Jesus’ Last Passover
GE:
The Lord’s Supper....
Open invitation:
Why would you say it was the passover-meal?
I say it was not the passover-meal.
DC:
“The major historical and
interpretive question is whether this meal was a Passover meal. Major scholars
have weighed in on both sides of the debate.
The Gospels themselves appear divided on the question. Mark
14:12 (“prepare, so that you may eat the Passover”), followed by Matthew
(26:17) and Luke (22:8), apparently understands the Last Supper (14:17–25) as a
Passover meal, while John 18:28 (cf. John 19:14, 31, 42) seems to imply that
the Last Supper took place the day before Passover and that Jesus in fact died
on Passover, 15 Nisan.” Craig A. Evans, vol. 34B, Word Biblical Commentary : Mark 8:27-16:20, (2002), 370.
ES:
1 After two days it was the Passover and
the Feast of Unleavened Bread.
14 Wherever he goes in, say to the
master of the house, ‘The Teacher says, “Where is the guest room in which I
may eat the Passover with My disciples?”’ 15 Then he will show you a
large upper room, furnished and
prepared; there make ready for us.”
16 So His disciples went out, and came
into the city, and found it just as He had said to them; and they prepared
the Passover.
17 In the evening He came with the
twelve. 18 Now as they sat and ate, Jesus said, “Assuredly, I say
to you, one of you who eats with Me will betray Me.” (Mk. 14:1, 14-18 - NKJV)
'Nuff said
WD:
It matters not what you say, GE. As ES
pointed out, Scripture says it was the Passover Meal. Case closed.
GE:
“The Scriptures
say ....” Because ES has spoken, it is Scripture .... For you, WD, not
for me!
The elements of the Last Supper are specifically described
and they are not the elements of the Passover or Seder; not even of the Bedikat
Chamets meal. The Last Supper which was
the institution of the Lord’s Supper was unique and new. And that is my
conclusive evidence for believing the Last Supper was not the Passover Meal
regardless the proof all the many other proofs it was not. It is what it was,
and not what it was not, that weighs heaviest.
You people want a Passover meal eaten before the Passover
sacrifice was slaughtered;
You want the Passover Meal of the Passover-sabbath, Nisan
15, on Passover-Preparation, Nisan 14;
You want “two days before Passover Feast-(sabbath)”,
one day before Passover Feast-sabbath;
You want Jesus say He ate
while He said, Prepare so that I may eat.
You want a Passover Meal of a blood sacrifice that is the
Seder, but that consisted of bread
and nothing more.
You want a Passover Meal with wine – which no Passover
Seder for the life of you would have had on the table or 'prepared'.
You want a Passover Meal of 'arton'— ordinary bread, and
not of bread without yeast, 'adzymos-bread' (or ‘matsach’).
You want a Passover Meal which the Jews had not partaken
of, because they the next morning, would not enter into Pilate's house, “that
they (still) might eat the Passover” the coming evening.
You want a Passover Meal the Jews obviously must have eaten
the following night after the Last Supper’s, after sunset and before they went
into Pilate's house without scruples about the Passover Meal.
You want a Passover Meal Jesus had eaten while it is not
written once that He ate it, but that He ate the Passover in that He was 'our Passover Lamb' - Himself –
slain before He could be 'partaken of' by faith.
That is your 'Scripture', WD; you may have it for yourself;
just don't spoon-feed innocent enquirers with what is just _your_ 'Scripture'
and not that of the Written Word.
TS:
Also the description of the meal
resembles that of a Sader. “he who dips his bread with me” dips it in the
bitter herbs. Sader. Passover - meal. I've celebrated Seder and there is wine.
And Jesus had this seder on Shabbat. Which makes sense to me and no the
scriptures don't say what Jesus and Judas dipped into but I do know that the
Seder bread is dipped into bitter herbs in water. Since the writer assumes that
we know what he's talking about I can assume it was a normal Jewish custom at
the time.
GE:
“Jesus had this
seder on Shabbat”? You mean on passover’s
‘sabbath’; on Nisan 15? On Nisan 14, “the passover must be killed”!
Having celebrated Seder you naturally also would have
celebrated Bedikat Chamets, and should know the differences between the two feast-meals.
You should know that Seder has grape juice; no wine. Bedikat Chamets has wine;
no grape juice. Seder has meat – the passover's sacrifice's meat; Bedikat
Chamets does not have meat of sacrifice.
In any case, grape juice or any drink is no constituent of
the original, Scriptural, OT 'Passover'. 'The Jews' much later only, introduced
drinking of whatever fluid into the Passover Meal.
Originally too, the Passover-Meal was simply called “The
Passover” Gr., 'to pascha' - a Hebraism. 'Seder' cannot even be said is properly the
'Passover'!
The Reformed Churches use real wine for the Lord's Supper.
Unfortunately the Reformed Churches have made two 'ceremonies' of the Lord's
Supper of the Gospels. They made of the one ‘Holy Communion’ a ‘Preparation Service’
on the evening of the night before, and the Celebration of the Lord's Supper
itself next day.
The Jews are a wonderful people; but even they, cannot be
trusted in matters of Christian religion.
ES:
Does that include when they recorded
Scripture?
Most of the writers of Scripture surely
were Jewish, including every writer of the NT, likely apart from Luke, it would
seem.
Sorry, GE. You simply are searching for
a distinction that is not there, and that Scripture does not support, as the
Scriptures I quoted previously would seem to suggest.
TS:
We actually had manischewitz wine which
was drunk at different intervals during the seder following of the passover
Haggadah. No grape juice. Wine. Sweet
new wine. They didn't have any skins so I couldn't tell you if it was new wine
in old skins.
