Christiaan
Gerhardus Ebersöhn
Full Moon in the Bible
‘Full
Moon in the Bible’
by Christiaan Gerhardus Ebersöhn
http://www.biblestudents.co.za
http://www.thelordsday.wordpress.com
Full
Moon in the Bible
Krause:
http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/printthread/Board/102/main/62564/type/thread.html
What
is it with Resurrection Sunday? One year it’s in March, the next in April! Is
it true the British parliament tried to force the issue? And was ignored?
Check out the statement in paragraph 5! Very interesting!
Read more at [cut]
Here's the
first statement of paragraph 5:
After all, the death and burial
of Jesus Christ occurred on the day before Passover.
Samie:
This is true.
Passover is a
full moon feast. That is why God instructed that Passover meal is always to be
eaten after sunset of the 14th in the first month of the Hebrew calendar which
is lunisolar. On any lunisolar calendar, the nighttime after sunset of the 14th
of any month is ALWAYS a full moon. Why? Because the Creator designed the lunar
cycle to be so.
The lunar
cycle or the period from new moon to the next new moon is on the average 29
days 12 hours and 44 minutes. The period from new moon to full moon is one half
of this value and is equal to 14 days 18 hours and 22 minutes. This explains
why the nighttime after sunset of the 14th of any month in a NON-FAULTY
lunisolar calendar is ALWAYS a full moon.
This full moon
evidence seemed to have been forgotten in the previous attempts of not a few
scholars to arrive at the correct crucifixion date of our Lord. Jesus ate
Passover on a full moon night, a day ahead of the Jewish national celebration.
He was arrested that same night and crucified on the daytime that came which
was preparation day of Passover. The Jews ate Passover nighttime after sunset
that crucifixion day.
After all, the death and burial
of Jesus Christ occurred on the day before Passover.
Sorry, but as
I compare it with Scriptures, this statement is questionable, as we shall soon
see.
Let us first
take a look at the possible full moon occurrence when the Lord ate Passover
with His disciples the night He was arrested. That full moon was the first full
moon AFTER the date of vernal equinox. The Lord was crucified in the reign of
Pilate - 26 AD to 36 AD. Here are the different full moon occurrences AFTER date of vernal equinox in those years (Add 2 hours to
get
26 April 20 Noon Sat.
27 April 9 4 p.m. Wed.
28 March 29 3 a.m. Mon.
29 April 17 3 a.m. Sun.
30 April 6 8 p.m. Thu.
31 March 27 11 a.m. Tue.
32 April 14 9 a.m. Mon.
33 April 3 3 p.m. Fri.
34 March 23 3 p.m. Tue.
35 April 11 8 a.m. Mon.
36 March 30 2 p.m. Fri
Considering
that the apostle John recorded 3 Passovers after the baptism of Jesus which
Luke said occurred in the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius which started 14
AD, Jesus' baptism was 28 AD. The 3 Passovers recorded by John would have to be
those in 29, 30 and 31 AD.
In 31 AD, full
moon was Tuesday. If Christ ate Passover that night, then He was also arrested
that same night, crucified Wednesday, and after 3 days and 3 nights as He
Himself specified in Mt 12:40, He resurrected early Saturday morning. That He,
in fact, resurrected Saturday, is corroborated in Mark 16:9 where it is
specified that the Lord resurrected on "proi prote sabbatou" or early
morning of the chief Sabbath. Between a ceremonial sabbath and the weekly
sabbath in that paschal week, the chief sabbath is undoubtedly the weekly
sabbath, Saturday.
SDA scholars
believe in a Friday crucifixion, April 27, 31 AD.
It follows
that Jesus ate Passover on Thursday evening, April 26. But full moon was on
Wednesday, Apr 25 9:59PM,
Gerhard:
The so called
<Resurrection Sunday> you would
have noticed is always <on Sunday>
in the world under Roman Catholic domination. It is because in this 'world',
'Good Friday' is always on 'Friday' as near as possible <on a new moon>—a PAGAN festival!
You would have
noticed from the <article> that
<<the death and burial of Jesus
Christ occurred on the day before Passover.>>
So <Easter> is always on the same days of
the week in the Roman Catholic world but on different dates, every year.
It is because the passover in the Old Testament
was “proclaimed to (or) in its season”—its ‘annual’ “season”,
spring. New moon after equinox was “proclaimed” the first day of the
First Month of the year (‘Abib’ or ‘Nisan’). Naturally the new moon could occur
on any day of the week, and consequently, the full moon, fourteen / fifteen
days after.
Ron:
I've heard
many people claim that Passover is determined by the vernal equinox (using
either the new moon or the full moon after equinox). But I don't see anything
in Scripture that ties Passover to the equinox in any way.
Does the Passover connection to equinox come
from the Catholics? Or does it come from the writings of the Jewish sages (such
as the Talmud)?
Samie:
Did you know
that in the first month of the Hebrew calendar, the full moon ALWAYS occurs
after the vernal equinox? And this full moon, in a NON-FAULTY Hebrew lunisolar
calendar, ALWAYS falls in the nighttime after sunset of Nisan 14.
Ron:
If we were to
determine Passover only by the instructions contained in Scripture (which is
the goal of the Karaite Jews), it would come near the middle of the lunar month
when the barley crop will first be ready for Wave Sheaf day (during the week
after Passover). And the first day of the month of Abib would be determined by
the first sighting of the crescent moon in Israel soon after sundown (as it was
at the time of Jesus), rather than being determined by modern astronomers using
the calculated conjunction of the moon, which is erroneously called "new
moon" today. (It actually marks the time of no moon rather than the time
of new moon.)
I am aware
that after the destruction of
Samie:
So then, you
are not aware that the first full moon in a NON-FAULTY Hebrew calendar ALWAYS
occurs AFTER the vernal equinox. My source?
Ron:
I read post
#694318 again. There is no source mentioned for the assertions you made, so
apparently you have invented your own calendar and declared it
"non-faulty" yourself.
Samie:
What is more
apparent is the non-interest in your part to know that the average lunar cycle
is 29 days 12 hours and 44 minutes, and that the first full moon in the Hebrew
year always fall after the time of the vernal equinox. You just could have
easily proven it by yourself via cyberspace, brother. But why the non-interest
in said fact? Afraid that fact will prove Samie's point is correct?
Ron:
If you were
God, that would certainly give your calendar credibility. But since that is not
the case, citing yourself as a source doesn't validate your imaginary calendar.
I know how long the lunar
cycle is. Because I want to observe God's feasts as taught in the Bible, I also
pay attention to lunar months, the sighted new moons, and the necessity of
adding a 13 month at the end of some years so that Passover occurs when the
Barley crop in
How do you
define the Hebrew year? Are you defining the Hebrew year as "a year that
starts (and ends) with the lunar conjunction closest to the Spring
equinox" or something similar? Where do you find that definition in the
Bible? Where do you find that definition in historical documents of the
Israelites during
I'm not
interested in circular reasoning. I'm interested in learning God's ways so I
can follow the example of Jesus. When you start presenting evidence that
supports your theory from Scripture and from history and evidence that shows
how your theory relates to the way that Jesus and the believing Jews of his day
lived, then I'll be interested.
Any teenager
can take astronomical software and start concocting speculative theories about
historical months and years using modern ideas and definitions that were not
used in
Samie:
What's with
the tenor in your statement, brother?
Ron:
I have
directly asked you for evidence to support your assertions about your
speculative calendar theory. I have asked you for definitions of the terms you
use, but you have not answered the questions nor presented the necessary
evidence. Instead you have only repeated your assertions as if you expected
people to accept your word as authoritative. That would work if you were God.
Everyone else has to present real evidence to support their assertions, but so
far you have not done so.
Samie:
Is it
necessary to prove your point? If nighttime after sunset in the 14th of any
month in a lunisolar calendar is not full moon, doesn't that make that calendar
faulty?
Ron:
Faulty
according to what definition and by what standard? Who says that the full moon
has to occur in the middle of a month? There are people who (erroneously)
believe that Biblical months start at full moon. They quote the same Bible
verses that you quote to supposedly prove their theory. But they don't present
any real evidence, except that they don't want to define a month the same way
the Jews defined a month.
Samie:
I am afraid my
brother is not really aware that 14th nighttime is always a full moon.
Ron:
That depends
on when you start counting the first day of the month. You apparently start
counting the days of the month somewhere near the calculated lunar conjunction.
In which location on earth (in which time-zone) does the first day of the month
begin? If the conjunction occurs two hours after sunset at that location, do
you count the next daylight as the first day of the month or the last day of
the previous month? Where does the Bible describe your method of determining
the start of a month? Which historical documents describe the Jewish people of
The writings
of the Jewish sages describe a different method of determining the start of a
lunar month that was used at the time of Jesus. They depended on witnesses
observing the first sliver of the new moon soon after sunset. The website of
the modern Sanhedrin (sanhedrin.org) indicates that in the years ahead they
expect to once again use the sighting of the new moon to determine the start of
a month. Using that historical method, the 14th nighttime of a lunisolar month
is usually not a full moon.
Krause:
Exactly Ron.
It matters not if the Moon is "full" "blue" "new"
"green" red, etc. Passover starts on Nisan 14, the lamb is eaten
after sundown on the 14th, which would make the 15th Nisan the first day of
Passover. Its to bad that Samie doesn't confirm with his local Jewish Rabbis to
find out the real times and not just some theory that he holds as gospel!!!!!
Samie:
How would you
compare the medieval computations then for possible crescent sighting with the
computations using computers done today for ascertaining full moon occurrences
forward or backward in time, Ron?
