Resurrection not on a fourth day
by Gerhard Ebersöhn
(Antithesis pp 53/54)
Sabres (Died on Thursday; on Sabbath Resurrected)
Thursun (Thursday died; on Sunday rose)
Trad (Friday crucified; Sunday resurrected)
Wed (‘Messianic Christians’ – Crucified on Wednesday, raised on Sunday)
IN SABBATH’S-TIME BEFORE THE LORD
FOURTEEN ABIB FIRST FIRST DAY
PREPARE THE DAY OF PASSOVER!
BEGIN! REMOVE ALL LEAVEN!
TO THE END TO SACRIFICE THE LAMB!
FIFTEEN ABIB FIRST OF PASCHAL DAYS AGAIN
FEAST! REMEMBER! EAT!
UNLEAVENED BREAD’S ROASTED LUMP!
OUT FROM UNDER
TO FLAME TO ASH TO EARTH WITH THE REMAINS
SIXTEEN ABIB THIRD DAY ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES
YAHWEH’S PASSOVER CONSUMMATE!
FIRST OF WINTER HARVEST DAYS –
WAVE THE SHEAF – CLARION CALL TO SHAVUOT!
IN SABBATH’S TIME BEFORE THE LORD!
FIRST OF FIFTY TO THE DAY
LAST OF WINTER’S GROWTH,
TWO LOAVES WAVED – ONE THE BODY THAT IS CHRIST’S
IN SABBATH’S TIME BEFORE THE LORD!
Crucified on the day before Burial, and Resurrection on the
day after Burial, Friday, “The Preparation which is the
From the first to “the third day according to the Scriptures”. . .
Mk.14:12/17, Mt.26:17/20, Lk.22:7/14, Jn.13:1-17:26
“Evening” – Preparation for, and the Lord’s Supper
. . . the FIRSTday, 14
Nisan, “Preparation of the Passover”, Thursday, begins!
“Night” – Anguish, Betrayal, Denial
Mt.12:40, Mk.14:26-42, Jn.18:1-27
“Early” – Trial, Delivered, Way to Cross
Middle Day – Crucifixion, Mocking, Darkness,
Mk.15:25, 29, 33, Jn.19:23-29
Afternoon “The ninth hour”, – Died, Deserted
Mt.27:46, Jn.19:30, Lk.23:48
Jn.19:31-40, Mk.15:42, Mt.27:57, Lk.23:52
“Evening” – Jews; “after this”, Joseph
. . . the SECOND day, 15
Nisan, Passover Feast, “The Fore-Sabbath”, Friday, begins!
“Night” – Took the body down, prepared
Mk.15:42-46b, Mt.27:58-59, Lk.23:53a Jn.19:32-40
“Afternoon” – Buried
Mk.15:46c-47, Mt.27:60-61, Lk.23:53b-56b, Jn.19:41-42
“Began to rest”
. . . “the
THIRD day”, 16 Nisan, First Sheaf Wave Offering, “Sabbath”, begins !
“Morning” – Guard
“Afternoon” – Resurrected
Only Matthew 28:1-4
Only Mark 16:1
. . . the fourth day, 17 Nisan, Sunday, begins :
“The Sabbath past”
“Early darkness”, first sight of opened grave
Only John 20:1-2
“So shall the Son of Man have been in the heart of the earth for three days and for three nights” when raised from the dead “for a sign”! Matthew 12:40.
Spring – Winter Harvest
Nisan (First Month) Passover
Lamb slaughtered Crucifixion
Day of Removal of Leaven
15 Passover Sabbath Feast Lamb
First Day of Unleavened Bread………….Eaten
16 Day after Sabbath First Sheaf Wave Offer
“Day after Sabbath” of Passover
“The third day” of Passover; 2nd day of Unleavened Bread; first day of “Fifty Days”;
17 3rd day of Unleavened Bread
Fortieth Day Ascension
Fiftieth Day First
Bread Wave Offering
Apostolic Outpouring of Holy Spirit
Holy Spirit and Ecclesia……….Body of Christ
Tishri Day of Atonement
9 Preparation Tribes ordered Priests offer for self
Fulfilled in Israel
Atonement: Morning: Goat Slaughtered
Fulfilledin Christ’s Suffering, Humiliation, Death
High Priest Enters
Fulfilled in Christ’s Presentation, Ascending Trone and Exaltation
Afternoon: High Priest Returns
Fulfilled in Christ’s being “brought again from the dead”
Goat Sent into
Fulfilled in Life of Christ Raised, Presented, Exalted
The Death of Death in the Death of Christ
15 Feast of Trumpets
Fulfilled in, 1, Judgement, Sacrifice and Resurrection of Christ 2, in Pentecost
3, in Sabbaths’ Feast 4, in Christ’s Return
Feast of Tabernacles
Fulfilled in 1, Incarnation 2, Resurrection 3, Church 4, New Earth
Introductory Question Posed by Traditionalist (Trad)
Was Jesus raised on the first day of the week like the Scriptures say He did?
Theory: Crucified on Wednesday
Crucifixion happened on a Wednesday and not a Friday. It says He was taken off the cross before the sabbath began, but the sabbath that is referred to is the Sabbath of the passover feast, which was on a Thursday.
Where does it say ".... the Sabbath of the passover feast, which was on a Thursday"? It never says it! You take it from the air!
Where does it say ".... He was taken off the cross before the sabbath began"? It never says it! You take it from the air!
It says – Mk15:42, Mt27:57 – He was taken from the cross "After that it had been evening for quite a while already". The Greek, that is, and virtually exactly so translated in the KJV. Noticed how it has been changed in the newer 'Translations'? Why?
Then Luke 24 says Joseph closed the grave "While being afternoon the Sabbath nearing." Noticed nobody ever attempted to change this? But have you noticed how they changed the very same word for the very same time of the day in Mt28:1 the third phrase? Why?
Therefore, why must the body be taken down before sunset, while the Scriptures directly the opposite, instructed the body of a cursed should not “hang on the pole all night”, but must be removed from the pole “before sunrise-light-of-morning” and “that same day must be buried”? (Dt21:23) (See my study on this subject, ‘Taken Down Before Sunrise’, appended.)
Each and every argument against the Wednesday crucifixion theory somehow or other is an argument against the Friday crucifixion Sunday resurrection tradition. In essence they are identical – both consist of but fallacy.
Resurrection on Fourth Day
The Wednesday crucifixion theory implicates a fourth “day”: Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday = four days!
The complication from another angle:
Day One: Fourth Day (Wednesday) First of “three days”: Crucifixion.
14 Nisan. “Buried before sunset.” Day ends: “Sunset”.
Day Two: The Fifth Day (Thursday) 1st of “three nights” …and the 1st “day”.
15 Nisan. Day ends: “Sunset”.
Day Three: The Sixth Day (Friday) 2nd of “three nights” … and the 2nd “day”.
16 Nisan. Day ends: “Sunset”.
Day Four: The Sabbath (Saturday) 3rd of “three nights” … and the 3rd “day”.
17 Nisan. “Resurrection just before Sunset”.
1, According to the Wednesday crucifixion theory, Wednesday all day, crucifixion, death, and, entombment, occur and are finished, “before sunset”.
2, According to the Wednesday crucifixion theory, from entombment
3, counting of the “three days and three nights”, starts and not from death.
4, According to the Wednesday crucifixion theory, the first “night” of the “three days and three nights” follows from after sunset.
5, According to the Wednesday crucifixion theory, reckoning of Day begins “from sunset”.
6, According to the Wednesday crucifixion theory, “from sunset Wednesday”, Thursday begins … the second day!
Clearly something, already, is awry!
According to the Wednesday crucifixion theory Thursday night and Friday day together make a day the Sixth Day of the week the third day of the “three days and three nights”. Only two nights, and we already have three days! Jesus was not resurrected on Friday! Friday night and Saturday day together makes a day the Sabbath Day the fourth day of the “three days and three nights”. But if Saturday had been the day of Resurrection, it could not have
been the fourth day! Saturday should have been the third day. Crucifixion should have been on Thursday!
If this fact of a fourth day, rule out the Wednesday crucifixion theory, it just as effectively rule out the Thursday crucifixion theory that places the Resurrection on a fourth day, 17 Nisan.
The question is whether the “three days and three nights” are involved in the sense of one period or whether “three days and three nights”, are what they are, the “three days” of prophetic Scriptures!
All of these theories call on John 11:9, “Are there not twelve hours in a day?” If it has to be the full number of hours, by principle it should also be the full number of minutes and seconds. Then the resurrection occurs where it cannot, where there is no time to occur. They cannot say Jesus rose “on”, or, “in” the third day because “after the third day”, must be taken for “literal” and its idiomatic force be ignored. The result: “After the third day” should mean more than 72 hours, which should make the resurrection “on the fourth day”. And so one could go on and on.
Now the Wednesday crucifixion theory maintains the resurrection occurred “after 72 hours from sunset Wednesday”. The day being reckoned from sunset to sunset – which the Wednesday crucifixion theory accepts – resurrection occurs on Sunday, Saturday night being the First Day. The Wednesday crucifixion theory in effect places the resurrection on the fifth, and not, on “the third day”.
Considered separate entities of “days” and “nights”, the “three days and three nights” on and within the three calendar days of Jesus’ crucifixion, entombment and resurrection from the dead, agree with the historic events of the Passover. Three days occurred and are to be considered according to the principle the part represents the whole. “The third day”, especially, was not a full day of twenty-four hours. The resurrection occurred in but an instant and as such represents the third day as “the third day”. The resurrection besides occurred considerable time before sunset and approximately three quarters of that day are considered “the third day according to the Scriptures” fully and unreservedly.
The day Jesus was buried was Friday without a doubt as we have shown many times. Mark 15:42 in parallel with 16:1 is the clearest and most definitive Scripture in this respect. Also John 19:31 in parallel with 42, Luke 23:54 in parallel with 56 and Matthew 27:62 in parallel with 28:1 leave no doubt that Friday was the day of the week of Jesus’ burial. It could not have been circumscribed and identified any better, with more or better detail or in simpler and
clearer language. In just as simple and unambiguous language though is it also stated that before Joseph buried the body and after it still hung on the cross, “the evening had come”, which, together with many other factors, make of the day of interment the day after, crucifixion.
Then, again with just as simple and unambiguous language (unfortunately manipulated through translation) Matthew 28:1 states that the resurrection occurred on the Sabbath, the day after, interment. Which gives us “the third day”, and, “three days”, and, “three days and three nights” considering the significance of Gethsémané night, without any difficulty or confusion. Together, the first “night” (Wednesday night) – Gethsémané , and the first “day” (Thursday day) – crucifixion and death, and forsaking by all, constitute the first day of the “three days” “according to the Scriptures”. Then “came evening”, the second day of the “three days” beginning. (Thursday) The second “night”, Passover Feast Meal, “Being the Preparation, the Jews demanded of Pilate … After this, Joseph went in to Pilate”, the body granted, taken down, removed, prepared. The “day” saw the women following after to the grave and Joseph eventually closing the grave and all returning to prepare for the Sabbath – “day declining towards the First Day of the week” <epefohsken sabbaton>.
“Started the women to rest” the third day of the “three days” began – so the third “night”. “Come morning” and “day” the third, Mt.27:62, the Jews and Pilate, the grave sealed and guarded. “The third day”, “In the Sabbath’s fullness being afternoon”, saw the angel descend, and roll away the stone— “the day after the sabbath” of Passover, thou shalt wave First Sheaf before the LORD”; “In the sixteenth of the First Month they made an end … to cleanse … the Inner Part (‘Most Holy’) of the house of the LORD … They brought forth the he goats for the sin offering before the king and the congregation … They made reconciliation with their blood upon the altar to make an atonement for all Israel: for the king commanded … The Song of the LORD began with trumpets … and all the Congregation worshipped … when they had made an end of offering the king and all that were present with him, bowed themselves and worshipped.” 2Chr29.
I say this before, because the Wednesday Crucifixion Theory will not be our topic, and must please be referred to as little as possible.
“Sabbath ... sixteenth of the First Month ...” Your sources must be flawed. Day of First Fruits is always the First day of the Week. ( Lev 23:11-12), it was the next day after the Sabbath, not the Sabbath.
“... it was the next day after the Sabbath”, Wrong! “The day after the sabbath (of Passover)— not “next” day after the (Passover-)Sabbath. “Day after the sabbath”, “the sabbath” being ‘sabbath’ of Passover Nisan 15, “the day after” would be Nisan 16— not Nisan 17, not “the next day after the Sabbath”. So, sorry, really, your sources must be flawed!
In fact, you don’t have sources at all! I dare you present me one ‘source’! Day of First Sheaf is on any day of the week and it was “the (first) day after the 'sabbath'”— not the Sabbath of the week, but the 'sabbath'-day Nisan 15 that came after "The Day of Preparation Of The Passover" Jn19:14, Nisan 14. Your view is 'based' upon the so-called but un-demonstrate-able 'Saddusaic'-view ( Lev 23:11-12), an opportunistic manipulation of the Passover-dating that originated centuries AD. I have challenged many scholars to present but a single authentic 'Saddusaic' illustration of the 'always after the weekly Sabbath'-idea of the Day of First Sheaf Wave Offering. Allow me to supply you this little information surer than the Laws of Newton: It does not exist in the Scriptures; and it did not exist before those Jews deep into the Christian era have made mention of it!
Allow the Scriptures to speak for themselves, and there's NO discrepancy or difficulty in the chronological sequence the Scriptures create and follow!
With all respect, Matt. 12:39-40 and Lev. 23. Let the Scriptures speak for itself, in its own context, and not attempt to read into it what we may wish to see. This was written by Moses, who was quoting a pretty good source, I think.
And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the children of
of the LORD, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, these are
3 ‘Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
Passover and Unleavened Bread
4 ‘These are the feasts of the LORD, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at
appointed times. 5 On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is
the LORD’s Passover. 6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the
Feast of Unleavened Bread to the LORD; seven days you must eat unleavened
bread. 7 On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no
customary work on it. 8 But you shall offer an offering made by fire to the
LORD for seven days. The seventh day shall be a holy convocation; you
shall do no customary work on it.’”
The Feast of Firstfruits
9 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 10 “Speak to the children of
statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
Feast of Weeks
15 ‘And you shall count for yourselves from the day after the Sabbath, from the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering: seven Sabbaths shall be completed. 16 Count fifty days to the day after the seventh Sabbath; then you shall offer a new grain offering to the LORD. 17 You shall bring from your dwellings two wave loaves of two-tenths of an ephah. They shall be of fine flour; they shall be baked with leaven. They are the firstfruits to the LORD. 18 And you shall offer with the bread seven lambs of the first year, without blemish, one young bull, and two rams. They shall be as a burnt offering to the LORD, with their grain offering and their drink offerings, an offering made by fire for a sweet aroma to the LORD. 19 Then you shall sacrifice one kid of the goats as a sin offering, and two male lambs of the first year as a sacrifice of a peace offering. 20 The priest shall wave them with the bread of the firstfruits as a wave offering before the LORD, with the two lambs. They shall be holy to the LORD for the priest. 21 And you shall proclaim on the same day that it is a holy convocation to you. You shall do no customary work on it. It shall be a statute forever in all your dwellings throughout your generations. 22 ‘When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not wholly reap the corners of your field when you reap, nor shall you gather any gleaning from your harvest. You shall leave them for the poor and for the stranger: I am the LORD your God.’”
The Feast of Trumpets
23 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 24 “Speak to the children of
offering made by fire to the LORD.’”(Lev. 23:1-23 - NKJV)
I could have quoted the whole chapter, but this will suffice to show a couple of things. There were multiple "feast days" referred to as a "Sabbath", and they all are called "holy convocations" with attendant 'restrictions' incumbent upon them. There are some that are referred to as "holy convocations", but not specifically described as "Sabbath" but that seems to be the gist, even so, as an example, 15 Nisan (Abib) or "Firstfruits", which I believe to be identical with the "High day", named in John 19:31. All "Sabbaths" were holy convocations; why was it necessary to designate this particular one (15 Nisan) as "a High day", if not for the first feast day of "unleavened bread"? (Lev. 23:6-7)
Hold on! “... as an example, 15 Nisan (Abib) or "Firstfruits", which I believe to be identical with the "High day", named in John 19:31”? “...15 Nisan (Abib) or "Firstfruits"...”? “15 Nisan”, “Firstfruits”? No! You obviously are confusing “the first feast day of "unleavened bread"” for “Firstfruits”— a grave mistake!
If you say, “Nisan (Abib)”, you say Passover’s ‘firstfruits’, which was “First Sheaf Wave Offering”. This ‘firstfruits’ “sheaf before the LORD” of Passover, “the priest shall wave on the day after the Sabbath”. Which day was the Passover’s ‘sabbath’? You told us, I quote you, “this particular one (of) "Sabbaths" ... 15 Nisan ... as "a High day"”! The Passover’s ‘sabbath’ was Nisan 15. Now then this Passover’s ‘firstfruits’ Sheaf Wave Offering before the LORD, “the priest shall wave”, this Scripture tells us, “on the day after the Sabbath”! Therefore, the day of First Sheaf Wave Offering was not Nisan 15, but “the day after” Nisan 15, namely, Nisan 16. Not, as our friend just now alleged, “Day of First Fruits ... was the next day after the Sabbath” which is Nisan 17, and also, not as you have said, “15 Nisan (Abib) or "Firstfruits"”. It wasn’t either, but, Day of
First Fruits ... was “on the day after the Sabbath” of Passover 15 Nisan, which makes Day of First Fruits First Sheaf Wave Offering, 16 Nisan!
Therefore, your generalisation, “There are some ("Sabbaths") that are referred to as "holy convocations", but not specifically described as "Sabbath" but that seems to be the gist, even so, as an example, 15 Nisan”, is totally unwarranted and presumptuous. The actual state of affairs is that there are some ‘Feasts’ or ‘Holy Convocations’, that are referred to as ‘sabbaths’, but are not specifically described as “the Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD” and are infinitely far removed from the gist of “the Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD”, even so, as an example, 15 Nisan, first day of Passover of eating unleavened bread. How cunningly have you confused truth and error in defence of your error!
All "Sabbaths" were holy convocations; why was it necessary to designate this particular one (15 Nisan) as "a High day", if not for the first feast day of "unleavened bread"? (Lev. 23:6-7)
As I have said, your presumption is wilful deceit. Nevertheless I’ll explain,
(1) Because “the first feast day of (eating) "unleavened bread"” was not the day of waving of the First Sheaf, but was the so called “sabbath” of Passover, Nisan 15, and first day of having eaten unleavened bread, while, having been second day of Passover as such after Passover’s Preparation-day, Nissan 14.
(2) ‘Day of First Sheaf’ was “the day after (this) sabbath” of Nisan 15. Since the first day for eating unleavened bread was Nisan 15 and was called a ‘sabbath’, “the day after the sabbath” was the second day of having eaten unleavened bread. ‘Day of First Sheaf’ was advertently reckoned Nisan 16, and meaningfully recorded, in 2Chr29:17. So second day of Unleavened Bread Feast coincided with, and was, the day of First Sheaf.
(3) This very day of First Sheaf Wave Offering Before the LORD Nisan 16, was the first of fifty days counted until Pentecost. Nisan
16 was in fact and truth “the third day according to the Scriptures” so often encountered in the New Testament Scriptures for having been the day of the resurrection of Christ from the dead. It was not a ‘feast-sabbath’, or, the ‘weekly’ Sabbath but by coincidence, which coincidence never happened per accident, but, especially in the instance of Christ’s resurrection, happened “according to the Scriptures” according to the predestination of our Almighty God and Saviour.
Also, two 'feast days were specifically not said to be "holy convocations", namely Passover [14 Nisan, "when the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed" "between the evenings" (Lk. 22:7 - HCSB; Lev. 23:5, Num. 9:3 - YLT)] and 'firstfruits', normally, apparently observed, as another has noted, 16 Nisan.
Yet again, wrong! Despite the fact it was no ‘sabbath’, Passover 14 Nisan, “when the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed” “between the evenings”, in fact “the first day” of the Passover Season as a whole, is in Ex12:16 expressly called a ‘holy convocation’. But in no later book of the Old Testament is it ever again designated a ‘holy convocation’.
However, two 'feast days were specifically not said to be "holy convocations", namely Passover [14 Nisan, "when the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed" "between the evenings" (Lk. 22:7 - HCSB; Lev. 23:5, Num. 9:3 - YLT)] and 'firstfruits', normally, apparently observed, as another has noted, 16 Nisan. The text does not give this specific date, but merely references it as "after the sabbath". It is not 'on a sabbath', hence ruling out its occurring on the 'seventh day sabbath', as well as any other 'Sabbath'. (Emphasis Sabres.)
Objection! Have you not noticed, ‘the text’ – correctly – says, “He shall wave the sheaf … on the day after the sabbath (11) … Count from the day after the Sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of
the wave offering.” How could you insert another day in between the day the sheaf was waved and (according to ‘the text’) the very next day counted day one of fifty days? How? Only in Lv23, ‘the text’ three times, 11, 15-16, gives the specific date! Rather, you draw a false corollary and a false deduction— yours in every respect, is a distraction from the truth! Collins defines ‘distraction’, “mental turmoil or madness”.
Since you yourself very well knew the ‘sabbath’ of Passover was Nisan 15, I cannot see you are not able to count one further day to Nisan 16 for First Sheaf. “... the text does not give this specific date, but merely references it as "after the sabbath"”— Anyone can clearly see you ‘merely’ imply First Sheaf could come any number of days “after the sabbath”, and not necessarily on the day directly after the sabbath of Passover, which is an unwarranted preclusion because ‘the text’ expressly ‘gives this specific date’: “The day after the Sabbath” of the Passover!
The fact, “... the text does not give this specific date, but merely references it as "after the sabbath"”, and the fact, “... It is not” by rule, “'on a sabbath'”, cannot “hence rul(e) out ... its occurring on the 'seventh day sabbath', as well as any other 'Sabbath'”. The fact the text does not give the specific date of Nisan 16, but ‘merely references it as "after the sabbath" of the Passover; and the fact it is not by rule on a sabbath, can only rule out its being as such the Seventh Day Sabbath or for that matter any other ‘sabbath’ per se. But it does not ‘rule out’ ‘its occurring’ on the 'Seventh Day Sabbath', or, on any other 'sabbath'!
Lv23:20, “The bread of the firstfruits as a wave offering before the LORD ... you shall proclaim on the same day that it is a holy convocation to you. You shall do no customary work on it.” Despite it is not said of First Sheaf of Passover that it was a day of “holy convocation”, it of Shavuot (‘Pentecost’), is said, and ‘hence’ both— since they are fifty days apart and always fell on the same day of the week —both, despite your ‘rule’, “All "Sabbaths" were holy convocations”— could land on the weekly Sabbath. There was nothing that prevented First Sheaf to fall on the weekly, or any, ‘sabbath’. And nothing, since it happened according to the predestination of God, could prevent that one instance of First Sheaf coinciding with Jesus’ resurrection “the day after the sabbath”
of Passover of the year of his Crucifixion, to have occurred on the Sabbath Day of the LORD, the ‘weekly’ Sabbath. Least of anything some imagined ‘law’ that prohibited ‘work’ and ‘travel’ further than a Sabbath’s journey on the Sabbath could have prevented it.