Bedikat Chametz is the night before
looking for leaven or yeast in the house by candle light. I don't think this is
what Jesus was doing.
GE:
So they ate unleavened bread, but drank fermented wine?
I didn't say or suggest Jesus was looking for yeast. I said
and again say, Jesus did not 'do' any of the Bedikat Chamets, or Seder, or,
Passover-Meal. Have you not seen I said Jesus did a New Thing? A thing He
prepared his disciples through for this once for all coming Passover? A thing
that He himself would be prepared by for this once for all coming Passover?
This once for all coming Passover that He would 'eat' and would 'drink' Himself
being its Sacrifice, Himself being its Cup? “This”, says Jesus, “is
MY blood”; “This” again, “is MY body” : Not that of a
passover lamb not slaughtered yet and not eaten yet, but to be slaughtered still and to
be eaten still.
Quoting TS,
“The Seder bread
is dipped into bitter herbs in water. Since the writer assumes that we know
what he's talking about I can assume it was a normal Jewish custom at the time.”
The expression, “he who dips his hand into the bowl with
me” should not be assumed “a normal Jewish
custom at the time”
for the Seder; but at the time was a normal Jewish idiom of the vernacular
for familiarity: ''He who knows me well”, who even may dwell with me;
who intimately, knows me.
Bring all the factors into play; not only one
doubtful one, Passover=Seder!
Over more, Seder is not Lord's Supper! Lord's Supper is so called (by Paul and all
Christians after him) for being The Lord's Supper by Title and right of His
Lordship earned and obtained and received by Triumph of Victory – both in Suffering and Resurrection!
It's purely Christian.
It's NEW, and covenanted, New!
The Lord's Supper was nor is the Passover!
AS:
GE - Can I ask about why you have such
an obsession with Jesus' last hours on earth? What about the rest of His life
and after His death and resurrection? His life wasn't just about those last
hours.
GE:
Ah, AS, this is the most wonderful question ever put to me,
and in all Christian sincerity, thank you for it!
For His whole life in truth, the whole rest of His Life,
since eternity before and for eternity after, and since He was born a human
baby and until He died God in the body of mortal flesh, was all about those
last hours and last three days and three nights according to the Scriptures!
His eternal existence is unthinkable without these moments and events. Jesus'
own words at the table confirm! His 'Intercessory prayer' of John 17, shows!
Because here and now the eternal Covenant of Grace really
'kicked in', to be established once for ever in the Resurrection of the
Crucified Christ of God. Here, like, or, nowhere else, is God in His Glory
revealed: as, He, is! If not for these hours God would be as if even He, were
transitory and of but of a moment's existence and power. Which exactly these
hours were: The Eternal Life of God in one event of God who so loved the world
that He gave His Only Begotten Son, both into death and in resurrection from
the dead.
I fail to express the reality or truth of it in words. But
I am sure you get the drift of what I'm trying to say.
DA:
For GE what the bible actually says is
never good enough, it's got to say what he wants it to say.
GE:
No, it's you.
You show me once, where as you say, it says, Jesus “ate”. I show where every time, it says,
I mean the Scriptures says, “may / might / can ... eat”. Any way you could possibly say it, “They prepared for passover”. “They
prepared for passover”, is Scripture; that's what I, GE, say because it is
Scripture, and not vice versa, that because I say it, it is Scripture --- like
in fact, you, do!
But it's because GE once as always took the given data to
full consequences as far as possible, and because GE does not take for granted
popular opinion, that you say what you've said, falsely and insultingly; which
I shall boast in for Christ's sake.
AS:
Yes, what Jesus did in His last days
were of utmost importance but being so focused on the small issues, I feel
you're missing the bigger picture.
GE:
Small
issues?
EE:
Because it makes a difference if Jesus
was raised up on the Sabboth (last day of the week) or on Sonday (first day of
the week).
Personally I worship God every day of my
life.
GE:
Ja, 'personally' we all do -- or are supposed
to. But the Sabbath is not about 'me'; it never has been; it's about God
through Jesus Christ being worshipped by his People. This is the Christian
People of God: There: Where they worship their Lord together.
This is the Christian People of God: There: When they worship their Lord
together.
Christian worship is all about this 'difference'. Without
this difference, there will be no witness, no proclamation, no praises, no
prayers, no singing, no healing: basically because two things will be and must
be wanting : No “Sabbaths'“, “eating and drinking” of
Christ “in Spirit and Truth”,
“not holding the Head from Whom all the Body
(of Christ's Own) by joints and bands having (spiritual) nourishment
ministered”, no “increase (growth) with the increase of God” but a
getting “puffed up” to bursting point with self-esteem and vanity of an
own religion. (The like is described further in verses 20-23.)
ES:
How is the Sabbath involved? ‘Nuf said.
GE:
We are still on track. We are still dealing with the
Passover Jesus that Nisan 14 ate and drank Himself being the Lamb
slaughtered and eaten and His Own blood being the Life of Him drunk.
It only extended into the Life of the Body of Christ's Own,
and no longer is being celebrated a sacrifice or therefore the day of a death
merely, but that Passover is now being celebrated the day of his life taken up,
lifted up and exalted, “On the Sabbath Day”.
He having “triumphed in it”-- having been raised from the dead --, his
day of death and resurrection and Triumph is being observed and celebrated in
one with “Sabbaths’ feasting”!
