings is possible, At first sacrificial / ceremonial days were reckoned from
sunrise to sunrise; later on – but still very early (see above, Ex12:16a) –
their reckoning was changed from sunset to sunset, as it stayed permanently. So
actually you should have noticed that Ex. 12:16 does not mention “15 Nisan” at all, but refers to the seven days of ‘Unleavened Bread Eat/Feast’ at a stage in
history Passover began to begin with Nisan 14
and would have finished on Nisan 20,
had not the sunset reckoning of day already
been introduced.
The seven days
of the Passover-Feast of ‘Unleavened-Bread-EAT/FEAST’ in Exodus overlapped with
the day of the removal of yeast and slaughter of the lamb; after Exodus, the
ULB Feast/Eat remained seven days
while Nisan 14 from then on retained the two aspects of ‘The Passover’ – the
things of “The Preparation Day”, the slaughter of the
lamb and the removal of yeast or
leaven, only. But both aspects – ‘preparation’ as such and Unleavened Bread
Eat/Feast’ as such – became the conglomerated Passover Feast Season of eight
days.
Therefore in Lv23:11b, “on the morrow after the sabbath”
unmistakably means on the day after
Nisan 15. The concept is repeated in verse 15, where the Day of First
Sheaf is counted the first to Shavuot or ‘Pentecost’ – ‘Fifty Days’. In various
other OT Scriptures you will find the very order confirmed, e.g., Joshua
5:10-11. See in Dt16:1-11 the immediate sequence of Passover until Pentecost
without brake within the “seven weeks”.
And finally the definitive date of the last day of UB: Nisan 21! There can be no mistaking “the day after the
sabbath” of the Passover Feast, Nisan 15, without interruption “on the day
after”, was followed with First Sheaf Wave Offering”
Cf. Neh8:18, “Understand the ‘reading’ ...
understand the words of the Law”!! (vv. 8, 13) – Now, see 2Chron29:17!!
Nisan 16 undoubtedly was ‘the third
day’ of the eight days of the observance of the month of Abib, of the
Passover-Feast! But in that year the Passover’s first two days Nisan 14 and 15 could
not be kept due to the idolatrous pollution done to the temple, priests and
People!
This incident
of the cleansing of the sanctuary in the days of king Hezekiah is rich in
prophetic symbolism. The temple had to be cleansed first, which cleansing was
completed on the otherwise ‘normal’ third day of Passover, Nisan 16, day of
First Sheaf Wave Offering, “Before the LORD”! The Lord shall only be approached
in holiness! The day of first sheaf wave
offering, Nisan 16, is the
culmination and concentration in worth of both the slaughter of the Passover
lamb and its eating. Without a cleansed sanctuary, sacrifice and ceremony are
useless and its having been kept would have been useless, and in fact could not
be allowed. Because in the first
place Jesus Christ rose from the dead, the sacrifice of Himself atoned for
sin and saved the sinner. In 2Chronicles 29-30 Nisan 16 as it were takes in
first place in sequence of Passover-Feast-days as though seen retrospectively
from the point of view of its Fulfilment in Christ Jesus.
Thursun
I'm not exactly sure what you are attempting to say with all the
rest of this, either, frankly, except for drawing a conclusion for 16 Nisan.
And I would also note that Deut. 16 does not name dates, beyond 15 Nisan,
either, for the period through Pentecost, just as Lev. 23 does not. Why? One
reason is what I have already stated. [BTW, the days of harvesting the grain
(and the presentation of the "first-fruits" wave sheaf)
could not have started on 16 Nisan when that date fell on a
regular weekly Sabbath.]
Sabres
“Deut. 16 does not name dates, beyond 15 Nisan ... for the period
through Pentecost, just as Lev. 23 does not.” “Just as Lev. 23 does not”? But what have I wasted my breath on, when I
showed you, Leviticus 23 ‘does name
dates, beyond 15 Nisan’, in these words, “the day after the sabbath” of Passover? Why have you
yourself argued for 15 Nisan as this in Lv23 referred to ‘sabbath’ of the
Passover? You contradict yourself, because you do not speak truth.
“One reason what I have already stated”,
you say, “[BTW, the days of harvesting the grain (and the presentation of
the "first-fruits" wave sheaf)...”. Concerning these very days, Deuteronomy
16:8-9 has this to say, “Six days thou shalt eat
unleavened bread: and on the seventh shall be a solemn assembly to the Lord thy
God: thou shalt do no work therein.” Now because you defined your
principle, “All "Sabbaths" were holy convocations; why was it
necessary to designate this particular one (15 Nisan) as "a High
day", if not for the first feast day of "unleavened bread"?
(Lev. 23:6-7)”, I ask you, are ‘dates, beyond 15 Nisan’
implied— implied as good as ‘named’ in Deuteronomy 16, ‘just as’ they are implied as good as ‘named’ in
Leviticus 23? Are they, or are they
not? What say you?
The date and day of Nisan 16 as “the third day according to the
Scriptures” of Passover, are implied throughout the OT Scriptures as ‘The Law’
as were they ‘named’. It is an undeniable truth. Your rhetoric against
its truth is fruitless.
Thursun
I have already told you, BTW, the days of harvesting the grain
(and the presentation of the "first-fruits" wave sheaf) could not
have started on 16 Nisan when that date fell on a regular weekly Sabbath.
Sabres
Which had been a groundless and fruitless attempt. Labour on a
‘sabbath’ was your actual argument, and I have shown you from the
Passover’s history how certain work on the Passover’s ‘sabbath’
actually was mandatory!
Thursun
A second reason is that the Hebrew calendar underwent a periodic
"update" with the periodic insertion of "an added extra
month" (Second Adar) about once every three years, or so, to keep the
lunar calendar on a more or less even keel with the solar Calendar. Twelve 29-30
day lunar months totalling about 355 days simply do not ~365 1/4 days make! Or
in other words, the Hebrew calendar has a built in error of about 10 days every
year, without correction. (That does not affect the calculation of Pentecost,
however, but is merely added for information.) There are always two potential
"dates" for Pentecost, depending upon the year, but it was always
exactly ("count") 50 days after "first-fruits". Probably
why, like "first-fruits", there is no particular date assigned to it,
for both can and do "move", unlike "Passover" (14 Nisan),
"Feast of unleavened bread" (15 Nisan), "Trumpets" (1
Tishri), "Day of Atonement" (10 Tishri) and "Tabernacles"
(beginning on 15 Tishri).
Sabres
All this may sound good, but unfortunately for your standpoint is
worthless. In fact, these argumentations of yours based on a determination of
the year’s beginning from any day of the week so that Nisan 16 like any other
date of the Passover-Season could fall on any day of the week, contradicts your
assertion that “the presentation of the "first-fruits" wave sheaf) could
not have started on 16 Nisan ...”, and further demolishes your
basic claim, “... when that date fell on a regular weekly Sabbath”.
Yet you assert, “There are always
two potential "dates" for Pentecost”? “... like "first-fruits", there is no particular date
assigned to it”? You
ignore the simplest language possible of Leviticus 23:11, 15-16 that tells you
Nisan 15 was day of eating the Passover and is called Passover’s Sabbath. Leviticus
tells you the ‘particular date assigned to’ “wave the first sheaf”, was “the day after the
Sabbath” of
Nisan 15 – so that there is no ‘potential date’ for
the First Sheaf to be waved besides ‘the particular date assigned to it’, Nisan
16.
And something else, without warrant and contrary actual fact
Scripturally as well as historically or traditionally, you just assert, “"Passover"
(14 Nisan), "Feast of unleavened bread" (15 Nisan) (etc) ... do not move”
... while all the time you were the
one who argued for the fact they do
‘move’? Truth is “"Passover" (14 Nisan), "Feast of unleavened
bread" (15 Nisan)”, etc. do move!
Their yearly dates were fixed; but their fixed month’s days, moved through all
the days of the week. It is an unarguable fact all the ‘feasts’ or ‘holy
convocations’ ‘moved’, or, ‘floated’ through the week. Ask any Jew. But much
easier and more reliable, ask the Scriptures.
Thursun
I
would once again note that the seven days of Unleavened bread are Nisan 15
through Nisan 21, inclusive.
Sabres
I fully agree; undeniable fact.
Thursun
That is 7 days. Try it by counting on your fingers. (Batteries do
sometimes conk out in our calculators, you know!) You'll see this. Nisan 14 through Nisan 21 is
8 days.
Also how (or why) exactly does one, like you claim you did, "arrive at
Nisan 21 within "seven weeks"!", to begin with? From when?? For
why??
Sabres
“Seven weeks” are “fifty
days after the Sabbath” to Pentecost “counted”. The first 8 days of Passover were
(1) “Preparation of
Passover” Nisan 14, slaughter of
lamb, removal of leaven;
(2) “The Sabbath” of
Passover Nisan 15, eat / feast of
lamb and first day of Unleavened Bread Eat; to earth with remains;
(3) “The day after the
Sabbath” Nisan 16, “thou shalt wave
the sheaf”, first counted of fifty days (7 weeks) to Pentecost; Second day of
unleavened bread eat;
4/17 and 5th/18, 6th/19, 7th/20 and 8th/21st day of Nisan, Ex2:18.
I refer back to your observation, “Nope!! ... 16
Nisan is never named, having to do with the feasts! In fact, the only
occurrence of "sixteenth day of the first month" (Nisan) in
Scripture, had to do with Hezekiah ordering the filth cleaned from the Temple
in II Chronicles 29:17, where this was completed on the outer areas ("the
vestibule of the LORD") on the 16th day of the first month. In fact, this
is the only reference to the 16th day of any month found in Scripture, to my
knowledge.”
What does ‘the filth cleaned from the Temple’ in 2Chronicles 29:17 on Nisan 16 hold for the Prophetic significance of First
Sheaf seeing it was figurative of Jesus’ resurrection from the dead whereby our
sins were cleansed from the temple of His habitation, us, His Church? I believe
Romans 5:10 has precisely the
Passover-significance-of-order
underlying it, where Paul declares, “For if, when we were enemies we
were reconciled to God by the death of his Son (Nisan 14, Lamb slaughtered), MUCH MORE
being reconciled shall we be saved by His LIFE” of First Sheaf Wave Offering before the LORD – Nisan 16!
Jesus’ resurrection has ultimate ‘cleansing
/ ‘reconciling’ power
of ‘His LIFE’ – “MUCH MORE” than without there could be any, forgiveness of sins, any, ‘SALVATION by His life’. “If Christ be not raised you are yet
in your sin” i.e., not “washed” / “cleansed from our sins in
His blood” or “saved” (Rv1:5). “So also is
the resurrection of the dead, it is sown in corruption; it is raised in
incorruption (of
cleanliness).” The temple’s floor was
cleansed on Resurrection Day; Jesus on the day of His Death, washed the feet of
them that walked the temple’s floors, then asked them, “Know ye
what I have done to you?”
Dear Thursun, nothing of the OT happened without its meaning founded upon and
being found in, Christ, not even the dates and datings you may found scattered
throughout! “Hezekiah did that which was right in the sight of the LORD ... He
in ... the first month, opened the doors of the house of the LORD.” (Resurrection) “He brought
in ... and gathered … in the east street.” (Resurrection) “And he said ... Hear me (the Word) sanctify
now yourself (Read Acts
2:22-24, “receive remission of sin in the Name of Jesus Christ.” Compare 2Chr29:6-7 with “Him ye have
taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain.” Cf verse 10 with Acts 2:39) “What shall
we do?”
“It is in
mine heart (‘pricked in
heart’) to make
covenant with the LORD God of
My heart is full! What can I say more? I remember now, “The song of the Lord
began”! “The Lord is my strength and song!”, both, Passover-Scriptures!,
2Chr29:27, Ex15:2. Forget not to say Ps118:14-24! That what on this occasion could happen,
could have happened on but the sixteenth day of the First Month, yet on any day
of the week; but, when that what happened here happened in and through Christ,
it all could have happened but on the sixteenth day of the First Month, but “on the
Seventh Day God THUS CONCERNING DID SPEAK” ‘in the SON-KING’, “in these last days”.
You said you couldn’t find a trace of the several Feast Days being all brought
to finality of significance on the Sabbath Day. I hope this instance will make
things clearer.
Nevertheless, if this one incidence of the mention of Nisan 16 could mean
nothing to you as with regard to the Feasts of the Israel of God and even less
to the Sabbath of the God of Israel, it should surely not be unreasonable if I
asked you how you could transfer all this ‘non-meaning’
of First Sheaf Wave Offering onto Nisan 17
as immeasurably great meaning? Onto Nisan
17— which is not only removed four days from Nisan 14 and first day
of the three days according to the Scriptures, but also, is not even once mentioned in the
Scriptures? Yet you make so much of Nisan
17 that it becomes basic for Sunday-observance?
Again I refer back, “... the days of
harvesting the grain (and the presentation of the "first-fruits" wave
sheaf) could not have started on 16 Nisan when that date fell on a regular
weekly Sabbath.”
Sabres
Let me quickly
point out a specific that totally unwarranted is generalised to the extinction
of the specific, which is the ‘wave sheaf’ as if being ordinarily a "first-fruits". I noticed that you said “the
"first-fruits" wave sheaf”; but it would be better if described just ‘First Sheaf’ – it had no commonality about it; the
First Sheaf was specific of the sixteenth day of the First Month! It belonged
to the date; not to a day of the
week— not until the Messiah had become its Fulfilment and the Finisher of the
Faith of First Sheaf Wave Offering before the LORD. Only then did it become a
specific of the Seventh Day Sabbath the day of the Finishing of “ALL the
works of GOD”.
Unavoidably I
must once more take another stance than yours. The Command to abstain from work
on the Sabbath of the Fourth Commandment should not be misunderstood as an
instruction for other sabbaths than the weekly. Even the weekly Sabbath which
has its own ‘special’ Commandment (the ‘Fourth Commandment’), is MUCH more
about God’s work than about man’s work – how much MORE should it be, not about
MAN’s work of abstention from work, but about GOD’S all-exceeding WORK OF REST
– Jesus Christ!
No ‘ceremonial
sabbath’ had as many works – works of prescriptions, ceremonies and sacrifices
– as the weekly Sabbath had! ‘Ordinary’ sacrifices and offerings were virtually
doubled for the Sabbaths of the Fourth Commandment. Wherefore should the
‘ceremonial sabbaths’ now be made days of less work and more rest than even the
weekly Sabbath? (Strange how we may oppose the legalists the while we slave
under our own legalism!)
Therefore,
when coinciding with seasonal sabbaths, the weekly Sabbath received all in one
of prescriptions, ceremonies and sacrifices, and became less a day of man’s
abstention from his own works, than the day of man’s works in God’s service!
Never have sacrifices and offerings of ceremony been prohibited on any ‘sabbath’, much less on the Sabbath
of the Fourth Commandment! It’s a figment of man’s imagination they have! God’s
Sabbaths were given for the worship of Him – not for man’s work of rest from
his own works merely or firstly. Calvin understood that the Sabbath meant man
should rest so that God may work in him. But the Sabbath was meant by God that
man should on it work in His service more than on all other days; and that man
should actually stand still and – through worship – should watch, how GOD,
WORKS, FOR, MAN. (Ex14:13-14)
Nisan 16 was
no ‘sabbath’; not even a ‘ceremonial sabbath’ or ‘holy convocation’. (As you
know.) And having occurred during the time of harvest, meant it was a day of
obligatory and inexcusable, work.
When falling on any day of the week than
the Sabbath, the First Sheaf was first reaped and offered, and the harvest
went on as normal on Nisan 16. When Nisan 16 coincided with the weekly Sabbath
the ‘First Sheaf’ was reaped nevertheless – the First Sheaf became simply
another although special ‘offering-before-the-LORD’ of the Sabbath Day. It not
only was not against any Law; it was strictly, according to, the Law!
So there is
absolutely nothing in your argument “... the days of harvesting the grain (and
the presentation of the "first-fruits" wave sheaf) could not have
started on 16 Nisan when that date fell on a regular weekly Sabbath.” This now is the – according to you –
one in seven year exception made the standard and rule. This now has come to
the fore as your main and only ‘argument’ for a Nisan 17 First Sheaf, and has
itself proven its fallacy.
The eight days
of Passover – one day of its Preparation and seven days of eating unleavened
bread – ended as instructed in the
Law on Nisan 21 – so Passover never could have an extra day inserted
in between any of these days. Also Pentecost always altogether constituted fifty
days precisely – never one day more.
Thursun
I basically agree with this general outline, except for when the
Lord was raised, and the burial of the Lord's body. However, as I've said
before, that is not primary to the "time frame" that I have been
attempting to expound of "threes" ("days and nights";
"in three days", "after three days", or whatever). But a
'Thursday' crucifixion is primary to this.