Both First Sheaf Wave Offering-day Nisan 16 and day of Pentecost fifty days later, could fall, and usually did fall, on any, but same day of the week— the one, Pentecost, because by the Law, always a ‘sabbathly’ “holy convocation”; the other, First Sheaf Nisan 16, only by co-incidence also a ‘sabbathly’ ‘holy convocation’. Nisan 16, only if incidentally it coincided with the weekly Sabbath could be viewed a ‘sabbathly’ ‘holy convocation’.
Since First Bread Wave Offering was, a “holy convocation”, the Saddusaic ‘rule’” of “Day of First Fruits is always the First day of the Week” is ‘ruled out’ and destroyed.
As I contend, “firstfruits” is not 'on a sabbath', hence ruling out its occurring on the 'seventh day sabbath', as well as any other 'Sabbath'. Therefore I contend, 14 Nisan (and the ensuing crucifixion of the Lord) occurred from "sundown Wednesday to sundown Thursday (or the fifth day of the Hebrew calendar week), 15 Nisan (or "first of Unleavened Bread" - a Sabbath ) was on the sixth day of the Hebrew week, 16 Nisan was from sundown Friday thru sundown Saturday, the seventh day of the Hebrew week - a "Sabbath", and our Lord came forth from the tomb the first day of the (next) week, on "Firstfruits", which was that year 17 Nisan. (Emphasis Thursun)
Denied! I have shown you, “First Sheaf” is not ruled out to having occurred 'on a sabbath', or, on the 'seventh day sabbath'! You just go on as if I haven’t said a thing. But your argument is contradicted by your own conclusion. Nisan 16 was, “from sundown Friday through sundown Saturday”— accepted. Accepted also, “the seventh day of
the Hebrew week - a "Sabbath"”. Yet more, “the Seventh Day (of the Hebrew week) the Sabbath of the LORD”— not just “a "Sabbath"”! Then denied, your assertion, “which was that year, 17 Nisan”. Where did you get that ‘information’ from?
How did you ‘work it out’? Then finally denied most emphatically, your assertion, “our Lord came forth from the tomb the first day of the (next) week”.
Perfect where you say, “14 Nisan (and the ensuing crucifixion of the Lord) occurred from "sundown Wednesday to sundown Thursday (or the fifth day of the Hebrew calendar week), 15 Nisan (or "first of Unleavened Bread" - a Sabbath ) was on the sixth day of the Hebrew week, 16 Nisan was from sundown Friday thru sundown Saturday, the seventh day of the Hebrew week - a "Sabbath" ...”, but for your added fourth day, Nisan 17, where did you get that from? Why did you go on to spoil the truth with having added, “... and our Lord came forth from the tomb the first day of the (next) week, on "First-fruits", which was that year 17 Nisan.” Come again! You are correct in every detail; what requires of you to adjust, torque, twist, and wrest a fourth day in, after “the third day according to the Scriptures” you yourself have explained correctly?
I never "added" a fourth day. That is your reckoning, not mine. I am merely identifying them on a calendar. Although the first day of the week is certainly 'the "fourth" day'.
You what? “identified”, the dates, “on a calendar”? You dated Friday on the weekly calendar, “15 Nisan (or "first of Unleavened Bread" - a Sabbath”; But “the day after (this) Sabbath”, Lv23:11, 15-16, you ‘rule out’, skip over, and place it straight onto “17 Nisan”? But you say, ‘on a calendar’? O, I see, you “never "added" a fourth day” ‘on a calendar’; you deleted the third day ‘on a calendar’!
The first day of the week is certainly 'the "fourth" day'. The problem I see with a 'Friday' crucifixion, is that it does not allow any way for any of the following phrases of "after three days" (Mt. 27:63; Mk. 8:31), "the third day since these things happened" (Lk. 24:21), or "so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in
the heart of the earth" (Mt. 12:40) to have any sort of normal meaning whatsoever. But the 'Thursday crucifixion' does! Nor does it require one to 'adjust' (Read 'torque', 'twist', or 'wrest'!) other Scriptures to 'fit', either.
Ja, “the first day of the week is certainly 'the "fourth" day'”; so by no means can it be “the third day” of the Scriptures! From the most simple to the most complex 'prophecies' concerning Christ it from the beginning was clear Jesus would rise from the dead "In the Sabbath / on the Sabbath, in the very light of its being" “the third day”; never, after the third on the fourth day.
‘After three days’ is not the same as ‘after the third day’. You cannot show ‘after the third day’ in the Scriptures! ‘After the third day’ must always be interpreted literally because it is not a Biblical phrase, but an imagined idea for literally a fourth day. ‘After the third day’ means ‘on the fourth day’, but Jesus rose “on the third day”. Therefore the Scriptural phrase ‘after three days’ must not be interpreted literally, but idiomatically for simply what everybody knows is “the third day” of the Passover-Scriptures— which was no ‘fourth day’ and no imagined idea only, but “the third day / on the third day according to the Scriptures”; which again was the same as “in three days” or literally “after two days”.
From the beginning, the most simple to the most complex 'prophecies' concerning Christ made it clear Jesus was to rise from the dead "In the Sabbath / on the Sabbath, in the very light of its being" “the third day” ... could this be said of the First Day, one might have expected the First Day (Sunday) to have become the day of Jesus' resurrection. But we find nothing of the kind concerning the First Day in the Old Testament or New Testament the Word of sure Prophecy and Promise of God's speaking to us in these last days in the Son.
This is how I was taught to count:
One=14 Nisan (and the ensuing crucifixion of the Lord) occurred from sundown Wednesday to sundown Thursday (or the fifth day of the Hebrew calendar week),
Two=15 Nisan, "first day of Unleavened Bread Feast / Eat" - a sabbath, which was on the sixth day of the Hebrew week, Thursday night and Friday day,
Three=16 Nisan from sundown Friday through the Sabbath Saturday daylight until sundown Saturday, the seventh day of the Hebrew week. “ON” this “Sabbath”, “IN” it, precisely as the Law ‘predicted’ “in its fullness” (‘opse’) “in the very daylight being” (‘epiphoskousehi’) “towards / before the First Day of the week” (‘eis mian sabbaton’) --- Jesus rose from the dead. This is not to 'adjust', 'torque', 'twist', and 'wrest' the Scriptures – this is the Scriptures in Mt28:1, literally.
Christ rose "the third day / on the third day / in the third day / after two days". The ONLY 'idiomatic expression' of this single truth is found in the use of the word 'after' in the phrase, "after the third day", where the 'idiomatic' meaning is clearly the literal meaning of all the other descriptions of the day upon which Christ rose from the dead, which was the third day of his being in the claws of death and the pangs of hell. It ended on the third day, in it, and upon it - yea, even through it, it having been the Sabbath of the LORD your God!
On 17 Nisan the fourth day ‘after’ he had died, “He appeared first to Mary Magdalene very early on the First Day of the week.” (Mk16:9) No Scripture says He would rise ‘on the fourth day’!
Absolutely! He was NOT raised on the Sabbath! With all respect, Sabres, there is not one
verse of Scripture, that I'm aware of that ever even implies the Lord could or
would be raised on the Sabbath, anywhere. I am certainly no great Greek
scholar, by any stretch, but I think you are arriving at bad exegesis of Matt.
28:1, on which to build this. That verse does not stand alone against all other
Scripture, on this, but must be read in a harmonious effort. Secondly, the
exegesis of such, ignores the plural "Sabbaths", as well.
“The plural "Sabbaths"” cannot make a difference, ‘ignored’ or not. I say again, it’s not the subject now; it’s irrelevant.
There is not one verse of Scripture on the subject of the Sabbath that (1) does not imply God would and should have finished His eternal rest in Jesus Christ, and therefore, (2) should and would have finished His eternal rest in Jesus Christ by raising Him from the dead, and therefore, (3) would, and did, raise Christ from the
dead on the Sabbath Day. I am certainly no great Greek scholar, by any stretch not, but I have arrived at unavoidable consequences, that consummated in Mt28:1. That verse does not stand alone against all other Scripture, but is found in perfect harmony. Right from the first reference in Scripture, “On the Seventh Day God ended His work … and He rested on the Seventh Day from all his works … God blessed the Seventh Day, and sanctified it BECAUSE THAT, in it, He had rested from all His works which God created and did”, God “thus concerning the Seventh Day spake” “through the Son”, of the Son, and, in the Son.
Perfect is a Future Past Perfect, realised and brought to Perfection in the
(future) Christ. Take it if you can; I shall pray God that He will enable you
that you can take it.
The Scriptures foretells Jesus would rise on the Sabbath; then it confirms He rose on the Sabbath both on strength of the principles of Divine Rest on the Seventh Day and of historic actualisation of God's foreordination in so many words of His Eternal Covenant of Grace and Redemption. Newer ‘translations’ changed the true words to under-gird their propaganda of the false Sunday-resurrection. Conscience plays no part for them; it's old fashioned and too
unpretentious to believe the literal Greek of Mt28:1 and other Scriptures. “He shall think to change times and Law!”
The plural "Sabbaths" is the easiest of aspects in your argument. It simply is the plural for the singular, and I won't waste anyone's time on explaining something explained masterly by virtually all scholars worthy to be called scholars. See my books where I refer to some of them – to indeed the best – one by one.
I won't go into this in any depth, here, but both a 'Friday' crucifixion or a 'Wednesday' crucifixion require the Lord to 'violate' the prohibition of travelling a greater distance than a "Sabbath days' journey" on the Sabbath, as well. And I will also note that it took 2000 years for the phrase "between the evenings" to become clear, as to the meaning, as well.
From where your sudden concern for the strict adherence to the letter of the Law? Wasn’t Christ above the Law? And I won’t be able to see the relevancy “the prohibition of travelling
a greater distance than a "Sabbath days' journey" on the Sabbath”, or, “that it took 2000 years for the phrase "between the evenings" to become clear”, has on the fact First Sheaf was waved before the LORD on Nisan 16 and not on Nisan 17, or the relevancy on the fact First Sheaf was waved before the LORD on any day of the week, and not only or always on the day after the weekly Sabbath, Sunday.
Our Lord fulfilled all the types, including being our "Firstfruits" by being both the Passover Lamb slain, and presenting himself, the priest, as the firstfruits of the dead, as well. (I Cor. 5:7; Rev. 5:12; Lev. 23:19-12; Ps. 110: 4; Heb. 5: 6, 10; I Cor. 15:20, 23)
Amen! Our Lord also fulfilled the type of the Sabbath’s Rest by having presented Himself in resurrection the First Sheaf Wave Offering from the dead before the LORD.
I am familiar with the fact that Matt. 28:1 has 'sabbatOn', a plural form of Sabbath, as Wed2 pointed out. That has to mean more than one, as he surmised.
Not at all! It is not our subject, I say again, but the Plural is of a Singular, plainly.
You ask Why MUST the body be taken BEFORE sunset,...? Um, John 19:31 again? The Sabbath started at sundown. And one, following the 'Mosaic law', doesn't do any work on a Sabbath, maybe?? This is, again, why that 'Passover' and 'Firstfruits' were not Sabbaths, unlike several other feast days. Works for me! Even though I have never, in my entire life, had any 'allegiance' to the precepts of the 'Mosaic law', in any form - for as a Gentile, I never had it, and now, as a Christian, I'm not now, nor have I ever been, under it.
It has nothing
to do with whether one is under the law or not. It has everything to do with
the Law’s validity as the Word of God. You appeal to the Law non the less. Why
apologise to the Law if you’re not under it? I think it is because you don’t
understand the Law well enough that you protest— too much! The Law does not
prohibited all human activity of ‘work’ on the, or, on any, ‘sabbath’. In fact,
definite works are expressly commanded on sabbaths ... of any kind. Nisan 15
was, a ‘sabbath’; yet,
Why in any case would the body be taken down before sunset if it had been hung only a short while before? The crucified was etched off against the setting sun; that was the idea. To hang it and virtually immediately take the cursed down again, would defeat the end. It was the exposure that was important. But as I have said before, Mercy provided the body of a cursed should not “hang on the
pole all night”, but must be removed from the pole “before sunrise-light-of-morning” and “that same (following) day must be buried”. Dt21:23 and other Scriptures. It was the exposure that was important; more so, Mercy, that it’s shame should be ended and won’t be seen a second time— “before sunrise” should it be taken down!
But the body must be taken down before sunset to protect the dignity of Sunday-sacredness.
Was Jesus raised on the first day of the week like the Scriptures say He did?
The question is unfairly phrased as if it already is a proven fact that Jesus was raised on the First Day of the week! Truth is, it is a priori proven fact that Jesus would be raised on the Sabbath Seventh Day. But does the Scriptures say the First Day, or does the Scriptures imply, the First Day? Or ... not at all? We must first see before we can say!
The statements in Luke 13:32, 33 were made on Palm Sunday. It clearly shows that Jesus would be
crucified on a Wednesday; on the third day from palm Sunday. What is the third day from Sunday? It is Wednesday, not Thursday.
From where do you start counting “the third day”? “from Palm Sunday”, to, the day of crucifixion? Jesus would be raised, “the third day”; now you say He would be raised the sixth day – three days before death plus three days after death? It’s not even amusing.
allege Jesus uttered Lk13:31-32 on Palm Sunday, while 31a expressly states, “The same
day …”. It was one of those ‘same’ days Jesus still “went through the villages, teaching, and journeying towards
From Ephraim Jesus started out towards
Mk11:1-11, Mt21:1-11, and Lk19:28-44 chronologically follow immediately on Jn12:12. If you got this, the rest is very simple! Only follow the time-indications of the four Gospels themselves. It is remarkable how each day is not only recognisable from a definitive evening-beginning, but by a clear middle or morning-episode as well as by its late-day ending!
Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The three days and three nights start when His body is placed in the Earth. Not when He died. He was dead and off the cross before 6:00pm on Wednesday [which is the beginning of the Jewish high sabbath Thursday]. He was placed in the Grave Wednesday night.
We are off topic. I gave much attention to these things. Refer ‘Lord’s Day’ books 1 and 2, ‘Crucifixion’, ‘Burial’.
I have looked up virtually every verse I could find in about any 'standard'
version that used the words "in the Sabbath" or "on the
Sabbath". There are exactly three renderings of the phrase "in the
sabbath" in any standard versions, that I found. The YLT and KJV render
Ex. 31:15 thusly, and the KJV also renders Ezek. 46:4 in this manner. The NIV,
NASB, AMP, ESV, CEV, NKJV, DARBY, ASV, NLV, NIRV, NLT, HCSB, WE, and TNIV never
once use this phrase. That is 14 versions that never once use this exact
phrase. Yet most of the 16 versions I
checked use the exact phrase "on the Sabbath" an average of about 50
times with a few exceptions, the NLV which renders this as "On the day of
Rest" (61); YLT(24) and WE(31).
To what good is your distinction? Nobody contends! “In” and “on” the Sabbath mean just the same. Nobody contends your statistics. It is the one place that is important here, and that is Mt28:1.
And I would add two more things. "In the very light of its being", as referring to "the Sabbath" is merely a "theological construct" "from the get-go". There is no such wording even remotely close to this, anywhere in Scripture, to my knowledge.
You say only because you have not obtained that knowledge yet.
Not one of the 54 uses of "on the sabbath" found in the version I use, the NKJV, even remotely refers to Jesus and/or a resurrection "on the sabbath", by any stretch. (I checked them all, in their context.) It simply isn't found there and Scripture does not teach this, regardless of what
you are saying, or how many times you keep saying it, the 15 books to your credit, notwithstanding.
I would not contest your findings at all! I only ask, check up in e.g. your NKJV for “After the Sabbath” --- the word ‘after’ instead of ‘on’, or, ‘in’, KJV. Then you will see what I mean.
I will ask my question directly. What Scriptures foretold that
Jesus would rise on the Sabbath? Nor are there any Scriptures of which I'm
aware that ‘confirm He did rise on the Sabbath’. And as the
"firstfruits" He would have presented Himself to the LORD (the
Father) "after the Sabbath" in accordance with Lev. 23:6, as I've
previously stated. Just "saying
this", as you seem to be doing, does not make it so.
“What Scriptures foretold that Jesus would rise on the Sabbath?” Here’s one example, you, not anyone, is able to dispute, “God the Seventh Day, rested”.
Quoting you, “... as the "firstfruits" He would have presented Himself to the LORD (the Father) "after the Sabbath" in accordance with Lev. 23:6, as ...”
“As ...” not ‘as’ you “have previously stated” and here again, on Sunday the fourth day after ‘the three days’; but “according to the Scriptures the third day” (1Cor15:5). Not ‘as’ you “have previously stated” on Sunday after the weekly Sabbath; but “on the day (immediately) after the Sabbath” of the Passover Feast (Lv23:11, 15, 16). Ja, this is what I have written – 17 ‘books’ – on; which you may read from the web (http://www.biblestudents.co.za).
But, "In the beginning God ...." "spake", "concerning the Seventh Day, THUS: And God (not us) the Seventh Day from all His works (not ours, but “to us-ward”) RESTED", Hb4:4-5. If not this verse speaks of Jesus Christ, show me the Scripture that does! For God NEVER 'rested', but rested He "in the SON"; God NEVER "THUS, SPAKE", but "in the SON", “in these last days”. If the Scriptures there right at its beginning speaks of God's creating from nothingness, darkness and chaos, to "the Seventh Day" and "Rest" – "The Rest" which is His
– it speaks of
salvation already -- salvation in and through Christ "in these
last days" – the Christian
era. First, the word ‘Rest’, already tells me (I pray for and to you, the same)
of Jesus' resurrection and triumph over nothingness, darkness and chaos, on the
Seventh Day. "Therefore", says the Scriptures (not I)
"the Seventh Day is the Sabbath Day (the Day of Rest)
the LORD your God".
I have written many times on the Scriptures indicating the Seventh Day Sabbath for to be the day of Jesus' resurrection; read them. Read of the first and second giving of the Ten Commandments. Read of Athaliah's evil reign destroyed on the Sabbath and the “Son of the King” enthroned. Read of the prophets' emphasis on “the goings in” and “the goings out” to be “marked well!” Read of Isaiah 58 how that Sabbath-prophecy, foretells how Christ would be lifted high and made to ride over all the earth --- in resurrection from the dead on the Sabbath Day – yea, even because of His enjoyment of the Sabbath Day! There is NO 'Sabbath-Scripture' that does not first of all apply to Christ and to Him in resurrection and exaltation and glory on the Sabbath Day of GOD'S APPOINTMENT to that END, the FINISHING of ALL the works of God! "The Sabbath was made for Man" - first for Jesus Christ the God-Man, and ONLY in Him and through Him for us-‘men’!
Show me anything like this with reference to the First Day of the week! See the one-ness of the Word of God in the Old and New Testaments – and you see the Sabbath God's chosen Day-of-Rest because of Jesus Christ!
I think now of the dating of the New Testament books, what this single factor means for God's Sabbath Day. Don't think Paul's are the last remarks on the Sabbath in the New Testament; don't think of his Letters as the Church's final decision regarding the Sabbath Day. No, the latest books of the
And what do you find concerning the Sunday in the Gospels? That on Sunday Jesus appeared to a few – just like He for forty days more would continue to do. But you will read (from the unblemished KJV in this instance), that “In the Sabbath” He indeed did rise from the dead -- from which Truth all freeing-Truth flows, and “Therefore remains for the People of God, keeping of the Sabbath Day.” (Hb4:9)
The Day of the Firstfruits was the First day of the Week.
The Pentecost was always the First day of the week.
Jesus was resurrected on the first day of the week as the Firstfruits were waved on Sundays.
You have no proof that the Firstfruits day was not the first day of the week.
sweeping statements brings nobody further, Wed. But I have given you the
Scriptures, and you have no word in answer. I'll give them again, as short as I
Jesus was buried on Friday, Nisan 15, “a Great Day that day was”, says John, in which Jesus was buried in the “afternoon” of “the Fore Sabbath”, “The Preparation”. That day had had begun with an evening before on which first the Jews – to save face –, asked Pilate to have the bodies removed, because the prospective day would be their Great Day of deliverance: Passover Sabbath-Feast-Day, day to let the past go up in triumphant flame of life, and the remains of it be returned to dust. (Ex12:10) “And after these things, Joseph went in to Pilate and asked for Jesus' body” and did not “let it hang on the tree all that (ensuing) night”, but removed it from the cross, and “that very same day”, “according to the Scriptures” (Dt21:23), buried it. After the women had seen how and “where they laid the body, they returned home and prepared spices, day-having-turned-towards the Sabbath .” (Lk23:54) So ended the Friday of
Jesus’ burial. Jesus, therefore, was crucified on Thursday morning, Nisan 14 – which had had begun the evening before, when, “at the table … Jesus' hour had come” (Jn13:1, Lk22:7/14, Mk14:12/17, Mt26:17/20) to glorify the Father finally. In the afternoon of that day “the ninth hour” (3 pm), Jesus “gave the ghost”, and “everybody” deserted the scene of the cross and “went home”. So on Thursday before it had become evening AGAIN, and before sunset, Jesus had had been crucified and died, and had had been deserted by all!
Jesus was buried on Friday, Nisan 15. The day after Jesus had been buried, had had begun with an evening when “the women started
to rest the Sabbath”. The Day of First Sheaf Wave Offering and Day of Resurrection-Life came, and had to be reckoned, “according to the Scriptures” in this regard, “on the day after the Sabbath (of Passover Feast)”. So, First Sheaf had to have been on Saturday. So it happened, exactly, Mt28:1.
Jesus Christ our Passover is the Passover of God, from God – He is the Institution of it. The institution of the Passover does not originate in the Old Dispensation; God's true Passover belongs to us, Christians, before it belongs to anybody else. Look for its chronology in the New Testament; indeed in Jesus Christ and His history in fact; then confirm it from the OT. "The third day I finish (the works of My Father)", not, ‘the fourth day’! -- These are Jesus' own words, establishing both the Passover of God and the Sabbath Day of the LORD your God. May God help you to understand these things, for my attempts are weak.
The three days and three nights starts when His body is placed in the Earth.
No! "Break down this temple and I shall re-build it in three days" -- it says Jesus’ dying and death - His descending and tasting of sin's reward into death - was the beginning of the three days. And the three days ended when the temple of His body was raised from the dead more glorious than all temples of before and for eternity: "Exalted far above" marks the end; descended into lowest hell, its beginning. "MY HOUR IS COME!" Jesus also declared the hour in which His suffering would be the glorification of the Father, has come, and it marked the beginning of the three days and three nights the Son of Man would have been "in the heart of the earth" –
figurative language for DEATH and HELL – not literal language for a literal grave!
When the Bible said "it was almost (nearing) the Sabbath" it doesn't mean the regular sabbath but the High Sabbath. It is very very sure. Bible kept the silence about the distinction there, between High Sabbath and Regular Sabbath. However, what we can imagine is the atmosphere of the feast. Normally, people rested in the feast joyfully during these Sabbath.