Can you cite
any existing document that contains record of crescent sightings in the time of
Jesus, Ron, which you said was basis for starting day 1 of the month? Consider
this verse:
1 Samuel 20:5 And David said
unto Jonathan, Behold, to morrow is the new moon, and I should not fail to sit
with the king at meat: but let me go, that I may hide myself in the field unto
the third day at even.
When did David
first see the crescent prompting him to say to Jonathan that tomorrow is the
new moon and thus start day 1 of the new month? Does this not prove that
probable crescent sightings were likewise precomputed?
Ron:
No, this
doesn't prove that they were using a pre-computed calendar. Here are some other
possibilities, beginning with the least likely one:
We aren't told the time of day
when David was talking to Jonathan. If they were watching the sky after sunset
David may have seen the sliver of moon and pointed to it when he said,
"Behold, to morrow is the new moon."
Or if it was after dark, they
may have already heard the report of the new moon sighting and could make plans
for the
next day's feast.
Or they may have known that a
lunar month would have only 29 or 30 days before the next new moon, so if they
were talking at any hour on the 30th day of the month they would have known
already that the next day would be the new moon, even if the sky was overcast
and the new moon could not be sighted that evening. This is the procedure
currently used by the Karaite Jews.
Samie:
So then, you
are not aware that the first full moon in a NON-FAULTY Hebrew calendar ALWAYS
occurs AFTER the vernal equinox. My source? Read post #694318, and post your
objections, if any.
Therefore,
there was precomputation done, mentally or otherwise, which negates your
assertion that they have first to see the crescent.
Ron:
No. Even if it
existed, such a document probably wouldn't be of much use for your purposes
because it wouldn't be referenced to other known calendars. It might possibly
list how many days were in the preceding month, and the names of the witnesses
who saw the moon. The method of determining the new moon that was used before
the destruction of the
Samie, two of
the three possible scenarios that I listed actually did require a sighting of
the new moon on the same day that David was speaking to Jonathan.
The one
scenario that did not require a direct sighting of the new moon on the same day
that David spoke to Jonathan does require an unsuccessful attempt to sight the
new moon on the previous evening, after the 29th day of the month. If the new
moon is not detected by direct observation after the 29th day of the month,
David could have known that the day after the 30th day would be the new moon
feast. It does involve a very basic system of knowing just one day ahead of
time that the new moon will come after the 30th day.
Counting the
days from 1 to 30 since the previous new-moon sighting could possibly be
considered to be a "precomputation", but it is also a normal part of
time-keeping during a month. The Bible contains many examples of counting days
to keep track of passing time. Indeed the very first days mentioned in the
Bible were being counted from one to seven and God actually commanded the
Israelites to count 50 days to determine when Shavuot (Pentecost) would occur
each year. So counting a sequence of days is a God-ordained skill that God
expected the Israelites to have and use.
Counting the
days in a month is many magnitudes simpler than the complex calculations that
are required to determine "new moon" by the methods that you are
using. Observing the first sliver of the new moon after sunset and counting the
days of the month is a calendar system that is accessible to everyone, whether
they are a simple shepherd boy or the high priest.
By contrast,
there are no examples in the Bible of people determining any of God's appointed
times using the man-made system that you want us to use to determine the day of
Passover.
Samie:
In Bible
times, the Israelites do not need our present technology to determine when is
Passover. But for us now to determine when they had their Passover 2 millennia
ago cannot base our determination on when they then sighted the crescent
because there is no existing record of crescent sightings. But using full moon
occurrences which we can easily trace forward or backward in time via existing
technology, it is possible to determine the day of Passover 2
millennia ago,
because Passover is a full moon feast.
Ron:
Your system
requires the knowledge of of an astronomer and a mathematician, skills and
offices that are not mentioned at all when God instructed the Israelites to
observe his Passover.
Samie:
If there's no
such document, then sorry, but it looks like what you have are mere
assumptions. And truth can NOT be based on assumptions.
Ron:
Samie, it is
you who is trying to prove that Passover fell on specific days in specific
years, not me.
Samie:
But you said I
am wrong, but when I asked you for proof you have none.
Ron:
There are
significant differences between the way the Jews determined Passover in the
time of Jesus and the way Samie has tried to reconstruct the dates for Passover
using modern methods.
I don't need a
document listing the dates of new moon sightings. I am simply telling you that
your methods of determining when a month begins are non-biblical and non-historical.
Samie:
That's not the
issue. I was just pointing out that the full moon was an evidence not resorted
to by those who based their notion on crescent sightings, for which no record
exists
and which you
yourself acknowledged there is none.
Ron:
Samie, we do
have reliable historical documents telling us that the Jewish Sanhedrin of the
The fact that you are using non-Biblical and
non-historical methods to try to determine the date that Jesus died means that
you will very likely come up with the wrong dates for Passover and the wrong
year for Jesus' death.
Samie:
Yes. The
discrepancy lies in the accuracy of computation. Full moon occurrences can be
ascertained forward or backward in time, Ron. Unlike crescent sightings for
which no record exists, except in the minds of some.
Ron:
I see no
reason to use calculations to try to ascertain which day Jesus died.
Samie:
You see no
reason, of course, because you don't know where to base your calculation.
Ron:
The Jewish sages
that lived not long after the time of Jesus described the methods used by the
Jews to determine the new moon during the time when Jesus lived and died. The
document with that description (or copies thereof) do exist. Of course, the
existence of that document doesn't "prove" that the method that the
sages described was the method actually used when Jesus died. I acknowledge
that it is possible that the document I refer to could contain erroneous
information. However, historical documents such as the one I refer to are
considered to be reliable evidence of historic practices when they do not
contain internal errors and do not contradict the other evidence available. The
method of determining the start of a new month that was described by the Jewish
sages is considered to be valid historical evidence and it is also compatible
with the evidence found in the Bible.
Samie:
I was just
presenting a better alternative, brother, the full moon occurrence. Using
current technology, full moon occurrences could be easily traced forward or
backward in time. Rather than base a point that Jesus could have eaten Passover
on this or that date because the crescent COULD HAVE BEEN sighted on this or
that date. I am not arguing with you on when a month starts but when Jesus ate
Passover with His disciples that night He was arrested.
Ron:
I'm not
convinced that the traditional dates are accurate, but there are far too many
unfounded assumptions in your methods for your results to be believable.
Samie:
Such as? Point
out even one, out of the many.
Why did Jesus
eat Passover a day ahead of the Jews?
Ron:
He could have
been using a Galilean calendar (or moon sighting) rather than the Judean
calendar. Or he knew that he would be dead before the Passover meal would be
eaten, so he planned an early meal.
Samie:
Assumptions.
Compare your reason with mine. Again, God instructed that Passover be eaten on
a full moon, and Christ Who said He came to fulfill the law which obviously
includes the law on when to eat Passover, ate Passover on the night the moon
was full.
Chances are,
the sighting came a day late, but full moon occurrence can NEVER be delayed,
regardless of when the young crescent was first seen in the western horizon of
Ron:
In practice,
it isn't that easy to detect which night is the fullest moon. If the
astronomical full moon occurs during the day, the moon can appear equally full
two nights in a row
Samie:
Our Savior was through Whom God made the worlds, including the moon. Would He
not know on which night then was full moon?
Remember,
Jesus will only eat Passover on the night the moon is full.
Ron:
As far as I
can tell, this is just your unfounded assumption.
Samie:
And I don't
blame you because you are not yet aware that God instructed it to be so. Read
my post #694470 and post your objections, if any.
Ron:
I don't see
anywhere in Scripture where we are instructed to ascertain the phases of the
moon either forward or backward in time.
Samie:
Neither do
Scriptures tell us to use the Internet.
Ron:
God told us
enough so that we can observe His appointed times as they occur. Certainly
calculations can be done, but without detailed historical records (which are
not known) the calculations will not allow you to ascertain what day Passover
occurred in any given year almost 2000 years ago.
Samie:
That's because
you are not aware that Passover is a full moon feast.
Krause:
I'm in total
agreement, besides if we actually go by the Bible, Passover is on the 15th of
Nisan not when there is a full moon. I look at his link to full moons, etc.,
and other than a few times the 14th of Nisan and the Full moon, doesn't come at
the same time. And one date was so far off, it wasn't even funny.
Samie:
You don't
believe that Passover is a full moon feast,
brother?
Consider this:
NASB Psalm 81:3-5 3 Blow the
trumpet at the new moon, At the full
moon, on our feast day. 4 For it is a statute for
What feast was
instituted in
KJV Exodus 12:6 And ye shall
keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly
of the congregation of
11 And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet,
and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD'S passover. 12 For I will
pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in
the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will
execute judgment: I am the LORD
The 14th at
evening, a full moon, is eating of Passover.
There is no
Nisan 14 in the link I provided. You interpolated the dates of the full moon
with a Hebrew calendar of your choice. So why blame Samie if Nisan 14 in the
Hebrew calendar of your choice did not fall on a full moon?
As to the times and dates of full moon occurrences,
they are precise, brother. But as for how calendar makers arrived at their date
in the Hebrew calendar you used as basis for the Nisan 14 that corresponds to
the full moon occurrence, don't blame that on me. I have nothing to do with the
faulty calendar you used.
Again, on a
NON-FAULTY lunisolar calendar, the nighttime after sunset on the 14th of any
month is ALWAYS a full moon.
Gerhard:
Ever since the
exodus passover fell on different days of the week until the end of the
eleventh century when the Catholic Church split over the very issue of the
dating of passover into the Roman Catholic church and the Eastern or Greek
Orthodox church.
The Greek
section was seen as ‘orthodox’ because it stuck to the “seasonal proclamation”
of ‘Easter’ [into which the passover had been changed]. The western or Roman
section of the church adopted the weekdays constant of the heathen
spring-festival of ‘Easter’ and had to come after the ‘Jewish’ passover, not
simply to dissociate with the Jews, but to have Resurrection day always
coincide with Sunday.