Sabres
‘This general outline of
when the Lord was raised, and the burial
of the Lord's body’, is vital for the chronology of the Passover at which
Christ was crucified and raised, because it had to happen “according to the Scriptures”— which in effect shall
mean, ‘according to the Passover-chronology of slaughter (Nisan 14), eat, and
return to the earth of the remains (Nisan 15), and First Sheaf Before the LORD
Wave Offering of the Passover Lamb of God (Nisan 16), “the third day according
to the Scriptures”. ‘That is absolutely primary to the "time frame"’.
I refer back – “... the days of
harvesting the grain (and the presentation of the "first-fruits" wave
sheaf) could not have started on 16 Nisan when
that date fell on a regular weekly Sabbath ...”
I have already explained this
(1) ‘Observe the month of Abib’;
(2) First Sheaf had to be “on the day after the (Passover)-Sabbath”
– which day ‘after’ you agree was Nisan 15;
(3) Sadducees’ ‘after the Sabbath-theory’
non existent in ‘Saddusaic’ sources;
(4) Nisan 21 (Ex12:18) being the last date
prescribed for the seventh day of UB-Eat and 8th day of the whole Passover, an ‘additional’
or 8th day of ULB-Eat and 9th day of Passover Season, is impossible.
(5) 50 days – not 51 days – had to be counted starting “on the day after the (Passover-)sabbath” – Nisan 16=day 1 of fifty;
(6) work in the service
of the Lord obligatory on all ‘sabbaths’.
(7) The date of the
fifteenth of the Second Month is given
(Ex16:1-3), so that 5 Sivan
had become the traditional date of Shavuot to this day!
Month……………………….Date…………..weeks…………days
Nisan…………………………16……………….…………….……….1
……………………….…………23………….……1……………………8
……………………….…………30……………….2………………….15
Zif…….……………………….…7……….……..3………………….22
………………………….………14…….…………4………………….29
……………………….…………21……….………5……….…………36
…………………….……………28……………….6…………….……43
Sivan………………………..…5…………….…7…………….……50
……………………………..Shavuot…………………….Pentecost
Given: Second
Month 15, Ex16:1-3. “Six days gather manna; Seventh Day is the Sabbath” –
Therefore 21st Zif is Sabbath (weekly). Count back, and Nisan 14 was on a Thursday;
Nisan 15 would be Friday, and Nisan 16 would be Sabbath. So would Sivan 5!
Wed
Messianic Jews believe mostly that Crucifixion took place on Wednesday,
because of the reasons different from what Sabres is claiming now.
Their belief is this:
If the Crucifixion occurred on Thursday ( Friday cannot be at all), there would
have been no time to purchase the perfumes at all.
Sabres
Who contends
‘perfumes were purchased’ on Thursday? – Not Sabres, I beg your pardon! Who
maintains a Thursday-resurrection would require ‘perfumes to be purchased’ on
Thursday? Not Sabres, I beg your pardon! Why would a Thursday-resurrection have
required ‘time’ to ‘purchase perfumes’? The
Crucifixion on Thursday does not require ‘time to purchase perfumes’ on that
day. In fact, the chronicles show its impossibility – as I have shown more than
once.
Wed
In
the evening of Thursday, the stores would have been closed already.
Sabres
Not at all. After the meal Judas went out to purchase things for
the Feast-Sabbath --- or so the disciples thought. They presupposed ‘the
stores’ open that time of night. See also other indications considered, books
1-1 and 1-2, e.g., Par.5.2.2.2 ... http://www.biblestudents.co.za.
Being the Passover-sabbath that followed the day of Crucifixion
meant only menial works and profit-making were forbidden, while specific works
of ‘worship’ and ‘service’, were obligatory. See the Exodus story as it
unfolded in history and later legislation.
Wed
On
Friday and Saturday, the stores were closed because they were Sabbaths. The
only chance is the Saturday Evening, for them to buy the perfumes, which may
not be unlikely.
Sabres
Thursday, crucifixion – no purchases being Nisan 14 “Preparation of the Passover”, “when they had to slaughter the Passover”; nobody then thought a burial a possibility.
Friday, Nisan 15 since Thursday after sunset: Interment. Purchases for holy ‘service’ were
mandatory, so that, One, Joseph bought clean linen, and Nicodemus “brought
there, about hundred pounds of myrrh”, and, Two, so that after the grave was
closed, “the women went home, and prepared (not ‘bought’) spices” they at that
hour “in time before the Sabbath would begin”, already have had or had obtained,
with the view of coming back to the grave to embalm the body in the grave after
the Sabbath.
Saturday evening, “when the Sabbath had gone through” (Mk16:1),
Salome joined the Marys, so that they went “to buy spices” for her also to
salve the body in the grave ‘according as the custom of the Jews to bury was’. That
– “the
Saturday Evening” – is what I have been saying all these years,
Mk16:1, that it was the only, ‘likely’; in fact, that it was the only stated case of ‘perfumes’ having been “bought”!
Can’t you see there is a difference between perfumes ‘prepared’ and perfumes ‘bought’?
Can’t you see two women
‘prepared’, three women ‘bought’?
Can’t you see two women prepared on the “afternoon” of “the Fore-Sabbath”,
three women bought “when the Sabbath was
over”?
Can’t you see two women having returned, prepared,
three women having bought, might anoint?
Can’t you see two women started
to rest the Sabbath, three women after the Sabbath, bought that they might go?
The only day on which spices and ointments could not be bought, was on the weekly Sabbath, and we see the care
taken before and after the Sabbath not to buy or prepare spices, on
it. “The women rested the Sabbath as the
Law says.” Lk23:54-56
The totality
of your arguments against Crucifixion on Thursday and Resurrection on Sabbath
amounted to less than nothing. They were self-destructive
Wed
You
must be misunderstanding.
Abib 14- Thursday - Jesus died around 15:30
Abib 14- Thursday - Jesus was buried before 18:00
Abib 15- Thursday Evening - Abib 15 started after
18:30 Thursday - Passover Sabbath ( High Sabbath) has come.
Abib 15- Friday Morning and Daytime - Passover Sabbath
Abib 16- from Friday Evening thru Saturday morning and daytime until 18:30 -
Regular Sabbath
Abib 17- Evening after Saturday 18:30 - Firstday of the Week, Day of
Firstfruits, Perfumes may have been prepared.
Abib 17- Morning time of Sunday, Abib 17.
the High Priest was waving the firstfruits, Jesus the True Firstfruit was waved
by God, from among the dead.
I prefer Abib to Nisan because Nisan was the Babylonian name of Abib.
Abib 8 ( John 12:1) must be Friday and the evening of Abib 8 was Sabbath.
Abib 9 Saturday Sabbath
Abib 10 Sunday
Abib 11 Monday
Abib 12 Tuesday
Abib 13 Wednesday
Abib 14 Thursday - Jesus was crucified in the morning ( 09:00)
Jesus died around 15:00-15:30
Joseph got the permission from Pilate 17:00
Jesus was buried before 18:00
Sabbath has come at 18:30 - Abib 15.
How could you find I was talking about 3 Sabbath days, other than Abib 15 and
16? Sabbath is Sabbath even if it is the
High Sabbath or Passover Sabbath and no one can sell or buy on that day.
Sabres
You maintain
Thursday was a Sabbath for the purchase of the spices and ointments – or was it
Wed? I’m sorry! Thursday a ‘sabbath’,
plus Friday a ‘sabbath’ – Jn19:31, plus Sabbath a ‘sabbath’ = three ‘sabbaths’
back to back.
But dear Wed,
Here is your statement, I quote you,
“Just for your
information, Messianic Jews believe
mostly that Crucifixion took place on Wednesday, because of the reasons
different from what Sabres is claiming now.
Their belief is this:
If the Crucifixion occurred on Thursday ( Friday cannot be at all), there would
have been no time to purchase the perfumes at all. ...”
You now have stated
belief in a Thursday Resurrection. Aren’t you ‘Messianic’? I have thought you are. My apologies if I was wrong!
Then I have to review my negations of your view, as follows,
First, We have to decide what you mean with ‘evening’.
I take
‘evening’ of a day, for its beginning,
that is, for the night just after sunset
until dark (no more reflected sunshine). I believe this is the Gospels’ meaning
with ‘opsias’ without exception. I
shall proceed understanding ‘evening’
for this first part of a day-cycle
from sunset to sunset.
Next, “Abib 14 -
Thursday - Jesus died around 15:30” --- Fine, only it says in so many words, “the ninth hour”, which
is, 3:00pm; to be exact.
“Abib 14 -
Thursday - Jesus was buried before 18:00”. --- That means, on the same day of Thursday and before sunset
and before the Sixth Day (Friday) had begun (with ‘evening’).
This is of
course one of the major points of difference between our respective
viewpoints. In objection against your
view, I present Mk15:42, Mt27:57, Lk23:48 and Jn19:31/38 (unspoilt!). In the light of the unequivocal testimony of
all four Gospels, Jesus was not taken off the cross ‘before sunset’, nor even
shortly “after evening had come”, but quite some time after. His body did “not remain all night”, but was removed from
the tree, “before sunrise”, and “that same day”, was buried. (See appended
study.) I have presented some arguments
in favour of my conclusion in this conversation, quite often.
The
implication of it is Jesus was buried on the day, after ‘Crucifixion
Day’ (Abib 14) – namely on ‘Interment Day’ (Abib 15), ‘Friday’. (The Greek Orthodox Church that follows the ‘quarto-decimen reckoning’ of ‘Easter’,
celebrate Crucifixion Day on Thursday, ‘Interment Day’ on Friday, and
‘Resurrection Day’ on Saturday if Abib 14 falls on a Thursday.) [And have you
noticed how many times that happens? Quite disproportionately more times on
Thursday than on any other day of the week!]
I have also in this conversation drawn attention to this facet of
Passover Feast.
Wed
“Abib 15-
Thursday Evening - Abib 15 started after 18:30 Thursday - Passover Sabbath (
High Sabbath) has come.
Abib 15 - Friday Morning and Daytime - Passover Sabbath
Abib 16 - from Friday Evening thru Saturday morning and daytime until 18:30 -
Regular Sabbath”.
Sabres
Maybe a minor
point, but why again “18:30” and
not exactly 6pm? Equinox in Springtime, sunset will mean for the Jew the 12th
hour, in our language, 6pm and the start of the new day. Otherwise I fully
agree on every word, here.
Wed
“Abib 17 -
Evening after Saturday 18:30 - Firstday of the Week, Day of Firstfruits,
Perfumes may have been prepared.
Abib 17 - Morning time of Sunday, Abib 17.
the High Priest was waving the firstfruits, Jesus the True Firstfruit was waved
by God, from among the dead.”
Sabres
Say we read
Lv23:10b-11, 15-16,
‘Ye shall reap the harvest ... then ye shall
bring a sheaf of first fruits of your harvest to the priest to be accepted (by
the LORD) for you: On the second day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave
it. ... And ye shall count unto you from the second day that ye brought the
sheaf of the wave offering; Seven (weeks of) Sabbaths shall be complete even
unto two days after the seventh sabbath; ye shall number fifty one days … and
ye shall bring ... two loaves ...’, would you be happy?
Would you be
happy if we read ‘Abib 17’ in
2Chron26, instead of “Abib 16”?
How do you
count to the count of “the third day” from Thursday with Thursday day one and
Abib 14? Will you not go on to count like this, Friday day two and Abib 15,
Saturday day three and Abib 16?
— even ‘Saturday the day after the
(Passover-)Sabbath day three and Abib 16’?
About “Perfumes may
have been prepared” I have
said enough. You don’t want to build your entire argument on the alleged
prohibition of sales on Nisan 15?
Wed
Dear Sabres,
Please don't misunderstand that I claimed Wednesday crucifixion which is
maintained by many Messianic Jews. I am not a Messianic Jew. I already
explained the most plausible schedule would have been:
Crucifixion on Abib 14, Thursday, in the morning around 09:00
Jesus died around 15:30 on Thursday, Abib 14, and was buried before 18:00 on
the same day, Thursday.
Then we will have 3 nights and 3 days but still the resurrection on the third
day, Sunday morning.
As for 18:30 for dividing the days, I have the following:
1. At ninth hour Jesus said Eli, Eli, Lama Sabachthani. This means that Jesus said so at 15:00.
Thereafter some people brought the vinegar (Mt 27:48)
Receiving the vinegar he said "It is finished (Tetelestai)" (John
19:30)
Jesus cried again in loud voice (Mt 27:50) which may be this "Father into
thy hands I commend my spirit" Luke 23:46 (cried with a loud voice).
In other words, after 15:00, Jesus said 3 Words - Eli Eli Lama Sabachtani,
Telelestai - Pater, Eis keiras sou parathesomai to pneuma mou, plus some people
said Let's see Elijah come and same him, others ran to fetch the vinegar and
Jesus received it and just tasted it (didn't drink), then spoke Tetelestai-
Pater, eis ..., gave up the spirit.
I don't think, those all took place in one
minute, nor in 3 minute, nor in 5 minutes, but reasonably, 15- 30
minutes, most likely almost in 30 minutes.
So, in my schedule Jesus died at around 15:30.
2. As for the evening time, Day of the Unleavened Bread is the 15th Abib, the
Full moon day, after the Spring Equinox.
If it was on the Spring Equinox, it could have been 18:00. However, Day of ULB was not the exact Spring
Equinox but a few days after it. It cannot be later than 30 days from the
Equinox, but as an average, as we experience the Day of Resurrection ( Easter)
these days, it could have been about 15 days from the Equinox. Everyday, the
day time is getting longer by 4 minutes after Equinox, and the evening is
delayed by 2 minutes, Sun rise gets earlier by 2 minutes. Therefore as an
average, it could be around 30 minutes later than 18:00, then we reach 18:30.
Depending on the latitude it might have been earlier than that like 18:15-18:30
The others are small issues, and you may imagine as you wish.
Sabres
Thank you very
much for this very interesting information. I have never thought of the times
so with insight, and I heartily accept everything you have explained so well! Unfortunately though, I deem this of less importance than ‘the others' -- which again to me matters more,
and surely is based on physical facts of history just as much as these finer
detail on the hours of event which you have given.
What is most intriguing to me is how you arrive – just like I do – on Saturday
"the third day according to the Scriptures", Nisan 16, yet ignore this demand of Scriptures, only because you attach so much weight to
commandments of men regarding the
'shalls' and 'shall nots' of buying and such stuff on a ceremonial sabbath -- in order to force your way past "the third day", onto
the Sunday, a fourth day?
Quoting Wed, “Joseph got permission from
Pilate 17:00” You leave one and
half hour for everything Joseph, Nicodemus and the two Marys did, before the
‘Passover-sabbath’ would have begun at 6:30 pm, ignoring the clear
statements found in Mk15:42, Mt27:57, Jn19:31/38, and Lk23:48/52 which you had
made the rule of, yourself, as indicators of the ending and beginning between
days.
With this your ending to Joseph’s
actions, you make the time of his rolling the stone into the closure to the
grave on Thursday, 6:30 pm, sunset, at the moment of the start of the Sixth Day
(Friday) – while it says literally “daylight having turned towards the Sabbath” (whichever ‘sabbath’ for argument’s
sake). The actual words leave much time
left before the ‘sabbath’ would start. You also with your very late time of
day leave the women no time after the burial to leave for home in order to “prepare spices” before the ensuing Passover-sabbath
would have started. So besides the literal linguistic and ‘religious’ problems
you must face (like when the day starts and ends and purchases on ceremonial
sabbaths), you also are confronted with all sorts of practical impossibilities. And all these ‘imaginations’ of yours, just because you insist
spices could not be bought on a ceremonial sabbath!?
You forget Nisan 15 was the day the Israelites “with all might”, had to leave out of
Now notice the semblance between
this earliest application of Dt23:21 long before it got written, with the life
by the blood represented, was put to the trees in the doors of the Israelites’
dwellings in cursed Egypt, and how they had not to stay in Egypt “all that night”, but before the light of morning, had to
leave cursed Egypt, to “in that same day, bury” the remains – exactly as the examples where we find this
Commandment applied elsewhere in Scripture, e.g., Joshua 9:29f and Dt21:23.
Also see the similarities in the
Passovers of Exodus and Joshua, chapter 5. After at least 40 years after the
first, the Passover was again observed, “And the children of
(from "the following day " on)
ate of the
fruit of
Thesis
“Until Friday
15:30 - the second day,
Until Saturday 15:30 - the third day,
Sunday morning - ca. 04:30 - Resurrection - 85 hours after death on the fourth
day.(Not on the third day)
Until Sunday 15:30 - the fourth day
In the Greek New Testament, sometimes it says τη
τριτη ημερα (the third day :
1Cor 15:4) too. Therefore the only way to satisfy both requirements - 3 days
and 3 nights but still on the third day - is to find 3 nights before the Sunday
morning, but should not be earlier than 72 hours.”
Antithesis
This now explains how you people came from Thursday to end up on
Sunday! It’s not new to me though; I
have answered this subtlety in ‘The Lord’s Day in the Covenant of Grace’, so
long ago, I scarcely recognised it in this conversation.
You count three day-light parts, Thursday-day, Friday-day,
Saturday-day; Then you count three night-parts – Thursday-night, Friday-night,
Saturday-night! Heh! “Three days and three nights” Mt12:40!