Where Luke says "the Sabbath was coming on" (23:54), it was the weekly Sabbath that neared, on, “the Fore-Sabbath-Preparation-Day” that was Friday. This day Friday, had begun “already”, Mk and Mt say, “when it had had become evening” about 21 hours before, 15:42, 27:57. Of the same day, Friday, John also, at its beginning, says, "It being a Great Day that (prospective) Sabbath". It was Friday which was also the Feast Sabbath-Day that in Mk15:42, Mt27:57 and Jn14:31 had started, and that after Mt27:62-66, but before Mk16:1a, and with Lk23:54, ended. During this day says John, “they buried Jesus because of the Jews’ preparations / Preparation Day".
afterwards recalls these ‘preparations
of the Jews' where he
speaks of "the following morning after the / their preparations", 27:62, when the Jews on the Sabbath went to ask to seal the grave “because it
was the third day already”.
It is very sure, Wed! The Bible kept NO silence about the distinctions here, it makes extra effort to explain it fully! Here in this place it distinguishes between High Sabbath and Regular Sabbath by implication also! What we can imagine the atmosphere of the feast was like, should be Passover-orientated. The three 'first' days of the Passover must each stand out clearly. Normally, people rested in the Sabbath joyfully during the Feast; nevertheless, on the Feast Sabbath, only 'servile' work and work for gain were prohibited. But whereas even a burial was prohibited on the weekly Sabbath, on the Feast Sabbath it was compulsory. Look at the history of the Exodus where the remains of the lamb (after it had been slain on the day of Nisan 14 and had been eaten on the night of Nisan 15) had to be carried away into the wilderness and
had to be returned to dust by burning, Ex12:10, symbolic of the destruction of sin and death in the hell of Christ’s anguish and in the last day in the hell of the lake of fire.
(To Wed) The passage in Matt. 12:39-40 says not one thing about 'His body being placed in the tomb/grave/earth', as you will. Merely read the text, folks. [It is not that hard to do, in English, for a person with a fair command of the English language. (I admit, I do not know about other languages, not 'reading' or 'speaking' any others.)] The "Wednesday crucifixion" theory is
built primarily on the two faulty foundation pillars of this, and "'exactly' 72 literal hours" being eisegeted into Matt. 12:39-40, neither of which is in this text.
The AMP, DARBY, KJV, NLT, YLT, and ESV all render “in the heart of
the earth” this way. (Inexplicibly, the NCV does not here, but paraphrases it
to read 'grave'.)
There is no real dispute on how the Greek text reads here, either. The last half of v.40 verse reads: "ουτως εσται ο υιος του ανθρωπου εν τη καρδια της γης τρεις ημερας και τρεις νυκτας" according to the TR1550, WHNU, UBS (Aland/Black/ Metzger), and MT (Hodges/Farstad), with only the MT listing any 'real' variation shown, and that not affecting the real sense of the verse. The undoubtedly correct rendering of the last part of the phrase is "in the heart of the earth, three days and three nights". The paraphrases that render any of this verse as "grave" are, in no way, on any solid linguistic ground for this interpretation, masquerading as a translation. Nor is it possible for one to come up with a "72" number out of this text, by any stretch.
believes three days where of three days it is written; and Sabres believes
three days and three nights where it is written - only in Mt12:40. Here are those six time-units the Word of Jesus
evening the Fifth Day (Thursday) beginning,
in the upper room at the table, and Wednesday night through Gethsemane until
the morning of Day Five of the week, Thursday, when He was delivered to be
crucified; led away, crucified, died, and was deserted by everyone! Until:
The second night of the three had begun when the Jews asked Pilate for the bodies to be taken away, and Joseph after this asked for the body to be buried -- the day of Friday's first half, on which He was buried according to the Passover Scriptures that self-same day – the second of the three days of Mt12:40.
Then the third time came the evening and the third of the three nights as the women began to “rest the Sabbath according to the Command” of the Fourth Commandment. Then came the morning and the third day of the three days of the three days and three nights, and the Jews hurriedly asked the grave be sealed seeing it was the third day "this Man said", and "In the after-noon the Sabbath's fullness, when suddenly there was an earthquake and an angel of the Lord from the heavens descended ..." Christ was raised from the dead "THE ANGEL EXPLAINED TO THE WOMEN!" ... on Sunday morning a little after sunrise.
It is kind of like the argument about pre-mil, the young earth, and the six day Creation. Who cares? God created it, God has the end times in control, and Jesus was crucified on the day appointed in God's plan.
You are so complacent because all those easy-outs suit your idea of the chronology of the suffering and resurrection; you simply don’t care for what the Scriptures say.
But what, if God also 'appointed' the day Jesus would rise from the dead, “according to the Scriptures”? Would it have been pointless and meaningless? It would be the fulfilling of His Promises and Faithfulness. It would be the Finishing of all the Words and works of God. It would be God in His faithfulness and truthfulness, in control
of the End Times, caring about His creation, “all the works He had made”. It would be God the God of the Sabbath Day, and about the day, the Sabbath Day of the LORD your God. And “THUS, God concerning the Seventh Day DID speak!” We must find out if God did, “appoint a day” as He had “appointed a Man” Jesus for to have risen from the dead on. I dare tell you it in fact is so God did! And for anybody who read the Old Testament for Scripture, there's only one day that would ‘fit’ -- the weekly Sabbath Day. For there is nothing the like about the First Day of the week in all of Scripture.
Will knowing what day Jesus died, help the lost souls of this world, I think not, what matters is, Jesus died, rose again, and is alive today, the blood shed at Calvary 2000 years ago is cleansing men to this day, or was it yesterday,
or is it tomorrow ... it matters not,
"everyone who looks to the Son and who believes in him shall have eternal
I also wonder why God would take the trouble to 'inspire' so much about the Sabbath in the Scriptures, and busied Himself not only with the saving of men, but also with their being saved status and life as the Church!
I may yet have to come back and post why the Lamb was 'taken' on "Palm Sunday", and killed 'Thursday', having to do with Jesus keeping the Sabbath.
Take Jesus our Passover Lamb as the Rule, even of the 'OT' Passover. If the OT says the lamb should be "separated" on Nisan 10, then it is because it would be, and had been, the case in the case of Jesus Christ. (That is 'my eschatology' I don't ask you to accept for your own. God's will shall be.) Seen posteriorly from this point of view (if you can take what I say), the Passover Lamb had been 'taken' or 'separated' Nisan 10. Nisan 14 He had to be slaughtered; Nisan 15, buried, Nisan 16, raised— yea, had to!
Take Friday the "Fore-Sabbath" – which we are told in so many words was the day on which the Lamb was buried, Friday must have been Nisan 15, and Thursday must have been Nisan 14, "Day before the Passover Feast" (Jn13:1) on which the Lamb was slaughtered;
On Wednesday (Nisan 13) it had to have been said, "two days ... the Feast (sabbath)", Mk14:1;
On Tuesday (Nisan 12) it had to have been said, "two days ... crucified (Preparation of Passover)", Mt26:2;
Monday (Nisan 11) Mk11:12, "the next day" ... since ...
Sunday (Nisan 10) Jn12:12, "the next day" ... 'Palm Sunday' ... since ...
Saturday (Nisan 9) Jn12:1, "where Lazarus stayed ... lunch" ... since ... "Six days before the Feast Day" on Nisan 15!
(Nisan 8) Jn12:12 arrival in
If Jesus was
crucified on Nisan 14, Thursday – according to your own stance – and was raised "the third day according to the Scriptures" (no matter what your
stance), he had to have been raised on Saturday. That would be on Nisan 16 and Day of First Sheaf BECAUSE
Resurrection and First Sheaf correspond.
Not being mentioned 'Nisan 16' doesn't mean Nisan 16 had nothing to do with the Feasts. It fell right in the heart of the Feast, how could it not be part of it? If Nisan 15 is called the sabbath of the Passover – according to your own stance – then surely "the day after the sabbath (of the Passover)" – Day of First Sheaf – is Nisan 16! Most common sense!
"The third day according to the Scriptures" -- which Scriptures? - the Passover Scriptures – Lv23 i.a.
“The second point I made was that "firstfruits" is not said to be "a holy convocation", or "Sabbath", in the text, unlike "the First day of the feast of unleavened bread", which is specifically designated as 15 Nisan (Abib), and is always a "Sabbath".”
“... "firstfruits" is not said to be "a holy convocation", or "Sabbath" ...” Correct!
But, “... unlike "the First day of the feast of unleavened bread", which is specifically designated as 15 Nisan (Abib), and is always a "Sabbath" ...” “... is always a "Sabbath"”? ... What, or which, ‘sabbath’? Do you mean the weekly Sabbath? We’ll, then you’re wrong --- as shown elsewhere more times I can remember, that 15 Nisan could ‘float’ through the week as any of the dates of the Passover. But so do you too maintain, Thursun!
In fact, Nisan 15 is taken for granted in Lv23 as “‘the’ sabbath” – which could only mean the ‘sabbath’ of, the Passover as such: it belonged not to the ‘week’. But so do you too maintain, Thursun!
What could never vary, was the day on day sequence of the Passover MONTH. Never could one day be skipped or inserted in its number or chronology. It says in so many words: “Observe the MONTH of Abib!” People unwilling to obey this command of the
Word, has too often taken the liberty to chop out and or plug in days and dates at will. (And I at the present stage in my life’s span, am getting annoyed by its frequency and audacity!)
From this most simple as certain fact, I say, that if Nisan 14 was a Thursday and Christ crucified on it, then Nisan 15 was a Friday, and the weekly Sabbath, was Nisan 16 and “the third day” of “the three days” (Not, of four days!), so that Jesus the Passover Lamb of God, had to have been and in fact had been raised from the dead as would be expected and was commanded from the beginning of the revelation of the grace of God, “On the Sabbath Day”, “God thus concerning the Seventh Day having spoken.”
But antichrist envied the Sabbath this divine Truth and needed it for its own idolatrous substitute for the Sabbath of God and Jesus our Lord, and in transgression of the Commandment of God coveted it, and in transgression of both the Commandments Thou shalt not steal and Thou shalt not kill, robbed the Resurrection of Jesus from the Sabbath, murdering it, to in transgression of the Commandment of God parade its idol in worship on the Day of the Lord Sun ... going on to this day from the time Paul wrote Galatians 4:10.
Nisan 16 from this, it is to be concluded without a shadow of doubt, is implied as certain and sure as inferred throughout the Scriptures, to have been the day of the Waving of the First Sheaf of winter harvest in figure of Christ the First Sheaf of all saved. And that it like all the other days of the Passover Season, through history has floated from any day to any day of the week, in the last day in the fullness of time, to have come to rest on the Day of God’s eternal dispensation, election, destination and sanctification for that for all times co-incidence, “On the Sabbath Day of the week” : “sabbatohn”, Mt28:1 ... literal and true to the Word of God!
16 Nisan is never named, having to do with the feasts! In fact, the only occurrence of "sixteenth day of the first month" (Nisan) in Scripture, had to do with Hezekiah ordering the filth cleaned from the Temple in II Chronicles 29:17, where this was completed on the outer areas ("the vestibule of the LORD") on the 16th day of the first month. In fact, this is the only reference to the 16th day of any month found in Scripture, to my knowledge.
You claim “16 Nisan is never named, having to do with the feasts!” But on the contrary, Nisan 16 is presupposed ‘with the feasts’ as no other date ever— not even the Passover dates of 14 and 15 Nisan. The Passover in the very instance of 2Chr29-30 could be – had to be – postponed because of the uncleanness that on the appointed time, Nisan 16, had to be cleansed first, before they could be celebrated. Nisan 16 had to be observed despite in its true time, in fact exactly because of, the uncleanness of the People and temple; so Jesus first had to come “in the fullness of time” to make atonement for sin, before the People could truly celebrate Passover in truth and in spirit. Cleansing was of supreme and conditional importance for Passover and Sabbaths’ celebration. That cleansing was only finished when Jesus Christ broke the bonds of sin and death through resurrection from the dead.
From inner witness therefore one must conclude Nisan 16 is meant even though it may not be mentioned. This too, is the only possible explanation of the calling Nisan 14 a holy convocation in Ex12:16, but not in Lv23, where only Nisan 15 is deemed a ‘sabbath’ ... of ‘Convocation’, and in Lv23:20, on Pentecost, “The priest shall wave … the bread of the firstfruits as a wave offering before the LORD … 21 And you shall proclaim on the same day that it is a holy convocation to you.”
I am not sure of all you are driving at, but would note that Ex. 12:16 does not mention 14 Nisan, but refers to the seven day period of Nisan 15-21 inclusive, with the 1st and 7th days of this period being "holy convocations", where the only thing one was allowed to do was prepare food. (Ex. 12:16)
Blunder! “... Ex. 12:16 does not mention 14 Nisan, but refers to the seven day period of Nisan 15-21 inclusive ...” Exodus mentions 14 Nisan only – it does not mention Nisan 15, like the rest of the Old Testament does. That is because Exodus mostly uses the ‘old’ day-reckoning from sunrise to sunrise, but in two instances at least, it seems the sunset-reckoning was already known, viz. 12:15, “even the first day … (un)leavened bread [eat] from the first day …” as were 14 Nisan not one of the 7 days of unleavened bread eat; And 12:18 that
mentions “one and twentieth day” or 21st Nisan that can be one of the 7 days of unleavened bread eat only if the day’s night-part formed its first half. The date Nisan 21 in Exodus therefore, must have originated when, as in all the subsequent books of the OT, the ‘(Passover) Feast-of-Unleavened-Bread-(Eat)’ Nisan 15, had become a ‘sabbath’ of ‘holy convocation’. Nisan 14 as it were became the eighth day of the Feast Period and as it were became included in the Passover Feast as “The Preparation of the Passover”, Jn19:14. Note Mk14:12 et al, ‘a-dzumos’ = ‘removal / without leaven’ (it does not say, ‘bread’) “when without leaven(-adzymos) … the passover had to be slain” (Lk22:7).
The first day of Unleavened Bread Eaten (‘feasted > ‘Feast’), Nisan 15, in Exodus, was not 15 Nisan, but was, Nisan 14. The lamb was slain on Nisan 14 “in the afternoon”, and eaten “in the night after” on Nisan 14 – which (later) became the night-half beginning of Nisan 15 in which the lamb was eaten. Ex12:6/8. [On the change of Nisan 14 into one half remaining 14 Nisan and the other half becoming the first half of Nisan 15, see Book 1/1.] As I have said, you will notice that Exodus has both aspects of the Passover, Slaughter, and, Eat, on the fourteenth day of the First Month – Slaughter in the afternoon of the fourteenth, and the Eat of the lamb, after sunset in the night ... of the ... fourteenth! In the books after Exodus, the Eat of the lamb is always on Nisan 15 – in its beginning; in its night-part. Only one explanation for this (seemingly contradictory) datings is possible, At first sacrificial / ceremonial days were reckoned from sunrise to sunrise; later on – but still very early (see above, Ex12:16a) – their reckoning was changed from sunset to sunset, as it stayed permanently. So actually you should have noticed that Ex. 12:16 does not mention “15 Nisan” at all, but refers to the seven days of ‘Unleavened Bread Eat/Feast’ at a stage in history Passover began to begin with Nisan 14 and would have finished on Nisan 20, had not the sunset reckoning of day already been introduced.
The seven days of the Passover-Feast of ‘Unleavened-Bread-EAT/FEAST’ in Exodus overlapped with the day of the removal of yeast and slaughter of the lamb; after Exodus, the ULB Feast/Eat remained seven days while Nisan 14 from then on retained the two aspects of ‘The Passover’ – the things of “The Preparation Day”, the slaughter of the lamb and the removal of yeast or leaven, only. But both aspects – ‘preparation’ as such and Unleavened Bread Eat/Feast’ as such – became the conglomerated Passover Feast Season of eight days.
Therefore in Lv23:11b, “on the morrow after the sabbath” unmistakably means on the day after Nisan 15. The concept is repeated in verse 15, where the Day of First Sheaf is counted the first to Shavuot or ‘Pentecost’ – ‘Fifty Days’. In various other OT Scriptures you will find the very order confirmed, e.g., Joshua 5:10-11. See in Dt16:1-11 the immediate sequence of Passover until Pentecost without brake within the “seven weeks”. And finally the definitive date of the last day of UB: Nisan 21! There can be no mistaking “the day after the sabbath” of the Passover Feast, Nisan 15, without interruption “on the day after”, was followed with First Sheaf Wave Offering”
Cf. Neh8:18, “Understand the ‘reading’ ... understand the words of the Law”!! (vv. 8, 13) – Now, see 2Chron29:17!! Nisan 16 undoubtedly was ‘the third day’ of the eight days of the observance of the month of Abib, of the Passover-Feast! But in that year the Passover’s first two days Nisan 14 and 15 could not be kept due to the idolatrous pollution done to the temple, priests and People!
This incident of the cleansing of the sanctuary in the days of king Hezekiah is rich in prophetic symbolism. The temple had to be cleansed first, which cleansing was completed on the otherwise ‘normal’ third day of Passover, Nisan 16, day of First Sheaf Wave Offering, “Before the LORD”! The Lord shall only be approached in holiness! The day of first sheaf wave offering, Nisan 16, is the culmination and concentration in worth of both the slaughter of the Passover lamb and its eating. Without a cleansed sanctuary, sacrifice and ceremony are useless and its having been kept would have been useless, and in fact could not be allowed. Because in the first place Jesus Christ rose from the dead, the sacrifice of Himself atoned for sin and saved the sinner. In 2Chronicles 29-30 Nisan 16 as it were takes in first place in sequence of Passover-Feast-days as though seen retrospectively from the point of view of its Fulfilment in Christ Jesus.
I'm not exactly sure what you are attempting to say with all the rest of this, either, frankly, except for drawing a conclusion for 16 Nisan. And I would also note that Deut. 16 does not name dates, beyond 15 Nisan, either, for the period through Pentecost, just as Lev. 23 does not. Why? One reason is what I have already stated. [BTW, the days of harvesting the grain (and the presentation of the "first-fruits" wave sheaf)
could not have started on 16 Nisan when that date fell on a regular weekly Sabbath.]
“Deut. 16 does not name dates, beyond 15 Nisan ... for the period through Pentecost, just as Lev. 23 does not.” “Just as Lev. 23 does not”? But what have I wasted my breath on, when I showed you, Leviticus 23 ‘does name dates, beyond 15 Nisan’, in these words, “the day after the sabbath” of Passover? Why have you yourself argued for 15 Nisan as this in Lv23 referred to ‘sabbath’ of the Passover? You contradict yourself, because you do not speak truth.
“One reason what I have already stated”, you say, “[BTW, the days of harvesting the grain (and the presentation of the "first-fruits" wave sheaf)...”. Concerning these very days, Deuteronomy 16:8-9 has this to say, “Six days thou shalt eat unleavened bread: and on the seventh shall be a solemn assembly to the Lord thy God: thou shalt do no work therein.” Now because you defined your principle, “All "Sabbaths" were holy convocations; why was it necessary to designate this particular one (15 Nisan) as "a High day", if not for the first feast day of "unleavened bread"? (Lev. 23:6-7)”, I ask you, are ‘dates, beyond 15 Nisan’ implied— implied as good as ‘named’ in Deuteronomy 16, ‘just as’ they are implied as good as ‘named’ in Leviticus 23? Are they, or are they not? What say you?
The date and day of Nisan 16 as “the third day according to the Scriptures” of Passover, are implied throughout the OT Scriptures as ‘The Law’ as were they ‘named’. It is an undeniable truth. Your rhetoric against its truth is fruitless.
I have already told you, BTW, the days of harvesting the grain (and the presentation of the "first-fruits" wave sheaf) could not have started on 16 Nisan when that date fell on a regular weekly Sabbath.
Which had been a groundless and fruitless attempt. Labour on a ‘sabbath’ was your actual argument, and I have shown you from the
Passover’s history how certain work on the Passover’s ‘sabbath’ actually was mandatory!
A second reason is that the Hebrew calendar underwent a periodic "update" with the periodic insertion of "an added extra month" (Second Adar) about once every three years, or so, to keep the lunar calendar on a more or less even keel with the solar Calendar. Twelve 29-30 day lunar months totalling about 355 days simply do not ~365 1/4 days make! Or in other words, the Hebrew calendar has a built in error of about 10 days every year, without correction. (That does not affect the calculation of Pentecost, however, but is merely added for information.) There are always two potential "dates" for Pentecost, depending upon the year, but it was always exactly ("count") 50 days after "first-fruits". Probably why, like "first-fruits", there is no particular date assigned to it, for both can and do "move", unlike "Passover" (14 Nisan), "Feast of unleavened bread" (15 Nisan), "Trumpets" (1 Tishri), "Day of Atonement" (10 Tishri) and "Tabernacles" (beginning on 15 Tishri).
All this may sound good, but unfortunately for your standpoint is worthless. In fact, these argumentations of yours based on a determination of the year’s beginning from any day of the week so that Nisan 16 like any other date of the Passover-Season could fall on any day of the week, contradicts your assertion that “the presentation of the "first-fruits" wave sheaf) could not have started on 16 Nisan ...”, and further demolishes your basic claim, “... when that date fell on a regular weekly Sabbath”.
Yet you assert, “There are always two potential "dates" for Pentecost”? “... like "first-fruits", there is no particular date assigned to it”? You ignore the simplest language possible of Leviticus 23:11, 15-16 that tells you Nisan 15 was day of eating the Passover and is called Passover’s Sabbath. Leviticus tells you the ‘particular date assigned to’ “wave the first sheaf”, was “the day after the
Sabbath” of Nisan 15 – so that there is no ‘potential date’ for the First Sheaf to be waved besides ‘the particular date assigned to it’, Nisan 16.
And something else, without warrant and contrary actual fact
Scripturally as well as historically or traditionally, you just assert, “"Passover"
(14 Nisan), "Feast of unleavened bread" (15 Nisan) (etc) ... do not move”
... while all the time you were the
one who argued for the fact they do
‘move’? Truth is “"Passover" (14 Nisan), "Feast of unleavened
bread" (15 Nisan)”, etc. do move!
Their yearly dates were fixed; but their fixed month’s days, moved through all
the days of the week. It is an unarguable fact all the ‘feasts’ or ‘holy
convocations’ ‘moved’, or, ‘floated’ through the week. Ask any Jew. But much
easier and more reliable, ask the Scriptures.
I would once again note that the seven days of Unleavened bread are Nisan 15 through Nisan 21, inclusive.
I fully agree; undeniable fact.
That is 7 days. Try it by counting on your fingers. (Batteries do
sometimes conk out in our calculators, you know!) You'll see this. Nisan 14 through Nisan 21 is
Also how (or why) exactly does one, like you claim you did, "arrive at Nisan 21 within "seven weeks"!", to begin with? From when?? For why??
“Seven weeks” are “fifty days after the Sabbath” to Pentecost “counted”. The first 8 days of Passover were
(1) “Preparation of Passover” Nisan 14, slaughter of lamb, removal of leaven;
(2) “The Sabbath” of Passover Nisan 15, eat / feast of lamb and first day of Unleavened Bread Eat; to earth with remains;
(3) “The day after the Sabbath” Nisan 16, “thou shalt wave the sheaf”, first counted of fifty days (7 weeks) to Pentecost; Second day of unleavened bread eat;
4/17 and 5th/18, 6th/19, 7th/20 and 8th/21st day of Nisan, Ex2:18.