Still, after the two disciples who were sent before, found
the room, and everything 'prepared', they made no further preparations, but, “prepared
for Passover”. Which means, they enjoyed the passover preparation-meal. But
this time, the first time, the Providence of God, “prepared”, and “prepared”,
not for the old passover, but for the New, that He, “might be eaten”. And so the disciples and Jesus “Prepared
the Passover” -- for “our Passover”, the Passover of the Lamb of God.
But what do I have this diatribe with myself for? This is
not my dogma; this is well known Protestant teaching! What do you oppose me so
for? Or why do you so disregard me, rather? This is essential, Protestant
doctrine! It contains the death of trans-substantiation. It glorifies the
Christ. It simplifies the Message. Only good can be said of it. But no, this is
me making me the Scriptures! I ask you, why? Is this blasphemy? Is this
insulting? Is this obvious, literal, confused, error?
I know what I believe! I believe (here) the Lord's Supper;
not the Jews' Passover Meal. It's good enough for me.
We are still on track. We are still dealing with the
Passover Jesus that Nisan 14 ate and drank Himself being the Lamb
slaughtered and eaten and His Own blood being the Life of Him drunk.
And now and here it struck me first time, “Great, marvellous,
wonderful, beautiful, is the Mystery of Godliness”!
About half a century ago already, I noticed the difference
between Exodus and the rest of the Law and the OT. I made thorough research of
it, the fact that Exodus places both
the sacrifice and the eating, on
Nisan 14, for which reason, Exodus
employed for the feast days, a sunrise to sunrise reckoning.
All the subsequent references to the dating of the
sacrifice and the passover-meal,
place sacrifice, on Nisan 14 (no exceptions), and meal, on Nisan 15 (no
exceptions). For this reason the sunset to sunset day-cycle was instrumental -
no exceptions.
I always thought this was a difficulty.
I tried to find explanations, and could only think of the
old era of bondage being broken and left behind, so that the 'old' first and
day-halve of Nisan 14 fell away and back into Nisan 13 and became its last and
day-halve; and Nisan 14's 'old' and last or night-halve, (now at the beginning
of the new age of freedom), became the beginning and first or night-halve of
Nisan 14.
Thus in Exodus both sacrifice and meal fell on Nisan 14. It
was the first passover.
Now in the end-time once again and for last and ever, both
Sacrifice and Meal of Passover became one in the One Who is both Sacrifice and Meal of Yahweh's Passover. Once for
all, the Lamb of God our Passover in his own body and the sacrifice of Himself,
became both Sacrifice and Meal of Yahweh's Passover on, and, within, Nisan 14. It
would be the Last Passover.
After sunset after this Nisan 14, the Jews on Nisan 15,
would still eat their passover – which was their own in every respect, and none
of Christ's.
I saw it today through this discussion; I have found what
for me is a treasure of spiritual wealth, and I sincerely want to thank
everyone for his or her critique, without which I still would have walked with
blinkers on.
TS:
I would like to differ sir. Yours
obviously is not well known protestant teaching and I've visited many churches.
You have a right to your view. I have a right to oppose it. My view is this
Jesus was Jewish and was celebrating a Jewish holiday. However, you are right
that he also was doing a new thing and established a new covenant. But beyond
that I may disagree.
GE:
Not
well known protestant teaching? What do the Church every ‘Nagmaal’ or ‘Lord’s Supper’ do? Do we
eat the Seder?
Nevertheless, At this hour in His life, Jesus was less
'Jewish' than at any time in his earthly life. In fact, reading John 17 Jesus
is seen the Intercessor for his Elect, first, last and only. Reading the
passion-narratives, Jesus tells his disciples Now is the hour of evil men and
of the powers of darkness. He sided with no human affiliation when He
Institutionalised His Supper the Holy Communion of Christian allegiance. Here
is the point in the life's history of Jesus Christ blood relation and
nationalistic interests were zero.
Here prophecy was being brought to an end; here Jewish
Covenantal commitment raged itself out in the fury of the Jews and the
judgments of a just God. Christ Triumphed and introduced the Lord's Supper to
commemorate Triumph through Victory. No 'Jewish
holy day' would do; no holy meal of it; He had to invent and create his
own.
And I never denied Jesus here 'observed' a day of God's
institution: He observed, the Passover of Exodus, Nisan 14, in both aspects of
Sacrifice and Meal! No 'Jewish'
ceremony or even OT ceremony or ‘holy day’
existed that could fulfil the requirements of God's Prophetic, Eschatological
Provision through Christ Himself— therefore, not on the sabbath of the
passover! Jesus was the Passover
Lamb, both in being Sacrifice Himself and Feast of Eating, Himself. He created
out of nothing.
Jesus did not observe the Jewish Passover still observed by
the Jews for nothing but a judgment over themselves on Nisan 15, after,
the True Passover Lamb of God had been sacrificed and Himself by the sacrifice
of Himself had eaten the bowl prepared for Him and had drunk the cup destined
for Him by God, that Nisan 14.
ES:
As to how Jesus could partake of the
Passover meal (thus fulfilling Scripture) and yet be crucified (as Our
Passover) on the same Jewish day (again fulfilling the Scripture), I have
already made multiple comments, regarding the fulfilling of the phrase, found
in the OT of “between the evenings,” and how that was when the Passover Lamb
was to be slain, and the fact that that phrase did not even seem to have any
import attached to it, until our Lord was in fact, 'killed' on 14 Nisan (or
Abib), just as the Scripture demands. For over 1500 years, this merely seemed
to be an oddity of wording, to all except the LORD, who gave this prophetic
command.
GE:
Ag, ES, you have said nothing of the smallest worth. You
have become the Scriptures unto yourself. I cannot but answer you with disdain.