‘Eastern’ or ‘Greek’ Christianity until this day
observe ‘Holy Week’ or ‘Passion Week’ according to the annual or seasonal
reckoning of the passover days of the fourteenth, fifteen and sixteenth days
after first new moon after equinox. These three dates are today still observed
as—for example—Tuesday Crucifixion-day (day 14 after new moon); Wednesday
Burial-day (day 15 after new moon); Thursday Resurrection-day (day 16 after new
moon). As mentioned before, these three days could be any three days of the
week.
So, where the
Roman Easter is always over the same weekdays, the Greek Easter is on any three
days of the week.
Because the first after spring equinox can fall
on any day of our present calendar, the date of Easter in the Roman just like
in the Greek Catholic church, will fall on different days of the month as well
as on different months depending when the first after equinox new moon
occurred.
Samie
Did you know that in the first
month of the Hebrew calendar, the full moon ALWAYS occurs after the vernal
equinox? And this full moon, in a NON-FAULTY Hebrew lunisolar calendar, ALWAYS
falls in the nighttime after
sunset of Nisan 14.
Ron:
I've heard
many people claim that Passover is determined by the vernal equinox (using
either the new moon or the full moon after equinox). But I don't see anything
in Scripture that ties Passover to the equinox in any way.
Does the Passover connection to equinox come
from the Catholics? Or does it come from the writings of the Jewish sages (such
as the Talmud)?
If we were to
determine Passover only by the instructions contained in Scripture (which is
the goal of the Karaite Jews), it would come near the middle of the lunar month
when the barley crop will first be ready for Wave Sheaf day (during the week
after Passover). And the first day of the month of Abib would be determined by
the first sighting of the crescent moon in Israel soon after sundown (as it was
at the time of Jesus), rather than being determined by modern astronomers using
the calculated conjunction of the moon, which is erroneously called "new
moon" today. (It actually marks the time of no moon rather than the time
of new moon.)
There are significant differences between the
way the Jews determined Passover in the time of Jesus and the way Samie has
tried to reconstruct the dates for Passover using modern methods.
Gerhard:
The Passover
connection to equinox does not come from the Catholics or from the writings of
the Jewish sages such as the Talmud. It
comes from the Books of Moses. The Passover connection to equinox is IMPLIED.
Gregory:
Gerhard, it is
implied only for those who have been educated to think that Spring starts at
the vernal equinox.
The Books of Moses do not use a word that refers
to the season of Spring. The word used is "Abib", which does not mean
Spring at all, but rather it refers to the soft green grain heads of barley.
The first
mention of Abib is in Exodus 9:31 after the plague of hail. "And the flax and the
barley was smitten: for the barley was in the ear [abib], and the flax was bolled."
The month of Abib was tied to the
development of the barley in the land. It was not tied to the equinox in any
way. Depending on the weather, the barley could develop heads early, or it
could develop heads later. It was the development
of the barley heads that
determined the month of Abib.
The ripened
heads of barley were required to celebrate the Day of the Wave Sheaf, which
came a few days after the Passover meal. Also, the Israelites were forbidden by
God to use the barley harvest until after the Day of the Wave Sheaf (Lev
23:14).
If a person
were to tie the month of Abib to the equinox instead of to development of the
barley crop in the land it could cause major problems for the Israelites. On an
equinox-tied calendar there could be some years when there was no barley ready
to wave on the Day of the wave sheaf, and there would be some years when the
barley crop came early (after the hungry months of winter), but the people
wouldn't be allowed to eat it until the after-equinox Passover and Day of the
Wave Sheaf rolled around a month later.
The main
reason that Passover is not tied to the equinox is because God commanded the
Israelites to celebrate Passover in the month of Abib -- the month of tender
green ears of barley in
Gerhard:
“This month,
THE BEGINNING OF MONTHS, shall to you be the First Month [implied: of the
year].” Exodus 12:2. Numbers 10:10; 9:22
Implied, is
the “time” of YEAR Exodus 34:18; or “TIME of month” Exodus 23:15; or “SEASON”
of year or and month, Leviticus 23:4 -- which simply was spring-time -- which
simply started on the day of vernal equinox. Then because the “month” [of 30
days] is the important thing, the first after equinox new moon is presupposed –
taken for granted – as the first day of the First Month.
“Observe the
MONTH OF ABIB … BECAUSE the LORD brought you OUT in the month of Abib.”
Deuteronomy 16:1
“A whole
month” (Numbers 11:20,21) was 30 days. [Par. 5.1.1.6.1.3.2. ‘
Thus equinox
is in fact in the Scriptures <tied to Passover> indissolubly, inevitably
and undeniably, but the <<full moon>> or <<day of the full
moon>>—although it consequentially would fall on the 14th/15th day of the
month—, is not so much as mentioned once in connection with the passover or
even as another feast day whatsoever!
The importance attached to the full moon or day
of the full moon cannot even be said to have <<come from the writings of
the Jewish sages (such as the Talmud)>> because they too necessarily
determined the full moon from the new moon.
The lobsided
importance attached to the full moon and day of the full moon passover is
directly attributable to twenty– and twenty first century Wednesday
crucifixionists [like one Samie in this discussion].
Samie:
This is true,
after all, the death and burial of Jesus Christ occurred on the day before
Passover.
Gerhard:
This is NOT
true.
<<<death and burial of Jesus Christ
occurred>>> NOT <<<on the day before Passover>>>.
The death of
Jesus was "on the first day of no leaven they always had to KILL the
passover on" Mark 14:12 Luke 22:7 Matthew 26:17 John 13:1; 19:14 "The
Preparation OF PASSOVER"
The burial of
Jesus began with Joseph of Arimathea’s “sudden arrival” Luke 22:50 “evening
having had come already” Mark 15:42 “since it had become The Preparation…and
that day was great day sabbath” of passover, and “The Preparation which is The
Fore-Sabbath”, and he – Joseph, “after the Jews” John 19:31,38 “the first
night” of unleavened bread John 19:39 with Nicodemus’ help “prepared the body
of Jesus to the customary Ethics of the Jews to bury”
…and the following “mid-afternoon That Day The
Whole Day The Preparation while the Sabbath … according to the (Fourth)
Commandment … was nearing” Luke 23:54, had the body laid down in the sepulchre
and closed with the stone.
Samie:
Jesus ate
Passover on a full moon night, a day ahead of the Jewish national celebration.
He was arrested that same night and crucified on the daytime that came which
was preparation day of Passover. The Jews ate Passover nighttime after sunset
that crucifixion day.
Gerhard:
So, according
to you, unleavened bread after the exodus, was eaten on the fourteenth day of
the First Month?!
Well, after the exodus it was eaten as written, "on the FIFTEENTH
day".
Samie:
You cannot
blame a person who does not know Physics if he is not aware that the
acceleration of a freely falling body is 9.8 meters per second per second.
Gregory:
A half truth
that is mostly true for an object at the surface of the Earth.
It may not
true for objects outside of our solar system, or for objects on other planets.
I may be true
in Newtonian physics.
It may not be
true in General Relativity considerations.
It is not true
for an object at the top of
NOTE: I could
list more. But, this should be a start.
Samie:
Oh, the
Professor. Yes. You are right, and I agree with your point. But I was not
responding to your post. If it were your post I was responding to, it would
have been a different picture.
Now, post your
objection to my posts, and I will gladly respond the way you want.
In fact, he
will consider the occurrence of the phrase "per second per second" as
a redundancy.
Similarly, if
one does not know that Scriptures specify Passover to be a full moon feast, you
cannot blame him if he sneers at someone who correlates Passover with the full
moon. Did not God Himself just overlook in the past the times of man's
ignorance?
Acts 17:30
"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring
to men that all everywhere should repent
It is up to
the person concerned if he opts to stay ignorant.
Passover is on
the nighttime after sunset on the 14th; by then, the 15th has already began,
sunset to sunset reckoning.
Samie
Why did Jesus eat Passover a
day ahead of the Jews?
Kevin:
But Jesus did
not eat the Passover a day a head of the Jews.
Samie:
He did, and He
was arrested that same night, crucified the daytime that came, which was
preparation day of Passover of the Jews.
Luke 22:8 And
he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat. 9 And they
said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare? 10 And he said unto them, Behold, when
ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water;
follow him into the house where he entereth in. 11 And ye shall say unto the goodman
of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
Mark 14:16 And
his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto
them: and they made ready the passover. 17 And in the evening he cometh with
the twelve. 18 And as they sat
and did eat,
Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me.
Scriptures say He ate that Passover with His
disciples.
Kevin:
According to
the synoptic gospels Jesus was at a feast the day before the Passover where the
woman washed his feet with the costly ointment. According to John that feast
was 5 days before the Passover. Thus we have a 4 day difference between when
Jesus ate the Passover and when the
This
correlates to the fact that different Jewish sub
groups could not agree
and the night that Jesus ate the Passover would agree with the Essene Passover.
Modern
Christian Tradition has placed the Last Supper on Thursday night, then has the
time of prayer in the garden, the arrest, different inquiries and trials before
the Sanhedrin, the different trials before Pilate and being sent to Herod and
the abuse by the Roman soldiers and have him on the cross by 9:00 Friday
morning is a lot of activity in a very short period of time.
But early
Christian tradition had the last supper Tuesday night with his arrest very late
that evening, an inquiry, the required day in jail before the trials, Thursday
all day and into the evening the different trials and on the cross 9:00 Friday
morning.