I refer back to your observation, “Nope!! ... 16
Nisan is never named, having to do with the feasts! In fact, the only
occurrence of "sixteenth day of the first month" (Nisan) in
Scripture, had to do with Hezekiah ordering the filth cleaned from the Temple
in II Chronicles 29:17, where this was completed on the outer areas ("the
vestibule of the LORD") on the 16th day of the first month. In fact, this
is the only reference to the 16th day of any month found in Scripture, to my
What does ‘the filth cleaned from the Temple’ in 2Chronicles 29:17 on Nisan 16 hold for the Prophetic significance of First Sheaf seeing it was figurative of Jesus’ resurrection from the dead whereby our sins were cleansed from the temple of His habitation, us, His Church? I believe Romans 5:10 has precisely the Passover-significance-of-order underlying it, where Paul declares, “For if, when we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son (Nisan 14, Lamb slaughtered), MUCH MORE being reconciled shall we be saved by His LIFE” of First Sheaf Wave Offering before the LORD – Nisan 16! Jesus’ resurrection has ultimate ‘cleansing / ‘reconciling’ power of ‘His LIFE’ – “MUCH MORE” than without there could be any, forgiveness of sins, any, ‘SALVATION by His life’. “If Christ be not raised you are yet in your sin” i.e., not “washed” / “cleansed from our sins in His blood” or “saved” (Rv1:5). “So also is the resurrection of the dead, it is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption (of cleanliness).” The temple’s floor was cleansed on Resurrection Day; Jesus on the day of His Death, washed the feet of them that walked the temple’s floors, then asked them, “Know ye what I have done to you?”
Dear Thursun, nothing of the OT happened without its meaning founded upon and being found in, Christ, not even the dates and datings you may found scattered throughout! “Hezekiah did that which was right in the sight of the LORD ... He in ... the first month, opened the doors of the house of the LORD.” (Resurrection) “He brought in ... and gathered … in the east street.” (Resurrection) “And he said ... Hear me (the Word) sanctify now yourself (Read Acts 2:22-24, “receive remission of sin in the Name of Jesus Christ.” Compare 2Chr29:6-7 with “Him ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain.” Cf verse 10 with Acts 2:39) “What shall we do?”
“It is in
mine heart (‘pricked in
heart’) to make
covenant with the LORD God of
My heart is full! What can I say more? I remember now, “The song of the Lord began”! “The Lord is my strength and song!”, both, Passover-Scriptures!, 2Chr29:27, Ex15:2. Forget not to say Ps118:14-24! That what on this occasion could happen, could have happened on but the sixteenth day of the First Month, yet on any day of the week; but, when that what happened here happened in and through Christ, it all could have happened but on the sixteenth day of the First Month, but “on the Seventh Day God THUS CONCERNING DID SPEAK” ‘in the SON-KING’, “in these last days”.
You said you couldn’t find a trace of the several Feast Days being all brought to finality of significance on the Sabbath Day. I hope this instance will make things clearer.
Nevertheless, if this one incidence of the mention of Nisan 16 could mean nothing to you as with regard to the Feasts of the Israel of God and even less to the Sabbath of the God of Israel, it should surely not be unreasonable if I asked you how you could transfer all this ‘non-meaning’ of First Sheaf Wave Offering onto Nisan 17 as immeasurably great meaning? Onto Nisan 17— which is not only removed four days from Nisan 14 and first day of the three days according to the Scriptures, but also, is not even once mentioned in the Scriptures? Yet you make so much of Nisan 17 that it becomes basic for Sunday-observance?
Again I refer back, “... the days of harvesting the grain (and the presentation of the "first-fruits" wave sheaf) could not have started on 16 Nisan when that date fell on a regular weekly Sabbath.”
Let me quickly point out a specific that totally unwarranted is generalised to the extinction of the specific, which is the ‘wave sheaf’ as if being ordinarily a "first-fruits". I noticed that you said “the "first-fruits" wave sheaf”; but it would be better if described just ‘First Sheaf’ – it had no commonality about it; the First Sheaf was specific of the sixteenth day of the First Month! It belonged to the date; not to a day of the week— not until the Messiah had become its Fulfilment and the Finisher of the Faith of First Sheaf Wave Offering before the LORD. Only then did it become a specific of the Seventh Day Sabbath the day of the Finishing of “ALL the works of GOD”.
Unavoidably I must once more take another stance than yours. The Command to abstain from work on the Sabbath of the Fourth Commandment should not be misunderstood as an instruction for other sabbaths than the weekly. Even the weekly Sabbath which has its own ‘special’ Commandment (the ‘Fourth Commandment’), is MUCH more about God’s work than about man’s work – how much MORE should it be, not about MAN’s work of abstention from work, but about GOD’S all-exceeding WORK OF REST – Jesus Christ!
No ‘ceremonial sabbath’ had as many works – works of prescriptions, ceremonies and sacrifices – as the weekly Sabbath had! ‘Ordinary’ sacrifices and offerings were virtually doubled for the Sabbaths of the Fourth Commandment. Wherefore should the ‘ceremonial sabbaths’ now be made days of less work and more rest than even the weekly Sabbath? (Strange how we may oppose the legalists the while we slave under our own legalism!)
Therefore, when coinciding with seasonal sabbaths, the weekly Sabbath received all in one of prescriptions, ceremonies and sacrifices, and became less a day of man’s abstention from his own works, than the day of man’s works in God’s service! Never have sacrifices and offerings of ceremony been prohibited on any ‘sabbath’, much less on the Sabbath of the Fourth Commandment! It’s a figment of man’s imagination they have! God’s Sabbaths were given for the worship of Him – not for man’s work of rest from his own works merely or firstly. Calvin understood that the Sabbath meant man should rest so that God may work in him. But the Sabbath was meant by God that man should on it work in His service more than on all other days; and that man should actually stand still and – through worship – should watch, how GOD, WORKS, FOR, MAN. (Ex14:13-14)
Nisan 16 was no ‘sabbath’; not even a ‘ceremonial sabbath’ or ‘holy convocation’. (As you know.) And having occurred during the time of harvest, meant it was a day of obligatory and inexcusable, work. When falling on any day of the week than the Sabbath, the First Sheaf was first reaped and offered, and the harvest went on as normal on Nisan 16. When Nisan 16 coincided with the weekly Sabbath the ‘First Sheaf’ was reaped nevertheless – the First Sheaf became simply another although special ‘offering-before-the-LORD’ of the Sabbath Day. It not only was not against any Law; it was strictly, according to, the Law!
So there is absolutely nothing in your argument “... the days of harvesting the grain (and the presentation of the "first-fruits" wave sheaf) could not have started on 16 Nisan when that date fell on a regular weekly Sabbath.” This now is the – according to you – one in seven year exception made the standard and rule. This now has come to the fore as your main and only ‘argument’ for a Nisan 17 First Sheaf, and has itself proven its fallacy.
The eight days of Passover – one day of its Preparation and seven days of eating unleavened bread – ended as instructed in the Law on Nisan 21 – so Passover never could have an extra day inserted in between any of these days. Also Pentecost always altogether constituted fifty days precisely – never one day more.
I basically agree with this general outline, except for when the Lord was raised, and the burial of the Lord's body. However, as I've said before, that is not primary to the "time frame" that I have been attempting to expound of "threes" ("days and nights"; "in three days", "after three days", or whatever). But a 'Thursday' crucifixion is primary to this.
‘This general outline of when the Lord was raised, and the burial of the Lord's body’, is vital for the chronology of the Passover at which Christ was crucified and raised, because it had to happen “according to the Scriptures”— which in effect shall mean, ‘according to the Passover-chronology of slaughter (Nisan 14), eat, and return to the earth of the remains (Nisan 15), and First Sheaf Before the LORD Wave Offering of the Passover Lamb of God (Nisan 16), “the third day according to the Scriptures”. ‘That is absolutely primary to the "time frame"’.
I refer back – “... the days of harvesting the grain (and the presentation of the "first-fruits" wave sheaf) could not have started on 16 Nisan when that date fell on a regular weekly Sabbath ...”
I have already explained this
(1) ‘Observe the month of Abib’;
(2) First Sheaf had to be “on the day after the (Passover)-Sabbath” – which day ‘after’ you agree was Nisan 15;
(3) Sadducees’ ‘after the Sabbath-theory’ non existent in ‘Saddusaic’ sources;
(4) Nisan 21 (Ex12:18) being the last date prescribed for the seventh day of UB-Eat and 8th day of the whole Passover, an ‘additional’ or 8th day of ULB-Eat and 9th day of Passover Season, is impossible.
(5) 50 days – not 51 days – had to be counted starting “on the day after the (Passover-)sabbath” – Nisan 16=day 1 of fifty;
(6) work in the service of the Lord obligatory on all ‘sabbaths’.
(7) The date of the fifteenth of the Second Month is given
(Ex16:1-3), so that 5 Sivan had become the traditional date of Shavuot to this day!
Given: Second Month 15, Ex16:1-3. “Six days gather manna; Seventh Day is the Sabbath” – Therefore 21st Zif is Sabbath (weekly). Count back, and Nisan 14 was on a Thursday; Nisan 15 would be Friday, and Nisan 16 would be Sabbath. So would Sivan 5!
Messianic Jews believe mostly that Crucifixion took place on Wednesday,
because of the reasons different from what Sabres is claiming now.
Their belief is this:
If the Crucifixion occurred on Thursday ( Friday cannot be at all), there would have been no time to purchase the perfumes at all.
‘perfumes were purchased’ on Thursday? – Not Sabres, I beg your pardon! Who
maintains a Thursday-resurrection would require ‘perfumes to be purchased’ on
Thursday? Not Sabres, I beg your pardon! Why would a Thursday-resurrection have
required ‘time’ to ‘purchase perfumes’? The
Crucifixion on Thursday does not require ‘time to purchase perfumes’ on that
day. In fact, the chronicles show its impossibility – as I have shown more than
In the evening of Thursday, the stores would have been closed already.
Not at all. After the meal Judas went out to purchase things for the Feast-Sabbath --- or so the disciples thought. They presupposed ‘the stores’ open that time of night. See also other indications considered, books 1-1 and 1-2, e.g., Par.184.108.40.206 ... http://www.biblestudents.co.za.
Being the Passover-sabbath that followed the day of Crucifixion meant only menial works and profit-making were forbidden, while specific works of ‘worship’ and ‘service’, were obligatory. See the Exodus story as it unfolded in history and later legislation.
On Friday and Saturday, the stores were closed because they were Sabbaths. The only chance is the Saturday Evening, for them to buy the perfumes, which may not be unlikely.
Thursday, crucifixion – no purchases being Nisan 14 “Preparation of the Passover”, “when they had to slaughter the Passover”; nobody then thought a burial a possibility.
Friday, Nisan 15 since Thursday after sunset: Interment. Purchases for holy ‘service’ were mandatory, so that, One, Joseph bought clean linen, and Nicodemus “brought there, about hundred pounds of myrrh”, and, Two, so that after the grave was closed, “the women went home, and prepared (not ‘bought’) spices” they at that hour “in time before the Sabbath would begin”, already have had or had obtained, with the view of coming back to the grave to embalm the body in the grave after the Sabbath.
Saturday evening, “when the Sabbath had gone through” (Mk16:1), Salome joined the Marys, so that they went “to buy spices” for her also to salve the body in the grave ‘according as the custom of the Jews to bury was’. That – “the Saturday Evening” – is what I have been saying all these years, Mk16:1, that it was the only, ‘likely’; in fact, that it was the only stated case of ‘perfumes’ having been “bought”!
Can’t you see there is a difference between perfumes ‘prepared’ and perfumes ‘bought’?
Can’t you see two women ‘prepared’, three women ‘bought’?
Can’t you see two women prepared on the “afternoon” of “the Fore-Sabbath”, three women bought “when the Sabbath was over”?
Can’t you see two women having returned, prepared, three women having bought, might anoint?
Can’t you see two women started to rest the Sabbath, three women after the Sabbath, bought that they might go?
The only day on which spices and ointments could not be bought, was on the weekly Sabbath, and we see the care taken before and after the Sabbath not to buy or prepare spices, on it. “The women rested the Sabbath as the Law says.” Lk23:54-56
The totality of your arguments against Crucifixion on Thursday and Resurrection on Sabbath amounted to less than nothing. They were self-destructive
You must be misunderstanding.
Abib 14- Thursday - Jesus died around 15:30
Abib 14- Thursday - Jesus was buried before 18:00
Abib 15- Thursday Evening - Abib 15 started after
18:30 Thursday - Passover Sabbath ( High Sabbath) has come.
Abib 15- Friday Morning and Daytime - Passover Sabbath
Abib 16- from Friday Evening thru Saturday morning and daytime until 18:30 - Regular Sabbath
Abib 17- Evening after Saturday 18:30 - Firstday of the Week, Day of Firstfruits, Perfumes may have been prepared.
Abib 17- Morning time of Sunday, Abib 17.
the High Priest was waving the firstfruits, Jesus the True Firstfruit was waved by God, from among the dead.
I prefer Abib to Nisan because Nisan was the Babylonian name of Abib.
Abib 8 ( John 12:1) must be Friday and the evening of Abib 8 was Sabbath.
Abib 9 Saturday Sabbath
Abib 10 Sunday
Abib 11 Monday
Abib 12 Tuesday
Abib 13 Wednesday
Abib 14 Thursday - Jesus was crucified in the morning ( 09:00)
Jesus died around 15:00-15:30
Joseph got the permission from Pilate 17:00
Jesus was buried before 18:00
Sabbath has come at 18:30 - Abib 15.
How could you find I was talking about 3 Sabbath days, other than Abib 15 and 16? Sabbath is Sabbath even if it is the High Sabbath or Passover Sabbath and no one can sell or buy on that day.
You maintain Thursday was a Sabbath for the purchase of the spices and ointments – or was it Wed? I’m sorry! Thursday a ‘sabbath’, plus Friday a ‘sabbath’ – Jn19:31, plus Sabbath a ‘sabbath’ = three ‘sabbaths’ back to back.
But dear Wed, Here is your statement, I quote you,
“Just for your
information, Messianic Jews believe
mostly that Crucifixion took place on Wednesday, because of the reasons
different from what Sabres is claiming now.
Their belief is this:
If the Crucifixion occurred on Thursday ( Friday cannot be at all), there would have been no time to purchase the perfumes at all. ...”
You now have stated belief in a Thursday Resurrection. Aren’t you ‘Messianic’? I have thought you are. My apologies if I was wrong! Then I have to review my negations of your view, as follows,
First, We have to decide what you mean with ‘evening’.
I take ‘evening’ of a day, for its beginning, that is, for the night just after sunset until dark (no more reflected sunshine). I believe this is the Gospels’ meaning with ‘opsias’ without exception. I shall proceed understanding ‘evening’ for this first part of a day-cycle from sunset to sunset.
Next, “Abib 14 - Thursday - Jesus died around 15:30” --- Fine, only it says in so many words, “the ninth hour”, which is, 3:00pm; to be exact.
“Abib 14 - Thursday - Jesus was buried before 18:00”. --- That means, on the same day of Thursday and before sunset and before the Sixth Day (Friday) had begun (with ‘evening’).
This is of course one of the major points of difference between our respective viewpoints. In objection against your view, I present Mk15:42, Mt27:57, Lk23:48 and Jn19:31/38 (unspoilt!). In the light of the unequivocal testimony of all four Gospels, Jesus was not taken off the cross ‘before sunset’, nor even shortly “after evening had come”, but quite some time after. His body did “not remain all night”, but was removed from the tree, “before sunrise”, and “that same day”, was buried. (See appended study.) I have presented some arguments in favour of my conclusion in this conversation, quite often.
The implication of it is Jesus was buried on the day, after ‘Crucifixion Day’ (Abib 14) – namely on ‘Interment Day’ (Abib 15), ‘Friday’. (The Greek Orthodox Church that follows the ‘quarto-decimen reckoning’ of ‘Easter’, celebrate Crucifixion Day on Thursday, ‘Interment Day’ on Friday, and ‘Resurrection Day’ on Saturday if Abib 14 falls on a Thursday.) [And have you noticed how many times that happens? Quite disproportionately more times on Thursday than on any other day of the week!] I have also in this conversation drawn attention to this facet of Passover Feast.
Thursday Evening - Abib 15 started after 18:30 Thursday - Passover Sabbath (
High Sabbath) has come.
Abib 15 - Friday Morning and Daytime - Passover Sabbath
Abib 16 - from Friday Evening thru Saturday morning and daytime until 18:30 - Regular Sabbath”.
Maybe a minor point, but why again “18:30” and not exactly 6pm? Equinox in Springtime, sunset will mean for the Jew the 12th hour, in our language, 6pm and the start of the new day. Otherwise I fully agree on every word, here.
“Abib 17 - Evening after Saturday 18:30 - Firstday of the Week, Day of Firstfruits,
Perfumes may have been prepared.
Abib 17 - Morning time of Sunday, Abib 17.
the High Priest was waving the firstfruits, Jesus the True Firstfruit was waved by God, from among the dead.”
Say we read Lv23:10b-11, 15-16,
‘Ye shall reap the harvest ... then ye shall bring a sheaf of first fruits of your harvest to the priest to be accepted (by the LORD) for you: On the second day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it. ... And ye shall count unto you from the second day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; Seven (weeks of) Sabbaths shall be complete even unto two days after the seventh sabbath; ye shall number fifty one days … and ye shall bring ... two loaves ...’, would you be happy?
Would you be happy if we read ‘Abib 17’ in 2Chron26, instead of “Abib 16”?
How do you count to the count of “the third day” from Thursday with Thursday day one and Abib 14? Will you not go on to count like this, Friday day two and Abib 15, Saturday day three and Abib 16?
— even ‘Saturday the day after the (Passover-)Sabbath day three and Abib 16’?
About “Perfumes may have been prepared” I have said enough. You don’t want to build your entire argument on the alleged prohibition of sales on Nisan 15?
Please don't misunderstand that I claimed Wednesday crucifixion which is maintained by many Messianic Jews. I am not a Messianic Jew. I already explained the most plausible schedule would have been:
Crucifixion on Abib 14, Thursday, in the morning around 09:00
Jesus died around 15:30 on Thursday, Abib 14, and was buried before 18:00 on the same day, Thursday.
Then we will have 3 nights and 3 days but still the resurrection on the third day, Sunday morning.
As for 18:30 for dividing the days, I have the following:
1. At ninth hour Jesus said Eli, Eli, Lama Sabachthani. This means that Jesus said so at 15:00.
Thereafter some people brought the vinegar (Mt 27:48)
Receiving the vinegar he said "It is finished (Tetelestai)" (John 19:30)
Jesus cried again in loud voice (Mt 27:50) which may be this "Father into thy hands I commend my spirit" Luke 23:46 (cried with a loud voice).
In other words, after 15:00, Jesus said 3 Words - Eli Eli Lama Sabachtani, Telelestai - Pater, Eis keiras sou parathesomai to pneuma mou, plus some people said Let's see Elijah come and same him, others ran to fetch the vinegar and Jesus received it and just tasted it (didn't drink), then spoke Tetelestai- Pater, eis ..., gave up the spirit.
I don't think, those all took place in one
minute, nor in 3 minute, nor in 5 minutes, but reasonably, 15- 30
minutes, most likely almost in 30 minutes.
So, in my schedule Jesus died at around 15:30.
2. As for the evening time, Day of the Unleavened Bread is the 15th Abib, the Full moon day, after the Spring Equinox. If it was on the Spring Equinox, it could have been 18:00. However, Day of ULB was not the exact Spring Equinox but a few days after it. It cannot be later than 30 days from the Equinox, but as an average, as we experience the Day of Resurrection ( Easter) these days, it could have been about 15 days from the Equinox. Everyday, the day time is getting longer by 4 minutes after Equinox, and the evening is delayed by 2 minutes, Sun rise gets earlier by 2 minutes. Therefore as an average, it could be around 30 minutes later than 18:00, then we reach 18:30. Depending on the latitude it might have been earlier than that like 18:15-18:30
The others are small issues, and you may imagine as you wish.
Thank you very
much for this very interesting information. I have never thought of the times
so with insight, and I heartily accept everything you have explained so well! Unfortunately though, I deem this of less importance than ‘the others' -- which again to me matters more,
and surely is based on physical facts of history just as much as these finer
detail on the hours of event which you have given.
What is most intriguing to me is how you arrive – just like I do – on Saturday "the third day according to the Scriptures", Nisan 16, yet ignore this demand of Scriptures, only because you attach so much weight to commandments of men regarding the 'shalls' and 'shall nots' of buying and such stuff on a ceremonial sabbath -- in order to force your way past "the third day", onto the Sunday, a fourth day?
Quoting Wed, “Joseph got permission from Pilate 17:00” You leave one and half hour for everything Joseph, Nicodemus and the two Marys did, before the ‘Passover-sabbath’ would have begun at 6:30 pm, ignoring the clear statements found in Mk15:42, Mt27:57, Jn19:31/38, and Lk23:48/52 which you had made the rule of, yourself, as indicators of the ending and beginning between days.
With this your ending to Joseph’s actions, you make the time of his rolling the stone into the closure to the grave on Thursday, 6:30 pm, sunset, at the moment of the start of the Sixth Day (Friday) – while it says literally “daylight having turned towards the Sabbath” (whichever ‘sabbath’ for argument’s sake). The actual words leave much time left before the ‘sabbath’ would start. You also with your very late time of day leave the women no time after the burial to leave for home in order to “prepare spices” before the ensuing Passover-sabbath would have started. So besides the literal linguistic and ‘religious’ problems you must face (like when the day starts and ends and purchases on ceremonial sabbaths), you also are confronted with all sorts of practical impossibilities. And all these ‘imaginations’ of yours, just because you insist spices could not be bought on a ceremonial sabbath!?
You forget Nisan 15 was the day the Israelites “with all might”, had to leave out of
Now notice the semblance between this earliest application of Dt23:21 long before it got written, with the life by the blood represented, was put to the trees in the doors of the Israelites’ dwellings in cursed Egypt, and how they had not to stay in Egypt “all that night”, but before the light of morning, had to leave cursed Egypt, to “in that same day, bury” the remains – exactly as the examples where we find this Commandment applied elsewhere in Scripture, e.g., Joshua 9:29f and Dt21:23.
Also see the similarities in the
Passovers of Exodus and Joshua, chapter 5. After at least 40 years after the
first, the Passover was again observed, “And the children of
(from "the following day " on)
ate of the
15:30 - the second day,
Until Saturday 15:30 - the third day,
Sunday morning - ca. 04:30 - Resurrection - 85 hours after death on the fourth day.(Not on the third day)
Until Sunday 15:30 - the fourth day
In the Greek New Testament, sometimes it says τη τριτη ημερα (the third day : 1Cor 15:4) too. Therefore the only way to satisfy both requirements - 3 days and 3 nights but still on the third day - is to find 3 nights before the Sunday morning, but should not be earlier than 72 hours.”
This now explains how you people came from Thursday to end up on Sunday! It’s not new to me though; I have answered this subtlety in ‘The Lord’s Day in the Covenant of Grace’, so long ago, I scarcely recognised it in this conversation.