Hold it! It destroys all
the other declarations of the Scriptures about “THE, THIRD, DAY”.
You got 6 ‘day-parts’, but not three, proper, whole, ‘day-units’! You butchered four proper
days into eight parts and again botched up six parts for your hideaway from
truth. The “three days and three nights” of
Matthew and Jonah, were three complete
days in total. It means the first principle of the Bible-reckoning of a day
is obeyed, in that any part of a day
represents that whole day, while
also the very words, “three days and three nights” or
“the third day”. Every of the “three days” of these Scriptures is constituted of and is represented
by a night-part and its very own, day-part.
How many times have you simply evaded the fact you all claimed,
that ‘a day’ begins with its evening? each time you have smuggled in and
paraded your imposing gloss (or rather fraud) of four— no, five days’ leftovers!
as ‘the’ “three days and three nights” of the Word of God! With this trick you
tried to strip God’s Sabbath Day of its robe-of-honour to drape over your idol
Sunday!
Thursday began with Wednesday-night; Friday with Thursday-night,
and Saturday, “the third day”, with Friday-night. And Saturday which was the
Seventh Day Sabbath, ended literally – “with/in
(its) after-noon”: ‘sabbahtohn--epiphohskousehi’,
Mt28:1. (The “light” ‘belonged’ – Genitive, to the Sabbath –
not to the First Day!) There is no other way “three days and three nights” can be found within and of the only ‘three days’ Christ said that He would
have been “in the heart of the earth”. Retrospectively Christ “In three days rebuilt this
Quoting Thursun, “...Day of First Fruits are always the First
day of the Week. ( Lev 23:11-12), it was the next day after the Sabbath” (Emphasis Sabres)
Lv23:11, 15-16, “Ye shall bring a sheaf ... the priest shall wave the
sheaf ... on the day after the
sabbath. ... Ye shall count from
the day after the Sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf. ...
Even unto the day after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days.” Even one word more will be superfluous.
“The fifteenth day shall be an
holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. Seven days ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the
LORD: On the eighth day shall
be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by fire
unto the Lord – a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink
offerings : Every thing upon its day!
... besides the Sabbaths of the LORD, and besides your gifts, and besides all
your vows, and besides all your
freewill offerings, which ye,
give unto the LORD.” Lv23:34-38
Thesis
The Lamb of God was slain on Thursday, 14 Nisan. ... 'Thursday'
(14 Nisan), from sunrise to sundown represents the first of “three days”;
'Friday' (15 Nisan, the "high day", Feast day Sabbath from sundown to
sunrise is the first of three nights, and so on, through Sunday from sundown to
sunrise completing the "three nights", which order happens to be
exactly deliberately reversed from the normal Jewish way of reckoning time.”
Antithesis
Quoting, “ ... the "three nights", which order happens to
be exactly deliberately reversed from the normal Jewish way of reckoning time.” Not if considered retrospectively— Christ
spoke as Triumphator, not as would-be triumphator. To ‘deliberately reverse the normal way of reckoning time from sundown to
sunrise to complete the ‘three nights’’, is nothing than your unwarranted
attempt to force together what the Word unconditionally separated. If you force
together this side, you should force together three times to the rear, and in
the process must upset and destroy all God-given and God-ordained order and
meaning. In the end you must sit up with the leftover-parts of five days!
Abhorrent idea!
‘Deliberately reversed’? After the above Scriptures I
have presented? After all the Passover-Season ‘days’, had been reckoned ‘the normal
Jewish way of reckoning time’, i.e.,
the mandatory ‘way’ of the Bible, of reckoning days from sunset to sunset?
After the only other ‘way’ of reckoning of days found in the Scriptures – in
Exodus – which would have forced you to date the Day of First Fruits on Nisan
15 and not on Nisan 17? After not one exception in all of the New Testament
especially, exists that allows another reckoning of days, than from sunset to sunset? You come, and arbitrarily decide, “which order ...
to be exactly deliberately reversed”? How serious are you in your
Bible study? How conclusive do you accept the authority of God’s Word? How
predisposed and prejudiced can you be? Only to win your argument?!
Your statement by exact unavoidable reversed from the normal, is your
unequivocal acknowledgement of and concession to the ‘normal (Jewish)
way’ of the Bible of reckoning the day-cycle and ‘days’ per se from sunset to sunset, but despite, you assume the right to ‘deliberately
reverse’ the order? Thank you for displaying both your audacity and
defeat so unequivocally! Pride comes
before the fall.
'The Fifth Day' – ‘Thursday’ (14 Nisan), from sunset
and night, to until sundown again, ‘represents’ the
first of ‘the three days’; not, ‘'Thursday' (14 Nisan), from sunrise to sundown’!
Exactly so, 'The Sixth Day' – ‘Friday’ (15 Nisan), from sunset and
night, to until sundown again, ‘represents’ the second of ‘the three days’,
not, 'Friday' (15 Nisan), ‘from sunrise to sundown’! A ‘Nisan 15’ –or any other day or date for
that matter– ‘from sunrise to sundown’
never existed in the Bible.
Exactly so, 'The Sabbath Day' – ‘Saturday’ (16 Nisan), from sunset and
night, to until sundown again, was in
fact “the third day” of
‘the three days’, “according to the Scriptures”;
not, 'Saturday' (16 Nisan) ‘from sunrise to sundown’! A ‘Nisan 16’ and even less a ‘Nisan 17’ –or
any other day or date for that matter– ‘from sunrise to sundown’ except
in Exodus never existed in the Bible.
From sunset to sundown ‘Saturday’ – Nisan 16 – completed “the third day” of ‘the three days’, “according to the Scriptures” SO
THAT the night-part of the Fifth Day (Thursday) the first of the “three days”,
completed the "three nights" of Mt12:40, which order happens to be
exactly the normal Jewish way of reckoning time, but seen retrospectively –
that is – from the perspective of the Risen
Christ that “so shall have been in the heart
of the earth, three days and three nights”. Every essential of the principle of
interpretation and understanding the Scriptures’ ‘way to reckon days’, is respected and obeyed, and the Law of God
(not men’s) magnified through “the Glory of
God in the face of Jesus”. We need never to belittle in whichever way God’s
Law; which is immutable because in Christ and through Christ it has been made
fast and true. Only men in a spot challenge God’s Law, because “the Law is for the transgressors”.
The fault must be blamed on the Law of God because I, am my law unto myself. My
hate to be under law from its nature must be projected upon something; and that
something cannot be me; so we pile it upon the Law of God – or rather, upon His
Sabbath Day, because we have fooled ourselves concerning our status with regard
to all the other Laws of God ... Men can see the outside only; and I am one of
those men who can see the outside only, and am, oh, so content with myself-my-law,
blinding all spiritual sight my face shines like a saint’s.
Thesis
“... there is specific significance (actually about three of them) to
Matt. 28:1, where the Holy Spirit inspired Matthew to pen the words,
Ὀψὲ δὲ σαββάτων, τῇ ἐπιφωσκούσῃ εἰς
μίαν σαββάτων,
ἦλθεν Μαριὰμ ἡ
Μαγδαληνὴ καὶ ἡ ἄλλη
Μαρία θεωρῆσαι
τὸν τάφον. (Matt. 28:1 -
Tsch. Gk NT, my underlining) - After the Sabbaths, towards the dawn of the day
following the Sabbaths, Mary, the Magdalene, and the other Mary, came to
examine the tomb. (Matt. 28:1 - HBME)
(1) ... the use of the plural form "σαββάτων",
two times, in the verse. Translators such as Green, Fenton, Marshall, and Young
get the import, here, and get it right as "the end (conclusion) of the
Sabbaths", (a 'literal' sense, here, in the first instance) as there were
more than one involved. The second use, later in the verse, is also a normal
rendering of "σαββάτων" as
"week". Both of these uses are attested to by J. H. Thayer and Alan
Wigram, in their lexicons.”
Antithesis
Even if accepted, what ‘HBME’ (whatever it is), and ‘J.H. Thayer and
Alan Wigram’ concluded, changes
nothing to the fact the time of the event on the day concerned, was still, “"the end (conclusion) of the
Sabbaths", (a 'literal' sense, here, in the first instance) as there were
more than one involved”. (Emphasis
CGE) The meaning still, is not, ‘after the sabbaths’ as
Sunday-resurrection protagonists allege. There were two consecutive ‘sabbaths’
– the Passover’s and the week’s, and whether the ‘end-part’ meant, was that of
both or of only one of these ‘sabbaths’, “it-was-the-inclining-light-OF-THE-SABBATHS”, that “shon / lighted”, “towards
the First of the Sabbaths” (Sunday the
impending and still future day). It helps a Sunday-resurrection idea nothing.
In fact, these references confirm a ‘Sabbath’s-event’ “towards the dawn
of the day following the
Sabbaths”!
So ‘HBME’ as clearly as daylight contradicts itself with
saying “...After the Sabbaths, towards the first week’s (day,
Sunday) ...”. I have seen scholars who
do not even notice what nonsense they argue, who maintain the ‘second’
‘sabbahtohn’, while it came ‘after the
Sabbaths’, was “the first of the
Sabbaths”!
But the learned men you
refer to are simply wrong; ‘sabbaths’ in the first phrase – being in the
Genitive – means “In / on / of the (weekly) Sabbath” or “In / on / of the Sabbath
of the week”, just
like ‘sabbaths’ in the
second phrase, being in the Accusative, by ellipsis implies, “against the First
(Day) of the week. — Which (in their
words), is, “a normal rendering of
"σαββάτων" as
"week".” (After how many times I have said I was not
going to enter into a conversation on this subject! See repeatedly treated on in ‘LD’.)
A far more accurate
rendering therefore certainly will be, “In
the end of the Sabbath, towards the dawn of the first day of the week as Mary the Magdalene and the other Mary,
left to go see the tomb …”.
“Towards the dawn” should not be misunderstood for ‘before sunrise’, but for ‘the last
end-part’, “towards” (‘eis’),
when the approaching day, The First Day of the week, ‘began to become apparent’ (Oxford Collins) “by the declining turn
of the light / sun” – literal of ‘epiphohskousehi’. As the gentlemen
referred to above, aptly state, “towards the dawn of the day following the Sabbaths”! It couldn’t have been said better!
Thesis
The phrase "on the Sabbath" in the NKJV. Not one time
does this phrase occur tied in, in any way, to the words or idea of
"resurrection", that I can find.
Antithesis
You found correctly as “to the words”;
but how could you find that the “The phrase "on the Sabbath"”,
does not “in any way (tie in) to the ... idea of
"resurrection"”? The whole
context of Mt28:1 concerns the Resurrection of Christ! In all of the New
Testament Mt28:1 is the only text that gives any information on the day, its
time, the where and the how of Jesus’ resurrection! And you say, “The phrase
"on the Sabbath" ... (n)ot one time ... occur tied in, in any way, to
the words or idea of "resurrection"”? You could not have
looked far; you should have encountered such an ‘occurrence’ first in
Mt28:1!
Were you able to find that the phrase "towards the First Day
of the week”, ‘ties in’ to either the word or idea of ‘resurrection’? No, you
could not because the word, ‘resurrection’ is not used in Mt28:1. So what gave
you the idea the phrase "towards the First Day of the week”, would tie in to the
word of ‘resurrection’? Just prejudice. But prejudice coupled with
disregard for every factor of grammar and syntax applied in the context. For,
for the phrase "towards the First Day of the week” to ‘tie in to the idea
of the Resurrection’ and for the phrase “On the Sabbath” not to ‘tie in to the
idea of the Resurrection’, every grammatical and syntactical aspect of ‘words’,
‘phrases’, and ‘idea’, MUST be corrupted, and in fact, must exactly deliberately be reversed from the
normal Greek way of grammar and
syntax.
And that was exactly what Justin Martyr did, and why he found it
inevitable to change these factors about and to present a totally garbled
version of the Greek in Mt28:1, in order to sustain his ‘idea of the
resurrection’, “after the Sabbath” and “on the Day of the Sun” – things the
learned referred to by you, have thought better not to reveal in the smallest
of detail.
Thursun
With all respect, it takes a tremendous amount of gyrations and
gymnastics, to arrive at a "Saturday" or "Sabbath"
resurrection, in any way. I simply don't have the time to get into this in
detail now, but will add that I've already covered this in my previous posts,
on this thread, as has basically Eliyahu. Our positions are a lot less 'painful' to arrive at, frankly.
Mostly, because we are not attempting to read anywhere near as much "into"
the texts, IMO.
FTR, "J. H. Thayer and Alan Wigram" are the authors of
the two Greek lexicons that I possess, and have had since
I agree that the 'BAGD' (at 150 clams in 'hard cop, and which I ain't
a-spendin') is probably at "the top o' the heap", as to Greek
Lexicons, with Thayer's, Wigram's, and Strong's following, in roughly that
order, although some might reverse the order of the last two.
I do not either know, or still remember, what is the other acronym of
"HBME" to which you referred, and I apparently cited. So why don't you accept this one, ...
Sabres
Because you
have said nothing as to argument; nothing! I am no one to grade books to
quality, especially not books like you have mentioned, because they equally are
the fruit not only of the authors themselves, but of the denominational
traditions and worldviews of their times. Not even in these ‘analytical’ works
is it possible to find total objectivity and pure scientific method. Walter
Bauer, e.g., speaks of “our literature” re Mt28:1 as if in contrast with
‘secular’ literature. What can you expect? Just normal human and conditioned
subjectivity! But as you can see from the sources you have quoted, these men
honestly believe they are right so much, that they are blinded to the implications
of their honesty. These writers of thesauruses etc. did not busy themselves
with exegetical issues – what theological! They worked with grammatical and
linguistic issues which they unawares but inevitably influenced by their own
worldviews, have tried to explain. There is no better example of their dilemma
than the issue of the Christian Sabbath. You do face the same dilemma, believe
me; I had to! (Karl Barth said, it is a lazy person who uses as excuse that he
is not a theologian. Everybody is a theologian – every serious Christian, and
need not retreat before the most famous of theologians. I have seen many
although loaded with degrees and medals not worth the smell of theologian.)
Thursun
So
why don't you accept this one, ... as opposed to attempting to explain how it
was on the (regular weekly) sabbath, yet after the (high-day) Sabbath,
therefore being on the Sabbath but "not on the sabbath,"
simultaneously ...
Sabres
If I understand you correctly now, this is what I have more than
once told you I agree on with you. I accept (and do not oppose or attempt to
explain away), how ‘it simultaneously was’ on the (regular weekly)
Sabbath, yet after the ‘High-Day-sabbath’,
therefore being “on the (regular weekly) Sabbath” and, not on ‘High-Day-sabbath’,
as the Scriptures say, “ON THE DAY AFTER THE SABBATH (OF PASSOVER)”. But now
you maintain it was on the second
day after the Passover-Sabbath— on Nisan 17 instead of on Nisan 16. And the
real issue here is not, whether “it was on the (regular weekly) sabbath,
yet after the (high-day) Sabbath, therefore being on the Sabbath but "not
on the sabbath," simultaneously”, or not. Don’t evade the true
point of conflict, which is, that Jesus
rose “On the Sabbath” the ‘Sabbath’ after the Friday (which Friday
you yourself say was the Passover-sabbath of Nisan 15) or not.
Thursun
There is no additional qualifier between "after" and
"the Sabbath", that I can see in the text. So am I missing what is
actually "found in the text", or merely what you are attempting to
"read into the text"?
Sabres
I don’t understand what you mean with, “There is no
additional qualifier between "after" and "the Sabbath"”.
But I’ll say there is in fact absolutely no qualifier, ‘additional’ or original,
that requires or allows ‘AFTER the Sabbath’ in either the first or second
‘phrase’. In the first phrase, “In the Sabbath”, there is the qualifier to the
effect of ‘IN’, in the Genitive
of time and sort of the Noun, “Sabbath’s-time”-‘sabbahtohn’.
This ‘qualifier at the same time is an
absolute disqualifier for the
concept, ‘AFTER the Sabbath’ by whatever ‘tremendous
amount of gyrations and gymnastics’. I could go on and on – rather read the
many arguments in ‘LD’. As far as the second ‘phrase’ is concerned, the
Accusative (to again name but one example of many factors) demands “BEFORE the
First Day” – it can NOT EVER, be, ‘on’, or, ‘in’, or, ‘of’!
Thursun
Once again, I refer to the fact (as opposed to the theory) that
neither "first fruits" nor "Pentecost" are listed with
specific days of a month, unlike every other 'feast day" in the texts.
Sabres
Absolute nonsense! After all we have gone over!
Thursun
Neither "first fruits" nor "Pentecost" are
listed with specific days of a month, Why
not?? Answer, because Biblically, they can and do 'move' 'forward', by one (and
only one) day, an (overall) average of one year out of every seven, depending
on what day of the week 15 Nisan/Abib falls. This only happens when 15 Nisan
falls on the sixth day of the week, which would be expected to be an average of
one year out of seven. The insertions of the 'calendar correcting month' of 2nd
Adar, can and does change this interval, causing it to occur sooner, in some
cases, and further apart in others. Still, overall, it occurs one time every seven
years.