If not ES were the inventor, all lightbulbs give darkness.
ES:
I really do not know what I have ever
done or said to invite such vindictiveness from you. However, keep getting on
my case, and thus give some of the rest, such as DA a break, considering she is
a lady.
Nor do I see why, when GE renders some
phrase, it should be given more import, than any other, for that matter, but
when another renders one, it is supposedly poor theology.
And especially from one who allegedly
champions a particular English version, and that is the version cited from, by
some other??
The phrase, which I had previously
commented on of “between the evenings” is a literal rendering of the Hebrew in
some of the passages in Leviticus and other Pentateuch books, according to what
I have seen.
Is that incorrect?
If not, apart from an oddity of the
phrasing, what import was ever given to this prior to the crucifixion of the
Lord Jesus?
Incidentally, it would make zero sense,
for the Lord to have not eaten the Passover, considering that is what He
said He was going to do -
12 Now on the first day of Unleavened
Bread, when they killed the Passover lamb, His disciples said to Him, “Where
do You want us to go and prepare, that You may
eat the Passover?”
13 And He sent out two of His disciples and said to them, “Go into the city, and a man will meet you
carrying a pitcher of water; follow him. 14 Wherever he goes in, say to the
master of the house, ‘The Teacher says, “Where is the guest room in which I may eat the Passover with My disciples?”’ 15 Then he
will show you a large upper room, furnished and prepared; there make ready for us.”
16 So His disciples went out, and came into the city, and found it just as He
had said to them; and they prepared the
Passover.
17 In the evening He came with the twelve. 18 Now as they sat and ate, Jesus said, “Assuredly, I say to you, one of you who eats with Me will betray Me.” 19 And they began to be sorrowful, and to say to Him one by
one, “Is it I?” And another said, “Is it I?” 20 He answered and said to them, “It is
one of the twelve, who
dips with Me in the dish. 21 The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him,
but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good
for that man if he had never been born.” (Mk. 14:12-20 - NKJV cp. Mt. 26:17-26
& Lk. 26:7-16)
The bold words, are for the point of
emphasis and distinction, incidentally.
And as I have previously said, IMO, the
Lord was not just dipping his hand into the dish, to play with food. [BTW,
Judas could not have been dipping his hand, along with Jesus, at the same Jesus
gave him the choice morsel (“the sop”) of which to partake. Kinda' hard to be
fishing something out of the dish, while simultaneously, receiving the mouthful
of the morsel from another's hand, I would say.]
Quoting ES,
“....it would make
zero sense, for the Lord to have not eaten the Passover, considering that is
what He said He was going to do....”
GE:
It would make zero sense for the Lord to have eaten the Passover, considering He
said that, was not going to be what He
was going to do – “And He took the cup .... and gave thanks .... and gave to
them .... But I say unto you, I will not drink of this
fruit of the vine”
Quoting ES,
1
After two days it was the Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread.
14
Wherever he goes in, say to the master of the house, ‘The Teacher says, “Where
is the guest room in which I may eat the Passover with My disciples?”’
15 Then he will show you a large upper room, furnished and prepared; there make ready for us.”
16
So His disciples went out, and came into the city, and found it just as He had
said to them; and they prepared the Passover.
17
In the evening He came with the twelve. 18 Now as they sat and ate,
Jesus said, “Assuredly, I say to you, one of you who eats with Me will betray
Me.” (Mk. 14:1, 14-18 - NKJV)
GE:
Let's change your underlining (and then enquire after a few
other things),
Quoting ES,
“Where is the guest room in which I may eat
the Passover with My disciples?”
GE:
Let's change it to the more realistic,
“Where is the guest room in which I may eat the
Passover with My disciples?”
“Where is the guestroom where, I with my disciples, may
eat, (it being) the Passover. 16 So His disciples went out, and came
into the city, and found it just as He had said to them; and they prepared for Passover. 17
In the evening He came with the twelve. 18 Now as they sat and ate, Jesus said, “Assuredly, I
say to you, one of you who eats with Me will betray Me.”
Mk14:1, 14-18.
“Where .... I with my disciples may eat the Passover....”—
Where?: in the room;
When?: “the Passover”, that Passover, on it; “Where, while / while being / on Passover
we may eat”— the Passover season.
(One may plainly call it the last passover meal, not meaning it was the
Passover’s Meal of sacrifice, but because it was the meal of the last passover
Feast season that Jesus would attend.)
“Where I with My
disciples may eat this
Passover....”— it says not 'we shall
eat the Passover’, or, 'we shall eat the Passover Meal’. It says not, 'shall
eat'; it says, “may eat”—
Jesus well knowing He won't then at all
physically eat, but the disciples would, to prepare them all for that one
coming Passover of all time— Passover of the Yom Yahweh.
On the evening and
beginning of Nisan 14, “They prepared the Passover notwithstanding”-('hehtoimadzoh')— The Jews prepared for Passover with Bedikat Chamets.
What did Jesus and his disciples do after that they have
found the place 'prepared already'? “They
prepared for the Passover”. ('for', correct
Then: 17 “In the
evening (Luke says after an hour) He came with the (rest of the) twelve.”
With your emphasis:
“18 Now as
they sat and ate ....”
Make that,
“18 Now as they sat and ate....” not Jesus,
but they.
Even better, make that,
“18 Now they sitting, eating....”
Quoting ES,
“.... Jesus said, “Assuredly,
I say to you, one of you who eats
with Me will betray Me.”
GE:
Get that, more precise:
“.... Jesus said, “Assuredly, I say to you, one of you
will betray me – the one by me (met’
emou) and eating.”