You count three day-light parts, Thursday-day, Friday-day, Saturday-day; Then you count three night-parts – Thursday-night, Friday-night, Saturday-night! Heh! “Three days and three nights” Mt12:40!
Hold it! It destroys all the other declarations of the Scriptures about “THE, THIRD, DAY”. You got 6 ‘day-parts’, but not three, proper, whole, ‘day-units’! You butchered four proper days into eight parts and again botched up six parts for your hideaway from truth. The “three days and three nights” of Matthew and Jonah, were three complete days in total. It means the first principle of the Bible-reckoning of a day is obeyed, in that any part of a day represents that whole day, while also the very words, “three days and three nights” or “the third day”. Every of the “three days” of these Scriptures is constituted of and is represented by a night-part and its very own, day-part.
How many times have you simply evaded the fact you all claimed, that ‘a day’ begins with its evening? each time you have smuggled in and paraded your imposing gloss (or rather fraud) of four— no, five days’ leftovers! as ‘the’ “three days and three nights” of the Word of God! With this trick you tried to strip God’s Sabbath Day of its robe-of-honour to drape over your idol Sunday!
Thursday began with Wednesday-night; Friday with Thursday-night,
and Saturday, “the third day”, with Friday-night. And Saturday which was the
Seventh Day Sabbath, ended literally – “with/in
(its) after-noon”: ‘sabbahtohn--epiphohskousehi’,
Mt28:1. (The “light” ‘belonged’ – Genitive, to the Sabbath –
not to the First Day!) There is no other way “three days and three nights” can be found within and of the only ‘three days’ Christ said that He would
have been “in the heart of the earth”. Retrospectively Christ “In three days rebuilt this
Quoting Thursun, “...Day of First Fruits are always the First day of the Week. ( Lev 23:11-12), it was the next day after the Sabbath” (Emphasis Sabres)
Lv23:11, 15-16, “Ye shall bring a sheaf ... the priest shall wave the sheaf ... on the day after the sabbath. ... Ye shall count from the day after the Sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf. ... Even unto the day after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days.” Even one word more will be superfluous.
“The fifteenth day shall be an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. Seven days ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: On the eighth day shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord – a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings : Every thing upon its day! ... besides the Sabbaths of the LORD, and besides your gifts, and besides all your vows, and besides all your freewill offerings, which ye, give unto the LORD.” Lv23:34-38
The Lamb of God was slain on Thursday, 14 Nisan. ... 'Thursday' (14 Nisan), from sunrise to sundown represents the first of “three days”; 'Friday' (15 Nisan, the "high day", Feast day Sabbath from sundown to sunrise is the first of three nights, and so on, through Sunday from sundown to sunrise completing the "three nights", which order happens to be exactly deliberately reversed from the normal Jewish way of reckoning time.”
Quoting, “ ... the "three nights", which order happens to be exactly deliberately reversed from the normal Jewish way of reckoning time.” Not if considered retrospectively— Christ spoke as Triumphator, not as would-be triumphator. To ‘deliberately reverse the normal way of reckoning time from sundown to sunrise to complete the ‘three nights’’, is nothing than your unwarranted attempt to force together what the Word unconditionally separated. If you force together this side, you should force together three times to the rear, and in the process must upset and destroy all God-given and God-ordained order and meaning. In the end you must sit up with the leftover-parts of five days! Abhorrent idea!
‘Deliberately reversed’? After the above Scriptures I have presented? After all the Passover-Season ‘days’, had been reckoned ‘the normal Jewish way of reckoning time’, i.e., the mandatory ‘way’ of the Bible, of reckoning days from sunset to sunset? After the only other ‘way’ of reckoning of days found in the Scriptures – in Exodus – which would have forced you to date the Day of First Fruits on Nisan 15 and not on Nisan 17? After not one exception in all of the New Testament especially, exists that allows another reckoning of days, than from sunset to sunset? You come, and arbitrarily decide, “which order ... to be exactly deliberately reversed”? How serious are you in your Bible study? How conclusive do you accept the authority of God’s Word? How predisposed and prejudiced can you be? Only to win your argument?!
Your statement by exact unavoidable reversed from the normal, is your unequivocal acknowledgement of and concession to the ‘normal (Jewish) way’ of the Bible of reckoning the day-cycle and ‘days’ per se from sunset to sunset, but despite, you assume the right to ‘deliberately reverse’ the order? Thank you for displaying both your audacity and defeat so unequivocally! Pride comes before the fall.
'The Fifth Day' – ‘Thursday’ (14 Nisan), from sunset and night, to until sundown again, ‘represents’ the first of ‘the three days’; not, ‘'Thursday' (14 Nisan), from sunrise to sundown’!
Exactly so, 'The Sixth Day' – ‘Friday’ (15 Nisan), from sunset and night, to until sundown again, ‘represents’ the second of ‘the three days’, not, 'Friday' (15 Nisan), ‘from sunrise to sundown’! A ‘Nisan 15’ –or any other day or date for that matter– ‘from sunrise to sundown’ never existed in the Bible.
Exactly so, 'The Sabbath Day' – ‘Saturday’ (16 Nisan), from sunset and night, to until sundown again, was in fact “the third day” of ‘the three days’, “according to the Scriptures”; not, 'Saturday' (16 Nisan) ‘from sunrise to sundown’! A ‘Nisan 16’ and even less a ‘Nisan 17’ –or any other day or date for that matter– ‘from sunrise to sundown’ except in Exodus never existed in the Bible.
From sunset to sundown ‘Saturday’ – Nisan 16 – completed “the third day” of ‘the three days’, “according to the Scriptures” SO THAT the night-part of the Fifth Day (Thursday) the first of the “three days”, completed the "three nights" of Mt12:40, which order happens to be exactly the normal Jewish way of reckoning time, but seen retrospectively – that is – from the perspective of the Risen Christ that “so shall have been in the heart of the earth, three days and three nights”. Every essential of the principle of interpretation and understanding the Scriptures’ ‘way to reckon days’, is respected and obeyed, and the Law of God (not men’s) magnified through “the Glory of God in the face of Jesus”. We need never to belittle in whichever way God’s Law; which is immutable because in Christ and through Christ it has been made fast and true. Only men in a spot challenge God’s Law, because “the Law is for the transgressors”. The fault must be blamed on the Law of God because I, am my law unto myself. My hate to be under law from its nature must be projected upon something; and that something cannot be me; so we pile it upon the Law of God – or rather, upon His Sabbath Day, because we have fooled ourselves concerning our status with regard to all the other Laws of God ... Men can see the outside only; and I am one of those men who can see the outside only, and am, oh, so content with myself-my-law, blinding all spiritual sight my face shines like a saint’s.
“... there is specific significance (actually about three of them) to Matt. 28:1, where the Holy Spirit inspired Matthew to pen the words,
Ὀψὲ δὲ σαββάτων, τῇ ἐπιφωσκούσῃ εἰς μίαν σαββάτων, ἦλθεν Μαριὰμ ἡ Μαγδαληνὴ καὶ ἡ ἄλλη Μαρία θεωρῆσαι τὸν τάφον. (Matt. 28:1 - Tsch. Gk NT, my underlining) - After the Sabbaths, towards the dawn of the day following the Sabbaths, Mary, the Magdalene, and the other Mary, came to examine the tomb. (Matt. 28:1 - HBME)
(1) ... the use of the plural form "σαββάτων", two times, in the verse. Translators such as Green, Fenton, Marshall, and Young get the import, here, and get it right as "the end (conclusion) of the Sabbaths", (a 'literal' sense, here, in the first instance) as there were more than one involved. The second use, later in the verse, is also a normal rendering of "σαββάτων" as "week". Both of these uses are attested to by J. H. Thayer and Alan Wigram, in their lexicons.”
Even if accepted, what ‘HBME’ (whatever it is), and ‘J.H. Thayer and Alan Wigram’ concluded, changes nothing to the fact the time of the event on the day concerned, was still, “"the end (conclusion) of the Sabbaths", (a 'literal' sense, here, in the first instance) as there were more than one involved”. (Emphasis CGE) The meaning still, is not, ‘after the sabbaths’ as Sunday-resurrection protagonists allege. There were two consecutive ‘sabbaths’ – the Passover’s and the week’s, and whether the ‘end-part’ meant, was that of both or of only one of these ‘sabbaths’, “it-was-the-inclining-light-OF-THE-SABBATHS”, that “shon / lighted”, “towards the First of the Sabbaths” (Sunday the impending and still future day). It helps a Sunday-resurrection idea nothing. In fact, these references confirm a ‘Sabbath’s-event’ “towards the dawn of the day following the Sabbaths”!
So ‘HBME’ as clearly as daylight contradicts itself with saying “...After the Sabbaths, towards the first week’s (day, Sunday) ...”. I have seen scholars who do not even notice what nonsense they argue, who maintain the ‘second’ ‘sabbahtohn’, while it came ‘after the Sabbaths’, was “the first of the Sabbaths”!
But the learned men you refer to are simply wrong; ‘sabbaths’ in the first phrase – being in the Genitive – means “In / on / of the (weekly) Sabbath” or “In / on / of the Sabbath of the week”, just
like ‘sabbaths’ in the second phrase, being in the Accusative, by ellipsis implies, “against the First (Day) of the week. — Which (in their words), is, “a normal rendering of "σαββάτων" as "week".” (After how many times I have said I was not going to enter into a conversation on this subject! See repeatedly treated on in ‘LD’.)
A far more accurate rendering therefore certainly will be, “In the end of the Sabbath, towards the dawn of the first day of the week as Mary the Magdalene and the other Mary, left to go see the tomb …”.
“Towards the dawn” should not be misunderstood for ‘before sunrise’, but for ‘the last end-part’, “towards” (‘eis’), when the approaching day, The First Day of the week, ‘began to become apparent’ (Oxford Collins) “by the declining turn of the light / sun” – literal of ‘epiphohskousehi’. As the gentlemen referred to above, aptly state, “towards the dawn of the day following the Sabbaths”! It couldn’t have been said better!
The phrase "on the Sabbath" in the NKJV. Not one time does this phrase occur tied in, in any way, to the words or idea of "resurrection", that I can find.
You found correctly as “to the words”; but how could you find that the “The phrase "on the Sabbath"”, does not “in any way (tie in) to the ... idea of "resurrection"”? The whole context of Mt28:1 concerns the Resurrection of Christ! In all of the New Testament Mt28:1 is the only text that gives any information on the day, its time, the where and the how of Jesus’ resurrection! And you say, “The phrase "on the Sabbath" ... (n)ot one time ... occur tied in, in any way, to the words or idea of "resurrection"”? You could not have looked far; you should have encountered such an ‘occurrence’ first in Mt28:1!
Were you able to find that the phrase "towards the First Day of the week”, ‘ties in’ to either the word or idea of ‘resurrection’? No, you could not because the word, ‘resurrection’ is not used in Mt28:1. So what gave you the idea the phrase "towards the First Day of the week”, would tie in to the word of ‘resurrection’? Just prejudice. But prejudice coupled with disregard for every factor of grammar and syntax applied in the context. For, for the phrase "towards the First Day of the week” to ‘tie in to the idea of the Resurrection’ and for the phrase “On the Sabbath” not to ‘tie in to the idea of the Resurrection’, every grammatical and syntactical aspect of ‘words’, ‘phrases’, and ‘idea’, MUST be corrupted, and in fact, must exactly deliberately be reversed from the normal Greek way of grammar and syntax.
And that was exactly what Justin Martyr did, and why he found it inevitable to change these factors about and to present a totally garbled version of the Greek in Mt28:1, in order to sustain his ‘idea of the resurrection’, “after the Sabbath” and “on the Day of the Sun” – things the learned referred to by you, have thought better not to reveal in the smallest of detail.
With all respect, it takes a tremendous amount of gyrations and gymnastics, to arrive at a "Saturday" or "Sabbath" resurrection, in any way. I simply don't have the time to get into this in detail now, but will add that I've already covered this in my previous posts, on this thread, as has basically Eliyahu. Our positions are a lot less 'painful' to arrive at, frankly. Mostly, because we are not attempting to read anywhere near as much "into" the texts, IMO.
FTR, "J. H. Thayer and Alan Wigram" are the authors of the two Greek lexicons that I possess, and have had since
I agree that the 'BAGD' (at 150 clams in 'hard cop, and which I ain't a-spendin') is probably at "the top o' the heap", as to Greek Lexicons, with Thayer's, Wigram's, and Strong's following, in roughly that order, although some might reverse the order of the last two.
I do not either know, or still remember, what is the other acronym of "HBME" to which you referred, and I apparently cited. So why don't you accept this one, ...
Because you have said nothing as to argument; nothing! I am no one to grade books to quality, especially not books like you have mentioned, because they equally are the fruit not only of the authors themselves, but of the denominational traditions and worldviews of their times. Not even in these ‘analytical’ works is it possible to find total objectivity and pure scientific method. Walter Bauer, e.g., speaks of “our literature” re Mt28:1 as if in contrast with ‘secular’ literature. What can you expect? Just normal human and conditioned subjectivity! But as you can see from the sources you have quoted, these men honestly believe they are right so much, that they are blinded to the implications of their honesty. These writers of thesauruses etc. did not busy themselves with exegetical issues – what theological! They worked with grammatical and linguistic issues which they unawares but inevitably influenced by their own worldviews, have tried to explain. There is no better example of their dilemma than the issue of the Christian Sabbath. You do face the same dilemma, believe me; I had to! (Karl Barth said, it is a lazy person who uses as excuse that he is not a theologian. Everybody is a theologian – every serious Christian, and need not retreat before the most famous of theologians. I have seen many although loaded with degrees and medals not worth the smell of theologian.)
So why don't you accept this one, ... as opposed to attempting to explain how it was on the (regular weekly) sabbath, yet after the (high-day) Sabbath, therefore being on the Sabbath but "not on the sabbath," simultaneously ...
If I understand you correctly now, this is what I have more than once told you I agree on with you. I accept (and do not oppose or attempt to explain away), how ‘it simultaneously was’ on the (regular weekly) Sabbath, yet after the ‘High-Day-sabbath’,
therefore being “on the (regular weekly) Sabbath” and, not on ‘High-Day-sabbath’, as the Scriptures say, “ON THE DAY AFTER THE SABBATH (OF PASSOVER)”. But now you maintain it was on the second day after the Passover-Sabbath— on Nisan 17 instead of on Nisan 16. And the real issue here is not, whether “it was on the (regular weekly) sabbath, yet after the (high-day) Sabbath, therefore being on the Sabbath but "not on the sabbath," simultaneously”, or not. Don’t evade the true point of conflict, which is, that Jesus rose “On the Sabbath” the ‘Sabbath’ after the Friday (which Friday
you yourself say was the Passover-sabbath of Nisan 15) or not.
There is no additional qualifier between "after" and "the Sabbath", that I can see in the text. So am I missing what is actually "found in the text", or merely what you are attempting to "read into the text"?
I don’t understand what you mean with, “There is no additional qualifier between "after" and "the Sabbath"”. But I’ll say there is in fact absolutely no qualifier, ‘additional’ or original, that requires or allows ‘AFTER the Sabbath’ in either the first or second ‘phrase’. In the first phrase, “In the Sabbath”, there is the qualifier to the effect of ‘IN’, in the Genitive of time and sort of the Noun, “Sabbath’s-time”-‘sabbahtohn’. This ‘qualifier at the same time is an absolute disqualifier for the concept, ‘AFTER the Sabbath’ by whatever ‘tremendous amount of gyrations and gymnastics’. I could go on and on – rather read the many arguments in ‘LD’. As far as the second ‘phrase’ is concerned, the Accusative (to again name but one example of many factors) demands “BEFORE the First Day” – it can NOT EVER, be, ‘on’, or, ‘in’, or, ‘of’!
Once again, I refer to the fact (as opposed to the theory) that neither "first fruits" nor "Pentecost" are listed with specific days of a month, unlike every other 'feast day" in the texts.
Absolute nonsense! After all we have gone over!
Neither "first fruits" nor "Pentecost" are listed with specific days of a month, Why not?? Answer, because Biblically, they can and do 'move' 'forward', by one (and only one) day, an (overall) average of one year out of every seven, depending on what day of the week 15 Nisan/Abib falls. This only happens when 15 Nisan falls on the sixth day of the week, which would be expected to be an average of one year out of seven. The insertions of the 'calendar correcting month' of 2nd Adar, can and does change this interval, causing it to occur sooner, in some cases, and further apart in others. Still, overall, it occurs one time every seven years.
For which surmising, you have ZERO, Scripture! Speculations like yours, there are several other, ‘THEORIES’ of.
Fact is, Equinox was accurately determined astrometrically, thereafter the first New Moon was accurately determined astrometrically – no ‘sightings’-stuff – and the day of that New Moon, that day was, Abib 1. It did not matter ever WHERE the previous year ENDED. If a period was ‘vacant’ in between the last 12 months 30 days per month year, then a part-month of any number of days was ‘added’ in between the end of the old year and the first day on the month Abib as determined accurately astrometrically. As you have observed, this could have been done every few years, so that more or less one lunar month could be inserted— just like you have said – I have no issue with it! What I have serious objection to is that these ‘possibilities’ could have influenced the determination of First Sheaf Wave Offering? It could not in the least! For throughout in the meantime the week-cycle just went on uninterruptedly – and that, is what caused (and still causes) the definitely FIXED dates of the MONTH, to float through the days of the WEEKS. It is impossible to say every which year the same co-incidence of Date of Month would recur on the same day of week.
“...the "high Sabbath" of the first day of the feast of Unleavened Bread, have a particular significance, unlike the regular weekly Sabbath, known to all. Scriptures that specifically
testify to this are Matt. 26:1-5; Mk. 14:1-2; and Jn. 19:31. Matt. 26:1-5 also, with Jesus' use of the phrase "after two days is the Feast..." is consistent with the Jewish "inclusive" reckoning of time, as well. The day on which he was speaking, the following day (starting at sundown) which would have been 14 Nisan, and when the Passover was celebrated "between the evenings", which meaning never showed the import of those words, until the partaking of the passover Seder by Jesus and the disciples and His crucifixion which followed about 9:00, the next AM. (still on 14 Nisan) and the "Feast" of 15 Nisan.”
“... the "high Sabbath" of the first day of the feast of Unleavened Bread, ... Scriptures that specifically testify to this are Matt. 26:1-5; Mk. 14:1-2 ...
The "High Day" of the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread ... Scriptures that imply this, are, i.a., Mk. 14:1-2. “Matt. 26:1-5”, does not apply.
Counted according to Mark 14:1, – “after two day was the Feast of the Passover”: Jesus spoke these words on Wednesday, Nisan 13.
“The day on which Jesus was speaking ... ‘after two days is the Feast’, the following day starting at sundown with the Lord’s Supper (Not, with the partaking of the Passover Seder), would have been 14 Nisan (Thursday) until ... the Passover sacrifice would be killed “in the afternoon” “between the two nights” (literal for the Dual ‘behn-ha-arbahim’).
The second day following (Nisan 15, Friday) starting at sundown and the night-half of the Passover Seder’s partaking by the Jews (Thursday-night), the "high Sabbath" of the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread (Nisan 15, Friday) would have been until ... Joseph had closed the sepulchre, and up to before, “the women had begun to rest the Sabbath”.
“... the partaking of the Passover Seder by Jesus and the disciples and His crucifixion which followed ...” The Passover Seder followed after the Crucifixion. What came before the Crucifixion, was the Lord’s Supper.
“... the Passover Seder by Jesus and the disciples and His crucifixion which followed about 9:00, the next AM. (still on 14 Nisan)” The Seder was eaten “in the evening”, on Nisan 15, night-its-first-part. Seder was not, “still on 14 Nisan”. Seder of the Passover was the sacrifice eaten – it could not be eaten before slaughtered; so must follow after, Nisan 14, on Nisan 15 beginning “in the evening”.
and the disciples and His crucifixion which followed about 9:00, the next AM. (still on 14 Nisan) and the "Feast" of 15 Nisan.”
“... the "high Sabbath" of the first day of the feast of Unleavened Bread, ... Scriptures that specifically testify to this are Matt. 26:1-5; Mk. 14:1-2 ...
Counted according to Mt26:2, – “after two days was the Pascha - slaughtered ” (Mk14:12): Jesus spoke these words on Tuesday. He spoke of the ‘pascha’ – “the day they killed the passover on” – not, the day on which they ate the Passover.
The day on which Jesus used the phrase, "after two days is the Passover", the day following would have been the day on which He spoke Mk14:1, “after two day was the Feast of, the Passover”. He would have been speaking two days “before the Feast” (Jn13:1), called, “Preparation of Passover” (Jn19:14), which would have been 14 Nisan, “when always they killed the Passover” (Mk14:12), “When they were obliged to kill the Passover” (Lk22:7). This day, Mark, Matthew and Luke, describe as ‘heh hehmera tohn a-dzymohn’ –‘day without leaven / leaven removed’. No ‘bread’ yet! Only the unleavened dough was ‘prepared’ on Nisan 14; the bread was baked while the lamb was roasted, no longer ‘between the evenings’ but after sunset, in the evening, “on the "Feast" of
15 Nisan”. (Another ‘work’ of the Feast-Sabbath.)
“"In the very light of its being", as referring to "the Sabbath" is merely a "theological construct" "from the get-go". There is no such wording even remotely close to this, anywhere in Scripture, to my knowledge.”
‘No such wording’? ‘anywhere in Scripture’?
Lk24:54, “And that day was / has been the Preparation”, “which is the Fore-Sabbath” (Mk15:42) “light=fohs tending towards=epi Sabbath=sabbaton” (Akk);
‘eti faous ountas’ – while there was still daylight;
‘pannucha kai faethontai’ – whole nights and days;
‘heh epifasis’ – ‘appearance high in the field of vision’ (Lampe);
‘epilampoh’ – ‘to shine after or upon’ (Classic);
Job 31:24-25, ‘hehlion ton epifauskonta X ekleiponta’ – ‘the sun shines; the moon fades’;
Job 25:4-6, ‘selehnei ouk epifauskei’ – ‘the stars are not bright’;
Job 41:9, ‘At the serpent’s sneezing a light hurtles down’, ‘epifausketai fengos’;
Cf. its OPPOSITE, ‘UP-coming light’, ‘Diafohskoh;
‘The brightness of His coming’, ‘epifaneia’, 2Th2:8;
‘Neither sun nor stars in many days appeared (in heaven above)’, Acts 27:20;
‘The appearing of our Lord who inhabits light unapproachable’ – ‘epi-fain-oh’;
OPPOSITE: ‘Tehi epi-ous-ehi NUKTI’ (Acts 23:11) X ‘tehi epifohskousehi sabbahtohn’ – ‘the very same night’ X ‘the very same Sabbath’;
1Sm13:21 ‘in the end of the year’ – ‘en tehi epionthi etehi;
“Everything manifest is light; That’s why He says, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall shine upon – ‘epifausehi’ – you. Eph5:14”;
Etc.etc.etc. “...merely a "theological construct" ... no such wording even remotely close”? To THIS: “epi”=acme of “Fohs”=light / day OF the Sabbath’S=“Fohs” it BEING=“ontas” IN=“ousehi” (Dat) – “no such wording even remotely close”? You give me nearer words, more literal, more intentional the meaning of the author?
