Bob Ryan wrote, September 24, 2005 06:17,
“Nice of you to admit that it is not simply "Christ entering Christ" -- finally!”
Unable to recognise your own remark? It Was this,
Bob Ryan, 10 Sept, “Apparently the NT shows the heavenly sanctuary to be REAL - to be a PATTERN SEEN after which the literal earthly sanctuary was modelled. So it is REAL. Built by God without hands. AND it has functional areas just as God says.”
I was not the writer of this nonsense – you were.
Note your contradictions: “the heavenly sanctuary to be REAL”, yet, “to be a PATTERN”; “without hands”, yet, “has functional areas” (like the sanctuary built with hands of men). A ‘pattern’s’ ‘function’ is to serve as ‘model’. Moses was shown the ‘model’ for, or of, the earthly sanctuary – not of the ‘heavenly sanctuary’ – to repeat.
you falsely use quotation marks as though I said, “"Christ
entering Christ"”. These are not my words, but yours! My words – and argument – have
been this, all along, Christ in being raised from the dead, entered into
exaltation and glorification of the heavenly sanctuary – and into its ‘
The nature of its event is essential of Sabbath’s Rest. Therefore I say it must have occurred the destined and prepared place and time, the Seventh Day on earth (as it is in heaven) through this Man returned from the dead.
Yes, you read me right, I understand the Sanctuary of heaven as an Event – The Event of it of all its time and creation; as its perfection, fulfilment, completion, sanctification, glorification, and blessing and peace promised and prophesied in Jesus Christ.
Worlds separate your SDA-conception of the ‘heavenly sanctuary’ from what I believe is the Scriptures’ presentation of it, and debating the differences in fact won’t serve any purpose but to confirm each of us in his own ideas. I’ve found that richly rewarding.
The essence of all differences amounts to this, that Jesus entered into the heavenly Sanctuary High Priest – He did not start officiating High Priest only two millennia later; He entered in to make final atonement once and for all and for eternity – not ever to be repeated or reviewed or re-enacted or reconfirmed; He did it in crowning Act of triumph over death and sin in the rising of Him from death and grave – not through any process of each in its own imperfect and insecure, consecutive stages of priesthood; Not in any way atonement not finished by the exceeding greatness of His power when God raised Christ from the dead.
BR, September 24, 2005 06:17,
“... on earth ... there are those who offer ... who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, SEE, He says, THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN.
Here THOSE who SERVE are
the PRIESTS on EARTH who SERVE in the temple built as directed by Moses, that
TEMPLE in which THEY serve is merely a COPY of the one IN HEAVEN.
As it turns out that was GOD saying that -- not me.”
Consider: The “Copy and shadow of the heavenly things”, “JUST AS”, “Moses was to erect the tabernacle”.
It does not say the ‘copy and shadow of the heavenly SANCTUARY’. It says, “copy and shadow of” what was to be erected by Moses – “JUST AS”, “the tabernacle”, “on earth”. So “the tabernacle”, “on earth” became a “copy / shadow” or type of “heavenly things” that were still to come, even the priesthood of Christ. It did not exist then as Christ had not yet been incarnated or raised. Thus, “there (“on earth” were) those (priests) who offer(ed) ... who serve(d) a copy and shadow of the heavenly things” that showed forth Christ.
Here those who serve as priests are those on earth who serve in a temple built by Moses, but not “directed by Moses”, because it was built according to the ‘directions’ or ‘copy’ or ‘pattern’ shown Moses “on the mountain”. God, in other words, was the Director of the tabernacle that Moses had to erect – that temple in which earthly priests serve according to the COPY on the mountain God had shown Moses, and which itself, was “a copy and shadow of the heavenly things” not yet realised, but that typified Christ.
But hear Bob Ryan’s
blasphemy – the blasphemy of Seventh Day Adventism –: “...
Said Bob Ryan, Sept. 24,
“Actually QUOTING GOD would be "REMEMBER
THE Sabbath day to keep it holy... FOR IN SIX DAYS THE LORD MADE... THEREFORE
THE LORD BLESSED the Sabbath day AND made IT HOLY" Ex 20:8-11.
If you believe that my statement above is NOT an accurate representation of GODS OWN STATEMENT in Exodus 20 - please point to something "substantive" to make your case that "it is just bob that thinks that way".”
Here’s my case, that it is just Bob that thinks that way:
"Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy... for in six days the Lord made... therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day AND made it holy", _IS NOT_, “actually QUOTING GOD” or Ex 20:8-11. It is MIS-quoting God and Ex. 20:8-11. You know full well why it is the falsification of the Word of God, Bob Ryan! You have done this before, many times; and you have simply not paid attention to my showing it out to you.
In any case, this is not what we are now discussing; you only try to lead us off track. We are discussing the (no, your,) ‘Investigative Judgement’. So I’ll not go into the subject of the Law further.