Where does it say, Jesus, ate or drank? Nowhere!
Quoting ES,
“14:1”,
GE:
“After two days was the Feast Day (Sabbath) of
the Passover that of Unleavened Bread Feast ...”. Passover would be two
days away.
Mark 14:12 also exists, you know as well as I
do, which refers to the day directly after this one of verse 1, upon which the Last Supper was eaten,
Nisan 14, and one day before the Passover Feast Sabbath of
Unleavened Bread eaten.
Therefore you have two indicators to the sequence of the
days involved before the Feast
Sabbath on which day, Nisan 15, in its fore-part and evening of night, the Passover’s, Meal,
would have been eaten as the climax of the Feast of the Passover's eight days
of duration.
You agree Nisan 15 was Passover's Sabbath of Unleavened
Bread Feast – you have told us before – that it was the Friday.
Now how on earth do you get the Last Supper on the day _of_
the Feast Sabbath – on Friday –, during its beginning, the evening of 'our'
Thursday night?
ES:
[Sigh!] Yes, I did quote Mk. 14:1.
And no, I do not believe or teach that
the Passover meal took place on “the evening of 'our' Thursday night,” nor have
I said this for some 40 years. (I did ignorantly say, about that time, that the
Crucifixion was on Wednesday for a year or so, until I studied the Scripture a
bit more closely, and realized that this took place on Thursday, by our
reckoning of time.) Nor have I even remotely agreed that the Lord was crucified
on Friday, by our reckoning, for more than 40 years, either. 14 Nisan (or 14
Abib) is “Passover”, and which is also referred to in the NT as “the
Preparation” which, although referred to as a 'feast day' in Leviticus, is not
said specifically to be a Sabbath nor an holy Convocation, unlike the Feast day
of Unleavened Bread, Nisan 15, which is a Sabbath, and an holy
convocation, according to Leviticus 23.
Incidentally, the only thing I
actually “said” (at this time) was, “ 'Nuff said!” The rest was a quoting of
Scripture.
Did you not read the verses?
It also says, and I will use your
preferred font, “In the evening He came with the twelve. (18) Now as they
sat and ate, Jesus said, “Assuredly, I say unto you, one of you who eats
with me shall betray me.”
Did you notice what I have underlined,
here? In another place, it mentions Jesus speaking of one who would dip his
hand in the dish, along with the Lord Jesus.
I underlined “eat” and “ate” to show
that it was indeed the Passover meal, and that they did, in fact, eat of it.
Frankly, I simply do not think the Lord
was 'dipping his hand' into the dish, and not eating this, and merely “playing
in the food”.
GE:
Thank you for this clear explanation of your position. It
looks like mine in certain respects. Can we go through it slowly?
Quoting ES,
“Now as they
sat and ate....”
GE:
Make that, “18 Now as they sat and
ate....”
Not Jesus, but they. The literal: ‘Kai anakeimenohn autohn kai esthiontohn, ho Iehsous
eipen....’ “And they-sitting down and
they-eating, Jesus said, Verily I tell you....”; or, “Now at-sitting-down-of-them and at-of-them-eating, Jesus said, Verily
I tell you....”. The disciple did the sitting and the eating. Jesus only sat
down with them, and spoke to them. The Verbs in Plural are “of-them”-doing;
the Verbs in Singular are of Jesus’ doing.
Quite the opposite of yours.
Quoting ES,
“one of you who eats with me shall betray me”
GE:
Is it “eats”, or is it “eat”?
Get that, more specific:
“Jesus said, “Assuredly, I say to you, one of you will
betray me – the one by me (met’
emou) eating.”
Anyway, where does it say, Jesus, ate or drank? Nowhere!
Quoting ES,
“In another place, it mentions Jesus speaking of one
who would dip his hand in the dish, along with the Lord Jesus.
I
underlined “eat” and “ate” to show that it was indeed the Passover meal, and
that they did, in fact, eat of it.
Frankly,
I simply do not think the Lord was
'dipping his
hand' into the dish, and not eating this, and merely “playing in the food”.
GE:
As I have said, this (Mt26:23) is an idiomatic expression
for or of familiarity; it has no literal meaning. You have read the many
commentaries. Judas took advantage
of the trust between him and the Lord, is what Jesus wanted to say and quite
straight forward and frankly said with using this expression.
Luke says, “the hand of him who betrayeth me is with me
on the table”. Selfsame thing; literalness is out of the question.
Quoting ES,
“In another place, it mentions Jesus speaking of one
who would dip his hand in the dish, along with the Lord Jesus.”
GE:
John 13:17, Jesus “gave
to” Judas to show what He insinuated; it doesn’t even mention this
expression.
Once, or, more?
Mk14:20, read verse 19 first, then, “And He answered and
said unto them, It is one of the twelve that dippeth with me in the dish. ....
Woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed!”
Now there is no doubt bread was eaten only once during the
Lord’s Supper of the Last Meal, just like the cup was drunk only once in Holy Communion. I think it
is to the dishonour of the Lord’s Supper if the cup were used again. (Some
people insist the cup went round as many as four times --- and then I have noticed they deny the Passover’s Seder used unfermented wine!)
However, if you are right in assuming both verses 18 and 20
should be taken literally as if the disciples and Jesus actually ate, then food
was taken twice— which I also think
would dishonour the Lord’s Supper. Besides looking like the gluttony Paul wrote
against, it implies Christ’s dying once was not enough; as if He had to die
again.
I will not
Then Luke (22:16, as Mt) also says Jesus “took the
bread, broke it, and gave unto them.