Sabres
For
which surmising, you have ZERO, Scripture! Speculations like yours, there are
several other, ‘THEORIES’ of.
Fact
is, Equinox was accurately determined astrometrically, thereafter the first New
Moon was accurately determined astrometrically – no ‘sightings’-stuff – and the
day of that New Moon, that day was, Abib 1. It did not matter ever WHERE the
previous year ENDED. If a period was ‘vacant’ in between the last 12 months 30
days per month year, then a part-month of any number of days was ‘added’ in
between the end of the old year and the first day on the month Abib as
determined accurately astrometrically. As you have observed, this could have
been done every few years, so that more or less one lunar month could be
inserted— just like you have said – I have no issue with it! What I have
serious objection to is that these ‘possibilities’ could have influenced the
determination of First Sheaf Wave Offering?
It could not in the least! For
throughout in the meantime the week-cycle just went on uninterruptedly – and
that, is what caused (and still causes) the definitely FIXED dates of the
MONTH, to float through the days of the WEEKS. It is impossible to say every
which year the same co-incidence of Date of Month would recur on the same day
of week.
Thesis
(A)
“...the "high Sabbath" of the first day of the feast of
Unleavened Bread, have a particular significance, unlike the regular weekly
Sabbath, known to all. Scriptures that specifically
testify to this are Matt. 26:1-5; Mk. 14:1-2; and Jn. 19:31. Matt.
26:1-5 also, with Jesus' use of the phrase "after two days is the
Feast..." is consistent with the Jewish "inclusive" reckoning of
time, as well. The day on which he was speaking, the following day (starting at
sundown) which would have been 14 Nisan, and when the Passover was celebrated
"between the evenings", which meaning never showed the import of
those words, until the partaking of the passover Seder by Jesus and the
disciples and His crucifixion which followed about 9:00, the next AM. (still on
14 Nisan) and the "Feast" of 15 Nisan.”
Antithesis
(A)
“... the "high Sabbath" of the first day of the feast of Unleavened Bread, ... Scriptures
that specifically testify to this are Matt. 26:1-5; Mk. 14:1-2 ...
The "High Day" of the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread ... Scriptures
that imply this, are, i.a., Mk.
14:1-2. “Matt. 26:1-5”, does
not apply.
Counted according to Mark 14:1, – “after two day was the Feast
of the Passover”: Jesus
spoke these words on Wednesday, Nisan
13.
“The day on which Jesus was speaking ... ‘after two days is the Feast’, the following day starting at sundown with
the Lord’s Supper (Not, with the partaking of the Passover Seder), would have been 14 Nisan (Thursday)
until ...
the Passover sacrifice would be killed “in
the afternoon” “between the two
nights” (literal for the Dual ‘behn-ha-arbahim’).
The second day
following
(Nisan 15, Friday) starting at sundown and the night-half of the Passover
Seder’s partaking by the Jews (Thursday-night), the "high
Sabbath" of the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread (Nisan
15, Friday) would have been until ... Joseph had closed the
sepulchre, and up to before, “the women
had begun to rest the Sabbath”.
Note,
“... the partaking of the Passover Seder by Jesus and the disciples and
His crucifixion which followed ...” The Passover Seder followed after the
Crucifixion. What came before the Crucifixion, was the Lord’s Supper.
Note,
“... the Passover Seder by Jesus and the disciples and His
crucifixion which followed about 9:00, the next AM. (still on 14 Nisan)” The Seder was eaten “in the evening”, on Nisan 15,
night-its-first-part. Seder was not, “still on 14 Nisan”.
Seder of the Passover was the sacrifice eaten
– it could not be eaten before slaughtered; so must follow after, Nisan 14, on
Nisan 15 beginning “in the evening”.
Thesis
(B)
and the disciples and His crucifixion which followed about 9:00,
the next AM. (still on 14 Nisan) and the "Feast" of 15 Nisan.”
“... the "high Sabbath" of the first day of the feast of Unleavened Bread, ... Scriptures
that specifically testify to this are Matt. 26:1-5; Mk. 14:1-2 ...
Antithesis
(B)
Counted according to Mt26:2, – “after two days was the Pascha - slaughtered ” (Mk14:12): Jesus spoke these words on Tuesday. He spoke of the ‘pascha’ – “the day they killed the passover on” –
not, the day on which they ate the
Passover.
The day on which Jesus used the phrase, "after two days is the Passover", the day following would have been the
day on which He spoke Mk14:1, “after two
day was the Feast of, the
Passover”. He would have been speaking two days “before the Feast”
(Jn13:1), called, “Preparation of Passover”
(Jn19:14), which would have been 14 Nisan, “when
always they killed the Passover” (Mk14:12), “When they were obliged to kill the Passover”
(Lk22:7). This day, Mark, Matthew and Luke, describe as ‘heh hehmera tohn a-dzymohn’ –‘day
without leaven / leaven removed’. No ‘bread’ yet! Only the unleavened dough
was ‘prepared’ on Nisan 14; the bread was baked while the lamb was roasted, no
longer ‘between the evenings’ but after sunset, in the evening, “on the
"Feast" of
15 Nisan”. (Another ‘work’ of the Feast-Sabbath.)
Thesis
“"In the
very light of its being", as referring to "the Sabbath" is
merely a "theological construct" "from the get-go". There
is no such wording even remotely close to this, anywhere in Scripture, to my
knowledge.”
Antithesis
‘No such wording’? ‘anywhere in Scripture’?
Lk24:54, “And that day was / has been the Preparation”, “which is
the Fore-Sabbath” (Mk15:42) “light=fohs
tending towards=epi Sabbath=sabbaton”
(Akk);
‘eti faous ountas’ –
while there was still daylight;
‘pannucha kai faethontai’
– whole nights and days;
‘heh epifasis’ – ‘appearance high in the field of vision’ (Lampe);
‘epilampoh’ – ‘to shine after or upon’ (Classic);
Job 31:24-25, ‘hehlion ton epifauskonta X ekleiponta’ – ‘the sun
shines; the moon fades’;
Job 25:4-6, ‘selehnei ouk epifauskei’ – ‘the stars are not
bright’;
Job 41:9, ‘At the serpent’s sneezing a light hurtles down’,
‘epifausketai fengos’;
Cf. its OPPOSITE, ‘UP-coming light’, ‘Diafohskoh;
‘The brightness of His coming’, ‘epifaneia’, 2Th2:8;
‘Neither sun nor stars in many days appeared (in heaven above)’,
Acts 27:20;
‘The appearing of our Lord who inhabits light unapproachable’ –
‘epi-fain-oh’;
OPPOSITE: ‘Tehi epi-ous-ehi NUKTI’ (Acts 23:11) X ‘tehi
epifohskousehi sabbahtohn’ – ‘the very same night’ X ‘the very same Sabbath’;
1Sm13:21 ‘in the end of the year’ – ‘en tehi epionthi etehi;
“Everything manifest is light; That’s why He says, Awake thou that
sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall shine upon – ‘epifausehi’
– you. Eph5:14”;
Etc.etc.etc. “...merely a
"theological construct" ... no such wording even remotely close”? To THIS: “epi”=acme of “Fohs”=light / day OF the
Sabbath’S=“Fohs” it BEING=“ontas” IN=“ousehi” (Dat) – “no such wording
even remotely close”? You give me nearer words, more literal, more intentional the
meaning of the author?
Thesis
“I will defend
the KJV, just as I will defend the NKJV, or another 'legitimate' (as opposed to
one 'contrived' IMO, such as the NWT, e.g.) version - no more; no less. ... Not
one of them deserves their motives to be judged post-humously, in absentia,
and absent any evidence.
Antithesis
All you say is
reasonably acceptable and to a large
extent also reflects my own viewpoints. I have a problem though with you saying, “Not one of them
deserves their motives to be judged post-humously, in absentia, and
absent any evidence.” Does
this now mean obvious differences must be overlooked? Does it mean no
‘translation’ has got mistakes in it? Does it mean one has no right to show
mistakes or doubtful renderings? Does it mean the reader must either be blind
for differences / and or errors, or keep himself too dumb to notice any and too
timid to point them out?
Do you mean
the translators truly experienced no preconceptions? If so, were they truly
human? How could they close them off from their own world? Just like “Tyndale drew on
his knowledge of the Vulgate and Wycliffe”, just so “the late John Rainolds” drew on the trends and opinions of his day, and it must be a
blind man who cannot recognise the necessary differences the GREEK SHOULD show,
to accommodate his and Tyndale’s renderings.
Now is it not
truly remarkable that – as far as I know and I do not know everything of course
– isn’t it truly remarkable THERE ARE NO ‘VARIANTS’ on the whole of Mt28:1 as
well as of Mk15:42. The nearest to a variant of Mark 15:42, is Mt27:57! The changes made to these two – and other –
‘Sabbath-implying’ texts in translations CANNOT have happened unpremeditatedly,
accidentally, or, UNPRETENTIOUSLY! It certainly is no case of ‘motives judged
in absence of any evidence’.
The ‘evidence’ is found IN these instances, each time! I will never be able to “defend the KJV,
just as I will defend the NKJV” – they are just not in the same class!
Thursun
Somehow, you are managing to find a number of
"'Sabbath-implying' texts" all throughout Scripture, even when such
are not stated in the text(s) to which you sometimes refer. Are we to surmise
that everyone has gotten it wrong, for 2000-3500 years, until you, and a small
handful of others have "re-discovered" this hidden truth, somehow? ...
Sabres
Good point, and the answer is just as easy and good as the question! From when
is the Bible available to everyone? Not from centuries ago; only from very
recently – The Bible became available in Afrikaans as late as 1933! But from
when do all these newer 'versions' date? Only from the Nida-Commission started
the tsunami! Then here's the crux! THEY,
this new generation of critics of Holy Scriptures, discovered it --- not I ---
and THEY, this day, show it to you! They do it like they did it to or for me
(and others) rather. They did it with their OBVIOUS OBFUSCATING of the
implications of the Sabbath-resurrection. And it is even possible to show how
as time went on, the one after the other implication, was discovered, so that the
later / newer the version, the more of these Sabbath-Resurrection-implicating
statements of Scripture, were ‘translated out’.
This whole
process of discovering the matter in hand, started while I, in the Church, sat
reading from the Bible two 'versions' and the differences we are talking about,
showed themselves to me while I had NO knowledge of the Greek, or, had the
faintest idea other than about a ‘Friday Crucifixion, Sunday Resurrection’ like
all the rest of us still have.
Taken Down Before Sunset, or, Before
An unknown author quotes
<< Deut.16:6 – “But at the place which Yahweh thy Elohim
<< shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice
<< the passover at even ["ba ereb"],
<< at the going down of the sun,
<< at the season that thou camest forth out of
He
asks,
<< What does the phrase "going down of the sun" mean?
And
answers,
<< The same Hebrew construction is found in Josh.8:29 –
<<… "And the king of Ai he hanged on a tree until eventide [ereb]:
<< as soon as the sun was down ,
<< Joshua commanded that they should take his carcase down
<< from the tree, and cast it at the entering of the gate of the city,
<< and raise thereon a great heap of stones…>>
The author
also quotes,
<< Josh.10:26,27
, "... and they were hanging upon the trees
<< until
the evening [ereb]. And it came to pass
<< at the
time of the going down of the sun,
<< that
Joshua commanded, and they took them down off the trees,
<< and
cast them into the cave wherein they had been hid,
<< and
laid great stones in the cave's mouth…>>
He then
claims,
<< The underlined words in both verses
<< are the equivalent Hebrew of
<< "at the going down" in Deut.16:6.
<< Notice one verse says the sun was already down
<< and the other verse says it was going down.
<< To understand what the status of the sun really was,
<< we must look at the commandment that led Joshua to order
<< the king's body taken down. It is found in Deut.21:22,23…
<< Deut.21:22,23 - "And if a man committed a sin worthy of death,
<< and he be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
<< His body shall not remain all night upon the tree,
<< but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day ;
<< (for he that is hanged is accursed of Elohim;)…>>
The author then asserts,
<<… Joshua was obeying Yahweh's commandment … -
<< The body had to be buried the same day it was hung on the tree.
<< That means it had to be buried before sunset.
We wish to differ on strength
of several grounds.
First we must stress the
fact we agree with the unknown author on the Nisan 14 (end of day) slaughter of
the Passover lamb, and its eating in the night of Nisan 15. But this very
Passover-arrangement is in contradiction with his ideas on the meaning of the
Deuteronomy instruction as well as with both the Joshua passages.
Deut.21:22,23 - "... if a man be put to death ... and thou
hang him on a tree, His body shall not remain all night upon the tree,
but thou shalt in any wise bury him that
day” – meaning he must be buried the current day that had begun
with “night” - during which the body had been hanging on the
tree. It implies the body had to be removed from the tree before
sunrise with the view to its interment during the following daylight!
Thus Joseph of Arimathea
removed Jesus’ body from the tree far into night and very probably only before
sunrise. “Thou shalt in any wise bury him that day”
– which exactly Joseph did: during daylight of “that day”,
after the day on which Jesus had been crucified.
<Shemesh> in Josh.8:29 is translated “sun” in the KJV, and per
se means the rising of the sun - Gn.19:23, Josh.12:1 and many
other places. (It is also used for other times of sunlight, e.g.
Josh.10:12.)
The words supplied
in Josh.8:29, “and as soon as
… was down” - because the
opposite of <ereb> - should be: “and
as soon as the sun began
to rise” <shemesh>.
And the words supplied in 10:27, “going
down”, should be, “at the time of the dawning
/ rising of the sun”
<shemesh>.
See the close nexus
between “east” – mizrach, and “morning” – shemesh, in the
combination “early dawning” – mizrach shemesh. Compare the s-h-a-
in shachar, “morning” / “dawn”, and in shakam, “to awake” /
“rise”, with the s-h-e- in shemesh, “sunrise”. Then also
compare the m-i-s-h- in mishchar, “morning”, and in mishap
– “dawning of day”, with the –m-e-s-h in shemesh, “sunrise”. Now
put the two together, and it becomes s-h-a + m-e-s-h, then becomes she-mesh.
Then just to confirm this type of combination, see Dn.6:19, shepharpara,
“very early in the morning”. Eth eber and shemesh it is clear,
are the opposites of day-time and night-time, respectively “afternoon” /
“towards sunset”, and, ‘afternight’ / “towards sunrise”!
Therefore in the case of Joshua
10:26,27, instead of to
translate, "... and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening
[ereb]”, rather translate, "... and they hanged them upon the trees while
the sun was setting [ereb]. And it came to pass that at the time of the rising
of the sun <shemesh>, Joshua commanded, and they took
them down off the trees.” <Eth ereb> indicates the time of day of the
hanging; <shemesh> the time of night of Jushua’s commanding.
We are compelled to
conclude, that the phrases in the two texts, namely, “as soon as the
sun was rising” <shemesh>, and, “at the time of
the rising of the sun”
<shemesh>, are NO equivalent Hebrew of "at the going down"
<eth ereb / ereb> in Deut.16:6, where it is the rendering of the word bo,
and, meaningfully, is used in conjunction with the statement, “at the sea” –
which is to the west of the land and just the opposite of shemesh,
“sunrise” in the east!
Joshua was obeying
Yahweh's commandment. The body / bodies had to be buried the day after
they were put to the tree - after the night during which they “remained
on the tree”. There is absolutely no possibility or implication the bodies
could have been removed from the tree “before sunset” before “all (this)
night”. And that means the dead had to be buried in the daylight
following the night = “that same day”.
There would have been no
sense in having the bodies hung just before sunset only to remove them, again
just before sunset. Therefore, instead of translating like the KJV, “And the
king of Ai he hanged on a tree until eventide [ereb]”, rather translate, “And
the king of Ai he hanged on a tree before sunset [ereb]: and as soon as
the sun dawned, <shemesh> Joshua commanded they should take his
carcase down.” In both events
stone-mounts of such hugeness were built over the graves they “remained unto
this day” – an immense task scheduled certainly for daylight and impossibly for
night-time.
Indeed, just so, Joseph
was obeying Yahweh's commandment. Jesus’ body had to be buried the day after
they hanged Him - in fact after the night in which the body “remained on
the tree”. There is absolutely no possibility or implication the body of Jesus
could have been removed from the tree “before sunset” of the day before - not
before “all night” of the day that afterwards did begin - He “shall not remain all
night”, but “before the sun had risen” shall be taken “down off the tree”,
and “that (same) day” be buried.
That would bring the exact
and full fulfilment “according to the Scriptures the third day” of the typology
of the Passover as prophesied: Deut.16:6 – “But at the place which Yahweh thy Elohim shall
choose to place his name in (i.e., in Jerusalem, in Jesus Christ!),
there thou shalt sacrifice the passover
at even ["ba
ereb"], at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth
out of Egypt.”