Modern
archaeology is agreeing with the early tradition as we have learned more about
the Essenes, the Essene Passover, which would have been the Tuesday night while
the
Gerhard:
What logic is
this, a <fact> of disagreement
<correlated ... with> the SUPPOSED <<Essene Passover … would agree ... the night that Jesus ate the Passover>>
---was what?!
KevinH, Samie
says the same thing!
Both of you
are against the Scriptures.
There is
0-zero-nothing of what you allege, anywhere or anyhow to be seen in the
Gospels!
Kevin:
They ate in a
part of the city where there were Essene neighborhoods. they followed a man
carrying water. The most common carrier of water was women. Then came donkeys,
it was very rare to see a man carry water unless he was an Essene. Non Essene
Rabbis would sometimes rent an upper room in the Essene monasteries and have a
special celebration, celebrating the Holyday with special teachings for his
disciples on the Essene's celebration of the Holyday if they were not able for
some reason or another to do it on the
Samie:
Chances are, the sighting came
a day late, but full moon occurrence can NEVER be delayed, regardless of when
the young crescent was first seen in the western horizon of
Gerhard:
You’re right,
<<<Jesus did not eat the
Passover a day a head of the Jews.>>>
Yet you’re
wrong, <<<Jesus was at a feast …
According to John that feast was 5 days before the Passover.>>>
No; according
to John 12:1,12, it was an ordinary day—an ordinary Day Seventh Day Sabbath of
the week all things considered.
All things
considered it was <Jesus’ arrival at
FALSE:
<<<John
12:1,2—6 days before the Passover>>>
The truth:
<John
12:1,2> states <6 days before>
“the DAYS”—the “DAYS” of unleavened bread.
John 12:12,
“the next day”, therefore, was five days before the “DAYS” of unleavened bread.
FALSE:
<<<John
12:1,2—6 days before the Passover John 19:14>>>
The truth:
The day of
<<Passover (in) John 19:14>>
was the day that Jesus was betrayed, delivered over and crucified and DIED
on—the day “BEFORE THE FEAST” John 13:1—“the first day (of passover) they
KILLED the passover on” Mark 14:12 Luke 22:7 Matthew 26:17.
<<John 12:1,2>> therefore was NOT
six days before <<John 19:14>>;
it was six days before “that day great day sabbath … the Preparation” in
John 19:31 “which is the Fore-Sabbath” Mark 15:42, the day on which the
Jews would have eaten the passover cf. John 18:28; “the first night” of
unleavened bread John 19:39.
<<Passover (in) John 19:14>> WAS NOT
the “Days” of unleavened bread, “NOT on the Feast”, yet. It still was “the
Preparation Day OF Passover (Feast)”.
Exodus
12:3,6a, “on tenth day of the First Month take out and keep a lamb”.
Exodus 12:6b
Leviticus 23:5 Joshua 5:10, “on the fourteenth day KILL it mid-afternoon”
Exodus
12:8,18a “on the fourteenth day in that night EAT the flesh with unleavened
bread” – CHANGED to “the day after” Joshua 5:11, “the day BROUGHT OUT” : “EAT
on the FIFTEENTH day” Leviticus 23:6 Exodus 12:18b,46,51 Numbers 28:17; 33:3.
No word in Old
or New Testament of “the tenth day” or the day before it being a
<<feast>>.
That the ninth
day of the First Month happened to be a Sabbath Day was incidental; but that
“the tenth day” happened to be on the First Day of the week was according to
the Exodus Scriptures about the passover having been fulfilled through Jesus
“Our Passover” and “Lamb of God”.
Jesus did NOT
<<eat Passover a day ahead of the Jews>>. Where do you get that
idea from?
The ONLY
'eating' [Declarative / Indicative Mood] of the passover Jesus in the night of
the fourteenth its NIGHT- and FIRST halve of day, DID, was to SUFFER in
“SOUL-unto-death-anguish”, and BE the Passover Lamb of God …
… while Jesus’ disciples, actually DID eat; but
they ate the NEW Lord’s Supper of BREAD and wine, NO unleavened bread and NO
flesh of passover sacrifice at all …
… which was
exactly the opposite of the exodus-passover when
The fourteenth
day when the lamb was killed mid-afternoon, divided and now ended sunset, when
the fifteenth began and the lamb was eaten in its night.
Thus Jesus did
not <<eat Passover a day ahead of the Jews>>. The Jews would have
eaten the passover on the following night of the fifteenth Abib, which is clear
from comparing John 18:28 with 19:31,38, and had NOTHING TO DO with <<the
sighting>> OR, with <<full moon>>.
Samie
Passover is on the nighttime
after sunset on the 14th; by then, the 15th has already began, sunset to sunset
reckoning.
Gerhard:
There is no
overlapping of days for as long as one minute.
When the sun
has set, the 'old' day is over and the same moment the 'new' day has started.
IN
"it is written "THIS DAY I BROUGHT YOU
OUT"; "They departed on the FIFTEENTH day in the morning after the
passover (was eaten)." THIS IS SAID RETROSPECTIVELY and institutionally.
Because in the
historical passover at the exodus it is said: "In the First Month on the
FOURTEENTH day ye shall EAT unleavened bread ... they shall eat unleavened
bread in that night (of) ... the FOURTEENTH day" Exodus 12:17,18; 8,6.
“The Whole Day the LORD did BRING the children of Israel OUT.”
New Moon was Celebrated
During Daylight.
Combining
Jewish and Roman time concepts, it means that if equinox occurs, say, between
Monday night after sunset and Tuesday at sunset, equinox would have occurred on
the ‘Third Day of the Week’ in terms of the Bible nomenclature for the days of
the week. If the moon got ‘new’ during daytime it would not be visible to the naked
eye before sunset.
The Day of New
Moon always started with the night whether the new moon could be observed or
not. The Hebrew word for ‘New Moon’, chodesh, is also the word for ‘month’.
Whether every 30th day afterwards was the first day of the next month, or
whether every following new moon indicated the first of every consecutive month
is uncertain. Whether as the first day of every month or as any day during the
second month and the rest, the New Moons were celebrated as a religious
significant day. See Psalm 81.
The “ancient
Jewish tradition” to celebrate New Moon during night is not the Old Testament
way of observing New Moon. The First Samuel 20 anecdote clearly contradicts
Jewish custom.
When the story
of David and Jonathan is read, it becomes clear that New Moon was celebrated
during daylight of the actual day of new moon. (This implies a reckoning of day
from sunset to sunset.) “David said to Jonathan, Behold, tomorrow (machar,
“tomorrow by the time the sun be hot”, 11:9 is the new moon (chodesh) and I
should not fail to sit with the king at meat.” 5 (This clearly proves an
astrometric calculation of new moon, and contradicts the notion of the first
visibility of new moon to indicate 1st Nisan.)
See also 12,
18. “And when the new moon (chodesh) was come, the king sat upon his seat as at
other occasions (of New Moon) … (verse 24) Saul spake nothing that day (yom)”.
26 “And the next morning (mochorath, proper “morning”), the second (sheni,
“second (morning)”) of the month (chodesh), it so happened that David’s place
was empty”. 27 “Wherefore cometh not the son of Jesse to meat, neither
yesterday (temol shilshon) nor today (hay yom)?”
Also Psalm 81
suggests a daytime festivity “in the time appointed (the day of ‘New Moon’) on
our solemn feast day. (Yom – which may stand for daylight as in “day and
night”, Ps.88:1.) The New Moon “He ordained in Joseph” as a festival of
deliverance from hard daylight labour. “I removed his shoulder from the burden:
his hands were delivered from the pots”. Instead of labour the command comes,
“Take a
psalm, bring hither the timbrel”. The absence of
the mention of torches is conspicuous. Detail suggests a daytime festivity of
the least resemblance with the idolatrous new moon feasts
of night of
the heathen.
According to
Isaiah 66:23 celebration of the New Moon received the same approach as
celebration of the
Sabbath which had its congregational worship
during daytime. And according to this Scripture the New Moon was kept “from new
moon to new moon”, obviously without any “postponements” to the day after new
moon.
Gregory:
My response is
to be considered a general one that is not made in response to any one person.
It may also apply in part to another thread in this section. It will be
simplistic and not comprehensive. There is more that may be said. This issue is
actually more complex than has been acknowledged by some here.
I am surprised
by the lack of reference to material that is available in the Internet on this
subject. Much is helpful.
Here are some general comments of mine:
1) The
foundational issue as to Easter dates back to the split between the Orthodox
Church and the Roman Church. The basic answer lies in that history.
2) In the time
of Christ, the Jewish people had a civil calendar and a calendar for religious
festivals. One should not calculate a festival by the civil calendar.
Gerhard:
It does not
exist nor is it hinted at in the New Testament.
Gregory:
If you are
telling us that in the time of Christ the Jewish people did not have a civil
calendar which differed from the religious (festival) calendar, you are simply
demonstrating your basic lack of knowledge of the situation in the time of
Christ.
If you are
telling us that the New Testament does not
hint at such, you reveal
a basic lack of knowledge of the New Testament. The NT has the purpose of
revealing the activity of God in human life. The NT is not here to tell us
every aspect of civil life and government. In the time of Christ,
The following
is a partial answer. I will let you find more on the Internet as this is just
simple basic stuff.
Quote:
When
Krause:
Exactly Ron,
and not only that, as has benn said on a number of occasions, Passover starts
on the eve of Nisan 14, doesn't have anything to do with a full, half, new,
old, green, red, etc., Moon!! Again a great post Ron.
Gerhard:
Jesus' last
passover perfectly agrees in every detail with the Exodus record and rest of
the Scriptures.
Not one hitch whatsoever.
<<Simple
basic stuff>> to me, would be simple, basic, Scripture.