.... And He took the cup .... and gave thanks .... and gave to them .... Take (ye)
this .... But I say unto you, I will
not drink of this fruit of the vine until ....”.
The idea, “henceforth / no more”, does not
imply Jesus this time did, drink, but won’t again drink until.... later. It
actually is an emphatic assurance, in, “I henceforth say unto you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine”;
“I say unto you, I will not this
time at all / in any wise drink of this fruit of the vine!” And as with the
wine, so was it with the bread.
Jesus would not at the table eat or drink of that on the
table. He at the table “being in agony” and “troubled in spirit” (Jn13:21),
“prayed”. (Lk22:44) As Christ “took the cup and gave thanks and gave to
them and they all drank” (Mk14:23), He, in his own spirit took the cup of
his sorrows, and drank it to the dredge, praising and glorifying God. “This
is my blood”; yet, “Now is the Son glorified, and God is glorified, in
Him.” Jn13:31.
Quoting ES,
“14 Nisan .... is
“Passover” .... referred to as a 'feast
day' in Leviticus ....”.
GE:
I do not find this the case.
Only Exodus
Nisan 14 is “Passover” referred to once as a 'feast day' in
Exodus (not in Leviticus), yes! Why? Because in Ex12:18 (23:15, 34:18 refer
to the dating in 12:17) the passover sacrifice was also eaten on Nisan 14 –
unlike anywhere else in the OT or Bible for that matter— until (I believe), the
Last Nisan 14 Passover in which Christ “offered Himself Sacrifice” both slaughtered and eaten on Nisan 14— (an insight new to me thanks to our present discussion!) The Last
Passover had to be finished before the day of Nisan 14 would end at sunset.
(The suffering and death of Christ meant the end of all Old
Testament sacrifices and feasts.
Feasting Christ “with regard to Sabbath’s’ Feast” (Col2:16), New
Testament believers feast all OT
institutions,
ceremonies, sacrifices and feasts.)
Nisan 14 in any other direct or indirect reference, is
never after Exodus named a ‘feast’ again, because the passover sacrifice was
always eaten on Nisan 15. (E.g., cf. Lv23:5 with Lv23:6; et
al.) Nisan 15, therefore, is found named, the Feast
of the Passover, everywhere except in Exodus.
In fact, Nisan 15 is not mentioned in Exodus.
Quoting ES,
“14 Nisan .... is not said specifically to be a Sabbath
nor an holy Convocation, unlike the Feast day of Unleavened Bread, Nisan 15,
which is a Sabbath, and an holy convocation, according to Leviticus 23.”
Passover-sabbath
I am glad you said “a
(s)abbath”, and
not ‘the Sabbath’, and I’m sure you know why: because the Feast Day of
Unleavened Bread, Nisan 15, always was ‘a sabbath’ (Lv23:11b, 15a, 16a), but
not necessarily the Seventh Day Sabbath. Passover-sabbath could coincide with
the Seventh Day Sabbath because it floated through the week and could fall on
any day of the week.
Nisan
15 Passover-Feast-sabbath (in the year the Lord was crucified), fell on Friday.
The beginning-part of Nisan 15 was ‘our’ Thursday night. Had Jesus had either
the Passover Meal or Lord's Supper
on Thursday night, He should on the next day – Friday – still have been alive
(and crucified)— which I and you, deny for irrefutable reasons He was on Friday.
Quoting ES,
“[Sigh!] Yes, I did quote Mk. 14:1.”
GE:
And I replied, “After two days was the Feast Day
(Sabbath) of the Passover that of Unleavened Bread Feast ...” it ‘was’,
Nisan 13.
Two days before
Now Mark 14:12 also exists, you know as well
as I do, which refers to the day directly after this one of verse 1, upon which
the Last Supper was eaten, Nisan 14, and one day before
the Passover Feast Sabbath of Unleavened bread eaten. (I think we still agree.)
Therefore you have two indicators to the sequence of the
days involved before the Feast
Sabbath Nisan 15, on
which — in its fore-part and evening of night — the Passover’s, Meal,
would have been eaten as the climax of the Feast of the Passover's eight days
of duration. Only the Jews ate the passover-meal that Nisan 15. They had not
had their part in the Passover Meal of Yahweh, which was Christ!
The Lord’s, Supper
– according to Mk14:1 and 12 – happened one
day before passover’s day on which the sacrificed lamb was to be eaten; one day before Nisan 15.
In the year of our Lord’s death,
Jesus instituted the Lord’s Supper the day
before Nisan 15
before the Sixth Day and
before “the Preparation which is the Fore-Sabbath”;
before the ‘Passover Feast-day’ and
before “that great day sabbath” of it; and
before the night in which the Jews ate their passover meal.
In the year of our Lord’s death,
Jesus instituted the Lord’s Supper
on Nisan 14 >
on the Fifth Day
>
in the night of
the Fifth Day >
in the evening
of Nisan 14’s beginning. >
The day presupposed starting and ending sunset,> the Lord’s Supper occurred
the Fifth Day of the week, ‘Thursday’, in the beginning of it,> on ‘Wednesday’ night “after one hour” after sunset. (Lk22:14)
Beginning of
Nisan 14
Maybe here is cause for concern; I don’t know your
position,
The Meal Jesus and His disciples gathered for, happened the
night beginning Nisan 14 (cf.
Mk14:12/17, Mt26:17/20, Lk22:7/14, Jn13:1), and before the Great Sacrifice of
that Passover of Yahweh would be slaughtered by crucifixion next daylight, “between
the pair of nights”-‘behn ha arbayim’
– Dual of ‘night’, according to Young.