Then, o sinner, they
lifted Him upon the tree “before the sun did set” and before “it was evening”,
“so that the Scriptures might be fulfilled”: That was the sacrifice of Him.
“His body shall not remain all night (Mk.15:42, Mt.27:57) upon the tree,
but thou shalt in any wise bury Him that day”. “And after this Joseph of Arimathea came ... he
took the body down ... and the women beheld how his body was laid ... and the
sun declined towards the Sabbath Day.”
Gerhard Ebersöhn
Private Bag 43
Sunninghill 2157
http://www.biblestudents.co.za
Resurrection
on a fourth day?
There are
mainly four (or five) theories around, on which days of the week Jesus was
crucified and resurrected.
FourthDay…………SFifthDay……………SSixthDay……………SSabbath……………SFirst Day
Tue/Wed…………Wed/Thu…....……Thur/Frid……….…Frid/Sat……………Sat/Sun
A………Cru……BurS……/…………………S……./…………………S……./……………SRes…./……
----/--------1---------/---------2---------/---------3--------/--------4-------/……
B………Cru……BurS……/…………...……S……/…………………S……./………….…………./……R
----/--------1---------/---------2--------/---------3--------/---------4------/----5
C………………………………/…Cr………BurS……/…………………S……./………………S……./……R
-----/----------------/----------1---------/---------2--------/--------3-------/---4
D……Tradition…………/………………….S……/…Cr……Bu…S……./………….…………./……R
……………………………………………………….S--------------1---S-------------2---S--------3
E….……………………S……/…Cruc………S……/…Burial.……S……./……Res…S……/……A
…………………………S=====1=====S=====2=====S=====3====Sunset
………………………………Died 3 pm………Grave 3 pm………Resu 3 pm………………
A is the
Wednesday crucifixion theory:
Both Crucifixion and Burial before sunset on Wednesday, Resurrection while
sunset Saturday.
B is the same theory, but with Resurrection on Sunday morning before sunrise.
C is the Thursday crucifixion theory with both Resurrection and Burial before
sunset on Thursday, and Resurrection on Sunday morning before sunrise.
D is the traditional Friday Crucifixion theory with both Resurrection and
Burial before sunset on Friday, and Resurrection on Sunday morning before
sunrise.
E is the Passover-crucifixion appointment, with Crucifixion on Thursday morning
and Death at 3 pm; and burial during the next day on Friday; Resurrection on
Saturday afternoon.
The Wednesday theory overlaps 5, or 6 days, depending on which reckoning of day
is used; but always at least five days or portions thereof. It cannot end with
in the third day.
Thursday / Sunday theory requires 4 or 5 days depending on which reckoning of
day is used; but always at least 4 days. It cannot end with in the third day
Traditional Friday crucifixion theory, has two nights and one and a quarter
days.
Only Thursday-Sabbath Crucifixion and Resurrection Appointment, beginning with
Wednesday night at the hour and Jesus’ descending to hell through suffering and
dying, ends after three nights, and, “on the third day according to the
Scriptures”.
Ed Sutton
The above is about the most ridiculous, contrived mismash [GE:
Sic.], I have ever seen!
FTR, I can reckon time by both the Jewish and/or the Roman methods!
GE
‘Most ridiculous contrived mishmash’,
dear Ed Sutton, is this one, I must agree!
Tu/Wed……Wed/Thu………………Thu/Frid……………Frid/Sat……………Sat/Sun……
C………………S………/…Cr…………BS………/………………S………/………………S………/……Res
…………………S1……/……………….…S2……/……….………S3……/………………S4……/5…????
Have you
recognised whose it is?
Ed Sutton
“Have you recognised whose
it is?” (Sic.) I do not know what
exactly is being attempted, here, nor do I even care, or will I bother to
attempt to decipher it.
GE
“ “Have you recognised whose it is?” (Sic.)” – I do not know what is wrong here?
what did you use ‘sic’ for?
‘FTR’ (whatever it stands for though ‘I can reckon’ its meaning), when I
document a discussion, I usually try to correct spelling mistakes. But here I’m
making an exception.
Ed Sutton
The “mismash”
[Sic. GE] occurs when
this supposed group of five allegedly different chronologies (with four
variational explanations) are all superimposed, one on top of another, to show
your purported point, by the differences.
FTR, the points I have made are supportable by Scripture, IMO, without having
to read alleged allegory and typology (where Scripture does not give any) into
it. Others who have different views believe the same as I, as to the points
they make being supportable. I assume you believe your points are supportable,
as well. I have seen such presented on these discussions with a range of days
of the Crucifixion from Wednesday through Friday, as we reckon time, and a
range of the time of the resurrection from Saturday afternoon thru early Sunday
morning, again as we reckon time.
It is not necessary to resort to hyperbole and ridicule or misrepresentation of
another’s view to allegedly have been deternmined [Sic. GE] by the Roman
Catholic church, such as my own view that the resurrection occurred sometime
before the dawning or early light of “the first day of the week”, to present
these, IMO, especially when one can easily see through your own thinly-veiled
agenda of having the resurrection occur “on Gods Sabbath”, which you have
openly admitted espousing. I do not care what the Roman Catholic church says,
nor have read anything theological about this from any Roman Catholic theologue
wannabe, at any time. But I do fairly well with English, I think (My alter-ego
is known as Langauge Cop.), [Sic. GE] and can fight
my way through a bit of Greek, with a fair amount of difficulty.
I have read the texts (all of them) that directly deal with this question in
multiple English versions, more than once. I find that the Bible does shed a
lot of light on the commentary made about it.
GE
Dear Ed Sutton, You cannot kill this subject; you cannot make facts
disappear; you cannot cope with your own conscience. May God be merciful to
you. But thanks for your comments; they cannot be improved on; yet I have
allowed myself a few hiccups in brackets to highlight some of its most
excellent points.
Ed Sutton
I am not attempting to kill anything. I have posted previously as
to this sequence of events, where you and I disagree in interpretation of the
time frame. But mentioning “5 days”, let alone “6 days”, is a ridiculous
stretch, at best. Not one person, other than you, has been able to come up with
“5 days”, or “6 days”, in any event, even from a “Wednesday” crucifixion, nor
could you, except by simultaneously combining “Roman time”, “Jewish time”, the
phrasing of such, then adding to it, the contemporary speaking of days
collectively, and then drawing out from that amalgamation, a contrived
reckoning, solely for the purpose of disparaging it.
GE
We haven’t got
previous discussions in front of us; you confuse everybody.
Ed Sutton
Any
possible scenario from approximately 3 pm on a Wednesday afternoon, until
approximately slightly before 6 AM on Sunday morning, covers a time span of a
maximum of nearing 87 hours, or nine hours less than is possible to get into a
5th 24 hr. day, let alone a 6th one. This little contrived
scenario also fails to take into account the more than 81 hrs., or almost
another 3 1/2 days remaining to get back around to the following Wednesday at 3
pm, needed to conclude one week. There are still, now as then, only 7 days and
168 hours in a week, and even Joshua and Hezekiah, on their best day, did not
see any 80 hr. day!
(Them’s the facts!! And they are not disappearing, but
lying right there in front of you, in front of all!!)
Although apparently in them, Gerhard Ebersoehn can still manage to see an 80 hr
day.
I do have to acknowledge some of the most creative isogesis, I have ever seen
in my entire life, however, in this attempt to prove a point. Frankly, I am not
the one who should have the conscience problem, here.
Allen
Nevermind, it would be pointless.
FTR- Resurrection was on the 1st day.
Living for Him who
Died for me -- Allan V.
“For God to know
and judge us by our heart leaves us with no hope at all.” -- nunatak
GE
Ed Sutton, You
may use any adjectives. It impresses me not a bit. And again, keep up your
comments; they effectively explain “right there in front of all” what I intended to show, and remove
any doubt others may have had as to its implications. I now don’t have to
explain how it is possible, or, how impossible it is – except with “the most
creative isogesis”.
Dear Allen, Living for Him who Died for me
-- but only o Lord, don’t remind me of the Scriptures; do not I pray, show me
otherwise I am accustomed to the traditions and esteem of men, and the comforts
of society. Yea, I would follow thee in hunger and want, only not under threat
of the Word.
Ed Sutton
Congratulations! Nice ad hominem in the blue type! It would
appear that the facts do not impress you, either.
Samuel Owen:
And you expect people to take your seriously when you act this
immature?? As I said it would be
pointless and you proved my point perfectly.
GE
Ed Sutton, “facts”!? Facts would require we all burn our
Bibles and become Roman Catholics and accept the Sunday resurrection tradition
or be anatomised. Only Ed Sutton’s theory
holds! Without facts to stand on except those implied in his attack on my
methods above. Just not going against the norm: overstep Sunday-sacredness and
overstep all bounds of Christian behaviour!
Ich und mein Dachshündchen, wir gehen spazieren nun!
Samuel Owen
Don’t walk too far, and tell your dog hello for me
GE
Thanks Samuel
Owen, this is really encouraging, “For God to know and judge us by our heart leaves us with no hope at
all.” I feel a lot better!
On my and my four legged
friend’s stroll I thought, Help Ed
Sutton to sort out his own theory for himself, to see how long the day is
he has reached! So here is it,
Tu/Wed……Wed/Thu………………Thu/Frid……………Frid/Sat……………Sat/Sun……
C………………S………/…Cr…………BS………/………………S………/………………S………/……Res
…………………S1……/……………….…S2……/……….………S3……/………………S4……/5…????
Beginning (where Ed Sutton
began) sunset Wednesday:
To sunset Thursday,
Crucifixion and Burial………………=24 hours;
To sunset Friday, In
Grave……………………………………….=24 hours;
To sunset Saturday, In
Grave……………………………………=24 hours;
To sunrise Sunday morning,
Resurrection……………….=12 hours.
“The third day, according
to the Scriptures”; “The third day, I finish!”; “After two days”; “In the third
day”; “On the third day”; “With the third day”. Ed Sutton says, the third day
must be on Sunday, and must be, Sunday (“Absolutely not! The resurrection was not on the
Sabbath” (of the Commandment), I remember
his words.); and I say, but then it is on the fourth day; which he says, is my “most creative
isogesis”; so then how can Ed Sutton’s ‘third day’ not
be 36 hours long? So
then how can his ‘third day’, not be the calendar’s, fourth day? (In another discussion Ed Sutton told us he
indicates his ‘third day’, “on the calender”? [Sic.])
‘Known as Langauge Cop’ Ed Sutton’s ‘best day’
is a good match for ‘even Joshua and Hezekiahs’!
Gwyneth
I may not be as knowledgeable as some with regard to the times/
dates / no. of days etc. but - I know that GOD RAISED HIM and that HE LIVES
and that is enough for me . Living,
He loved me; dying, He saved me; buried, He carried my sins far away, rising He
justified freely forever: one day He`s coming: oh glorious day.
DonnaA
.......
FourthDay…………SFifthDay……………SSixthDay……………SSabbath……………SFirst Day
Tue/Wed…………Wed/Thu…....……Thur/Frid……….…Frid/Sat……………Sat/Sun
A………Cru……BurS……/…………………S……./…………………S……./……………SRes…./……
----/--------1---------/---------2---------/---------3--------/--------4-------/……
B………Cru……BurS……/…………...……S……/…………………S……./………….…………./……R
----/--------1---------/---------2--------/---------3--------/---------4------/----5
C………………………………/…Cr………BurS……/…………………S……./………………S……./……R
-----/----------------/----------1---------/---------2--------/--------3-------/---4
D……Tradition…………/………………….S……/…Cr……Bu…S……./………….…………./……R
……………………………………………………….S--------------1---S-------------2---S--------3
E….……………………S……/…Cruc………S……/…Burial.……S……./……Res…S……/……A
…………………………S=====1=====S=====2=====S=====3====Sunset
………………………………Died 3 pm………Grave 3 pm………Resu 3 pm………………
This is junk.
Scripture is to be believed, this is not.
Matt 28:1
In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day
of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre
Mark 16:9
9Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week,
he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
Luke 24:1
1Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they
came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and
certain others with them.
GE
Indeed! Scripture is to be believed, this not— not in its
entirety.
This from it, is what is ‘junk’: .......
FourthDay…………SFifthDay……………SSixthDay……………SSabbath……………SFirst Day
Tue/Wed…………Wed/Thu…....……Thur/Frid……….…Frid/Sat……………Sat/Sun
A………Cru……BurS……/…………………S……./…………………S……./……………SRes…./……
----/--------1---------/---------2---------/---------3--------/--------4-------/……
B………Cru……BurS……/…………...……S……/…………………S……./………….…………./……R
----/--------1---------/---------2--------/---------3--------/---------4------/----5
C………………………………/…Cr………BurS……/…………………S……./………………S……./……R
-----/-----------------/---------1---------/---------2--------/-------3--------/---4
D……Tradition…………/………………….S……/…Cr……Bu…S……./………….…………./……R
……………………………………………………….S--------------1---S-------------2---S--------3
But this from it, is ‘Scripture’—
that should be believed! .....
E….……………………S……/…Cruc………S……/…Burial.……S……./……Res…S……/……A
…………………………S=====1=====S=====2=====S=====3====Sunset
………………………………Died 3 pm………Grave 3 pm………Resu 3 pm………………
Which is your
choice?
Now, quoting DonnaA who quoted, “Matt 28:1, In
the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week ...” Read: “In the end of the sabbath, as it began
to dawn toward the first day of the week ...”. It still says exactly what “In the end of
the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week” says, only I have put the stress on better places;
you put it on the wrong words. The best way would have been:— “Matt 28:1, In
the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week ...” Read: “In the end of the sabbath, as it began
to dawn toward the first day of the week ...”, so that one might clearly see, not the First,
but, the Sabbath Day. (Phew! I’m sure my granddaughter of pre-school age
will understand!)
“...
came
Mary Magdalene ...”— Read: “went
/set out Mary Magdalene ...”; Why?:— “to
see the sepulchre”. Did they see the tomb? No, they did not. How do we
know they did not? This very verse tells why:— “Behold! There was a great earthquake.” And there were
other reasons; more than one!
“... as it began to dawn ...”— See .....
Samuel Owen:
This
is what it says in all of my KJV versions, “In the end of the sabbath, as it
began to dawn toward the first day of the week.” “As it began to dawn towards”; would indicate
it was the eve of the first DAY, (night of the first day.)
GE
Correct: “As it began to dawn towards; would indicate it was the eve of the
first DAY”!; even,
‘“As it began to dawn towards” would
indicate it was the eve of the First-Day
and of the night of the First Day— in other words, afternoon Sabbath before
sunset. As simple as your own words!
But read what
you have said YOURSELF!: “In the end OF the sabbath, as it began to
dawn TO-wards the first day of the week”.
‘Dawn’: When was the ‘dawn’ of the twenty first century? It was the last
part of the twentieth century? Of
course it was! ‘Dawn’ as the last part of night-before
sunrise, that is ‘dawn’ of the light-day.
That does not correlate with the division of the ‘Bible-day’. The ‘Bible-day’
begins with sunset, and therefore
the ‘dawn’ of the 24-hour-night-and-daylight-day
of Bible-reckoning, is the last part of the day-before it, which is the afternoon – the after 12 pm to sunset part
– of the previous day before the next full day-cycle of night-then-day following. ...
... which is exactly the same thing as ‘dawn’!
Collins: “eve” / “even” - “The evening or day before ...”; “evening” – “the
latter part of the day ...”. (‘Evening’ developed a modern meaning to indicate
the first part of night. That is STILL, miles apart from the next ‘morning’!)
Now to further
quote DonnaA who quoted Mark 16:9 Now
when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he
appeared first to Mary Magdalene ...
Luke 24:1, Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the
morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices ...”
I’ll
answer in the same way, and hand back to you your own words, “Now when Jesus was risen, he early the first day of the week, appeared first to Mary Magdalene
... Now upon the first day of the week, very early in
the morning, they, came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they
had prepared.” Do you once read that “On the First Day”,
Jesus rose from the dead? Not once! Each time, you read that He appeared, or
that the women, ‘came’.
Samuel Owen
It really does not matter which way you see it.
GE
As long as it
is ‘my way’.
Samuel Owen
It really does not matter. A Thursday crucifixion, or Friday,
neither violates a Sunday resurrection. That is really the most important! part
of the resurrection account.
GE
That it
doesn’t ‘violate a Sunday resurrection’?!
Samuel Owen
The Bible states plainly! the first day of the week was the
resurrection, to say otherwise discredits Gods word, and that is no small
thing. Personally I would not waste my time, arguing for either. I don’t know
where the author of the article I posted got his dating information, but there
are ways providing you have the right year. There are different opinions on the
year also. The important part is that you believe he died for out sin, and was
resurrected to justify our faith in him (the proof of Gods acceptance of his
sacrifice). Apart from faith, there is no record other than Gods word, that it
even occurred. The Bible tells us the “Just shall walk by faith, and not by
site”. Besides trying to date set any occurrence, is contrary to Gods word.
I really have never asked for any proof, and never will, I just simply accept
that there is a Jesus (son of God), and that he died for my sin. I do that by
faith only!