But this Law does have bearing on the subject of God Who Rested – in Jesus Christ as always. That, was and is the atonement God fully realised through and in the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. “God rested – THEREFORE!”. He only could, because “ALL the works of God”, had been “finished”, by “FINAL ATONEMENT” “WROUGHT” – accomplished through final victory over the ‘principalities’ of adversity and “ENMITY”!
You say, No, God did halve a job; He has not been fully successful; He better improve!
Bob Ryan (Sept 16):
“John 20 states at Christ's resurrection
"I have NOT YET ascended to the Father."”
No one tries to deny – at first and quick glance of your statement. But at closer look, again, your cunning becomes apparent. Again, you lie without blinking! John 20 does NOT state that, quote, “at”, Christ's resurrection, He declared, “I have NOT YET ascended to the Father.” Christ said that, at least fifteen hours after He “in the Sabbath’s fullness it being the very light of day towards the First Day of the week”, actually had risen from the dead. ‘At’ that moment in time and space – ‘at’ that hour of day in the unfolding of the plan of God’s atonement for and with lost sinners – “The High Priest of our Confession” Jesus Christ ascended His Throne of Majesty – Equal of and in Unity with the Heavenly God Almighty. Then, and there, He acted, High Priest, and had made finished and perfect atonement and reconciliation and Peace and had become “King of Salem” – “Prince of Peace” – ‘Mediator’ and ‘Intercessor’, crowned with glory in eternal Victory!
What Jesus talked about according to John 20:17, He did not say “at” this moment or on this day of His rising and exaltation, and it would not happen before forty days after.
And so one could take your allegations one by one and portion by portion and show the fallacy of every bit of it – just on the single principle of God’s having “finished all His works on the Seventh Day”: “For thus God concerning the Seventh Day did speak” by Word of Act of, in, and through Jesus Christ in resurrection from the dead.
As you said, “End of story.”
But you legalists can never find peace for you
cannot accept the Peace God had accomplished in the Son. Atonement through
Christ is not enough for you because it can do without human effort and
“But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.”
After His sacrifice and
ascension -- Christ is High Priest according to this text – and is officiating
with “His OWN blood”.
Hebrews 7 deals with the change in priesthoods – the MANY priests vs the priesthoods – the MANY priests vs the ONE High Priest Jesus Christ.”
“After His sacrifice and ascension ...”
What monstrous obfuscating is that doctrine which makes of no effect this clear Word of God, but divides Christ’s priesthood into a lesser and an improved – that makes Him begin office a minor, without authority to serve in the Most Holy, but only in ‘the Holy’ for nearly two thousand years, before he could ‘appear’ in the ‘Most Holy’ to at last begin – not finish yet – ‘final atonement’! For nothing – empty promise of God – that Jesus “as a high priest … through the greater and more perfect tabernacle … through the blood of the everlasting covenant … appeared …(and) entered the holy place once for all … never having obtained eternal redemption, not even having started making ‘final atonement’ yet! Notice how this vain dogma neatly sidesteps Christ’s resurrection and so makes it of no consequence in the whole “process” of atonement or redemption. It does not only make no mention of it; it carefully works its way around it, with full consciousness of it ignoring it, as if it played no part in God’s work of salvation.
I before have made a collection of the many ways the writer of Hebrews describes Jesus’ resurrection and wherein the most pertinent descriptions are Christ’s “entering” and “appearing”. Suppose these terms do not apply to the resurrection of Jesus, and completely destroyed is the writer’s whole argument, and the very foundation of it. Then he talks in the air, just air. So either the SDA error of an ‘Investigative Judgement’ is no more than thin (and smelling) air; or Luther perhaps was right this Book belongs not in the New Testament. No, therefore; it is this stinking doctrine that should be discarded!
So it is mere empty words of Bob Ryan to dare say,
“-- Christ is High Priest according to this text – and is officiating with “His OWN blood”. Hebrews 7 deals with the change in priesthoods – the MANY priests vs the priesthoods – the MANY priests vs the ONE High Priest Jesus Christ”, but to maintain, “the change in priesthoods” occurred not in the event of the resurrection of Jesus once for all, but to deny “officiating with “His OWN blood”” is Christ in resurrection from the dead being ascended into heaven and into heavenly temple and into High Priestly office.
The Letter to the Hebrew Christians was meant to make this clear to them – and nothing else – that they believed in an atonement finished and perfected because they believed in Jesus who had risen from the dead. The point of it has nothing in common with, nor supports in the least, the least of the SDA-horror of an ‘Investigative Judgement’.
God had investigated my sins and the sins of every redeemed, in Christ, and had found us guilty, and had paid for our sins fully, in Jesus, and through Him; and in Him had forgiven us because He had found us guiltless in the Son; and had raised us into eternal life in Him, and through Him, and for His sake, because He so loved the Son, He had given Him every one He came for and had given Himself for to save them – for whom He conquered and had acquired, having “wrought” their eternal salvation.