I think you might prefer to find a difference between us on
this point. Many people force two days out of these Scriptures, claiming Mk14:12/Mt26:17/Lk22:7
implied daytime of Nisan 13, before the night of Mk14:17/Mt26:20/Lk22:14 would
have begun. But in Mk14:12/Mt26:17/Lk22:7 the start of day with evening after
sunset makes perfect sense, and the same time-slot beginning in
Mk14:12/Mt26:17/Lk22:7, is logically and naturally completed in
Mk14:17/Mt26:20/Lk22:14.
Elements of
Lord’s Supper
The Lord’s Supper consisted of two things eaten, only, bread, and wine – as the Christian Church
still observes it today! So how could the Lord’s Supper be “the passover” in
the sense of the passover’s meal of
the sacrifice, “bitter”, that is, with nothing else? It could not.
The old – and original – passover meal consisted of the meat
of the sacrifice of Nisan 14, so the
meal (of the sacrifice) could not be eaten before the day it would be
sacrificed – it had to be eaten the day after,
on Nisan 15, “in the evening”, and, “before
midnight”. The lamb and the unleavened bread were eaten together on Nisan 15, in the “night to be solemnly observed”—
in Exodus dated Nisan 14; in the rest of the Law, dated Nisan 15.
Nisan 15 therefore – because of the eating of ‘the Passover’ on it – was “Feast”,
or ‘Passover-Feast’, or, “Feast of Unleavened Bread (eaten)”, or, just ‘the
Passover’.
So what do we (or do I) quarrel about? How or where do we
at all differ, if I understand you correctly, as you have, and further, have
explained your position,
Quoting ES,
“And no, I do not
believe or teach that the Passover meal took place on “the evening of 'our'
Thursday night,” nor have I said this for some 40 years. (I did ignorantly say,
about that time, that the Crucifixion was on Wednesday for a year or so, until
I studied the Scripture a bit more closely, and realized that this took place
on Thursday, by our reckoning of time.) Nor have I even remotely agreed that
the Lord was crucified on Friday, by our reckoning, for more than 40 years,
either. 14 Nisan (or 14 Abib) is “Passover”, and which is also referred to in the
NT as “the Preparation” which, although referred to as a 'feast day' in
Leviticus, is not said specifically to be a Sabbath nor an holy Convocation,
unlike the Feast day of Unleavened Bread, Nisan 15, which is a Sabbath,
and an holy convocation, according to Leviticus 23.”
Quoting ES,
“I do not believe
or teach that the Passover meal took place on “the evening of 'our' Thursday
night,”
GE:
Then please, on which night was it? Only one possibility
remains, and that is on ‘our’ Wednesday night. Well, but that’s what he’s been saying!
Half a century have I been saying the same thing, and here we are at each
other’s throat? Just because you say ‘Passover Meal’, and I say, ‘Not the Passover
Meal’?
‘The
Preparation’ or “The Preparation of the Passover”
All I can think of where else we might differ, is here, “14 Nisan (or 14 Abib) is “Passover”, and which is
also referred to in the NT as “the Preparation...”” Do you have Jn19:14 in mind?
Because there, Nisan 14, the day of the Passover on which Jesus was crucified,
is called “The Preparation of the
Passover” – not simply ‘The Preparation’ as you here named it. Because ‘The
Preparation’ ‘ordinary’, it is said in Mk15:42, is the day “which is the
Fore-Sabbath”— Friday— Nisan 15 = “Feast of Passover” = “sabbath”
of passover in Jn19:31 and Mk15:42, in its beginning.
The (Jews’) and OT passover’s meal was eaten on Friday— evening before, after sunset
before midnight of Thursday night, according to the sunset reckoning of the day,
and after that Jesus had been crucified and had died. Is that what you believe was the Meal Jesus partook in?! That is
how anyone must understand you if you insist the Lord’s Supper was the
Passover’s Meal. But – as we both (I believe) understand the Scriptures, Jesus
would have been dead on Friday— dead since Thursday 3 pm in fact! So how would
he have eaten the passover-meal since he was dead?
Jesus Sacrificed
Both Sacrifice and Meal
Jesus therefore— because of everything above argued, must
have ordered his disciples to “Prepare
for the Passover” the Wednesday night
after sunset during evening, before
He the next day— for which He at the table was prepared, on Thursday / “Preparation
of the Passover Day” / Nisan 14, would “offer Himself Sacrifice” and thereby
himself would also eat the
Passover and drink its cup— ‘eating’,
as well as ‘drinking’— Himself being both
Sacrifice and Meal on Nisan 14— like in Exodus, once more and for ever!
The Sinoptists called this “The Day they had to kill / always killed the
passover, The (very) Day Leaven
(was) Removed (Adzumos)”. Or, John, calling it “The Preparation of the Passover”.
Nisan 14
was the day of Crucifixion / ‘Slaughter’-”Preparation-of-passover”;
was the immediate day
before the ‘usual’ “Preparation which is the Fore-Sabbath” (Nisan 15), and,
was the day on which the passover-meal was “once for all” ‘eaten’,
Christ Himself having been both
Sacrifice Sacrificed and Sacrifice Eaten.
Here is something it is possible we also differ on:
(We encountered the same kind of obstacle with regard to
Nisan 14.)
This Nisan 15
Friday, begins in Jn19:31
(and 38), Mk15:42, Mt27:57, and Lk23:50.
“Because it was the preparation (beginning) .... and because that day
was that ‘great day-sabbath’ beginning, the Jews asked Pilate that the bodies
might be removed”, Jn19:31 — on “the sabbath” namely, of Lv23:11,15.