In all the
above, you gave me no, <simple, basic> SCRIPTURE.
Thanks but no
thanks.
I just feel
that I must ask you, if you are a Seventh-day
Adventist?
Because I have
never in my life seen a Seventh-day Adventist 'argue' like you, or, use the
<stuff> you use.
Gregory:
3) Some
calculated some festivals by a lunar calendar and others by a lunar-solar
calendar.
4) In the time
of Christ festival dates were calculated differently by two different sects of
the Jews. Thus festival were sometimes celebrated on two different dates.
5) In the time
of Christ, Lunar dates were observational. It is wrong to calculate back by
astronomical calculations when such were not used in the time of Christ. A
calculated date may differ from an observational date.
Folks, this is
just a brief summation of some, not all, of the issues.
The issue is
more complex than has been acknowledged here in this thread.
Samie
But using full moon occurrences
which we can easily trace forward or backward in time via existing technology,
it is possible to determine the day of Passover 2 millennia ago, because
Passover is a full moon feast.
Ron:
Where does it
say in Scripture that the Passover is a "full moon feast"? It
doesn't.
You have only
posted Psalm 81:3 where it says, "Blow the trumpet at the new
moon, At the full moon, on our feast day." But that doesn't say that
Passover is a full-moon feast. It simply says to blow the trumpet at the new
moon, at the full moon, and on our feast day. It isn't necessarily saying that
a new moon is equivalent to a full moon or that a full moon is
equivalent to a feast day.
The next verse says,
"For it is a statute for
There is no
statute in Torah about blowing trumpets at full moon. However, there is a
statute about blowing the trumpet to convene an assembly (Num 10:8) Because
Passover and Tabernacles both occur shortly after the astronomical full moon,
it is quite possible that the trumpets were blown at full moon to call the
people to assemble at Jerusalem to prepare for Passover and Tabernacles.
It is likely
that the Hebrew word used for "full moon" in Psalms 81:3 probably
does not refer to the moon only on the night closest to the astronomical new
moon. It probably could be used to refer to the moon during a period of several
days when the moon is brightest. When translating Psalm 81 into Greek for the
Septuagint a couple centuries before Jesus lived, the Jewish scholars
translated that Hebrew word as eusemo
hemera meaning "clear
day", so in the Greek Scriptures the verse doesn't refer to the full moon
at all.
There is no
evidence in Scripture that Passover is supposed to occur at the astronomical
full moon. I have seen no evidence from historical documents that Passover
occurred at the astronomical full moon.
Samie, if you
want to reconstruct an ancient calendar in order to determine when God's feast
of Passover occurred almost 2000 years ago, that could be a good goal if you
did it accurately. But your method does not seem to be interested in what the
ancient people actually did. Instead you are imposing what is convenient for
you (using software that calculates full moons) to construct a calendar that
was never used in
You are using
calendar methods that were not used in
Since the
phases of the moon can be predicted pretty accurately, we can, with modern
technology and computation, go backward or forward to find out the phases of
the moon at any given month of any year.
So going back
to the year AD 31, we get from reliable sources that the astronomical new moon
in April occurred on the 10th of April at 11:32 a.m. The lunar Sabbatarians
agree to this. Here is what they say:
The year was
A.D. 31 and the first month of that year was April. Since N.A.S.A identifies
the Gregorian 10th day to be the conjunction, all we must do is add a day to
arrive at the first visible crescent as viewed in the night sky following
sunset on the 11th of April. The following day April 12 is then New Moon day,
which is also the first day of the lunisolar month of Abib/Nissan. Since we
know from Scripture that Christ Yahushua died on the 14th of the lunisolar
month of Abib/Nissan, then we simply count to 14 and, therefore, arrive at
Wednesday April 25, A.D. 31, as the day of Christ Yahushua’s crucifixion.”
(Kerrie L. French, The New Moon, When is it?; [cut]
Yes, the new
moon in the first Jewish month was April 10th, but that is the new moon in
conjunction. The biblical new moon, as they also say, is the crescent new moon.
The lunar Sabbatarians have just added one day extra to arrive at the first
visible crescent to be viewed in the night sky of April 11th.
Only the
astronomical new moon can be found through
calculations, not the
crescent new moon. Does the crescent moon always appear in one day’s time? No!
Read what The
United States Naval Observatory has to say about the crescent moon:
Although the
date and time of each New Moon can be computed exactly (see, for example,
Phases of the Moon in Data Services), the visibility of the lunar crescent as a
function of the Moon’s “age” - the time counted from New Moon - depends upon
many factors and cannot be predicted with certainty. In the first two days
after New Moon, the young crescent Moon appears very low in the western sky
after sunset, and must be viewed through bright twilight. It sets shortly after
sunset.” (The United States Naval Observatory, Crescent Moon Visibility; [cut]
Again, The
United States Naval Observatory says:
The sighting of the lunar crescent within one
day of New Moon is usually difficult. The crescent at this time is quite thin,
has a low surface brightness, and can easily be lost in the twilight.
Generally, the lunar crescent will become visible to suitably-located,
experienced observers with good sky conditions about one day after New Moon.
However, the time that the crescent actually becomes visible varies quite a bit
from one month to another. (Ibid.)
The United
States Naval Observatory says that “the sighting of the lunar crescent within
one day of New Moon is usually difficult,” yet the lunar Sabbatarians have
added only one day from the astronomical new moon to the crescent new moon!
The lunar
Sabbatarians also believe that it is not always possible to have a crescent new
moon on a fixed day:
If the
crescent is observed for just a minute or less before full dark and then
disappears, it is considered too young to be a new moon. When this occasionally
occurs, sighting is delayed until the following night. (Author not given,
Crescent Moon Sighting Instructions, [cut]; page acces- sed for original
publication, but no longer available at this website)
The Karaite
Jews say this about the sighting of the crescent moon:
. . . the
ancient Israelites would have been well aware of the Crescent New Moon. In
ancient societies people worked from dawn to dusk and they would have noticed
the Old Moon getting smaller and smaller in the morning sky. When the morning
moon had disappeared the ancient Israelites would have anxiously awaited its
reappearance 1.5-3.5 days later in the evening sky. Having disappeared for
several days and then appearing anew in the early evening sky they would have
called it the “New Moon” or “Hodesh” (from Hadash meaning “New”). (The Karaite
Korner, The New Moon in the Hebrew Bible; [cut]
We are told by
this group of Jews that it takes up to three and half days from the astronomical
moon to the crescent moon! Why does it take between one-and-half to
three-and-half days between the astronomical new moon and the crescent new
moon? That is because the speed of the moon varies due to the shape of its
orbit.
The United
States Naval Observatory says:
The Moon’s
orbit is elliptical, and its speed is greatest when it is near perigee, least
near apogee. If perigee occurs near New Moon, the Moon will appear to be moving
away from the Sun in the sky at a greater than average rate. (The United States
Naval Observatory, Ibid.)
We are not
disputing the fact that the astronomical new moon in April AD 31 occurred on
April 10th. We are questioning the credibility of adding just one day to the
astronomical new moon as the lunar Sabbatarians have stated above should be
done.
We are told by
The United States Naval Observatory that sometimes even two days are too few to
see the crescent new moon. The number of days depends on several factors. The
Karaite Jews tell us that it could take up to three and a half days. There are
no scientific records at all for the crescent moon appearances because there is
no single parameter for its calculation.
However, the
time that the crescent actually becomes visible varies quite a bit from one
month to another. (Ibid.)
How can the lunar Sabbatarians conclude, as if
it were a scientific fact that the crescent new moon in April AD 31 was on the
twelfth? They have only added around one-and-half days to the astronomical
moon, but we are told it can take any time between 1.5-3.5 days.
We are equally
justified to add 3.5 days to the astronomical new moon and arrive at the
fourteenth of April as the crescent new moon!
The Jewish
month starts from the crescent new moon; the 14th day is the Passover.
In the
fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD’S Passover.” (Leviticus
23:5)
The fourteenth
day from April 14 is April 27, and it is Friday in the Gregorian calendar!
The lunar
Sabbatarians may say that when Jesus died, it was the full moon because
fourteen days after the crescent new moon comes the full moon, and The United
States Naval Observatory records that April 25 in AD 31 was the full moon, not
April 27. But let us not forget that the ancient Israelites did not have the
advance of scientific knowledge that we have today. They were not going by
astronomical new moons and astronomical full moons. They were going by the new
moon and full moon visible to the naked eye, and the lunar Sabbatarians agree
to this.
Ellen White
also wrote that it was a full moon the day Jesus died:
In company
with His disciples, the Saviour slowly made His way to the
Since it was
not an astronomical new moon, it also was not an astronomical full moon. Is it
possible to see the moon as broad and full for more than a single night? Try it
out. You can never know the difference the day before the astronomical full
moon, the day of the astronomical full moon, and the day after the astronomical
full moon.
Here is a
quote from the best of places:
Although Full
Moon occurs each month at a specific date and time, the Moon’s disk may appear
to be full for several nights in a row if it is clear. This is because the
percentage of the Moon’s disk that appears illuminated changes very slowly
around the time of Full Moon . . . The Moon may appear 100% illuminated only on
the night closest to the time of exact Full Moon, but on the night before and
night after will appear 97–99% illuminated; most people would not notice the
difference. Even two days from Full Moon the Moon’s disk is 93–97% illuminated.
(The United States Naval Observatory, The Royal Gazetteonline, Moon Phases; [cut]
The prophet of
the Lord was right calling it a sixth-day-of-the-week Friday crucifixion in AD
31. So we have proved that it is possible to have an AD 31 crucifixion that
falls on a Friday even in the Gregorian calendar!
Gerhard:
State the same
thing with SCRIPTURE ONLY!