We are free who can or are allowed to believe this Good News; we may rejoice now in a work done and done well – God’s perfect work; His Act of Rest in the Son. We may now enter into the Rest of God – He had provided fullness of assurance. We may feast Sabbaths now because He had entered in!
We are back to where we have started: The SDA Church won’t believe Jesus rose from the dead “IN SABBATH’S-TIME” because they won’t believe God in raising Christ from the dead, entered in into His Rest.
“... In Rev 22 we see that the Throne of God is where the Tree of Life is. IT is all in the New Jerusalem that comes down OUT OF HEAVEN. ... When Christ GOES to the FATHER - He is going to HEAVEN.”
The Tree of Life is where the Throne of God is. The New Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven comes from God. Heaven is where God is – not God is where heaven is.
God is everywhere; so this earth is in heaven as much as any other place. This earth particularly is where the throne of God is, seeing this planet is the centre of all His power and rule, love and out-going grace through Jesus Christ “to us-ward”.
God descended to planet earth, on the Mount of Olives, where Joseph’s grave was, and raised Christ from the dead; and “exalted” Him “and set / seated / enthroned (crowned / anointed) Him at His own right hand in the heavenlies, far above all principality and power and might and dominion and every name that is named not only in this world / creation / universe / age, but also in that which is to come; and hath put all under His feet, and gave Him, the Head over all, to the Church … the fullness that filleth all in all :- when He raised Christ from the dead.”
In the language of the writer of Hebrews, it actualised when “The God of Peace brought Him again from the dead”; when “He entered in into His own rest as God”. (13:20; 4:10) “So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my Helper. … (For) ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem … to the General Assembly and Church of the Firstborn … and to God the Judge of all … to Jesus the Mediator of the New Covenant … (to) Him from heaven … Let us go forth therefore unto Him … we have an Alter … The High Priest for sin … Jesus Christ the same yesterday and today and forever.” – Hebrews 13:20, 6; 12:22-25; 13:13, 10, 8.
Matthew declared: “I am with you always!”
So, once more: Where is
‘heaven’? It is where God is, and us, through the faith of His Christ. For God
‘came down’ and raised Christ from the grave in the
Who is “ignoring the details and denying the obvious”? Bob Ryan!
“Is it your confession now that the FULL Day of Atonement process DID NOT END with the slaying of the "Lord's Goat" at the start of the chapter?”
silly question! The ‘full day’ of ‘the Day of Atonement’ ended not with “the
slaying of the "Lord's Goat"” – it began with it. But the Scripture says that
the priest “on that day shall make atonement” (30). He had to “make
an end of atonement”; he didn’t just begin some ‘process’ of atonement that had to
be completed at some later stage. He completed everything, “an
atonement for all the congregation of
Jesus, made atonement, “that day”, “ONCE FOR ALL” – perfect, finished, atonement!
The priests were only mortals, while Jesus conquered death. So therefore – as the text describes it – when and as the earthly priests “came out” of, and appeared from, the temple, they actually completed the day’s work of atonement. (17-18) The temple therefore resembles death and grave, for as Jesus was “brought again from the dead” (Hb.13:20), He so made a finishing of His work of atonement for eternity. “When he hath made an end of reconciling the Holy, and the Tabernacle of the Congregation (the Church of the Elect) and the altar (the preaching of the Word), he shall BRING THE LIVE goat”.
The two goats are both symbols of Christ. Only Christ had the power to both lay down his life and to take it up again. The animals had power for neither. So the sacrificed goat showed forth Christ as Sacrifice; and the live goat showed forth Christ in resurrection of life carrying away into oblivion “their iniquities” He made sacrifice for.
After he had made atonement in every respect, the High Priest had to enter the tabernacle to “put off his garments” of High Priestly Office, and to put on the clothes of an ordinary priest straight away – only because he was a mortal sinner. But Christ having risen ‘incorruptible’, put on royal robe, and was crowned King unconquerable and holy “for ever and ever”. (Ex.15:18)
As with mortal things “the life of the flesh is in the blood”, with the Immortal the life of life is in the life of Him who rose from the dead. “I have given it to you on the altar to make an atonement for your souls …”, says God. With God, it is the Life of God “that maketh an atonement for the soul.” God gave His Life – His only begotten Son –and thus in raising Him from the dead – in the One – made reconciliation and atonement for all our iniquities!
“Now once He put away sin by the sacrifice of HIMSELF.” Hb.9:26
“This He did (to offer up sacrifice for sins) once, when He offered up Himself … this is the sum, we have such an High Priest, set at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens!” Hb.7:27, 8:1
“Made higher than the heavens”, He had been, “High Priest”; only “such an High Priest, became us.” Hb.7:26
In process for long now left undone – I publish it as it is (11 June 2009)