(Removing of the bodies on the passover-sabbath would pose
the same problem for the Jews, whether they removed it late at the end of the
passover-sabbath, or soon after its beginning. But it is silly to think the
Jews only at the end of the holy day suddenly would try save face. Much rather
would they be shocked back to reality of the insulting display by the crosses
on their most sacred of feasts, as soon as the great day sabbath had started!)
Idiomatically, figuratively and literally, Jesus said,
“I with desire (acutely / greatly) desired this passover to
eat with you before my suffering,
but I tell you that no-more-by-any-means (‘ouketi ou meh’, definitely not) do I eat it” (‘fagoh auto’)— literally. There’s no, ‘Will I not
eat’, Future; but, actually, and presently at table, “Do I not eat, until it
(‘it’, ‘This Passover’) is fulfilled in the
This has been telling us, when, Jesus would actually eat and drink the Passover of Yahweh. In
fact He had already started to eat His Passover the Passover of Yahweh, and to empty
the cup of His Passover the Passover of Yahweh – Aorist – but not, by eating of
the bowl or drinking of the cup on the table physically, but by spiritually eating and drinking his
Suffering and Death. Jesus was busy eating the bowl and drinking the cup
destined for Him this Last of all Passovers of Yahweh already. He already
experienced being “in the heart of the earth”! Therefore declared He to
the disciples, “I will not drink of this
fruit of the vine”, but I shall eat the bitter fruit of your evil hearts.
The cup He in the meanwhile was drinking,
was the cup He already at the table, prayed His Father’s will over.
And this has also been the Lord telling us, where, He actually – retrospectively
speaking – did eat or had eaten and had drunk, the Passover of Yahwheh. Where,
actually then? “.... fulfilled in the
Is that too difficult to understand, that the ‘
Not if the Word is heard from texts like, “Truly the Son of
Man goeth (forth into His Glory).” “Son
of Man” is Title of Honour and Glory. “Goeth forth” is triumphal procession of
Victor Lord and King of the
Christ in entering into His Suffering, is as ‘He-That-Serveth’ that enters in into His Kingdom of Glory. ‘He-That-Serveth’ is His Name, “I AM Yahweh .... The
Servant of the LORD”.
Who ate the Lord’s Supper? “he that sitteth at meat (the
disciples who ate), or “He-That-Serveth”
and ate by, and in, serving? Serving
in laying down His Life for those whom He serves as King of and King in — having
entered into — “the
On the first passover of the exodus, the Israelites had to
stand up all through their vigil and meal. If they were to fall asleep, they
were to perish with the Egyptians.
But on the last Nisan 14 vigil, Jesus sympathised with the
weakness of human nature and flesh, and consoled the weary, “Sleep on”.
Because He, kept vigil for them, Lord Protector! and He, emptied the cup of the
Passover of Yahweh in their stead. The
Christ in His Kingdom – in the
I could not say these things before I found out about why
Exodus dates both Passover’s Sacrifice and Passover’s Meal on Nisan 14! And why
ever since the first passover, the meal of the passover, would always be
observed on Nisan 15, as reached it out towards the Passover Lamb of God and of
us promised, until He in having come
into His Kingdom, observed Passover— Sacrifice and, Meal, on Nisan 14!
“Christentum dass nicht ganz und gar Eschatologie ist, hat mit Christus Jesus ganz und gar und restlos, nichts zu tun!” (Karl Barth)
The beginning and the entering in
into the
This to me was unexpected. This for me was the discovery of my lifetime. Now I see the Gospel mixed with faith preached to them as to us!
Whether Jesus ate or did not eat, it gives no indication it
was the Passover Meal He ate! That He instituted and institutionalised the
Lord’s Supper though, is what revealed His Messiahship; that He had the
Authority to change times and laws Lawfully, in the very fulfilment and
confirmation of His Lordship and Messiahship over times and laws and “Principality,
and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in
this world, but also in that which is to come”. He had the Authority in the
very fulfilment and confirmation of His Lordship and Messiahship as Servant of
the Lord and King of the Kingdom of God, for God to “hath put all things
under his feet, and (to have given) Him as Head over all things to the Church
which is His Body — The All In All Fulfilling Fullness (of God)”.
....simply by Himself being Sacrifice, both sacrificed and eaten, on Nisan 14, working the “exceeding
greatness of His power to—us—ward”; His Power working to—us—ward, times and
law; toiling, serving to—us—ward, “This: My Body, eat! .... this: My Blood,
drink!” on, Nisan 14. “Harden
not your hearts as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the
wilderness. ...*** So I sware, they
shall not enter into my rest! Take heed, brethren, lest there be in
any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the Living God. But
exhort one another always, while it is called Today! Lest any of you be
hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ,
if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end. While it is
said, Today if ye will hear His Voice, harden not your hearts!”
Wait not till Nisan 15, but on Nisan 14, eat!
On Nisan 15, “according to the Scriptures” of the
Passover of Yahweh “Bring the remains with” of the Lamb, His body, and
outside
“Moreover brethren, I declare unto you the Gospel ....
which also ye, received, and wherein, ye stand! By which also, ye are saved.
.... For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, How that
Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures! And, that he was buried
(for our sins according to the Scriptures!) And, that He rose again (for
our justification) the third day according to the Scriptures!”
1Cor15:1-5.
***This is the Day of Christ and of the Partakers of Christ.
November 24 2008
Gerhard Ebersöhn
Private Bag X43
Sunninghill 2157
http://www.biblestudents.co.za