Ok, I did a lot of research on this, including my own. I had never
given this much thought, until a thread came up on another board. Read this
article carefully, when I posted it on the other forum, someone thought it
affirmed their Wednesday theory. But in fact it does not, but is a Thursday
description.
A lot of homework was done on this article, and the evidence is
overwhelming. At the end he has some other interesting comments/ideas also. So
bring your lunch if you have to. The article is long, so read it slowly. In
fact it is so long I had to post it in two posts.
Article,
In order to understand the significance of the Jewish feasts, we
must comprehend their purpose and timing. The most complete description of the
feasts is found in Leviticus 23. Each of the feasts have both a historic and
prophetic significance. They celebrate a historical event in
1. Passover: [Ex. 12:1-14 & Lev. 23:4,5] On the 10th day of the first
month, Nisan, [roughly equivalent to April on our calendar], every family of
2. Unleavened Bread: [Lev. 23:6-8] The day following Passover, the 15th of
Nisan, began the feast of Unleavened bread. This feast covered seven days, from
the 15th to the 21st of Nisan. The first and last days, [15th & 21st], were
“High Sabbath” days, although they do not necessarily fall on the weekly
Sabbath. “High Sabbath” days are mandatory rest days which occur during some
feast days. They are identified in Lev. 23:7, 8, 21, 24, 27, 28, 32, 35, 36,
39. Just as with the weekly Sabbath, the day before any “High Sabbath” is a “preparation
day.” This means Passover, the 14th, is also the “preparation day” for the “High
Sabbath” on the 15th, [see: John 18:28, 19:14,31]. The feast of Unleavened
Bread celebrates the journey of the children of
3. Firstfruits: [Lev. 23:9-14] During the seven day Feast of Unleavened Bread
fell a Sunday. In the year of the crucifixion, Sunday fell on the 18th of
Nisan, three days after Jesus was put in the tomb. On this Sunday, called the Feast
of Firstfruits, each Israelite family brought a single bundle of barley to the
4. Pentecost: [Lev. 23:15-21] From the feast of Firstfruits, the Jews were to
count seven Sabbaths, [49 days]. The Sunday following the seventh Sabbath, was
the Feast of Pentecost, [which means “fiftieth”]. This feast commemorated the
giving of the Law to Moses on
The first four feasts were fulfilled by Jesus both symbolically
and literally at His first coming. The last three will be fulfilled by Jesus at
His second coming. Since the first four feasts were fulfilled on the very days
God commanded His people to celebrate them, it is reasonable to conclude that
the remaining three feasts will also be fulfilled on the actual feast days as
well.
5. Feast of Trumpets: [Lev. 23:23-25] God commanded
6. The Day of Atonement: [Lev. 23:26-32] The Feast of Trumpets is followed by
ten days called by modern Jews, “the days of awe.” This is a time of national
repentance for
7. The Feast of Tabernacles: [Lev. 23:33-43] Five days after the Day of
Atonement is the Feast of Tabernacles. From the 15th to the 22nd of the seventh
month was a time of the greatest rejoicing. It was the festival of all
festivals.
There is another day that is celebrated by
John 10:22-23
22 And it was at
23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon’s porch. (KJV)
That Channukah is always 75 days after The Day of Atonement may be related to
an interesting prophecy in Daniel.
Dan 12:12
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and
five and thirty days.
(KJV)
1,335 days is exactly 75 days more than the 1260 days that Antichrist will
reign. So, if the Antichrist is destroyed on the Day of Atonement, then the
extra 75 days lands us directly on the first day of Channukah. It seems likely
this has to do with the rededication of the
Since Jesus fulfilled the first four feasts on the actual feast days, we can
conclude that He will fulfil the last three in the same manner. This means that
the battle of Armageddon will likely be on the Day of Atonement, the 10th day
of the seventh month. Could the rapture be the same day? Or, could it be
perhaps 10 days earlier on the Feast of Trumpets?
GE
I’m quoting Samuel Owen who quoted, “His body laid in
the tomb for the first three days of this feast, from the 15th through the 17th
of Nisan”. As for this quoted statement, I challenge anyone
to present one Scripture in support of it. The statement is one big mistake
composed of various inaccuracies. I immediately realised, same old story all
over. The author’s ‘lot of research’ and ‘homework’, despite.
I have said
these things so many times before, it actually tires me physically to repeat
them. Therefore please do me and maybe yourself the favour, and download at no
cost whatsoever from http://www.biblestudents.co.za
every imaginable aspect of the issue. There are complete books, but also short
extracts and articles. The wrong things receive attention and against it, in
contrast, the right thing. Here’s one of the wrong:
The Thursday
Crucifixion – Sunday Resurrection Theory
Tu/Wed……Wed/Thu………………Thu/Frid……………Frid/Sat……………Sat/Sun……
C………………S………/…Cr…………BS………/………………S………/………………S………/……Res
…………………S1……/……………….…S2……/……….………S3……/………………S4……/5…????
I’ll post you
one page, I have found helped most people a lot.
Please let me know if it has been of benefit to you?
From the
first to “the third day according to the Scriptures”. . .
. . . the
first day, 14
Nisan, “Preparation of the Passover”, Thursday, begins :
“Evening” – Preparation for, and the Lords Supper
●Mk.14:12,
17, Mt26:17, 20; Lk.22:7, 13-14; Jn.13:1-17:26
“Night” – Anguish, Betrayal, Denial
Mk.14:26-42, Jn.18:1-27
(Mt.12:40 – retrospective prophecy)
“Early” – Trial, Delivered, Way to Cross
Jn.18:28-19:22
Middle Day – Crucifixion,
Mocking, Darkness,
Mk.15:25, 29, 33,
Jn.19:23-29
“The ninth hour”,
Afternoon – Died, deserted
Mt.27:46, Jn.19:30, Lk.23:48
. . . the
second day, 15
Nisan, Passover Feast, “The Fore-Sabbath”, Friday, begins:
“Evening” – Jews, “after this”, Joseph
●Mk.15:42, Mt.27:57,
Lk.23:52; Jn.19:31-40,
“Night” – Took the body down, prepared
Mk.15:42-46b, Mt.27:58-59,
Lk.23:53a Jn.19:32-40
“Afternoon” – Buried
Mk.15:46c-47, Mt.27:60-61,
Lk.23:53b-56b, Jn.19:41-42
. . . “the third day”,
16 Nisan, First
Sheaf Wave Offering, “Sabbath”, begins :
“Began to rest”
Lukas
23:56c
“Afternoon” – Resurrection
Only Matthew 28:1-4 (Mk.16:9 – implied)
. . . the fourth day, 17 Nisan, Sunday, begins :
“The Sabbath past”
Only Mark 16:1
“Early darkness”, first sight of opened grave
Only John 20:1-2
“Deep morning”, planned visit, Marys, Salome and other
women
Only Luke 24:1-11
“Very early dawn”, Marys and Salome affirm
Only Mark 16:2 further (Lk.24:24 – implied)
“Early”, Sunrise, first Appearance to
Mary only
Only John 20:11-18 (Mk.16:9 – reference)
Early daylight – second
appearance, to other women
Only Matthew 28:5-15
“Afternoon”, Appearance to two “disciples”
Only Luke 24:13-32, (Mk.16:12-13 – implied)
. . . the fifth day, 18 Nisan, Monday, begins :
“Being evening (that
day having been the First Day)”, upper room
Lk.23:33 further, Jn.20:19
further, Mk.16:14
“So shall the Son of Man
have been in the heart of the earth for three days and for three nights” when
raised from the dead “for a sign”! Matthew 12:40.
I quote Samuel Owen who quoted, “His body laid in
the tomb for the first three days of this feast, from the 15th through the 17th
of Nisan.”
Is “This
feast” --
(1) The whole month of Abib? “Observe the month of Abib”? Obviously not.
Is “This
feast” --
(2) The whole
of ‘Passover’, as ‘Feast’? The ‘Season’ of ‘Passover Feast’, including the “Preparation of the
Passover” and / or its ‘sabbath’?
Obviously not, for this statement isn’t speaking of Nisan 14.
Is “This
feast” --
(3) The first
day of ‘Unleavened Bread Feast’? Possibly; but only as the Feast of Unleavened
Bread Eat, the first day of which
eating of unleavened bread, was Nisan 15,
yes! But ‘Unleavened Bread Feast’ – as a
whole –, may also include its “Day of de-Leaven” / “when
they removed leaven”. (And if they did not, they had to be removed from the
People by death!) Unleavened Bread ‘Feast’
as a whole – “from the 15th through the 17th of Nisan” – also included “Preparation of Passover” Nisan 14.
Mk14:12, Mt26:17, Lk22:7, Jn19:14.
Nisan 14 was the day “They had to slaughter the passover (lamb)”, and,
had to “remove leaven from all the
land”! Here’s where one’s count of “This feast”
and, the ‘three days and
three nights’ of Mt12:40 should start—
with this day with its beginning with sunset -- not
from Nisan 15 in the night of which the
lamb was eaten; not together and
while at the same time the first unleavened bread was being eaten. The right
day to start the (whole) ‘Passover-Feast’ with, is Nisan 14, and not Nisan 15. The right day to
start ‘The-Unleavened-Bread’ with, is Nisan 15, and not Nisan 14.
That is the first point.
Next point: “So shall the Son of Man be in
the heart of the earth, three days and three nights.” Where does being “In the heart of the earth”,
begin? In other words, What constitutes, being “in the heart of the earth”?
“His body laid in
the tomb for the first three days of this feast, from the 15th through the
17th of Nisan”? Does ‘His body laid in the tomb’ mean, Jesus’
having been ‘In the heart of the earth’?
“In the heart
of the earth” is symbolic language, so don’t expect a literal “body laid in the tomb” its meaning, for it is not its
meaning, because its meaning is not literal, but figuratively is, “in the heart
of the earth”! The only thing that
could fulfil the true meaning of being “in the heart of the earth”, will
correspond with Jonah’s experience when
literally in the fish he spiritually ( or figuratively) had been “in the heart
of the earth”. One cannot live through
something while being dead; so being “in the heart of the earth”, cannot have
been when Jesus had been in the grave, dead. Jonah said he descended as it were
alive, into hell. In what does Jesus’ experience correspond to Jonah’s
experience? In his suffering the pangs of death, Jesus truly tasted of hell’s anguish alive.
Jesus’ being ‘in the heart of the earth’ was His having tasted of hell’s
anguish alive— “My God, my God, why hast
Thou forsaken Me?” Alive— from
that “My hour has come” – His ‘hour’ that was also the “hour of wicked men”.
Jesus’ spiritual anguish marks the beginning
of His being ‘in the heart of the earth’; He had to bear the hour of God’s
wrath on the wickedness of all men.
Of course his physical suffering was one aspect of this, Jesus’ spiritual suffering. But the first day
of the three days within which Jesus would be crucified and would suffer death, would begin with this His ‘hour’, in that He would “glorify” His Father, willingly and consciously – working towards its fulfilment
“according to the Scriptures” of the Law!
The day of Nisan 14 is marked with
this hour specifically as ‘Passover’; not Nisan 15. Nisan 15 is marked with something else as specifically ‘Passover’, which
was its assignment to be ‘Feast’ of the eating of the Passover lamb, together
with the first eating of or
‘feasting’ on unleavened bread – its ‘Feast’, called the ‘sabbath’ of the
Passover and ‘sabbath-of-Unleavened-Bread-Feast(-High-Day)’. Nisan 14
was the first day of the ‘eight-days-Feast-of-Passover’; Nisan 15 was
the first day of the ‘seven-days-Passover-Feast-of-Unleavened-Bread’. Any explanation of the Passover’s dates and
days that not first of all explains the differences between Nisan 14 and Nisan
15, without further consideration or fear to miss out on something valuable, can
be disposed of as erroneous and futile.
Quoting Samuel Owen who quoted another, “On the evening
of the 14th the Passover lamb was killed, cooked, and eaten during the night.”
This is not so
simple! It here seems very simple because the author speaks as though from
Exodus only, without having paid attention to what the rest of the Old
Testament Scriptures say on the subject. It amounts to this, that it is true
that “On the evening of the 14th the Passover lamb was killed”, but it is true while “evening” is correctly understood for
‘afternoon’, first of all, to distinguish between what was done before sunset
and what was done after sunset; what, during daylight, and what, during
night-time. Because the lamb in fact was “cooked, and eaten during the night” after sunset. Now this ‘eating’ or
‘feasting’ of the lamb during the night, is in all the Old Testament except Exodus, expressly stated done on
“the fifteenth day of the First
Month” – never, on Nisan 14, as in
Exodus only.
This is a most
basic and most important distinction one must never loose sight of (but always
is overseen and deemed as of no consequence, either by ignorance, laziness, or
prejudice). On Nisan 14 the lamb was killed – on the very day “they removed
leaven from all the land”. So Nisan 14 before sunset had to be the day Jesus
was crucified and died on. On Nisan 15 after sunset, “during night”, “the lamb was cooked and eaten” – and the process of its assimilation
with the earth or back to the earth, was begun. The lamb’s eating was the
beginning of the process, and the removal of the remains of it out of the land
of Egypt was the continuing of its process of assimilation back to the earth;
and its burning was the completion of its process of re-assimilation with the
earth, or, of its ‘interment’— “dust to dust” – symbolic or figurative of
Jesus’ interment or burial! This was Nisan 15
throughout, no longer, Nisan 14 as
in Exodus!
Jesus could
not be buried on the same day He was
crucified and died on! It would be contrary its ‘Passover-appointment’.
Therefore the quoted sentence, “On the evening
of the 14th the Passover lamb was killed, cooked, and eaten during the night” from no point of view can be
acceptable, either, meant it, “On the evening
of the 14th the Passover lamb was killed” and “during the night” it was “cooked, and eaten”, or, everything “during the night”, as it stands, “On the evening of the 14th the Passover lamb was
killed, cooked, and eaten during the night”. The lamb was never “killed, cooked,
and eaten during the night”.
It is a climactic conclusive lie of this ‘lot
of research and homework’. Throw it in your rubbish bin!
I’m quoting Samuel Owen who quoted, “The day
following Passover, the 15th of Nisan, began the feast of Unleavened bread.
This feast covered seven days, from the 15th to the 21st of Nisan.”
Yes, and no. The
‘Passover Feast’, ‘covered’ more
than just “seven days from the 15th to the 21st of Nisan”.
The ‘Passover
Feast’, ‘covered’ also
Nisan 14 – ‘covered’ also what this statement calls “Passover” as such.
As much as “this feast covered seven days from
the 15th to the 21st of Nisan”, “this feast” also ‘covered’ eight
days from Nisan 14 to
the 21st of Nisan. Nisan 14 as much as for being
the day of the slaying of the lamb, for being the day of the removal of leaven— ‘by ordinance’ –,
belonged to ‘the Passover’! ‘Unleaven’ or ‘remove leaven’ and ‘slaughter
lamb’ – Nisan 14 – equally belong to ‘the Feast of Unleavened Bread’ and ‘the
Feast of Passover’. Just like any day of
the eat of Unleavened Bread from the 15th to the 21st of Nisan belonged to “the Passover”, did the “Preparation
of Passover” Nisan 14, belong to “the
Passover”.
Quoting Samuel Owen who quoted, “[15th &
21st], were “High Sabbath” days, although they do not necessarily fall on the
weekly Sabbath. “High Sabbath” days are mandatory rest days which occur during
some feast days.” Only keep
in mind “mandatory rest” is a relative idea; it does not exclude all and
any labour, physical or not. In fact, Nisan 15 High Day of Passover, being
‘Passover’s sabbath’, was the day upon which God commanded the Israelites to
leave
Quoting Samuel Owen who quoted, “His body [His
flesh] was laid in the tomb just before sunset, when the “High Sabbath” of the
Feast of Unleavened Bread began.” Concerning this ‘question’ see above, p 90-91,
“this
Feast”, above, re ‘in the heart
of the earth’. Here, I pay attention to “laid in the tomb just before sunset’. In stead of repeating all the arguments, I
shall only reiterate the outcome of those arguments, that the true texts of
both the Hebrew and the Greek only confirm what is found in Dt21:23 even as
translated, that the body “shall not remain on the tree all night”, but shall be removed before the sun has risen, or, literally, before “light /
sunrise”, and not before sunset or
darkness.
Yea, what is interesting in this very case at hand, the author
while contradicting himself, confirms what I say, saying, “...before
sunset, when the “High Sabbath” of the Feast of Unleavened Bread began”.
Now when does a ‘day’ (of night and day according to the Bible now) ‘begin’? It
begins as soon as the sun has set – not as soon as the sun has risen! Therefore
how could the body be laid in the tomb before sunset yet when the day had
begun? It doesn’t make sense because the whole concept and all its parts are
plainly wrong. The correct facts are
that the body was taken down in that beginning night of Nisan 15, before
sunrise, and was laid in the tomb the
same day after, so that Joseph could close the grave about three
o’clock Friday “afternoon”— perfectly fulfilling the prophetic significance of
both Dt21:23 and the Passover Law.