“I will defend the KJV, just as I will defend the NKJV, or another 'legitimate' (as opposed to one 'contrived' IMO, such as the NWT, e.g.) version - no more; no less. ... Not one of them deserves their motives to be judged post-humously, in absentia, and absent any evidence.
All you say is reasonably acceptable and to a large extent also reflects my own viewpoints. I have a problem though with you saying, “Not one of them deserves their motives to be judged post-humously, in absentia, and absent any evidence.” Does this now mean obvious differences must be overlooked? Does it mean no ‘translation’ has got mistakes in it? Does it mean one has no right to show mistakes or doubtful renderings? Does it mean the reader must either be blind for differences / and or errors, or keep himself too dumb to notice any and too timid to point them out?
Do you mean the translators truly experienced no preconceptions? If so, were they truly human? How could they close them off from their own world? Just like “Tyndale drew on his knowledge of the Vulgate and Wycliffe”, just so “the late John Rainolds” drew on the trends and opinions of his day, and it must be a blind man who cannot recognise the necessary differences the GREEK SHOULD show, to accommodate his and Tyndale’s renderings.
Now is it not truly remarkable that – as far as I know and I do not know everything of course – isn’t it truly remarkable THERE ARE NO ‘VARIANTS’ on the whole of Mt28:1 as well as of Mk15:42. The nearest to a variant of Mark 15:42, is Mt27:57! The changes made to these two – and other – ‘Sabbath-implying’ texts in translations CANNOT have happened unpremeditatedly, accidentally, or, UNPRETENTIOUSLY! It certainly is no case of ‘motives judged in absence of any evidence’. The ‘evidence’ is found IN these instances, each time! I will never be able to “defend the KJV, just as I will defend the NKJV” – they are just not in the same class!
Somehow, you are managing to find a number of "'Sabbath-implying' texts" all throughout Scripture, even when such are not stated in the text(s) to which you sometimes refer. Are we to surmise that everyone has gotten it wrong, for 2000-3500 years, until you, and a small handful of others have "re-discovered" this hidden truth, somehow? ...
Good point, and the answer is just as easy and good as the question! From when is the Bible available to everyone? Not from centuries ago; only from very recently – The Bible became available in Afrikaans as late as 1933! But from when do all these newer 'versions' date? Only from the Nida-Commission started the tsunami! Then here's the crux! THEY, this new generation of critics of Holy Scriptures, discovered it --- not I --- and THEY, this day, show it to you! They do it like they did it to or for me (and others) rather. They did it with their OBVIOUS OBFUSCATING of the implications of the Sabbath-resurrection. And it is even possible to show how as time went on, the one after the other implication, was discovered, so that the later / newer the version, the more of these Sabbath-Resurrection-implicating statements of Scripture, were ‘translated out’.
This whole process of discovering the matter in hand, started while I, in the Church, sat reading from the Bible two 'versions' and the differences we are talking about, showed themselves to me while I had NO knowledge of the Greek, or, had the faintest idea other than about a ‘Friday Crucifixion, Sunday Resurrection’ like all the rest of us still have.
Taken Down Before Sunset, or, Before
An unknown author quotes
<< Deut.16:6 – “But at the place which Yahweh thy Elohim
<< shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice
<< the passover at even ["ba ereb"],
<< at the going down of the sun,
<< at the season that thou camest forth out of
<< What does the phrase "going down of the sun" mean?
<< The same Hebrew construction is found in Josh.8:29 –
<<… "And the king of Ai he hanged on a tree until eventide [ereb]:
<< as soon as the sun was down ,
<< Joshua commanded that they should take his carcase down
<< from the tree, and cast it at the entering of the gate of the city,
<< and raise thereon a great heap of stones…>>
The author also quotes,
<< Josh.10:26,27 , "... and they were hanging upon the trees
<< until the evening [ereb]. And it came to pass
<< at the time of the going down of the sun,
<< that Joshua commanded, and they took them down off the trees,
<< and cast them into the cave wherein they had been hid,
<< and laid great stones in the cave's mouth…>>
He then claims,
<< The underlined words in both verses
<< are the equivalent Hebrew of
<< "at the going down" in Deut.16:6.
<< Notice one verse says the sun was already down
<< and the other verse says it was going down.
<< To understand what the status of the sun really was,
<< we must look at the commandment that led Joshua to order
<< the king's body taken down. It is found in Deut.21:22,23…
<< Deut.21:22,23 - "And if a man committed a sin worthy of death,
<< and he be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
<< His body shall not remain all night upon the tree,
<< but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day ;
<< (for he that is hanged is accursed of Elohim;)…>>
The author then asserts,
<<… Joshua was obeying Yahweh's commandment … -
<< The body had to be buried the same day it was hung on the tree.
<< That means it had to be buried before sunset.
We wish to differ on strength of several grounds.
First we must stress the fact we agree with the unknown author on the Nisan 14 (end of day) slaughter of the Passover lamb, and its eating in the night of Nisan 15. But this very Passover-arrangement is in contradiction with his ideas on the meaning of the Deuteronomy instruction as well as with both the Joshua passages.
Deut.21:22,23 - "... if a man be put to death ... and thou hang him on a tree, His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day” – meaning he must be buried the current day that had begun with “night” - during which the body had been hanging on the tree. It implies the body had to be removed from the tree before sunrise with the view to its interment during the following daylight!
Thus Joseph of Arimathea removed Jesus’ body from the tree far into night and very probably only before sunrise. “Thou shalt in any wise bury him that day” – which exactly Joseph did: during daylight of “that day”, after the day on which Jesus had been crucified.
<Shemesh> in Josh.8:29 is translated “sun” in the KJV, and per se means the rising of the sun - Gn.19:23, Josh.12:1 and many other places. (It is also used for other times of sunlight, e.g. Josh.10:12.)
The words supplied in Josh.8:29, “and as soon as … was down” - because the opposite of <ereb> - should be: “and as soon as the sun began to rise” <shemesh>. And the words supplied in 10:27, “going down”, should be, “at the time of the dawning / rising of the sun” <shemesh>.
See the close nexus between “east” – mizrach, and “morning” – shemesh, in the combination “early dawning” – mizrach shemesh. Compare the s-h-a- in shachar, “morning” / “dawn”, and in shakam, “to awake” / “rise”, with the s-h-e- in shemesh, “sunrise”. Then also compare the m-i-s-h- in mishchar, “morning”, and in mishap – “dawning of day”, with the –m-e-s-h in shemesh, “sunrise”. Now put the two together, and it becomes s-h-a + m-e-s-h, then becomes she-mesh. Then just to confirm this type of combination, see Dn.6:19, shepharpara, “very early in the morning”. Eth eber and shemesh it is clear, are the opposites of day-time and night-time, respectively “afternoon” / “towards sunset”, and, ‘afternight’ / “towards sunrise”!
Therefore in the case of Joshua 10:26,27, instead of to translate, "... and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening [ereb]”, rather translate, "... and they hanged them upon the trees while the sun was setting [ereb]. And it came to pass that at the time of the rising of the sun <shemesh>, Joshua commanded, and they took them down off the trees.” <Eth ereb> indicates the time of day of the hanging; <shemesh> the time of night of Jushua’s commanding.
We are compelled to conclude, that the phrases in the two texts, namely, “as soon as the sun was rising” <shemesh>, and, “at the time of the rising of the sun” <shemesh>, are NO equivalent Hebrew of "at the going down" <eth ereb / ereb> in Deut.16:6, where it is the rendering of the word bo, and, meaningfully, is used in conjunction with the statement, “at the sea” – which is to the west of the land and just the opposite of shemesh, “sunrise” in the east!
Joshua was obeying Yahweh's commandment. The body / bodies had to be buried the day after they were put to the tree - after the night during which they “remained on the tree”. There is absolutely no possibility or implication the bodies could have been removed from the tree “before sunset” before “all (this) night”. And that means the dead had to be buried in the daylight following the night = “that same day”.
There would have been no sense in having the bodies hung just before sunset only to remove them, again just before sunset. Therefore, instead of translating like the KJV, “And the king of Ai he hanged on a tree until eventide [ereb]”, rather translate, “And the king of Ai he hanged on a tree before sunset [ereb]: and as soon as the sun dawned, <shemesh> Joshua commanded they should take his carcase down.” In both events stone-mounts of such hugeness were built over the graves they “remained unto this day” – an immense task scheduled certainly for daylight and impossibly for night-time.
Indeed, just so, Joseph was obeying Yahweh's commandment. Jesus’ body had to be buried the day after they hanged Him - in fact after the night in which the body “remained on the tree”. There is absolutely no possibility or implication the body of Jesus could have been removed from the tree “before sunset” of the day before - not before “all night” of the day that afterwards did begin - He “shall not remain all night”, but “before the sun had risen” shall be taken “down off the tree”, and “that (same) day” be buried.
That would bring the exact and full fulfilment “according to the Scriptures the third day” of the typology of the Passover as prophesied: Deut.16:6 – “But at the place which Yahweh thy Elohim shall choose to place his name in (i.e., in Jerusalem, in Jesus Christ!), there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even ["ba ereb"], at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt.”
Then, o sinner, they lifted Him upon the tree “before the sun did set” and before “it was evening”, “so that the Scriptures might be fulfilled”: That was the sacrifice of Him. “His body shall not remain all night (Mk.15:42, Mt.27:57) upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury Him that day”. “And after this Joseph of Arimathea came ... he took the body down ... and the women beheld how his body was laid ... and the sun declined towards the Sabbath Day.”
Private Bag 43
on a fourth day?
There are mainly four (or five) theories around, on which days of the week Jesus was crucified and resurrected.
………………………………Died 3 pm………Grave 3 pm………Resu 3 pm………………
A is the
Wednesday crucifixion theory:
Both Crucifixion and Burial before sunset on Wednesday, Resurrection while sunset Saturday.
B is the same theory, but with Resurrection on Sunday morning before sunrise.
C is the Thursday crucifixion theory with both Resurrection and Burial before sunset on Thursday, and Resurrection on Sunday morning before sunrise.
D is the traditional Friday Crucifixion theory with both Resurrection and Burial before sunset on Friday, and Resurrection on Sunday morning before sunrise.
E is the Passover-crucifixion appointment, with Crucifixion on Thursday morning and Death at 3 pm; and burial during the next day on Friday; Resurrection on Saturday afternoon.
The Wednesday theory overlaps 5, or 6 days, depending on which reckoning of day is used; but always at least five days or portions thereof. It cannot end with in the third day.
Thursday / Sunday theory requires 4 or 5 days depending on which reckoning of day is used; but always at least 4 days. It cannot end with in the third day
Traditional Friday crucifixion theory, has two nights and one and a quarter days.
Only Thursday-Sabbath Crucifixion and Resurrection Appointment, beginning with Wednesday night at the hour and Jesus’ descending to hell through suffering and dying, ends after three nights, and, “on the third day according to the Scriptures”.
The above is about the most ridiculous, contrived mismash [GE:
Sic.], I have ever seen!
FTR, I can reckon time by both the Jewish and/or the Roman methods!
‘Most ridiculous contrived mishmash’,
dear Ed Sutton, is this one, I must agree!
Have you recognised whose it is?
“Have you recognised whose it is?” (Sic.) I do not know what exactly is being attempted, here, nor do I even care, or will I bother to attempt to decipher it.
“ “Have you recognised whose it is?” (Sic.)” – I do not know what is wrong here? what did you use ‘sic’ for?
‘FTR’ (whatever it stands for though ‘I can reckon’ its meaning), when I document a discussion, I usually try to correct spelling mistakes. But here I’m making an exception.
[Sic. GE] occurs when
this supposed group of five allegedly different chronologies (with four
variational explanations) are all superimposed, one on top of another, to show
your purported point, by the differences.
FTR, the points I have made are supportable by Scripture, IMO, without having to read alleged allegory and typology (where Scripture does not give any) into it. Others who have different views believe the same as I, as to the points they make being supportable. I assume you believe your points are supportable, as well. I have seen such presented on these discussions with a range of days of the Crucifixion from Wednesday through Friday, as we reckon time, and a range of the time of the resurrection from Saturday afternoon thru early Sunday morning, again as we reckon time.
It is not necessary to resort to hyperbole and ridicule or misrepresentation of another’s view to allegedly have been deternmined [Sic. GE] by the Roman Catholic church, such as my own view that the resurrection occurred sometime before the dawning or early light of “the first day of the week”, to present these, IMO, especially when one can easily see through your own thinly-veiled agenda of having the resurrection occur “on Gods Sabbath”, which you have openly admitted espousing. I do not care what the Roman Catholic church says, nor have read anything theological about this from any Roman Catholic theologue wannabe, at any time. But I do fairly well with English, I think (My alter-ego is known as Langauge Cop.), [Sic. GE] and can fight my way through a bit of Greek, with a fair amount of difficulty.
I have read the texts (all of them) that directly deal with this question in multiple English versions, more than once. I find that the Bible does shed a lot of light on the commentary made about it.
Dear Ed Sutton, You cannot kill this subject; you cannot make facts disappear; you cannot cope with your own conscience. May God be merciful to you. But thanks for your comments; they cannot be improved on; yet I have allowed myself a few hiccups in brackets to highlight some of its most excellent points.
I am not attempting to kill anything. I have posted previously as to this sequence of events, where you and I disagree in interpretation of the time frame. But mentioning “5 days”, let alone “6 days”, is a ridiculous stretch, at best. Not one person, other than you, has been able to come up with “5 days”, or “6 days”, in any event, even from a “Wednesday” crucifixion, nor could you, except by simultaneously combining “Roman time”, “Jewish time”, the phrasing of such, then adding to it, the contemporary speaking of days collectively, and then drawing out from that amalgamation, a contrived reckoning, solely for the purpose of disparaging it.
We haven’t got previous discussions in front of us; you confuse everybody.
Any possible scenario from approximately 3 pm on a Wednesday afternoon, until approximately slightly before 6 AM on Sunday morning, covers a time span of a maximum of nearing 87 hours, or nine hours less than is possible to get into a 5th 24 hr. day, let alone a 6th one. This little contrived scenario also fails to take into account the more than 81 hrs., or almost another 3 1/2 days remaining to get back around to the following Wednesday at 3 pm, needed to conclude one week. There are still, now as then, only 7 days and 168 hours in a week, and even Joshua and Hezekiah, on their best day, did not see any 80 hr. day!
(Them’s the facts!! And they are not disappearing, but lying right there in front of you, in front of all!!)
Although apparently in them, Gerhard Ebersoehn can still manage to see an 80 hr day.
I do have to acknowledge some of the most creative isogesis, I have ever seen in my entire life, however, in this attempt to prove a point. Frankly, I am not the one who should have the conscience problem, here.
Nevermind, it would be pointless.
FTR- Resurrection was on the 1st day.
Living for Him who Died for me -- Allan V.
“For God to know and judge us by our heart leaves us with no hope at all.” -- nunatak
Ed Sutton, You
may use any adjectives. It impresses me not a bit. And again, keep up your
comments; they effectively explain “right there in front of all” what I intended to show, and remove
any doubt others may have had as to its implications. I now don’t have to
explain how it is possible, or, how impossible it is – except with “the most
Dear Allen, Living for Him who Died for me -- but only o Lord, don’t remind me of the Scriptures; do not I pray, show me otherwise I am accustomed to the traditions and esteem of men, and the comforts of society. Yea, I would follow thee in hunger and want, only not under threat of the Word.
Congratulations! Nice ad hominem in the blue type! It would
appear that the facts do not impress you, either.
And you expect people to take your seriously when you act this immature?? As I said it would be pointless and you proved my point perfectly.
Ed Sutton, “facts”!? Facts would require we all burn our
Bibles and become Roman Catholics and accept the Sunday resurrection tradition
or be anatomised. Only Ed Sutton’s theory
holds! Without facts to stand on except those implied in his attack on my
methods above. Just not going against the norm: overstep Sunday-sacredness and
overstep all bounds of Christian behaviour!
Ich und mein Dachshündchen, wir gehen spazieren nun!
Don’t walk too far, and tell your dog hello for me
Thanks Samuel Owen, this is really encouraging, “For God to know and judge us by our heart leaves us with no hope at all.” I feel a lot better!
On my and my four legged friend’s stroll I thought, Help Ed Sutton to sort out his own theory for himself, to see how long the day is he has reached! So here is it,
Beginning (where Ed Sutton began) sunset Wednesday:
To sunset Thursday, Crucifixion and Burial………………=24 hours;
To sunset Friday, In Grave……………………………………….=24 hours;
To sunset Saturday, In Grave……………………………………=24 hours;
To sunrise Sunday morning, Resurrection……………….=12 hours.
“The third day, according to the Scriptures”; “The third day, I finish!”; “After two days”; “In the third day”; “On the third day”; “With the third day”. Ed Sutton says, the third day must be on Sunday, and must be, Sunday (“Absolutely not! The resurrection was not on the Sabbath” (of the Commandment), I remember his words.); and I say, but then it is on the fourth day; which he says, is my “most creative isogesis”; so then how can Ed Sutton’s ‘third day’ not be 36 hours long? So then how can his ‘third day’, not be the calendar’s, fourth day? (In another discussion Ed Sutton told us he indicates his ‘third day’, “on the calender”? [Sic.]) ‘Known as Langauge Cop’ Ed Sutton’s ‘best day’ is a good match for ‘even Joshua and Hezekiahs’!
I may not be as knowledgeable as some with regard to the times/ dates / no. of days etc. but - I know that GOD RAISED HIM and that HE LIVES and that is enough for me . Living, He loved me; dying, He saved me; buried, He carried my sins far away, rising He justified freely forever: one day He`s coming: oh glorious day.
………………………………Died 3 pm………Grave 3 pm………Resu 3 pm………………
This is junk.
Scripture is to be believed, this is not.
In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre
9Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
1Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.
Indeed! Scripture is to be believed, this not— not in its entirety.
This from it, is what is ‘junk’: .......
But this from it, is ‘Scripture’— that should be believed! .....
………………………………Died 3 pm………Grave 3 pm………Resu 3 pm………………
Which is your choice?
Now, quoting DonnaA who quoted, “Matt 28:1, In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week ...” Read: “In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week ...”. It still says exactly what “In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week” says, only I have put the stress on better places; you put it on the wrong words. The best way would have been:— “Matt 28:1, In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week ...” Read: “In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week ...”, so that one might clearly see, not the First, but, the Sabbath Day. (Phew! I’m sure my granddaughter of pre-school age will understand!)
Mary Magdalene ...”— Read: “went
/set out Mary Magdalene ...”; Why?:— “to
see the sepulchre”. Did they see the tomb? No, they did not. How do we
know they did not? This very verse tells why:— “Behold! There was a great earthquake.” And there were
other reasons; more than one!
“... as it began to dawn ...”— See .....
This is what it says in all of my KJV versions, “In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week.” “As it began to dawn towards”; would indicate it was the eve of the first DAY, (night of the first day.)
Correct: “As it began to dawn towards; would indicate it was the eve of the first DAY”!; even, ‘“As it began to dawn towards” would indicate it was the eve of the First-Day and of the night of the First Day— in other words, afternoon Sabbath before sunset. As simple as your own words!
But read what
you have said YOURSELF!: “In the end OF the sabbath, as it began to
dawn TO-wards the first day of the week”.
‘Dawn’: When was the ‘dawn’ of the twenty first century? It was the last part of the twentieth century? Of course it was! ‘Dawn’ as the last part of night-before sunrise, that is ‘dawn’ of the light-day. That does not correlate with the division of the ‘Bible-day’. The ‘Bible-day’ begins with sunset, and therefore the ‘dawn’ of the 24-hour-night-and-daylight-day of Bible-reckoning, is the last part of the day-before it, which is the afternoon – the after 12 pm to sunset part – of the previous day before the next full day-cycle of night-then-day following. ...
... which is exactly the same thing as ‘dawn’! Collins: “eve” / “even” - “The evening or day before ...”; “evening” – “the latter part of the day ...”. (‘Evening’ developed a modern meaning to indicate the first part of night. That is STILL, miles apart from the next ‘morning’!)
Now to further
quote DonnaA who quoted Mark 16:9 Now
when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he
appeared first to Mary Magdalene ...
Luke 24:1, Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices ...”
I’ll answer in the same way, and hand back to you your own words, “Now when Jesus was risen, he early the first day of the week, appeared first to Mary Magdalene ... Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they, came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared.” Do you once read that “On the First Day”, Jesus rose from the dead? Not once! Each time, you read that He appeared, or that the women, ‘came’.
It really does not matter which way you see it.
As long as it is ‘my way’.
It really does not matter. A Thursday crucifixion, or Friday, neither violates a Sunday resurrection. That is really the most important! part of the resurrection account.
That it doesn’t ‘violate a Sunday resurrection’?!
The Bible states plainly! the first day of the week was the
resurrection, to say otherwise discredits Gods word, and that is no small
thing. Personally I would not waste my time, arguing for either. I don’t know
where the author of the article I posted got his dating information, but there
are ways providing you have the right year. There are different opinions on the
year also. The important part is that you believe he died for out sin, and was
resurrected to justify our faith in him (the proof of Gods acceptance of his
sacrifice). Apart from faith, there is no record other than Gods word, that it
even occurred. The Bible tells us the “Just shall walk by faith, and not by
site”. Besides trying to date set any occurrence, is contrary to Gods word.
I really have never asked for any proof, and never will, I just simply accept that there is a Jesus (son of God), and that he died for my sin. I do that by faith only!
Ok, I did a lot of research on this, including my own. I had never
given this much thought, until a thread came up on another board. Read this
article carefully, when I posted it on the other forum, someone thought it
affirmed their Wednesday theory. But in fact it does not, but is a Thursday
A lot of homework was done on this article, and the evidence is
overwhelming. At the end he has some other interesting comments/ideas also. So
bring your lunch if you have to. The article is long, so read it slowly. In
fact it is so long I had to post it in two posts.
In order to understand the significance of the Jewish feasts, we
must comprehend their purpose and timing. The most complete description of the
feasts is found in Leviticus 23. Each of the feasts have both a historic and
prophetic significance. They celebrate a historical event in
1. Passover: [Ex. 12:1-14 & Lev. 23:4,5] On the 10th day of the first month, Nisan, [roughly equivalent to April on our calendar], every family of
2. Unleavened Bread: [Lev. 23:6-8] The day following Passover, the 15th of Nisan, began the feast of Unleavened bread. This feast covered seven days, from the 15th to the 21st of Nisan. The first and last days, [15th & 21st], were “High Sabbath” days, although they do not necessarily fall on the weekly Sabbath. “High Sabbath” days are mandatory rest days which occur during some feast days. They are identified in Lev. 23:7, 8, 21, 24, 27, 28, 32, 35, 36, 39. Just as with the weekly Sabbath, the day before any “High Sabbath” is a “preparation day.” This means Passover, the 14th, is also the “preparation day” for the “High Sabbath” on the 15th, [see: John 18:28, 19:14,31]. The feast of Unleavened Bread celebrates the journey of the children of
3. Firstfruits: [Lev. 23:9-14] During the seven day Feast of Unleavened Bread fell a Sunday. In the year of the crucifixion, Sunday fell on the 18th of Nisan, three days after Jesus was put in the tomb. On this Sunday, called the Feast of Firstfruits, each Israelite family brought a single bundle of barley to the
4. Pentecost: [Lev. 23:15-21] From the feast of Firstfruits, the Jews were to count seven Sabbaths, [49 days]. The Sunday following the seventh Sabbath, was the Feast of Pentecost, [which means “fiftieth”]. This feast commemorated the giving of the Law to Moses on
The first four feasts were fulfilled by Jesus both symbolically and literally at His first coming. The last three will be fulfilled by Jesus at His second coming. Since the first four feasts were fulfilled on the very days God commanded His people to celebrate them, it is reasonable to conclude that the remaining three feasts will also be fulfilled on the actual feast days as well.