Until you do, you have <<proved>> NOTHING!
Krause:
Great post
Gregory, I'm in agreement.
Ron:
Interesting
info,
The Israeli
New Moon Society has software they are
developing to assist in
determining new moon visibility. I don't know if it can be used for historical
dates. [cut]
Some months
the sighting of the new moon can be delayed or prevented by clouds or
smoke/smog in the western sky. Also, when using a calendar system that allows a
maximum of 30 days in a month when weather conditions prevent sighting the new
moon, the date of previous moon sightings or non-sightings can affect the date
at which subsequent months begin.
In the story
of Noah's flood in Genesis it tells us that five months contained 150 days.
Although it is possible that before the flood the lunar cycle was exactly 30
days long, it is also possible that Noah was unable to see the new moons due to
overcast skies. In such a situation, the Karaite Jews would have thirty-day
months until it became possible to sight the new moon. Each consecutive month
where the new moon is not sighted can cause the month to become about a
half-day further out of sync with the new moon, if it were visible. Later when
conditions allow a new-moon sighting, the month that is ending would be shorter
than normal months.
Such a
calendar system seems odd or bizarre to those of us who live in a business
world that runs on Pope Gregory's calendar where we can plan ahead and predict
the dates and holidays months and years ahead of time. I'm not convinced that
God wanted people to be able to plan the future with the certainty that the
Gregorian calendar system seems to allow. Genesis tells us that God put the Sun
and Moon in place to regulate days, years, and his appointed times. Such an
unpredictable calendar system is very compatible with what James wrote:
Come now, you who say,
"Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year
there and engage in business and make a profit." Yet you do not know what
your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little
while and then vanishes away. Instead, you ought to say, "If the Lord
wills, we will live and also do this or that." But as it is, you boast in
your arrogance; all such boasting is evil. (James
4:13-16)
Krause
Exactly Ron. It matters not if
the Moon is "full" "blue" "new" "green"
red, etc. Passover starts on Nisan 14, the lamb is eaten after sundown on the
14th, which would make the 15th Nisan the first day of Passover. Its to bad
that Samie doesn't confirm with his local Jewish Rabbis to find out the real
times and not just some theory that he holds as gospel!!!!!
Gregory:
Pkause, the
date for Passover has everything to do with a "full moon." Nisan 14
was determined by a lunar calendar, under one system of celebrating the Jewish
festivals.
From
Wikepedia:
Of the disputes about the date
when the Christian Pascha should be celebrated, disputes known as
Paschal/Easter controversies, the Quartodeciman is the first recorded. In the
mid–second century, the practice in the Roman province of Asia was for the
pre-Paschal fast to end and the feast to be held on the 14th day (the full
moon) of the Jewish lunar month of Nisan,. .
Samie:
Good point.
This means you believe as I do that Scriptures indicate Passover is a full moon
feast as God Himself instructed the Israelites.
Gregory:
As a lunar
calendar celebration, the actual date depended not on an astronomical
calculation backwards from today, but from an observational calculation made on
the spot at that time.
Samie:
Your statement
is CORRECT as far as the Jewish national celebration of Passover is concerned.
But why do you think Jesus ate Passover a day ahead of the Jews in AD 31?
Gregory:
My response
should not be construed as either agreement, or disagreement, with your posts,
or the above statement.
Samie:
It appears you
are not yet addressing the question I asked.
Gregory:
It took you
until now to realize that! Astounding!
Samie:
I realized
that the very first time I gave you the chance to answer and you did not.
Gregory:
I have not
addressed several of the fundamental questions that have been raised here.
Those questions were not mine.
Samie:
Yeah, they
were mine.
Gregory:
I have
narrowed my focus to an issue that affects the discussion regardless of the
position one takes on the fundamental question.
No, I have not
responded to certain questions raised here and I do not intend to respond to
them.
Samie:
One shouldn't,
especially if his position on the issue is shown to be Biblically unfounded.
Gregory:
People on both
sides of those questions have failed in their understanding of the calendars
used in the time of Christ and that is the issue that I address.
But, are you
considering this: The Jewish festivals began at sundown on one day and ended at
sundown on the next day. IOW, the Passover extended over two calendar days
which began and ended at midnight.
I expected you
would raise the issue of forgiving sins and you have a valid point which does
not negate my major thesis.
As to reading
minds, a statement that Christ knew what they were thinking does not gift him
with the power to read minds. I do not have that power to read minds and I
often know what people are thinking. If you are married, you wife often knows
what you are thinking before you speak. Yet, she cannot read minds.
The
fundamental issue of salvation is: Could Christ live the life of a human
without sinning. People differ as to whether Christ had to live the life of
Adam or of someone in the time in which Christ lived. I have not addressed that
specific issue.
If you do not
understand the basic issue of Christ living a human life in order to save us,
you simply do not understand salvation and what it cost God.
Samie:
So? What do
you want me to address? Full moon occurrences in AD 31 can be easily mapped
into the corresponding Gregorian calendar date we now have.
Jesus came to fulfill the law which obviously
includes the law on when Passover is to be eaten. He, through Whom God made the
worlds, including the moon, can NEVER lose track of when full moon would occur
that paschal week. Therefore, the Savior ate Passover on the night the moon was
full.
Here is one
who says he understands salvation and yet cannot accept what Scriptures say
that Christ has both the power to forgive sins and read minds which the good
pastor says Christ does not have because "In order to provide for our
salvation, Christ gave up his powers as a member of the Godhead."
This
"issue of Christ living a human life in order to save us" is
off-topic in this thread, and it appears this is being brought up to veer
attention away from the main issue for which the pastor's position is shown to
be not in accord with what Scriptures say. The pastor says Christ did not have
the powers Scriptures say Christ had, because if the pastor admits He had those
powers then Christ knew when full moon occurred that paschal week.
The good
pastor says "Christ observed the Jewish festival days on the same terms as
did the other Jews in his day" yet Scriptures tell us Christ did not eat
Passover in synch with the Jews.
Ron:
I think we
need to clarify the definition of the term "Jews". Today that word is
used to describe the whole group of people descended from the twelve tribes of
Jacob. But the word "Jew" is not always used that way in the Bible.
The word "Jew" refers to those from the tribe of
Jesus was from
the tribe of
However, Jesus
was called a "Galilean". There were some significant differences
between the practices of the Judeans and the Galileans. My wife read a book by
a Jewish scholar that described notable religious differences between the
Galileans and the Judeans of Jesus' day. I don't remember what the differences
were, but it is clear from verses like these that there were differences:
"After these things
Jesus was walking in Galilee, for He was unwilling to walk in
According to
the New Testament Jesus was in Galilee shortly before going up to
publicly with
the Judeans the next day.
Samie:
The good
pastor's position appears to be NOT in synch with what Scriptures say.
Gregory:
O.K. you are
telling us that Jesus would have had the supernatural knowledge to know the
astronomical date of the full moon. You are also telling us that Jesus would
have been required to have celebrated the Passover on that date regardless of
the date that the Jewish people in
Samie:
Are you saying
the Lord Jesus Christ did NOT have then "the supernatural knowledge to
know the astronomical date of the full moon"? He Who can read minds,
resurrect the dead, walk on water, command the storm to keep calm, command a
fish to look for a stater coin, keep it in its mouth and bite Peter's hook, did
not then know when full moon would occur? Now, isn't your position becoming
INCONCEIVABLE, Pastor?
Gregory:
Yes. In order
to provide for our salvation, Christ gave up his powers as a member of the
Godhead.
Samie:
Scriptures say
He still had then the power to forgive sins, a power that is the sole
prerogative of God:
KJV Matthew
9:6 But that
ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive
sins, (then saith he to the sick of the
palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
Gregory:
He took on the
life of the humans whom he came to save. In that life he had not inate power to
read the minds of the people with whom he came in contact.
Samie:
He can read
minds, Scriptures say:
NIV Luke 5:22 Jesus knew what they were thinking and
asked, "Why are you thinking these things in your hearts?
Gregory:
In that life
he did not have the supernatural power to know that astronomical date.
Samie:
On the
contrary, Scriptures tell us a different story than yours.
Gregory:
In living that
life, Christ observed the Jewish festival days on the same terms as did the
other Jews in his day.
Samie:
Not quite,
Scriptures tell us He ate Passover ahead by a day than did the Jews.
Gregory:
If Christ had
maintained any of those powers he could have been charged with a failure to
overcome sin on the same basis as us. He would have failed in our salvation.
Samie:
Scriptures
indicate He still had those powers and also SUCCEEDED in saving us all from
sin.
Gregory:
Remember, in
the time of Christ, the Jewish leaders did not have the ability to calculate
the astronomical date of the full moon. They determined that date by
observational means. IOW. One went out at the accepted time, looked up into the
sky and said: The moon is full tonight.
However, if
the sky was cloudy, the one who went out to look up into the sky said: I do not
see any moon tonight. I will look again tomorrow to see if I can see a full
moon.
NOTE: There is
some reason to believe that in the time of Christ the Passover was celebrated
on two different dates which were held to be the correct date of two different
sects of Judisiam
Samie:
Perhaps. But
what is SURE is the fact that our Savior Who came to fulfill the law, ate Passover
on a full moon night as required by the law.
Ron:
Samie, I agree
that Jesus fulfilled the Law. However, I have read the Law many times and have
never seen where it says that Passover occurs at the astronomically calculated
full moon, nor where it says one is required to eat Passover at the
astronomical full moon. Where do you read about this full moon requirement in
the Law?
Samie:
Specific
instructions for Passover:
KJV Numbers 9: 1 And the LORD spake unto Moses in the
wilderness of Sinai, in the first month of the second year after they were come
out of the
2 Let the children of
That full moon
night was the night after sunset of March 27, 31 AD, Tuesday.