This overseen division
between Day of Crucifixion and Day of Interment found in Mk14:12, Mt26:17 and Lk22:7 (see p 89
above), is surely the biggest flaw in all the known ‘chronologies’ of the
‘Passion week’. It is a trait of especially Ed Sutton’s theory, seeing he too places Crucifixion and Burial on
the same day before sunset. How he gets past Mk.14:12/17, Mt26:17/20, Lk.22:7/13-14,
Jn.13:1/17:26, only he will know or could explain.
Quoting Samuel Owen who
quoted, “Firstfruits: [Lev. 23:9-14] During the seven day Feast of
Unleavened Bread fell a Sunday.” Now this is the biggest nonsense out, and
giving “Lev. 23:9-14”, is most assuming.
Can’t these people think of anything genuine? In answer, I present the following, obtained from www.truthontheweb.org (Not
that I agree with all they teach). But this is a snip from a good article.
The Morrow After the Sabbath
“And ye shall count unto you from
the morrow after the Sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the
wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete: Even unto the morrow after
the seventh Sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat
offering unto the LORD.” (Leviticus 23:15,16)
Now, those who hold to a Nisan 16th
date for beginning the count, whether they reckon by actual new moons or the
CRC, teach that the word translated “Sabbath” in verse 16 (shabbath--Strongs #7676) should actually
be translated as “week.” Such a translation is necessary for this type of
Pentecost reckoning due to the fact that Sivan 6 does not always occur on the
day after a weekly Sabbath (nor do Sivan 5 or 7, for that matter) as required
by Leviticus 23:16. But, if shabbath
should be translated “week” in verse 16, it should likewise be so translated in
verse 15 regarding which day to begin the count. Such a systematic theology
though damages their doctrine for it does away with Nisan 16 as a starting
point (since with such a translation, the count does not need to begin on a day after a Sabbath
either).
But, is it even true that shabbath should
be translated as “week”?
7676 Shabbath “intermission, i.e., (spec.) the Sabbath.” (Strongs
Hebrew and Aramaic Dictionary of the Old Testament)
The fact is, shabbath is never rendered “week” in Scripture, nor is it ever
used to refer to the first day of the Feast of Unleavens as those who hold to a
Nisan 16 Elevation Sheaf Day propose.
Now, some may ask, isn’t Pentecost also called the “Feast of Weeks” though?
“Seven weeks shalt thou number unto
thee: begin to number the seven weeks from such time as thou beginnest to put the sickle to the corn. And thou shalt keep the Feast of
Weeks unto the LORD thy God with a tribute of a freewill offering of thine
hand, which thou shalt give unto the
LORD thy God, according as the LORD thy God hath blessed thee.”
(Deuteronomy 16:9,10)
Yes, Pentecost is the Feast of Weeks, however, the word translated “weeks” in
the Scripture above (as well as Exodus 34:22; Numbers 28:26; and II Chronicles
8:13) is NOT shabbath, but rather it is shabuah:
7620 Shabuah “lit.
sevened, i.e., a week.” (Strongs Hebrew and Aramaic Dictionary of the Old Testament)
Shavuah is the Hebrew word that
means “week.” If God intended for Pentecost to be reckoned without regard to
the weekly Sabbaths, He would have inspired Moses to use this word, instead of Shabbath, in Leviticus 23:15,16.
For those who contend with the Strongs lexicon definitions given above:
Search the Holy Scripture to find wherein “Shabbath” is used in reference to a week and not the weekly
Sabbath itself.
Search the Holy Scripture to find where the first day of the Feast of Unleavens
is ever referred to as the “Shabbath”
[Leviticus 23:15 & 16 both use the definitive article (i.e., “the”--as
opposed to “a”) in reference to Shabbath].
What is the only other reference to “shabbath”
in Leviticus 23 prior to its use in verses 15 & 16? (the answer is found in
verse 3). This contextual relation thus further shows what word (“the Sabbath”
as opposed to “the week”) and what day (“the Sabbath” as opposed to “the first
day of the Feast of Unleavens”) was meant by “shabbath” in verses 15 & 16.”
Quoting Samuel Owen who quoted, “In the year of
the crucifixion, Sunday fell on the 18th of Nisan, three days after Jesus was
put in the tomb.”
Dear Samuel Owen, you
haven’t given us information on how or where this author got his ‘facts’ from!
But I’ll tell you, he sucked it from somebody else’s thumb – not even from his
own – both these statements, as a matter of ‘fact’!
(1) On what grounds
the taking for granted ‘fact’, “In the year of the crucifixion, Sunday fell on the 18th of Nisan”? In which year was that? You are a gullible soul! You need to put in a lot more research,
brother, this writer is deceiving you. He may call himself a Christian, but he
teaches lies.
Consult ‘The Lord’s Day in
the Covenant of Grace’, Book 1/1 for far more likely options. Personally, I
reckon 30 AD the year of our Lord’s death and resurrection. Read Paragraph
5.1.1.6.1.4.1.2, ‘Possible Years of Christ’s Birth’, in which year according to
the best of my knowledge the Bible as well as astrometric calculation, place 18th
of Nisan on Monday. Jesus wasn’t
raised on Monday.
(2) You
above have told us, this quoted “article ... is a Thursday (Crucifixion) description”. According to you people three
days after Jesus on the day that He was crucified was put in the tomb, would be
Thursday “Nisan 14” (day one); Nisan 15 would be Friday (day two);
Nisan 16 would be Sabbath (day three); Nisan 17, would be Sunday (day four). Jesus rose from the dead “the third day” – not, the fourth.
(3) The Scriptures for
definite teach Jesus was put in the tomb on Friday. As I have shown you and you me, Friday was Nisan 15 –
which gives Friday day one; Nisan 16 the weekly Sabbath day two; Nisan 17
Sunday day three “after Jesus was put in the tomb” – but, four days after He was crucified! How can we believe you?
Quoting Samuel Owen who
quoted, “Pentecost: [Lev. 23:15-21] From the feast of Firstfruits, the Jews
were to count seven Sabbaths, [49 days]. The Sunday following the seventh
Sabbath, was the Feast of Pentecost, [which means “fiftieth”].”
The underlying argument is the same as that for First Sheaf Wave Offering, just
repeated, and therefore nothing the stronger except weaker for wear and tear.
Quoting Samuel Owen who
quoted, “This feast
commemorated the giving of the Law to Moses on
This says nothing for
Sunday and everything for the Sabbath as that day of God’s fulfilling his great
promise on. Consult LD, Appendix to Part 3 / 1, page 2 – Pentecost – “Fiftieth
Day” – ‘Lightfoot’ – Forty and ten
days to Pentecost, p 321f, and many other places. How Pentecost is actually
given by date of month and day, to have been on the Sabbath! See even Book 4 of LD, Jonathan Edwards,
Sermons on 1Cor16:2, there considered.
Quoting Samuel Owen who quoted, “Pentecost: [Lev.
23:15-21] From the feast of Firstfruits, the Jews were to count seven Sabbaths,
[49 days]. The Sunday following the seventh Sabbath, was the Feast of
Pentecost, [which means “fiftieth”]. This feast commemorated the giving of the
Law to Moses on
“The Sunday
following the seventh Sabbath, was the Feast of Pentecost, [which means “fiftieth”].” You see,
this is what I call arrogance; it shows above anything else, fearless
disrespect for the Scriptures. Such disrespect for the Scriptures, it follows
naturally, springs from shallow knowledge and understanding, which is evident
just by looking at, “Pentecost: [Lev. 23:15-21] From the feast of Firstfruits, the Jews
were to count seven Sabbaths”. What’s wrong with “Pentecost: [Lev.
23:15-21] From the feast of Firstfruits, the Jews were to count seven Sabbaths”, you ask?
When a person write articles like this, he should know what he’s
talking, and to so casually use the denomination ‘feast of
Firstfruits’, is inexcusable. The “Lev. 23:15-21 ... feast of Firstfruits”,
or the “Lev. 23:15-21 ... Firstfruits”
isn’t just any ‘firstfruits’. It is the First Sheaf Wave Offering Before the
LORD, and nothing generally above or short of it.
Show me where it is written “From the feast
of Firstfruits, the Jews were to count seven Sabbaths”, and I retract what I have ever written. The author of this article’s indifference
guarantees there are misconceptions a coming with a speed, or rather, have come
upon the reader already. ‘The Jews’ were not supposed “to count seven
Sabbaths ... from the feast of Firstfruits”;
they were to count, I quote, “from the day after” ‘the feast of
Firstfruits’, or, more correctly, I
quote, “from the day after the sabbath” which was the ‘sabbath’ and ‘Feast’-day
proper of the Passover, not the Sabbath of the week! How many times more must I
tell you this? The Passover’s ‘sabbath’ could fall on any day of the week. It
is clear from the Bible, and it is clear from Old Testament Jewish tradition.
There is no shred of evidence to the contrary. How many times have I challenged
people like you to present just one case in favour of your pet theory? And I
don’t use the words ‘no shred of evidence’ with the same apathetic nonchalance
some of the great thinkers on this forum do.
“This feast
commemorated the giving of the Law to Moses on
“And they took their journey from
Elim … and came unto the wilderness of Sin … on the fifteenth day of the second month … And the whole
congregation murmured …16:1-3
Then said the Lord … I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people
shall go out and gather a certain (“daily”) rate (“of”) every day 4… On the sixth day they shall prepare … twice as much as they gather daily … Toward evening (today, the first day of
the six days) ye shall know that the LORD hath brought you out from the
Why is the redemption from
Day Sabbath. The date of the 15th of the Second Month is
given. The following days are “every day” numbered till “the Seventh” which is
the Sabbath falling on the 21st. Counting back, the 16th of the First Month
(Abib or Nisan) fell on the Seventh Day
Sabbath. On “this day” (see the scheme above)
|
FIRST DAY Sunday |
SECOND DAY
Monday |
THIRD DAY Tuesday |
FOURTH DAY
Wednesday |
FIFTH DAY Thursday |
SIXTH DAY Friday |
SEVENTH DAY SABBATH |
|
|
|
|
|
|
1 |
2 |
|
3 |
4 |
5 |
6 |
7 |
8 |
9 |
|
10 |
11 |
12 |
13 |
14 |
15 |
16 |
|
17 |
18 |
19 |
20 |
21 |
22 |
23 |
|
24 |
25 |
26 |
27 |
28 |
29 |
30 |
|
1 |
2 |
3 |
4 |
5 |
6 |
7 |
|
8 |
9 |
10 |
11 |
12 |
13 |
14 |
|
15 |
16 |
17 |
18 |
19 |
20 |
21 |
Now extend this calendar
to Shavuot 5 with 30 days months, and Shavuot 5 falls on the (weekly) Sabbath.
About Tradition it may be
said, refer ---
Appendix to Part 3 / 1, page 2 –
Pentecost – “Fiftieth Day” – Lightfoot
FORTY AND TEN DAYS TO PENTECOST
Quote from
‘The Arachim Torah Journal’, which again
quotes from the Passover Haggadah, as follows:
“If God had brought us to
The question is: WHY could the Jews be so
satisfied even though had they NOT received the LAW?
It seems the Jews live more by faith than
the Christians! But not so: “... if we had not received the gift of the Torah
from the Almighty ... (w)e would have settled for the massive national assembly
... even without the crowning Revelation.”
I shall try to show that according to the
selfsame Torah, it is because that on Mount Sinai and ON THE DAY OF PENTECOST
(Shavuot), God showed HIMSELF to them, even BEFORE He only TWO DAYS AFTER, gave
them the Covenant of Ten Commandments. According to God’s one and eternal
Covenant of Grace, MERCY ALWAYS COMES BEFORE THE LAW, AND GRACE IS ENOUGH!
This finding is perfectly reflected in the
New Testament in the Sermon to the Hebrew Christians the twelfth chapter from
the eighteenth verse to the last of that chapter, and especially the last two
verses of it. And it mainly shows that what descended upon the mountain, and
from it upon the People, was God through his Holy Spirit.
Jesus ascended into the heavens on the
fortieth day after his resurrection from the dead, which was the Passover Feast
Day of First Sheaf Wave Offering. Ten days remained to Pentecost. Then, “When
Pentecost was FULLY COME”, the Holy Spirit was “poured out” upon the WAITING
BELIEVERS.
Now it says in Exodus 19:1, “In the third
month, when the children of
In the 11th and 15th verses it says: “Be
ready against the third day” or, “be ready FOR the third day”. “For (on) the
third day the LORD will come down upon mount Sinai in the sight of all the
People.” (11b)
God gave the People the FULFILMENT OF THIS
PROMISE exactly so, according to verses 18 and 19. This is what the Preacher to
the Hebrew Christian tells us of in Hebrews 12 above referred to.
How did we get to this “THIRD” day from
the first day of the third month? It is clear and easy:
ON THE FIRST DAY “in the third month”,
“And Moses went up ... “, verse 3, “and
Moses came (down) ...”, verse 7, “and all the People answered ...”. That makes
up DAY TWO of the month Sivan.
THE THIRD DAY of Sivan: “And the Lord said
unto Moses ...” - for which reason Moses had to have ascended the mountain a
second time. “... Moses (now) returned /
told to the LORD what the People had said (the previous day)”, 8b, 9b. “Go to
the People”, 10b”... and Moses went down (the second time) ...” (verse 14). “Then
the LORD said unto Moses, Go to the People, and sanctify them TODAY (3 Sivan),
AND, TOMORROW (4 Sivan):
for the THIRD day (5 Sivan) the LORD will
come down IN THE SIGHT OF ALL THE PEOPLE ... IN A THICK CLOUD (verse 9) ... And
it came to pass on the third day in the morning ...” (16).
The remainder of this day is recorded up
to verse 20A: “And the LORD came down upon mount Sinai on the top of the mount”
... Not a word about the Law being given! Compare Hebrews 12 the last two
verses!
THIS, FIVE Sivan, is in fact the FIFTIETH
DAY counted from 16 Nisan, and is the day of the outpouring of God’s Holy
Spirit, that is, the pouring out of Himself in Power of his Mercy!
From verse 20B, the NEXT DAY’S events are
recorded, counted to the same measure of the previous days’ counting: To the
measure of Moses’ going up to, and coming down from, the mountain:
Ex.19:20B:
6 Sivan: “And the LORD called Moses up to the top of the mount; and
Moses went up ...
Verse 24A: “And the LORD said unto him
(Moses), Away, get thee down ...”.
This, 6 Sivan, is the fifty FIRST day
after 16 Nisan.
Verse 24B and 25: Then on SEVEN SIVAN, and
the fifty SECOND day after First Sheaf Wave offering, TWO DAYS AFTER PENTECOST,
CAME THE LAW (by the witness of two, according to the Law – “Aaron with thee”)!
This, 7 Sivan, is NOT Shavuot - the
Fiftieth Day or “Pentecost”! The “counting” of the “Shavu’os” has stopped two
days ago already. (Says Rabbi Shlomo Riskin, “... (C)ounting is a significant
aspect of Shavuot, notes the illustrious Rav Samson Raphael Hirsch ...”.) The
giving of the Law is no part of the giving of Grace.
Despite, Rabbi Shlomo Riskin observes: 7
Sivan is the day “... the Midrash insists that the giving of the Torah on mount
Sinai took place on the Sabbath!”
All the confusion because the Day of
Pentecost and Day of God’s Gift of HIMSELF, is identified with the day of the
Law’s giving!
Derivation of 5 Sivan on the Sabbath:
Accept that the Midrash as far as the date
of 7 Sivan is concerned – for the giving of the Law
and not of the Holy Spirit (God’s descent in “thick cloud”) – is
correct, then 5 Sivan was the day of the Holy Spirit’s
descent or outpouring.
Accept that the Midrash is correct as far
as the notable day of event is concerned – that it was the Sabbath
–, then the Sabbath was the day of the Holy Spirit’s descent or
outpouring.
Yerachmiel Tilles of Ascent Seminars, “Countdown
to Shavuot”: “The first Shavuot took place on Shabbat, fifty days after the
Exodus from
Nevertheless it would be more reasonable to
expect the particular day of the week would have been ‘remembered’ correctly
rather than the date of its occurrence – seeing it was the Sabbath and the
event that gave the Sabbath so much meaning. Also the proneness of human nature
to confuse the fruit for the tree – to confuse the Commandment for the Gift (of
the Holy Spirit) – makes it more likely the Midrash mistakes the Event rather
than the Day. The Midrash delivers the Sabbath correctly but it mistakes the
giving of the Law for the giving of the Holy Spirit on the Sabbath.
GE
I quote Samuel Owen who quoted from “a lot of
research on this, including (his) own” --- “This feast commemorated the giving of the Law to Moses on
Dear Samuel Owen, as you
can see from my critique above, the Jewish tradition is mistaken in that it
places “the giving of the Law to Moses on
I quote Samuel Owen who quoted, “Feast of
Trumpets: [Lev. 23:23-25] God commanded
Read my studies, ‘Die Sewende Dag is die Sabbat’, and
Paragraph 7.1.1.6.1.