5. Feast of Trumpets: [Lev. 23:23-25] God commanded
6. The Day of Atonement: [Lev. 23:26-32] The Feast of Trumpets is followed by ten days called by modern Jews, “the days of awe.” This is a time of national repentance for
7. The Feast of Tabernacles: [Lev. 23:33-43] Five days after the Day of Atonement is the Feast of Tabernacles. From the 15th to the 22nd of the seventh month was a time of the greatest rejoicing. It was the festival of all festivals.
There is another day that is celebrated by
22 And it was at
23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon’s porch. (KJV)
That Channukah is always 75 days after The Day of Atonement may be related to an interesting prophecy in Daniel.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
1,335 days is exactly 75 days more than the 1260 days that Antichrist will reign. So, if the Antichrist is destroyed on the Day of Atonement, then the extra 75 days lands us directly on the first day of Channukah. It seems likely this has to do with the rededication of the
Since Jesus fulfilled the first four feasts on the actual feast days, we can conclude that He will fulfil the last three in the same manner. This means that the battle of Armageddon will likely be on the Day of Atonement, the 10th day of the seventh month. Could the rapture be the same day? Or, could it be perhaps 10 days earlier on the Feast of Trumpets?
I’m quoting Samuel Owen who quoted, “His body laid in
the tomb for the first three days of this feast, from the 15th through the 17th
of Nisan”. As for this quoted statement, I challenge anyone
to present one Scripture in support of it. The statement is one big mistake
composed of various inaccuracies. I immediately realised, same old story all
over. The author’s ‘lot of research’ and ‘homework’, despite.
I have said
these things so many times before, it actually tires me physically to repeat
them. Therefore please do me and maybe yourself the favour, and download at no
cost whatsoever from http://www.biblestudents.co.za
every imaginable aspect of the issue. There are complete books, but also short
extracts and articles. The wrong things receive attention and against it, in
contrast, the right thing. Here’s one of the wrong:
The Thursday Crucifixion – Sunday Resurrection Theory
I’ll post you
one page, I have found helped most people a lot.
Please let me know if it has been of benefit to you?
From the first to “the third day according to the Scriptures”. . .
. . . the
first day, 14
Nisan, “Preparation of the Passover”, Thursday, begins :
“Evening” – Preparation for, and the Lords Supper
●Mk.14:12, 17, Mt26:17, 20; Lk.22:7, 13-14; Jn.13:1-17:26
“Night” – Anguish, Betrayal, Denial
Mk.14:26-42, Jn.18:1-27 (Mt.12:40 – retrospective prophecy)
“Early” – Trial, Delivered, Way to Cross
Middle Day – Crucifixion, Mocking, Darkness,
Mk.15:25, 29, 33, Jn.19:23-29
“The ninth hour”, Afternoon – Died, deserted
Mt.27:46, Jn.19:30, Lk.23:48
. . . the
second day, 15
Nisan, Passover Feast, “The Fore-Sabbath”, Friday, begins:
“Evening” – Jews, “after this”, Joseph
●Mk.15:42, Mt.27:57, Lk.23:52; Jn.19:31-40,
“Night” – Took the body down, prepared
Mk.15:42-46b, Mt.27:58-59, Lk.23:53a Jn.19:32-40
“Afternoon” – Buried
Mk.15:46c-47, Mt.27:60-61, Lk.23:53b-56b, Jn.19:41-42
. . . “the third day”, 16 Nisan, First Sheaf Wave Offering, “Sabbath”, begins :
“Began to rest”
“Afternoon” – Resurrection
Only Matthew 28:1-4 (Mk.16:9 – implied)
. . . the fourth day, 17 Nisan, Sunday, begins :
“The Sabbath past”
Only Mark 16:1
“Early darkness”, first sight of opened grave
Only John 20:1-2
“Deep morning”, planned visit, Marys, Salome and other women
Only Luke 24:1-11
“Very early dawn”, Marys and Salome affirm
Only Mark 16:2 further (Lk.24:24 – implied)
“Early”, Sunrise, first Appearance to Mary only
Only John 20:11-18 (Mk.16:9 – reference)
Early daylight – second appearance, to other women
Only Matthew 28:5-15
“Afternoon”, Appearance to two “disciples”
Only Luke 24:13-32, (Mk.16:12-13 – implied)
. . . the fifth day, 18 Nisan, Monday, begins :
“Being evening (that day having been the First Day)”, upper room
Lk.23:33 further, Jn.20:19 further, Mk.16:14
“So shall the Son of Man have been in the heart of the earth for three days and for three nights” when raised from the dead “for a sign”! Matthew 12:40.
I quote Samuel Owen who quoted, “His body laid in
the tomb for the first three days of this feast, from the 15th through the 17th
Is “This feast” --
(1) The whole month of Abib? “Observe the month of Abib”? Obviously not.
Is “This feast” --
(2) The whole
of ‘Passover’, as ‘Feast’? The ‘Season’ of ‘Passover Feast’, including the “Preparation of the
Passover” and / or its ‘sabbath’?
Obviously not, for this statement isn’t speaking of Nisan 14.
Is “This feast” --
(3) The first
day of ‘Unleavened Bread Feast’? Possibly; but only as the Feast of Unleavened
Bread Eat, the first day of which
eating of unleavened bread, was Nisan 15,
yes! But ‘Unleavened Bread Feast’ – as a
whole –, may also include its “Day of de-Leaven” / “when
they removed leaven”. (And if they did not, they had to be removed from the
People by death!) Unleavened Bread ‘Feast’
as a whole – “from the 15th through the 17th of Nisan” – also included “Preparation of Passover” Nisan 14.
Mk14:12, Mt26:17, Lk22:7, Jn19:14.
Nisan 14 was the day “They had to slaughter the passover (lamb)”, and, had to “remove leaven from all the land”! Here’s where one’s count of “This feast” and, the ‘three days and three nights’ of Mt12:40 should start— with this day with its beginning with sunset -- not from Nisan 15 in the night of which the lamb was eaten; not together and while at the same time the first unleavened bread was being eaten. The right day to start the (whole) ‘Passover-Feast’ with, is Nisan 14, and not Nisan 15. The right day to start ‘The-Unleavened-Bread’ with, is Nisan 15, and not Nisan 14.
That is the first point.
Next point: “So shall the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth, three days and three nights.” Where does being “In the heart of the earth”, begin? In other words, What constitutes, being “in the heart of the earth”?
“His body laid in the tomb for the first three days of this feast, from the 15th through the 17th of Nisan”? Does ‘His body laid in the tomb’ mean, Jesus’ having been ‘In the heart of the earth’?
“In the heart of the earth” is symbolic language, so don’t expect a literal “body laid in the tomb” its meaning, for it is not its meaning, because its meaning is not literal, but figuratively is, “in the heart of the earth”! The only thing that could fulfil the true meaning of being “in the heart of the earth”, will correspond with Jonah’s experience when literally in the fish he spiritually ( or figuratively) had been “in the heart of the earth”. One cannot live through something while being dead; so being “in the heart of the earth”, cannot have been when Jesus had been in the grave, dead. Jonah said he descended as it were alive, into hell. In what does Jesus’ experience correspond to Jonah’s experience? In his suffering the pangs of death, Jesus truly tasted of hell’s anguish alive. Jesus’ being ‘in the heart of the earth’ was His having tasted of hell’s anguish alive— “My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?” Alive— from that “My hour has come” – His ‘hour’ that was also the “hour of wicked men”. Jesus’ spiritual anguish marks the beginning of His being ‘in the heart of the earth’; He had to bear the hour of God’s wrath on the wickedness of all men.
Of course his physical suffering was one aspect of this, Jesus’ spiritual suffering. But the first day of the three days within which Jesus would be crucified and would suffer death, would begin with this His ‘hour’, in that He would “glorify” His Father, willingly and consciously – working towards its fulfilment “according to the Scriptures” of the Law! The day of Nisan 14 is marked with this hour specifically as ‘Passover’; not Nisan 15. Nisan 15 is marked with something else as specifically ‘Passover’, which was its assignment to be ‘Feast’ of the eating of the Passover lamb, together with the first eating of or ‘feasting’ on unleavened bread – its ‘Feast’, called the ‘sabbath’ of the Passover and ‘sabbath-of-Unleavened-Bread-Feast(-High-Day)’. Nisan 14 was the first day of the ‘eight-days-Feast-of-Passover’; Nisan 15 was the first day of the ‘seven-days-Passover-Feast-of-Unleavened-Bread’. Any explanation of the Passover’s dates and days that not first of all explains the differences between Nisan 14 and Nisan 15, without further consideration or fear to miss out on something valuable, can be disposed of as erroneous and futile.
Quoting Samuel Owen who quoted another, “On the evening of the 14th the Passover lamb was killed, cooked, and eaten during the night.”
This is not so simple! It here seems very simple because the author speaks as though from Exodus only, without having paid attention to what the rest of the Old Testament Scriptures say on the subject. It amounts to this, that it is true that “On the evening of the 14th the Passover lamb was killed”, but it is true while “evening” is correctly understood for ‘afternoon’, first of all, to distinguish between what was done before sunset and what was done after sunset; what, during daylight, and what, during night-time. Because the lamb in fact was “cooked, and eaten during the night” after sunset. Now this ‘eating’ or ‘feasting’ of the lamb during the night, is in all the Old Testament except Exodus, expressly stated done on “the fifteenth day of the First Month” – never, on Nisan 14, as in Exodus only.
This is a most basic and most important distinction one must never loose sight of (but always is overseen and deemed as of no consequence, either by ignorance, laziness, or prejudice). On Nisan 14 the lamb was killed – on the very day “they removed leaven from all the land”. So Nisan 14 before sunset had to be the day Jesus was crucified and died on. On Nisan 15 after sunset, “during night”, “the lamb was cooked and eaten” – and the process of its assimilation with the earth or back to the earth, was begun. The lamb’s eating was the beginning of the process, and the removal of the remains of it out of the land of Egypt was the continuing of its process of assimilation back to the earth; and its burning was the completion of its process of re-assimilation with the earth, or, of its ‘interment’— “dust to dust” – symbolic or figurative of Jesus’ interment or burial! This was Nisan 15 throughout, no longer, Nisan 14 as in Exodus!
Jesus could not be buried on the same day He was crucified and died on! It would be contrary its ‘Passover-appointment’. Therefore the quoted sentence, “On the evening of the 14th the Passover lamb was killed, cooked, and eaten during the night” from no point of view can be acceptable, either, meant it, “On the evening of the 14th the Passover lamb was killed” and “during the night” it was “cooked, and eaten”, or, everything “during the night”, as it stands, “On the evening of the 14th the Passover lamb was killed, cooked, and eaten during the night”. The lamb was never “killed, cooked, and eaten during the night”. It is a climactic conclusive lie of this ‘lot of research and homework’. Throw it in your rubbish bin!
I’m quoting Samuel Owen who quoted, “The day following Passover, the 15th of Nisan, began the feast of Unleavened bread. This feast covered seven days, from the 15th to the 21st of Nisan.”
Yes, and no. The ‘Passover Feast’, ‘covered’ more than just “seven days from the 15th to the 21st of Nisan”.
The ‘Passover Feast’, ‘covered’ also Nisan 14 – ‘covered’ also what this statement calls “Passover” as such.
As much as “this feast covered seven days from the 15th to the 21st of Nisan”, “this feast” also ‘covered’ eight days from Nisan 14 to the 21st of Nisan. Nisan 14 as much as for being the day of the slaying of the lamb, for being the day of the removal of leaven— ‘by ordinance’ –, belonged to ‘the Passover’! ‘Unleaven’ or ‘remove leaven’ and ‘slaughter lamb’ – Nisan 14 – equally belong to ‘the Feast of Unleavened Bread’ and ‘the Feast of Passover’. Just like any day of the eat of Unleavened Bread from the 15th to the 21st of Nisan belonged to “the Passover”, did the “Preparation of Passover” Nisan 14, belong to “the Passover”.
Quoting Samuel Owen who quoted, “[15th &
21st], were “High Sabbath” days, although they do not necessarily fall on the
weekly Sabbath. “High Sabbath” days are mandatory rest days which occur during
some feast days.” Only keep
in mind “mandatory rest” is a relative idea; it does not exclude all and
any labour, physical or not. In fact, Nisan 15 High Day of Passover, being
‘Passover’s sabbath’, was the day upon which God commanded the Israelites to
Quoting Samuel Owen who quoted, “His body [His flesh] was laid in the tomb just before sunset, when the “High Sabbath” of the Feast of Unleavened Bread began.” Concerning this ‘question’ see above, p 90-91, “this Feast”, above, re ‘in the heart of the earth’. Here, I pay attention to “laid in the tomb just before sunset’. In stead of repeating all the arguments, I shall only reiterate the outcome of those arguments, that the true texts of both the Hebrew and the Greek only confirm what is found in Dt21:23 even as translated, that the body “shall not remain on the tree all night”, but shall be removed before the sun has risen, or, literally, before “light / sunrise”, and not before sunset or darkness.
Yea, what is interesting in this very case at hand, the author while contradicting himself, confirms what I say, saying, “...before sunset, when the “High Sabbath” of the Feast of Unleavened Bread began”. Now when does a ‘day’ (of night and day according to the Bible now) ‘begin’? It begins as soon as the sun has set – not as soon as the sun has risen! Therefore how could the body be laid in the tomb before sunset yet when the day had begun? It doesn’t make sense because the whole concept and all its parts are plainly wrong. The correct facts are that the body was taken down in that beginning night of Nisan 15, before sunrise, and was laid in the tomb the same day after, so that Joseph could close the grave about three o’clock Friday “afternoon”— perfectly fulfilling the prophetic significance of both Dt21:23 and the Passover Law.
This overseen division between Day of Crucifixion and Day of Interment found in Mk14:12, Mt26:17 and Lk22:7 (see p 89 above), is surely the biggest flaw in all the known ‘chronologies’ of the ‘Passion week’. It is a trait of especially Ed Sutton’s theory, seeing he too places Crucifixion and Burial on the same day before sunset. How he gets past Mk.14:12/17, Mt26:17/20, Lk.22:7/13-14, Jn.13:1/17:26, only he will know or could explain.
Quoting Samuel Owen who
quoted, “Firstfruits: [Lev. 23:9-14] During the seven day Feast of
Unleavened Bread fell a Sunday.” Now this is the biggest nonsense out, and
giving “Lev. 23:9-14”, is most assuming.
Can’t these people think of anything genuine? In answer, I present the following, obtained from www.truthontheweb.org (Not
that I agree with all they teach). But this is a snip from a good article.
The Morrow After the Sabbath
“And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the Sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete: Even unto the morrow after the seventh Sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.” (Leviticus 23:15,16)
Now, those who hold to a Nisan 16th
date for beginning the count, whether they reckon by actual new moons or the
CRC, teach that the word translated “Sabbath” in verse 16 (shabbath--Strongs #7676) should actually
be translated as “week.” Such a translation is necessary for this type of
Pentecost reckoning due to the fact that Sivan 6 does not always occur on the
day after a weekly Sabbath (nor do Sivan 5 or 7, for that matter) as required
by Leviticus 23:16. But, if shabbath
should be translated “week” in verse 16, it should likewise be so translated in
verse 15 regarding which day to begin the count. Such a systematic theology
though damages their doctrine for it does away with Nisan 16 as a starting
point (since with such a translation, the count does not need to begin on a day after a Sabbath
But, is it even true that shabbath should be translated as “week”?
7676 Shabbath “intermission, i.e., (spec.) the Sabbath.” (Strongs Hebrew and Aramaic Dictionary of the Old Testament)
The fact is, shabbath is never rendered “week” in Scripture, nor is it ever
used to refer to the first day of the Feast of Unleavens as those who hold to a
Nisan 16 Elevation Sheaf Day propose.
Now, some may ask, isn’t Pentecost also called the “Feast of Weeks” though?
“Seven weeks shalt thou number unto thee: begin to number the seven weeks from such time as thou beginnest to put the sickle to the corn. And thou shalt keep the Feast of Weeks unto the LORD thy God with a tribute of a freewill offering of thine hand, which thou shalt give unto the LORD thy God, according as the LORD thy God hath blessed thee.” (Deuteronomy 16:9,10)
Yes, Pentecost is the Feast of Weeks, however, the word translated “weeks” in
the Scripture above (as well as Exodus 34:22; Numbers 28:26; and II Chronicles
8:13) is NOT shabbath, but rather it is shabuah:
7620 Shabuah “lit. sevened, i.e., a week.” (Strongs Hebrew and Aramaic Dictionary of the Old Testament)
Shavuah is the Hebrew word that means “week.” If God intended for Pentecost to be reckoned without regard to the weekly Sabbaths, He would have inspired Moses to use this word, instead of Shabbath, in Leviticus 23:15,16.
For those who contend with the Strongs lexicon definitions given above:
Search the Holy Scripture to find wherein “Shabbath” is used in reference to a week and not the weekly Sabbath itself.
Search the Holy Scripture to find where the first day of the Feast of Unleavens is ever referred to as the “Shabbath” [Leviticus 23:15 & 16 both use the definitive article (i.e., “the”--as opposed to “a”) in reference to Shabbath]. What is the only other reference to “shabbath” in Leviticus 23 prior to its use in verses 15 & 16? (the answer is found in verse 3). This contextual relation thus further shows what word (“the Sabbath” as opposed to “the week”) and what day (“the Sabbath” as opposed to “the first day of the Feast of Unleavens”) was meant by “shabbath” in verses 15 & 16.”
Quoting Samuel Owen who quoted, “In the year of the crucifixion, Sunday fell on the 18th of Nisan, three days after Jesus was put in the tomb.”
Dear Samuel Owen, you haven’t given us information on how or where this author got his ‘facts’ from! But I’ll tell you, he sucked it from somebody else’s thumb – not even from his own – both these statements, as a matter of ‘fact’!
(1) On what grounds the taking for granted ‘fact’, “In the year of the crucifixion, Sunday fell on the 18th of Nisan”? In which year was that? You are a gullible soul! You need to put in a lot more research, brother, this writer is deceiving you. He may call himself a Christian, but he teaches lies.
Consult ‘The Lord’s Day in the Covenant of Grace’, Book 1/1 for far more likely options. Personally, I reckon 30 AD the year of our Lord’s death and resurrection. Read Paragraph 220.127.116.11.18.104.22.168, ‘Possible Years of Christ’s Birth’, in which year according to the best of my knowledge the Bible as well as astrometric calculation, place 18th of Nisan on Monday. Jesus wasn’t raised on Monday.
(2) You above have told us, this quoted “article ... is a Thursday (Crucifixion) description”. According to you people three days after Jesus on the day that He was crucified was put in the tomb, would be Thursday “Nisan 14” (day one); Nisan 15 would be Friday (day two); Nisan 16 would be Sabbath (day three); Nisan 17, would be Sunday (day four). Jesus rose from the dead “the third day” – not, the fourth.
(3) The Scriptures for definite teach Jesus was put in the tomb on Friday. As I have shown you and you me, Friday was Nisan 15 – which gives Friday day one; Nisan 16 the weekly Sabbath day two; Nisan 17 Sunday day three “after Jesus was put in the tomb” – but, four days after He was crucified! How can we believe you?
Quoting Samuel Owen who quoted, “Pentecost: [Lev. 23:15-21] From the feast of Firstfruits, the Jews were to count seven Sabbaths, [49 days]. The Sunday following the seventh Sabbath, was the Feast of Pentecost, [which means “fiftieth”].” The underlying argument is the same as that for First Sheaf Wave Offering, just repeated, and therefore nothing the stronger except weaker for wear and tear.
Quoting Samuel Owen who
quoted, “This feast
commemorated the giving of the Law to Moses on
This says nothing for Sunday and everything for the Sabbath as that day of God’s fulfilling his great promise on. Consult LD, Appendix to Part 3 / 1, page 2 – Pentecost – “Fiftieth Day” – ‘Lightfoot’ – Forty and ten days to Pentecost, p 321f, and many other places. How Pentecost is actually given by date of month and day, to have been on the Sabbath! See even Book 4 of LD, Jonathan Edwards, Sermons on 1Cor16:2, there considered.
Quoting Samuel Owen who quoted, “Pentecost: [Lev.
23:15-21] From the feast of Firstfruits, the Jews were to count seven Sabbaths,
[49 days]. The Sunday following the seventh Sabbath, was the Feast of
Pentecost, [which means “fiftieth”]. This feast commemorated the giving of the
Law to Moses on
“The Sunday following the seventh Sabbath, was the Feast of Pentecost, [which means “fiftieth”].” You see, this is what I call arrogance; it shows above anything else, fearless disrespect for the Scriptures. Such disrespect for the Scriptures, it follows naturally, springs from shallow knowledge and understanding, which is evident just by looking at, “Pentecost: [Lev. 23:15-21] From the feast of Firstfruits, the Jews were to count seven Sabbaths”. What’s wrong with “Pentecost: [Lev. 23:15-21] From the feast of Firstfruits, the Jews were to count seven Sabbaths”, you ask? When a person write articles like this, he should know what he’s talking, and to so casually use the denomination ‘feast of Firstfruits’, is inexcusable. The “Lev. 23:15-21 ... feast of Firstfruits”, or the “Lev. 23:15-21 ... Firstfruits” isn’t just any ‘firstfruits’. It is the First Sheaf Wave Offering Before the LORD, and nothing generally above or short of it.