Do you think
the date I proposed is wrong? Why?
Do you think
the nighttime after sunset of April 26, 31 AD, is a better choice? Why?
Scriptures
tell us that God appointed the moon to determine seasons:
KJV Psalm
104:19 He appointed the moon
for seasons: the sun knoweth his going down.
Scriptures
specify a full moon feast instituted in
Psalm 81:
4 Blow the trumpet at the new moon, at the full moon, on our solemn
feast. 5 For this is a law in Israel, an
edict of the God of Jacob, 6 Who
made it a decree for Joseph when he came out of the land of Egypt.
The above
verses tell us this full moon feast is a law in
Exodus 12:11
... it is the LORD'S passover. 12 For I will pass through the land of
Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both
man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am
the LORD. 13 And the blood shall
be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I
will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I
smite the
Clearly, the
law specifies that the appointed season for
Passover as determined by
the moon is the FULL MOON.
Gregory:
Those are not
my issues. I have not addressed them. I do not intend to address them.
There is a lot
of material available on the Internet on this issue. One can go to the Internet
and get more on this question than has been given in this thread. Why would I
want to say anything on this when it is freely available to anyone who wants to
read it.
Samie:
So, how would
they know if it was already the 10th of Nisan when they were supposed to take a
kid from the flock and keep it until the 14th, kill it in the evening, roast
and eat the flesh with unleavened bread and bitter herbs that full moon night?
Gregory:
Again. They
operated on an observational calendar. They were not concerned with the
astronomical calculation. When the Rabbi said the phase of the moon had been
observed, that was accepted as fact. That is how they knew.
NOTE: The
above is written in the context that there was not complete agreement on the
above and as a result there was more than one calendar that was used.
Samie:
For this
layman, Jesus ate Passover on Tuesday evening, March 27, 31 AD. Was crucified
Wednesday, March 28, 31 AD. 3 days and 3 nights later as He Himself specified
in Mt 12:40 rose from the grave early Saturday morning, March 31, 31 AD. The
early Saturday morning resurrection of the Savior is EXPLICITLY stated in the
Greek phrase "proi prote sabbatou" (Mark 16:9). Sadly, in order to
perhaps give a semblance of Scriptural authority to Sunday-keeping, the
genitive "sabbatou" was so translated to instead refer to
"week" by translators who were themselves Sunday-keepers.
April 27, 31 AD, Friday, is proposed by others
as the date when Christ was crucified. It follows that Jesus would have been
arrested Thursday night, April 26, 31 AD. Since He ate Passover the same night
He was arrested, Jesus would have then eaten Passover Thursday night, April 26,
31 AD, a NON-Full Moon night, and the Savior would have then violated the law
He said He came to fulfill.
Gregory:
The citation
above is only a partial answer. It does not address that Nisan 14 vs. Nisan 15
issue. There are other issues it does not address. But, it is clear, that as a
lunar calendar celebration, as was celebrated by some Jews in the time of
Christ, the full moon has much to do with a calculation of the actual date.
Samie:
The Jews
celebrated Passover a day late most probably because the crescent sighting came
a day late, thus, the calendar of the Jews was then faulty, heing NOT in synch
with the full moon.
Krause:
Maybe my
meaning didn't come across correctly! The reason I said it the way I said it,
was because, the date doesn't change. Passover always starts on the evening of
14 Nisan, which is really 15th Nisan, first day of Passover per my family.
Which is besides the point that the date of the 14th is important not the full
moon. I say that because from the chart that samie supplied in one of his
posts, it shows the full moon being on the 14th, 15th, or 17th and one date was
almost a month off. If I were to ask my family what the full moon has to do
with it, guess what? They'll tell me it doesn't have anything to do with it,
the date is what is important.
Gerhard:
Passover
starts on Nisan 14 the day the sacrifice is killed—
Correct— right
through ALL Scripture.
The lamb was
eaten after sundown on the 14th at the the first and only exodus-passover
---ONLY in Exodus, chapters 12 and 13.
In ALL
Scriptures afterwards, passover was EATEN on the 15th Nisan the first day of
“SEVEN days ye must eat unleavened bread”, the “feast” and “sabbath” and “great
day” of Passover.
‘MOED’,
Psalm 104:19,
“The sun knoweth its time / season.”
The whole Psalm is about <educating> the people of God to <think> about the “SEASONS” of all the
creation of God. “TALK YE OF [<<educate
those>> in] ALL HIS WORKS.”
Teach them as
follows:
“He appointed the MOON
[MONTHS] for SEASONS [YEARS]; the sun knoweth its (time / season to) RETREAT
[autumn] … Thou RENEWEST [spring] the face of the earth.”
Genesis 1:14,
The sun and moon and stars were created to “rule
the SEASONS”.
Exodus 13:10,
“The ordinance to eat the the passover”, was
that it must be eaten “in his SEASON”.
Exodus 34:18 Numbers 9:2,
“in the TIME / SEASON of the month of Abib”.
Leviticus 23:4,
“PROCLAIM IN THEIR SEASON”
Leviticus 23:4,37
Numbers 9:3
“APPOINTED SEASON”
Numbers 28:2,
“Observe to offer unto Me in DUE / PROPER
SEASON”.
The “DUE
season” for passover was, as you described, the SEASON WHEN <<the barley was in the ear [abib]>>.
“In DUE SEASON
we shall REAP” Galatians 6:9.
‘CHODESH’,
Exodus 9:31,
“In the time appointed of the MONTH of Abib,
(MONTH of EARS / barley EARS.”
‘Moed’, “season” and ‘chodesh’, “month” are synonymous:
Exodus 13:4,
“This day came ye out in the MONTH Abib”
Deuteronomy 16:6,
“At the SEASON that thou camest forth out.”
“In the TIME of the MONTH Abib” 23:15; 34:18.
Springtime was rain-season,
‘ETH’,
Leviticus 26:4, “rain in DUE-SEASON” /
“natural-season”.
‘YAMIM’,
Ezekiel 34:26, “rain shower in his SEASON”
Jeremiah 5:24, “former and latter rain in his
SEASON”
Psalm 104:27,
“meat in DUE-SEASON”.
‘DABAR’,
Nehemiah 11:23,
“DUE / EVERY / REGULAR (SEASON)”,
Numbers 14:20, “the TIME / SEASON/ DAYS of the
firstripe grapes”.
Hosea 2:9, “DUE
season” of the late year was the “wine-
season”,
SEASON of Yom Kippur Leviticus 23:23-44.
Re:
<<<The Books of Moses do not use a word that
refers to the season of Spring. The word used is "Abib", which does
not mean Spring at all, but rather it refers to the soft green grain heads of
barley.>>>
In Leviticus
2:14 ‘abib’ occurs the ONLY time explicitly defined as “firstfruits of corn /
barley”. The KJV, “green ears of corn” is glaringly obvious, erroneous because
it is in every respect CONTRADICTED BY THE CONTEXT.
“Thou shalt
offer for the meat offering of thy firstfruits, “ABIB = corn DRIED by fire /
roasted BEATEN OUT OF FULL EAR.”
Now corn or
barley is “beaten out” on the “threshing floor” out of the shells for the RIPE
AND DRY and usually yellowish brownish seeds.
At passover
the first sheaf of ears on their stalks was cut or reaped from the “corners of
your land” as the firstfruits of the ripe and dry and READY, harvest.
Harvesting proceeded from the day after the first sheaf was “waved before the
LORD” and was finished in seven weeks or forty nine days.
Oil was put on the threshed corn or barley and
frankincense was laid on it and then it was burned an offering made by fire
unto the LORD.
Green barley
would never do!
So the word
‘abib’ is this once incorrectly translated ‘green’ over against the one time
for “barley” as such in Exodus 9:31, but six time times for the First Month of
the year as such.
I would
conclude from the available data all put together, that the plant, ‘barley’ –
‘abib’ got its name from the month of Abib, rather than the month ‘Abib’, its
name from the plant or part of the plant, the “ears of barley”.
Gregory:
If I recall
correctly, you are not a member of the
Yes, as most
people reading this forum know, I am SDA Clergy, alternately credentialed on
the level of the General Conference and/or the North American Division.
The fact that
you suggest that you have never seen SDAs make the arguments that I have made
indicates that you have minimal knowledge of SDA beliefs and practices.
My expectation
is: People who raise the issues that you raise should have the scholarly
interest in learning the basics. You do not reflect that level of
knowledge--you do not reflect a very basic level of knowledge.
The issues are
complex. They divided the Christian church which led to the split off of the
Orthodox from the Roman group. Some of the answers lie in a knowledge of that
history.
There is more.
You could learn it if you wished. It seems to me that you do not wish to do so.
So, you come and argue. O.K. That is where you are.
A basis issue
is: If you are going to want to debate an issue based upon the Jewish festival
calendar at the time of Christ, you must know something about the Jewish
festival calendar at that time.
End of
discussion, or probably the beginning of a fruitful discussion.
Gerhard:
I have no
desire or interest <<<to debate
an issue based upon the Jewish festival calendar>>> or, to
<<<know something about the
Jewish festival calendar>>> at any time in history.
ALL I am
interested in and desire to know about, is what the SCRIPTURES : the Old and
New Testaments, have to say and teach about the “Passover-Suffering” of “the
Lamb of God”, “Our Passover” ---BEING THE WORD OF GOD AND NOT OF MEN
(tradition) OR OF JEWS (legalism) OR OF CATHOLICISM (anti-Christ).
I am afraid
there is no hope for mutual <<fruitful
discussion>>. Again you have replied with anything but Scripture
about things you correctly have observed I know nothing about. So there
obviously is no possibility for BIBLE-discussion with you from my side.