7.1.1.6.1.1.
Prof. Bacchiocchi draws attention to the significance of the
sounding of the trumpet for the Sabbath Day by referring to the trumpet
of the Year of Jubilee. “A Messianic feature of the Sabbath years can be seen in the trumpet blast
by means of a ram’s horn (yobel –
from which derives the term “jubilee”).”
Bacchiocchi refers to Julian Morgenstern who “maintains that “in all likelihood the ‘great trumpet’ (Is.27:13),
a blast from which would inaugurate a new and happier era for conquered and
dispersed
From
reading chapter 25 of Leviticus it becomes clear that the trumpet is named
after the Year of Jubilee, and not the
Year after the trumpet. The Year
as such is called the “Jubilee”, verses 10 et al, and not the trumpet itself.
The verse Bacchiocchi refers to, 25,
twice mentions “the trumpet of
Jubilee” as the shophar. According to Joshua 6:4 the shophar was a
trumpet of “ram’s horn”, used at the
invasion of
The
trumpet, “blown” as yobel (“judgement”),
is mentioned on only two occasions in
the Bible, at the giving of the Law at Sinai, Ex.19:13 and at the invasion of Jericho, Joshua 6. The eventual invasion of
It
is the blowing that makes the trumpet and not the trumpet that makes the
blowing. The shophar is alternatively used with the same
meaning and for the same kind of purpose as the silver trumpets, chatsotserah. Silver trumpets (Nmb.10:2)
were blown for days dedicated to
worship: “And when they shall blow with trumpets all the assembly shall assemble themselves to
thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. … In the day of your gladness,
and in your solemn days, and in the
beginnings of your months, ye shall
blow with your trumpets; over your burnt offerings and over the sacrifices of
your peace offerings ye shall blow with your trumpets; that they may be to you
for a memorial before your God: I am the Lord your God”. Nmb.10:3, 10 Trumpets
were sounded for assembling, for alarm and for war. Nmb.10:3, 7; 5-6; 9 David played before
God when he moved the Ark while
silver trumpets were blown.1Chr.13-16 They were blown “when the
builders laid the foundation of the
temple of the Lord”; Esra 3:10
when the temple service was
re-organised; Neh.12:35 Psalm 98 mentions the blowing of the silver trumpets and is clearly
a “foreseeing” of the Christ-event as Peter proclaimed on the day of Pentecost. “Blow ye the trumpet in Ramah, cry
aloud”, Hosea 5:8, fulfilled in Mt.2:18,
the slaying of infants, “In Rama was
there a voice heard, and weeping and great mourning.” Zephaniah describes “The great day of the Lord”, when Christ
will return, as when the trumpet shall be heard. 1:16
7.1.1.6.1.2.
Very significant in this regard is the fact that the silver trumpets were used
when the idolatrous reign of
Athaliah was ended by coup – on the
Sabbath Day! 2Kings11-12
The
Fiftieth Year or Year of Jubilee
is correctly associated with the Great Day of Atonement-”Sabbath” and with the sounding of the trumpet.
Josephus mentions the trumpet that signified the start and
the end of the Sabbath. Only the Sabbath of all single days, is ever associated with
the sounding of the trumpet. The
co-incidence of the yobel’s sounding for the beginning of
the “fiftieth year”, and the “sound from heaven as of a violent wind”
on the “fiftieth day” – the Day of the First Bread Wave Offering – is very meaningful. As at Sinai fifty days after entrance
into Promised land, the trumpet sounded at Pentecost fifty days after
Passover-Sabbath of Friday 15 Nisan 30 AD – on the weekly Sabbath!
The
Greek word used for the sounding of
the trumpet at “the mount (Sinai) that burnt with fire”, at
“blackness, darkness and tempest”, “at
the voice of words, which voice they
that heard intreated that the word should not
be spoken to them any more for they could
not endure …” (Hb.12:19-20), is the same word ehchos, used for the “sound
from heaven” that was heard at Pentecost
(Acts 2:2). Ehchos is used only four times in the New Testament. Hb.12:19-20 refers to the
events at
Now
in Joel it is commanded: “Blow
the trumpet in
The “blowing” of the “sound” of the
Joel-prophecy is fulfilled on Pentecost, Acts 2. Also
If
the sound heard (according to prophecy and promise) had been that of the Sabbath-trumpet, the Sabbath would
clearly fit the occasion of Pentecost,
Acts 2. Now in Isaiah 58 it is said, “Cry loud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and show my people their transgression, and
the house of Jacob their sins” (judgement), and in verse 13 one of
their sins is lifted out – desecration of the Sabbath! In chapter 66 the Sabbath is associated with the Feast of New Moon on which the trumpet was blown. The Sabbath-trumpet heard on Pentecost, like the trumpet sounded
at the dethronement of Athaliah and at the fall of
I quote Samuel Owen who quoted, “The Day of
Atonement: [Lev. 23:26-32] The Feast of Trumpets is followed by ten days called
by modern Jews, “the days of awe.” This is a time of national repentance for
On this I would advise you
to follow the word, ‘Pisidia’
through Book 3, all three parts. Really you will not regret, there is so much
about the Acts 13 event it’s unbelievable. For our concern here, see the
association and fulfilment of the Day of Atonement on this singular event with
... yes, as would be expected of course ... with the Sabbath Day! And from
there draw your own conclusions as to the significance these things have for
the Sabbath Day. Is it Biblical? Is the only question. You decide.
Quoting Samuel Owen who quoted, “The Feast of
Tabernacles: [Lev. 23:33-43] Five days after the Day of Atonement is the Feast
of Tabernacles. From the 15th to the 22nd of the seventh month was a time of
the greatest rejoicing. It was the festival of all festivals.
Is not the Feast of
Tabernacles the most sad and solemn of feasts? Does not its dwelling in
tabernacles of leaves remind the Church of its transitoriness, that they are
but sojourners in a strange country on trek to the land of promise? Oh the
Church that forget they are not that City which hath foundations whose builder
and maker is God, yet nor fully? With
whom was God grieved? Was it not with them that sinned and to whom God sware
that they should not enter into His
Rest— to them that believed not, but showed off their unbelief?
Does not the Feast of
Tabernacles stay the heart on the Suffering Servant of the LORD en route from
the manger to the cross esteeming the reproach of Messiah greater riches than
having been found in the form of God? Don’t we –can’t we– see Jesus in the
Feast of Tabernacles, the Risen Crucified? How shall I sing the LORD’s song in
a strange land if I forget Thee, o Jesus? “Yea, they shall sing in the ways of
the LORD: for great is the glory of the LORD. Though the LORD be high, yet hath
He respect unto the lowly; but the proud He knoweth afar off. Though I walk in
the midst of trouble, Thou wilt revive me: (Read, Christ!) Thou shalt stretch
forth thine hand against the wrath of mine enemies, and thy right hand shall
save me. The LORD will perfect that which concerneth me: Thy Mercy O LORD, Thou
for ever perfect; forsake not the Works of thine own hands.” (Ps137, 138)
What do, the Jews know of
the Feast of Tabernacles? Poor souls; they know nothing! But we, the Christian
Community? ... but I, who know neither
to sing or dance to heart’s aches or joys? Do you see how they throw on the
pavement the palm leaves they waved so high? Do you see the First Sheaf Waved
Before the LORD? Here is the Message of Tabernacles, “O wretched man that I am!
Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God: through Jesus Christ
our Lord!”
May we now have a look at
the real meaning of the Jewish ‘Channukah’? I quote Samuel Owen who quoted, “There is another
day that is celebrated by
John 10:22-23
22 And it was at
23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon’s porch. (KJV)
That Channukah is always 75 days after The Day of Atonement may be related to
an interesting prophecy in Daniel.
Dan 12:12
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and
five and thirty days.
(KJV)
1,335 days is exactly 75 days more than the 1260 days that Antichrist will
reign. So, if the Antichrist is destroyed on the Day of Atonement, then the
extra 75 days lands us directly on the first day of Channukah. It seems likely
this has to do with the rededication of the
Let me first say I don’t
see sense in the time-setting. What’s the use of it? And what’s “the
“Channukah ... is
a celebration of the cleansing of the
The ‘old’ cleansing of the
temple received the new appellation of ‘Channukah’
and the individual status as a feast “after the Jews defeated Antiochus
Epiphanius” and they “set about to
cleanse the
Thought that was remarkable?
You shall see even greater things!
Now read John 10:22, but
don’t go further like you did, reading verse 23 together with 22; go back, and read the whole section concluded with verse 22! Don’t read as were this verse the
introduction to the verses that follow – it is not. Ignore the paragraph
indication in front of this verse; it should come after it. Because this verse
22 is the ending, the peroration, in
fact, the key, to the foregoing
passage that extends from chapter 9 through to 10:22. Nowhere in between the
beginning of chapter 9 and 10:22 is any sign that the episode that took place
and was accordingly recorded, was interrupted with another day or any other
period of time. This, John 9:1 to
10:22, was the Feast of the Cleansing and Dedication of the
Most remarkable is Jesus’ calling Himself the Door into the sheepfold — ‘sheepfold’ for ‘sanctuary’, place of
safety and rest — on this occasion! Mark
how Jesus elaborates on the goings in and goings out into and out of the
sheepfold and the evidences of Sabbath’s
involvement e.g. in Ez46:12, 17,
45:30c; then compare Ezekiel 43 to
46, e.g., verses like 43:4, 44:5, 46:1. But just look at the idea of holy convocation, ‘Church’, in verses
like 46:3 and 44:24 and then read Lamentations 2:16 and 1:10, keeping in mind
those godless, temple-polluting kings.
“Mark!” and see, the evidence of Nisan 16
First Sheaf Wave Offering Before the LORD in 45:22, “And upon that day”,
implying, actually intending, ‘upon’ in sequence, that is, ‘after’ the First
Month its fourteenth day, its fifteenth day, day of Unleavened Bread Feast, and
“upon / after that day” its fifteenth day, “seven days” of unleavened bread;
then ‘after / upon’ – intended - the sixteenth day of the First Month— “The day
after the sabbath from the day that ye brought the sheaf”, Lv23:15. “Now when
the prince shall prepare a voluntary burnt offering or peace offerings
voluntarily (“He offered up Himself”, Hb7:27c.) unto the Lord, shall then open (to) him the gate ... then He shall go forth”, Ez46:12, truly
signifying the First Sheaf Waved Before the LORD in resurrection from the dead!
Which all is the “Cleansing of the Sanctuary”, “finished” on Nisan 16, according to 2Chr29, no doubt, in my mind, in Jesus Christ, through Jesus Christ,
once for all, “In Sabbath’s fullness in the being light of Sabbath’s inclining towards the First Day of the week”—
Mt28:1.
You show me anything vaguely the like with regard to the First Day
of the week and you might blame me for not listening!
Samuel Owen:
""In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day
of the week"
This is what it says in all of my KJV versions. As it began to dawn towards;
would indicate it was the eve of the first DAY, (night of the first
day.) "
GE:
Correct: "As it began to dawn towards; would indicate it was the eve of
the first DAY"!;
WRONG: "(night of the first day.)"!
Collins: "eve" / "even" - "The evening or day before
..."; "evening" -"the latter part of the day ...".
'Evening' developed a modern meaning to indicate the first part of night. That
is STILL, miles apart from the next 'morning'!
But read what you have said YOURSELF!: "In the end OF the sabbath,
as it began to dawn TO-wards the first day of the week".
'Dawn': When was the 'dawn' of the twenty first century? It was the last part of
the twentieth century? Of course it was! 'Dawn' as the part of night BEFORE
sunrise, that is 'dawn' of the light-day. That does not correlate with the
indifferent division of the 'Bible-day'. The 'Bible-day' begins with sunset,
and therefore the dawn of the 24-hour-night-and-daylight-day of
Bible-reckoning, is the last part of the day before it, which is the afternoon
- the after 12 pm to sunset part - of the previous day.
You will find
other - and older - translations that render, "On the Sabbath!, and "before
/ towards the First Day". Like the KJV they LITERALLY render the Greek,
which is, "opse de sabbahtohn tehi epifohskousehi eis mian (hehmeran)
sabbaton". Literally: "In the Sabbath's fulness in its being midst of
being light having inclined towards the first day". Yes those 'extra' two
words, 'having inclined', are literally implied in the precise Greek of the
preposition 'epi', which also means, 'in', like 'in the epicentre' of an
earthquake. I have often on this board dealt on the subject. No one could
refute me so far.
But, I would
like to go on with some comments on that article you gave us.
I quote Samuel Owen who quoted from “a lot of research on
this, including (his) own” --- “This feast commemorated
the giving of the Law to Moses on
Dear Samuel Owen, as you can see from my critique above, the Jewish tradition
is mistaken in that it places “the giving of the Law to Moses
on
I quote Samuel Owen, “The Bible states
plainly! the first day of the week was the resurrection, to say otherwise
discredits Gods word, and that is no small thing.”
God does not
lie; we shall not lie. The Scriptures
are the Written Word of God. Basic Protestant Christianity.
What you say is not new to me. I had to contend with such arguments with
myself, from the beginning of my taking things seriously -- in order to make my
Christian life and confession and faith to agree; not to live a hypocrite and
coward. With myself I have had this warfare. It is easy to say the very true
things you have said where you spoke the truth. But that verily is what makes
it impossible to live in peace and harmony with the lie and the love of the
world.
What rattled me most after the things of my own heart, was the fearless
arrogance of Christians who claim to believe these same, and precious
soul-saving truths. In straight talk: They say they believe in God and they
believe his Word, but the moment they are confronted with something that points
their way as in the wrong, don't think they will admit, repent and make good
and do right. No, they will rather violate the Scriptures. There is no easier
recipe. I have said it before, I rather become a Roman Catholic and renounce
the Scriptures in all than mutilate it and boast my Christianity. It is the
most abhorrent idea to me.
Now I tell you, Samuel Owen and whosoever else, like Dolla, If the oldest
Translation translated "In the Sabbath" and "towards the First
Day", and the 'New' oldest 'translation' - NKJV, comes and changes that to
"After the Sabbath" and "on the First Day", then is it you
get arrogance that defies God the Author of the Written Word of God.
Yes, the 'Version' you are reading, may tell you, ‘The Bible states
plainly! the first day of the week was the resurrection’. Well I say to you, to say,
discredits Gods word, and that is no small thing.
And so I can go on and show you one by one how the Bible has been mutilated
with one purpose IN MIND of the 'translators' and 'editors': The predetermined
objective to destroy the TRUTH of God's Word and, for the sake of the false god
of Sunday-worship. I can go on and show you one by one how these texts are
changed and shaped to suit this only objective. That is no small thing.
Take Lightfoot above - but he did not change the Scriptures! at least.
The only 'critique' such Christianity is able to lodge, is perfectly being illustrated
by some observers on this discussion. I say to those users of nonsensical
adjectives and insulting nouns, you should be ashamed of yourself. A
Christianity that stands or falls with the belief of a First Day Resurrection
is a false Christianity. I say again, then I rather join the ranks of Roman
Catholicism. But God help me, I would rather die.
Samuel Owen
"In
the Sabbath" and "towards the First Day" -- Which translation is
this from? It’s certainly not from the KJV.
"In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first
day of the week"; This is what it says in all of my KJV versions.
As it began to dawn towards; would indicate it was the eve of the
first DAY, (night of the first day.) Jesus’ final night, completing the
three nights. Had his resurrection delayed until the light of the first day,
this would have been counted as four days, not three.
I have hammered this around enough, I just wanted to clear up what the KJV
translation said.
GE
You
have, and you did not, “clear up what the KJV translation said”.
This
is how you did clear up what it says,
“As it began to
dawn towards; would indicate it was the eve of the first DAY, (night of
the first day)...”
And this is how you have again confused everything: “Jesus’ final
night, completing the three nights ... Had his resurrection delayed until the
light of the first day, this would have been counted as four days, not three.”
Step
by step:
“As it began to
dawn towards would indicate it was the eve of the first DAY, (night of
the first day)...” Correct! A bit more by definition: ‘As it began to
dawn towards would indicate it was the eve of the First-Day in fact the
eve of the night of the First Day.’ (In
other words, the last part of the day before the First Day which part of the
Seventh Day is “the eve of the First-Day”), which First Day of
the week would begin after sunset and with the immediately following ‘evening-first-part-of-the-First-Day’.
‘Jesus’ final night, completing the three nights’, had
had been what we call, Friday night, the first half of the Sabbath Day. One
cannot divide one day of the Bible’s reckoning and count its two parts for two
separate days. Therefore, “as it began to dawn towards the First Day”— KJV— it
indicated it was the ‘eve’ or ‘dawn’ of both the First Day and, its night-beginning, ‘evening’. ... Delayed his resurrection until the First Day or just until its
night-beginning with sunset, this would have been counted as four days, not
three, irrespective.
Gerhard Ebersöhn
Private Bag 43
Sunninghill 2157