Show me where it is written “From the feast of Firstfruits, the Jews were to count seven Sabbaths”, and I retract what I have ever written. The author of this article’s indifference guarantees there are misconceptions a coming with a speed, or rather, have come upon the reader already. ‘The Jews’ were not supposed “to count seven Sabbaths ... from the feast of Firstfruits”; they were to count, I quote, “from the day after” ‘the feast of Firstfruits’, or, more correctly, I quote, “from the day after the sabbath” which was the ‘sabbath’ and ‘Feast’-day proper of the Passover, not the Sabbath of the week! How many times more must I tell you this? The Passover’s ‘sabbath’ could fall on any day of the week. It is clear from the Bible, and it is clear from Old Testament Jewish tradition. There is no shred of evidence to the contrary. How many times have I challenged people like you to present just one case in favour of your pet theory? And I don’t use the words ‘no shred of evidence’ with the same apathetic nonchalance some of the great thinkers on this forum do.
commemorated the giving of the Law to Moses on
“And they took their journey from
Elim … and came unto the wilderness of Sin … on the fifteenth day of the second month … And the whole
congregation murmured …16:1-3
Then said the Lord … I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people
shall go out and gather a certain (“daily”) rate (“of”) every day 4… On the sixth day they shall prepare … twice as much as they gather daily … Toward evening (today, the first day of
the six days) ye shall know that the LORD hath brought you out from the
Why is the redemption from
Day Sabbath. The date of the 15th of the Second Month is
given. The following days are “every day” numbered till “the Seventh” which is
the Sabbath falling on the 21st. Counting back, the 16th of the First Month
(Abib or Nisan) fell on the Seventh Day
Sabbath. On “this day” (see the scheme above)
FIRST DAY Sunday
SECOND DAY Monday
THIRD DAY Tuesday
FOURTH DAY Wednesday
FIFTH DAY Thursday
SIXTH DAY Friday
Now extend this calendar to Shavuot 5 with 30 days months, and Shavuot 5 falls on the (weekly) Sabbath.
About Tradition it may be said, refer ---
Appendix to Part 3 / 1, page 2 – Pentecost – “Fiftieth Day” – Lightfoot
FORTY AND TEN DAYS TO PENTECOST
‘The Arachim Torah Journal’, which again quotes from the Passover Haggadah, as follows:
“If God had brought us to
The question is: WHY could the Jews be so satisfied even though had they NOT received the LAW?
It seems the Jews live more by faith than the Christians! But not so: “... if we had not received the gift of the Torah from the Almighty ... (w)e would have settled for the massive national assembly ... even without the crowning Revelation.”
I shall try to show that according to the selfsame Torah, it is because that on Mount Sinai and ON THE DAY OF PENTECOST (Shavuot), God showed HIMSELF to them, even BEFORE He only TWO DAYS AFTER, gave them the Covenant of Ten Commandments. According to God’s one and eternal Covenant of Grace, MERCY ALWAYS COMES BEFORE THE LAW, AND GRACE IS ENOUGH!
This finding is perfectly reflected in the New Testament in the Sermon to the Hebrew Christians the twelfth chapter from the eighteenth verse to the last of that chapter, and especially the last two verses of it. And it mainly shows that what descended upon the mountain, and from it upon the People, was God through his Holy Spirit.
Jesus ascended into the heavens on the fortieth day after his resurrection from the dead, which was the Passover Feast Day of First Sheaf Wave Offering. Ten days remained to Pentecost. Then, “When Pentecost was FULLY COME”, the Holy Spirit was “poured out” upon the WAITING BELIEVERS.
Now it says in Exodus 19:1, “In the third
month, when the children of
In the 11th and 15th verses it says: “Be ready against the third day” or, “be ready FOR the third day”. “For (on) the third day the LORD will come down upon mount Sinai in the sight of all the People.” (11b)
God gave the People the FULFILMENT OF THIS PROMISE exactly so, according to verses 18 and 19. This is what the Preacher to the Hebrew Christian tells us of in Hebrews 12 above referred to.
How did we get to this “THIRD” day from the first day of the third month? It is clear and easy:
ON THE FIRST DAY “in the third month”,
“And Moses went up ... “, verse 3, “and Moses came (down) ...”, verse 7, “and all the People answered ...”. That makes up DAY TWO of the month Sivan.
THE THIRD DAY of Sivan: “And the Lord said unto Moses ...” - for which reason Moses had to have ascended the mountain a second time. “... Moses (now) returned / told to the LORD what the People had said (the previous day)”, 8b, 9b. “Go to the People”, 10b”... and Moses went down (the second time) ...” (verse 14). “Then the LORD said unto Moses, Go to the People, and sanctify them TODAY (3 Sivan),
AND, TOMORROW (4 Sivan):
for the THIRD day (5 Sivan) the LORD will come down IN THE SIGHT OF ALL THE PEOPLE ... IN A THICK CLOUD (verse 9) ... And it came to pass on the third day in the morning ...” (16).
The remainder of this day is recorded up to verse 20A: “And the LORD came down upon mount Sinai on the top of the mount” ... Not a word about the Law being given! Compare Hebrews 12 the last two verses!
THIS, FIVE Sivan, is in fact the FIFTIETH DAY counted from 16 Nisan, and is the day of the outpouring of God’s Holy Spirit, that is, the pouring out of Himself in Power of his Mercy!
From verse 20B, the NEXT DAY’S events are recorded, counted to the same measure of the previous days’ counting: To the measure of Moses’ going up to, and coming down from, the mountain:
Ex.19:20B: 6 Sivan: “And the LORD called Moses up to the top of the mount; and Moses went up ...
Verse 24A: “And the LORD said unto him (Moses), Away, get thee down ...”.
This, 6 Sivan, is the fifty FIRST day after 16 Nisan.
Verse 24B and 25: Then on SEVEN SIVAN, and the fifty SECOND day after First Sheaf Wave offering, TWO DAYS AFTER PENTECOST, CAME THE LAW (by the witness of two, according to the Law – “Aaron with thee”)!
This, 7 Sivan, is NOT Shavuot - the Fiftieth Day or “Pentecost”! The “counting” of the “Shavu’os” has stopped two days ago already. (Says Rabbi Shlomo Riskin, “... (C)ounting is a significant aspect of Shavuot, notes the illustrious Rav Samson Raphael Hirsch ...”.) The giving of the Law is no part of the giving of Grace.
Despite, Rabbi Shlomo Riskin observes: 7 Sivan is the day “... the Midrash insists that the giving of the Torah on mount Sinai took place on the Sabbath!”
All the confusion because the Day of Pentecost and Day of God’s Gift of HIMSELF, is identified with the day of the Law’s giving!
Derivation of 5 Sivan on the Sabbath:
Accept that the Midrash as far as the date of 7 Sivan is concerned – for the giving of the Law and not of the Holy Spirit (God’s descent in “thick cloud”) – is correct, then 5 Sivan was the day of the Holy Spirit’s descent or outpouring.
Accept that the Midrash is correct as far as the notable day of event is concerned – that it was the Sabbath –, then the Sabbath was the day of the Holy Spirit’s descent or outpouring.
Yerachmiel Tilles of Ascent Seminars, “Countdown
to Shavuot”: “The first Shavuot took place on Shabbat, fifty days after the
Nevertheless it would be more reasonable to expect the particular day of the week would have been ‘remembered’ correctly rather than the date of its occurrence – seeing it was the Sabbath and the event that gave the Sabbath so much meaning. Also the proneness of human nature to confuse the fruit for the tree – to confuse the Commandment for the Gift (of the Holy Spirit) – makes it more likely the Midrash mistakes the Event rather than the Day. The Midrash delivers the Sabbath correctly but it mistakes the giving of the Law for the giving of the Holy Spirit on the Sabbath.
I quote Samuel Owen who quoted from “a lot of
research on this, including (his) own” --- “This feast commemorated the giving of the Law to Moses on
Dear Samuel Owen, as you
can see from my critique above, the Jewish tradition is mistaken in that it
places “the giving of the Law to Moses on
I quote Samuel Owen who quoted, “Feast of
Trumpets: [Lev. 23:23-25] God commanded
Read my studies, ‘Die Sewende Dag is die Sabbat’, and
Prof. Bacchiocchi draws attention to the significance of the
sounding of the trumpet for the Sabbath Day by referring to the trumpet
of the Year of Jubilee. “A Messianic feature of the Sabbath years can be seen in the trumpet blast
by means of a ram’s horn (yobel –
from which derives the term “jubilee”).”
Bacchiocchi refers to Julian Morgenstern who “maintains that “in all likelihood the ‘great trumpet’ (Is.27:13),
a blast from which would inaugurate a new and happier era for conquered and
reading chapter 25 of Leviticus it becomes clear that the trumpet is named
after the Year of Jubilee, and not the
Year after the trumpet. The Year
as such is called the “Jubilee”, verses 10 et al, and not the trumpet itself.
The verse Bacchiocchi refers to, 25,
twice mentions “the trumpet of
Jubilee” as the shophar. According to Joshua 6:4 the shophar was a
trumpet of “ram’s horn”, used at the
trumpet, “blown” as yobel (“judgement”),
is mentioned on only two occasions in
the Bible, at the giving of the Law at Sinai, Ex.19:13 and at the invasion of Jericho, Joshua 6. The eventual invasion of
It is the blowing that makes the trumpet and not the trumpet that makes the blowing. The shophar is alternatively used with the same meaning and for the same kind of purpose as the silver trumpets, chatsotserah. Silver trumpets (Nmb.10:2) were blown for days dedicated to worship: “And when they shall blow with trumpets all the assembly shall assemble themselves to thee at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. … In the day of your gladness, and in your solemn days, and in the beginnings of your months, ye shall blow with your trumpets; over your burnt offerings and over the sacrifices of your peace offerings ye shall blow with your trumpets; that they may be to you for a memorial before your God: I am the Lord your God”. Nmb.10:3, 10 Trumpets were sounded for assembling, for alarm and for war. Nmb.10:3, 7; 5-6; 9 David played before God when he moved the Ark while silver trumpets were blown.1Chr.13-16 They were blown “when the builders laid the foundation of the temple of the Lord”; Esra 3:10 when the temple service was re-organised; Neh.12:35 Psalm 98 mentions the blowing of the silver trumpets and is clearly a “foreseeing” of the Christ-event as Peter proclaimed on the day of Pentecost. “Blow ye the trumpet in Ramah, cry aloud”, Hosea 5:8, fulfilled in Mt.2:18, the slaying of infants, “In Rama was there a voice heard, and weeping and great mourning.” Zephaniah describes “The great day of the Lord”, when Christ will return, as when the trumpet shall be heard. 1:16
Very significant in this regard is the fact that the silver trumpets were used when the idolatrous reign of Athaliah was ended by coup – on the Sabbath Day! 2Kings11-12
The Fiftieth Year or Year of Jubilee is correctly associated with the Great Day of Atonement-”Sabbath” and with the sounding of the trumpet.
Josephus mentions the trumpet that signified the start and the end of the Sabbath. Only the Sabbath of all single days, is ever associated with the sounding of the trumpet. The co-incidence of the yobel’s sounding for the beginning of the “fiftieth year”, and the “sound from heaven as of a violent wind” on the “fiftieth day” – the Day of the First Bread Wave Offering – is very meaningful. As at Sinai fifty days after entrance into Promised land, the trumpet sounded at Pentecost fifty days after Passover-Sabbath of Friday 15 Nisan 30 AD – on the weekly Sabbath!
Greek word used for the sounding of
the trumpet at “the mount (Sinai) that burnt with fire”, at
“blackness, darkness and tempest”, “at
the voice of words, which voice they
that heard intreated that the word should not
be spoken to them any more for they could
not endure …” (Hb.12:19-20), is the same word ehchos, used for the “sound
from heaven” that was heard at Pentecost
(Acts 2:2). Ehchos is used only four times in the New Testament. Hb.12:19-20 refers to the
in Joel it is commanded: “Blow
the trumpet in
The “blowing” of the “sound” of the
Joel-prophecy is fulfilled on Pentecost, Acts 2. Also
the sound heard (according to prophecy and promise) had been that of the Sabbath-trumpet, the Sabbath would
clearly fit the occasion of Pentecost,
Acts 2. Now in Isaiah 58 it is said, “Cry loud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and show my people their transgression, and
the house of Jacob their sins” (judgement), and in verse 13 one of
their sins is lifted out – desecration of the Sabbath! In chapter 66 the Sabbath is associated with the Feast of New Moon on which the trumpet was blown. The Sabbath-trumpet heard on Pentecost, like the trumpet sounded
at the dethronement of Athaliah and at the fall of
I quote Samuel Owen who quoted, “The Day of
Atonement: [Lev. 23:26-32] The Feast of Trumpets is followed by ten days called
by modern Jews, “the days of awe.” This is a time of national repentance for
On this I would advise you to follow the word, ‘Pisidia’ through Book 3, all three parts. Really you will not regret, there is so much about the Acts 13 event it’s unbelievable. For our concern here, see the association and fulfilment of the Day of Atonement on this singular event with ... yes, as would be expected of course ... with the Sabbath Day! And from there draw your own conclusions as to the significance these things have for the Sabbath Day. Is it Biblical? Is the only question. You decide.
Quoting Samuel Owen who quoted, “The Feast of
Tabernacles: [Lev. 23:33-43] Five days after the Day of Atonement is the Feast
of Tabernacles. From the 15th to the 22nd of the seventh month was a time of
the greatest rejoicing. It was the festival of all festivals.
Is not the Feast of Tabernacles the most sad and solemn of feasts? Does not its dwelling in tabernacles of leaves remind the Church of its transitoriness, that they are but sojourners in a strange country on trek to the land of promise? Oh the Church that forget they are not that City which hath foundations whose builder and maker is God, yet nor fully? With whom was God grieved? Was it not with them that sinned and to whom God sware that they should not enter into His Rest— to them that believed not, but showed off their unbelief?
Does not the Feast of Tabernacles stay the heart on the Suffering Servant of the LORD en route from the manger to the cross esteeming the reproach of Messiah greater riches than having been found in the form of God? Don’t we –can’t we– see Jesus in the Feast of Tabernacles, the Risen Crucified? How shall I sing the LORD’s song in a strange land if I forget Thee, o Jesus? “Yea, they shall sing in the ways of the LORD: for great is the glory of the LORD. Though the LORD be high, yet hath He respect unto the lowly; but the proud He knoweth afar off. Though I walk in the midst of trouble, Thou wilt revive me: (Read, Christ!) Thou shalt stretch forth thine hand against the wrath of mine enemies, and thy right hand shall save me. The LORD will perfect that which concerneth me: Thy Mercy O LORD, Thou for ever perfect; forsake not the Works of thine own hands.” (Ps137, 138)
What do, the Jews know of the Feast of Tabernacles? Poor souls; they know nothing! But we, the Christian Community? ... but I, who know neither to sing or dance to heart’s aches or joys? Do you see how they throw on the pavement the palm leaves they waved so high? Do you see the First Sheaf Waved Before the LORD? Here is the Message of Tabernacles, “O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God: through Jesus Christ our Lord!”
May we now have a look at
the real meaning of the Jewish ‘Channukah’? I quote Samuel Owen who quoted, “There is another
day that is celebrated by
22 And it was at
23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon’s porch. (KJV)
That Channukah is always 75 days after The Day of Atonement may be related to an interesting prophecy in Daniel.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
1,335 days is exactly 75 days more than the 1260 days that Antichrist will reign. So, if the Antichrist is destroyed on the Day of Atonement, then the extra 75 days lands us directly on the first day of Channukah. It seems likely this has to do with the rededication of the
Let me first say I don’t
see sense in the time-setting. What’s the use of it? And what’s “the
“Channukah ... is
a celebration of the cleansing of the
The ‘old’ cleansing of the
temple received the new appellation of ‘Channukah’
and the individual status as a feast “after the Jews defeated Antiochus
Epiphanius” and they “set about to
Thought that was remarkable?
You shall see even greater things!
Now read John 10:22, but
don’t go further like you did, reading verse 23 together with 22; go back, and read the whole section concluded with verse 22! Don’t read as were this verse the
introduction to the verses that follow – it is not. Ignore the paragraph
indication in front of this verse; it should come after it. Because this verse
22 is the ending, the peroration, in
fact, the key, to the foregoing
passage that extends from chapter 9 through to 10:22. Nowhere in between the
beginning of chapter 9 and 10:22 is any sign that the episode that took place
and was accordingly recorded, was interrupted with another day or any other
period of time. This, John 9:1 to
10:22, was the Feast of the Cleansing and Dedication of the
Most remarkable is Jesus’ calling Himself the Door into the sheepfold — ‘sheepfold’ for ‘sanctuary’, place of safety and rest — on this occasion! Mark how Jesus elaborates on the goings in and goings out into and out of the sheepfold and the evidences of Sabbath’s involvement e.g. in Ez46:12, 17, 45:30c; then compare Ezekiel 43 to 46, e.g., verses like 43:4, 44:5, 46:1. But just look at the idea of holy convocation, ‘Church’, in verses like 46:3 and 44:24 and then read Lamentations 2:16 and 1:10, keeping in mind those godless, temple-polluting kings. “Mark!” and see, the evidence of Nisan 16 First Sheaf Wave Offering Before the LORD in 45:22, “And upon that day”, implying, actually intending, ‘upon’ in sequence, that is, ‘after’ the First Month its fourteenth day, its fifteenth day, day of Unleavened Bread Feast, and “upon / after that day” its fifteenth day, “seven days” of unleavened bread; then ‘after / upon’ – intended - the sixteenth day of the First Month— “The day after the sabbath from the day that ye brought the sheaf”, Lv23:15. “Now when the prince shall prepare a voluntary burnt offering or peace offerings voluntarily (“He offered up Himself”, Hb7:27c.) unto the Lord, shall then open (to) him the gate ... then He shall go forth”, Ez46:12, truly signifying the First Sheaf Waved Before the LORD in resurrection from the dead!
Which all is the “Cleansing of the Sanctuary”, “finished” on Nisan 16, according to 2Chr29, no doubt, in my mind, in Jesus Christ, through Jesus Christ, once for all, “In Sabbath’s fullness in the being light of Sabbath’s inclining towards the First Day of the week”— Mt28:1.
You show me anything vaguely the like with regard to the First Day of the week and you might blame me for not listening!
""In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week"
This is what it says in all of my KJV versions. As it began to dawn towards; would indicate it was the eve of the first DAY, (night of the first day.) "
Correct: "As it began to dawn towards; would indicate it was the eve of the first DAY"!;
WRONG: "(night of the first day.)"!
Collins: "eve" / "even" - "The evening or day before ..."; "evening" -"the latter part of the day ...".
'Evening' developed a modern meaning to indicate the first part of night. That is STILL, miles apart from the next 'morning'!
But read what you have said YOURSELF!: "In the end OF the sabbath, as it began to dawn TO-wards the first day of the week".
'Dawn': When was the 'dawn' of the twenty first century? It was the last part of the twentieth century? Of course it was! 'Dawn' as the part of night BEFORE sunrise, that is 'dawn' of the light-day. That does not correlate with the indifferent division of the 'Bible-day'. The 'Bible-day' begins with sunset, and therefore the dawn of the 24-hour-night-and-daylight-day of Bible-reckoning, is the last part of the day before it, which is the afternoon - the after 12 pm to sunset part - of the previous day.
You will find other - and older - translations that render, "On the Sabbath!, and "before / towards the First Day". Like the KJV they LITERALLY render the Greek, which is, "opse de sabbahtohn tehi epifohskousehi eis mian (hehmeran) sabbaton". Literally: "In the Sabbath's fulness in its being midst of being light having inclined towards the first day". Yes those 'extra' two words, 'having inclined', are literally implied in the precise Greek of the preposition 'epi', which also means, 'in', like 'in the epicentre' of an earthquake. I have often on this board dealt on the subject. No one could refute me so far.
But, I would
like to go on with some comments on that article you gave us.
I quote Samuel Owen who quoted from “a lot of research on this, including (his) own” --- “This feast commemorated the giving of the Law to Moses on
Dear Samuel Owen, as you can see from my critique above, the Jewish tradition is mistaken in that it places “the giving of the Law to Moses on
I quote Samuel Owen, “The Bible states plainly! the first day of the week was the resurrection, to say otherwise discredits Gods word, and that is no small thing.”
God does not
lie; we shall not lie. The Scriptures
are the Written Word of God. Basic Protestant Christianity.
What you say is not new to me. I had to contend with such arguments with myself, from the beginning of my taking things seriously -- in order to make my Christian life and confession and faith to agree; not to live a hypocrite and coward. With myself I have had this warfare. It is easy to say the very true things you have said where you spoke the truth. But that verily is what makes it impossible to live in peace and harmony with the lie and the love of the world.
What rattled me most after the things of my own heart, was the fearless arrogance of Christians who claim to believe these same, and precious soul-saving truths. In straight talk: They say they believe in God and they believe his Word, but the moment they are confronted with something that points their way as in the wrong, don't think they will admit, repent and make good and do right. No, they will rather violate the Scriptures. There is no easier recipe. I have said it before, I rather become a Roman Catholic and renounce the Scriptures in all than mutilate it and boast my Christianity. It is the most abhorrent idea to me.
Now I tell you, Samuel Owen and whosoever else, like Dolla, If the oldest Translation translated "In the Sabbath" and "towards the First Day", and the 'New' oldest 'translation' - NKJV, comes and changes that to "After the Sabbath" and "on the First Day", then is it you get arrogance that defies God the Author of the Written Word of God.
Yes, the 'Version' you are reading, may tell you, ‘The Bible states plainly! the first day of the week was the resurrection’. Well I say to you, to say, discredits Gods word, and that is no small thing.
And so I can go on and show you one by one how the Bible has been mutilated with one purpose IN MIND of the 'translators' and 'editors': The predetermined objective to destroy the TRUTH of God's Word and, for the sake of the false god of Sunday-worship. I can go on and show you one by one how these texts are changed and shaped to suit this only objective. That is no small thing.
Take Lightfoot above - but he did not change the Scriptures! at least.
The only 'critique' such Christianity is able to lodge, is perfectly being illustrated by some observers on this discussion. I say to those users of nonsensical adjectives and insulting nouns, you should be ashamed of yourself. A Christianity that stands or falls with the belief of a First Day Resurrection is a false Christianity. I say again, then I rather join the ranks of Roman Catholicism. But God help me, I would rather die.
"In the Sabbath" and "towards the First Day" -- Which translation is this from? It’s certainly not from the KJV. "In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week"; This is what it says in all of my KJV versions.
As it began to dawn towards; would indicate it was the eve of the
first DAY, (night of the first day.) Jesus’ final night, completing the
three nights. Had his resurrection delayed until the light of the first day,
this would have been counted as four days, not three.
I have hammered this around enough, I just wanted to clear up what the KJV translation said.
You have, and you did not, “clear up what the KJV translation said”.
This is how you did clear up what it says,
“As it began to dawn towards; would indicate it was the eve of the first DAY, (night of the first day)...”
And this is how you have again confused everything: “Jesus’ final night, completing the three nights ... Had his resurrection delayed until the light of the first day, this would have been counted as four days, not three.”
Step by step:
“As it began to dawn towards would indicate it was the eve of the first DAY, (night of the first day)...” Correct! A bit more by definition: ‘As it began to dawn towards would indicate it was the eve of the First-Day in fact the eve of the night of the First Day.’ (In other words, the last part of the day before the First Day which part of the Seventh Day is “the eve of the First-Day”), which First Day of the week would begin after sunset and with the immediately following ‘evening-first-part-of-the-First-Day’.
‘Jesus’ final night, completing the three nights’, had had been what we call, Friday night, the first half of the Sabbath Day. One cannot divide one day of the Bible’s reckoning and count its two parts for two separate days. Therefore, “as it began to dawn towards the First Day”— KJV— it indicated it was the ‘eve’ or ‘dawn’ of both the First Day and, its night-beginning, ‘evening’. ... Delayed his resurrection until the First Day or just until its night-beginning with sunset, this would have been counted as four days, not three, irrespective.
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