Nevertheless,
I sincerely want to thank you that this short debate has helped me to learn a
great deal more from the Scriptures through the Scriptures about the
Scriptures. Without your disparagements it would have been a really fruitless
discussion for me.
So thanks, and
try keep it up if you can.
Samie:
For those who
are NOT aware that lunisolar calendars have full moon on the evening of the
14th of the month, full moon is not an issue in the keeping of Passover.
Gerhard:
Back to the
Scriptures .....
Jesus "ate the passover" through
SUFFERING.
Not through eating the bread on the table or
drinking the wine which "He GAVE" to his disciples to eat and
explained,
"This is my blood ... this is my
flesh" meaning this is MY SUFFERING.
Jesus'
"Suffering-Passover-of-Yahweh", "in That Night", was a
suffering as "with fire roasted" Exodus 12:8.
Jesus’ pascha
was a burning “fire in my bones" Psalm 31:10,11; 102:3,4 Jeremiah 20:9
Lamentations 1:13 Ezekiel 24:5.
“My bones are
burned with heat” of SUFFERING, Job 30:30
Jesus’
“NIGHT-of-Suffering”—his “Night-of-pascha”—was “That Night—the fourteenth day
of the First Month”.
“That Night … about midnight there was a great
cry throughout all the land … and the plague shall destroy.”
“By this
Whole-Day-Bone-Day I have brought your armies out of the
“Strike the
lintels and the two side-posts [the ENTRANCE to the Pascha-Suffering of the Lamb]
with the blood.”
“AT MIDNIGHT
THE LORD SMOTE … THE FIRSTBORN … the Whole-Night-Bone-Night, night to be
solemnly observed … THIS IS THAT NIGHT …the ordinance of the passover … it came
to pass the Whole-Day-Bone-Day.” Exodus 12.
IN EGYPT
Israel ATE passover on the fourteenth day of the First Month.
Christ in
But on “THIS
DAY ye CAME OUT of the land-of-Darkness on the FIFTEENTH day of the First Month
in the night”—
“THIS DAY ye
became the LORD’S People”—
“the fifteenth day of the First Month”,
Which means
that Jesus introduced the Lord’s Supper in
the night of the
fourteenth day and by having BEEN the Passover-Suffering-of-Yahweh, ATE the
passover in “THAT NIGHT” of the fourteenth … WHILE THE JEWS would have eaten
THEIR passover the following night on the fifteenth day of the First Month AS
ORDAINED from that
the
That is what
the Old Testament and the Gospels teach. Neither has anything whatsoever of or
about factions in the time of Jesus which the one observed passover on the
fourteenth and the other on the fifteenth.
Samie
But what is SURE is the fact
that our Savior Who came to fulfill the law, ate Passover on a full moon night
as required by the law.
Ron:
Samie, I agree
that Jesus fulfilled the Law. However, I have read the Law many times and have
never seen where it says that Passover occurs at the astronomically calculated
full moon, nor where it says one is required to eat Passover at the
astronomical full moon. Where do you read about this full moon requirement in
the Law?
Gerhard:
Yours is a
valid question put to Samie.
It was full
moon anytime 14 or 15 days after any new moon 'automatically' or consequently or
consistently or 'naturally' --- anyway! The Bible does not need to say it with
so many words because the Bible IMPLIED it with words JUST AS CLEAR, the words
‘”SEASON”, “MONTH”, and “YE”, shall “PROCLAIM”.
There is
absolutely nothing about Jesus’ last passover which anyone of normal
intelligence cannot deduce for himself from what is WRITTEN.
The whole
debate however, starts from another imagined difficulty in the Scriptures both
Old and New Testaments / Gospels, the indisputable FACT Jesus instituted the
Lord’s Supper in the night-beginning of the fourteenth, and the Jews were
supposed to eat the passover in the night beginning of the
following day
of the fifteenth of the month.
It is assumed
the PASSOVER MEAL was eaten in the Lord’s Supper AND in the Jews’ passover— the
former in the night-beginning of the fourteenh day; the latter in the
night-beginning of the fifteenth day of the month.
The flesh of
the passover sacrifice was eaten IN
…and on the
fifteenth it REMAINED UNTIL JESUS CHRIST BEING THE FIRSTBORN OF GOD KILLED FOR
THE SINS OF ISRAEL, for the first time ever and for the last time ever, again
had his Passover-Suffering of Yahweh on the fourteenth day of the month.
Israel in the
NIGHT OF THE FIFTEENTH would physically have eaten the passover sacrifice as
though they BURIED the body of the Lamb of God; while the true Israel of God in
the persons of Joseph and Nicodemus IN “THAT NIGHT TO BE SOLEMNLY OBSERVED”
(“THE FIRST NIGHT” the Jews would EAT unleavened bread) and the whole day
following, BURIED the body of the Lamb of God in a grave hewn in rock.
Now since
Joseph and Nicodemus could not bury the flesh of Jesus by physically eating it,
they physically BURIED the whole body of Jesus INTACT, “SPOTLESS” AND “WITHOUT
BLEMISH” “GOD” having by oath declared that “HIS FLESH SHALL NOT SEE CORRUPTION
IN DEATH”, until God would raise Him from the dead “PERFECTED” AND “GLORIFIED”
AND “EXALTED AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD IN HEAVENLY MAJESTY AND POWER.”
Both days of
the fourteenth and the fifteenth were necessary, essential and mandatory for
Christ to have fulfilled the Passover-Suffering of Yahweh.
NO—absolutely
NO discrepancy or inconsistencies or whatever at variance with the whole of the
Scriptures existed or has to be explained at the hand of EXTRA-BIBLICAL AND
CONTRA-BIBLICAL information or sources or traditions of man or the Jews or the
world.
IT IS ALL
THERE IN THE BIBLE.
Unfortunately
with every new version of the Bible it is getting increasingly difficult to
recognise the marvellous ONENESS of God’s Word IN THIS MATTER.
Ron Amnsn
The New Testament tells us that
after Jesus' resurrection he appeared to Galileans and that they became his
witnesses. (Acts 13:31)
Gerhard:
It was three
and a halve years after Jesus' Resurrection.
It reminds me of 'translation' of Mark 16:9.
For sure it
happened <<after Jesus' resurrection [that] he appeared to Galileans and
that they became his witnesses>>.
Yes ja sure .... So it was after his
resurrection that He appeared to Mary Magdalene on the First Day of the week.
Yes ja sure
.... So it must be that after his resurrection on the First Day of the week He
appeared to Mary Magdalene ...
OR NOT?
For certain,
NOT! 'translation'? No! :
'transgression' yes!
Gregory:
Again, the
Full Moon was determined on the basis of observation. It was not determined by
astronomical calculations. When the Rabbi said the festival feast is now, it
was.
Also, some
years had 12 months while other years had 13 months according to one calendar
used by the Jews in the time of Christ. The 13 month year had more days than
did the 12 month year which further affected the Passover date.
Some countries
today still use a 13 month year for some
purposes. I once lived in
a country that required employers to pay their employees on a 13 month year.
But in that country the 13 month year had the same number of days as did the 12
month year. In that country I hired a person to work for me. I paid that
person, as required by their law, their monthly wage 13 times a year.
Samie
Scriptures specify a full moon
feast instituted in
Psalm 81:
4 Blow the trumpet at the new moon, at the full moon, on our solemn feast.
5 For this is a law in Israel, an edict of the God of Jacob,
6 Who made it a decree for Joseph when he came out of the land of Egypt.
The above verses tell us this
full moon feast is a law in
Clearly, the law specifies that
the appointed season for Passover as determined by the moon is the FULL MOON
Gerhard:
Psalm 81
"3 Blow the
trumpet in the new moon / moon -'chodesh'- in the appointed time / festival of
the new moon -'keseh'- on our solemn feast -‘chaq’- day -'yom'.
Samie: Quote <<<the new
moon, at the __full__ moon, on our solemn feast.>>>
Samie, which is your Bible? Because it does not seem to me the concept or
the word or words, <<full moon>>
EVEN EXISTS IN THE BIBLE?!
Samie:
Oh sorry for
NOT having specified the Bible version I quoted Psalm 81 from. It is from the
NAB: "New American Bible. Copyright © 1991,1986,1970 by the Confraternity
of Christian Doctrine, 3211 Fourth Street, N.E., Washington, D.C. 20017-1194,
USA. All Rights Reserved.
Here is the
New KJV:
Psalm 81:
3 Blow the trumpet at the time of the New Moon, At the full moon, on our solemn
feast day.
4 For this is a statute for
5 This He established in Joseph as a testimony, When He went throughout the
Intead of
"full moon", the KJV used "time appointed" in Ps 81:3.
"time appointed" is from "keceh", Hebrew for "full
moon". Here are some other versions which properly translated
"keceh" into "full moon":
The lunar
cycle is on the average 29 days 12 hours and 44 minutes. This is the period
from new moon to the next new moon. From new moon to full moon is half of this
value and is equivalent to 14 days 18 hours and 22 minutes. But long, long
before man came to know of this value, God had already made it relatively easy
for the Israelites to celebrate Passover in its appointed season which is on a
full moon, by specifying that Passover be eaten on the nighttime after sunset
of the 14th. He Who created the moon SURELY knows that as per His design, the
nighttime after sunset of the 14th in the lunisolar calendar of the Hebrews is
always a full moon.
In Exodus 12
where the first Passover was instituted in
of the month,
the lamb for Passover had to be selected:
KJV Exodus 12:1-3
1 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying, 2 This month shall be unto you the
beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you.
3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of
The 10th day
of the month requirement tells us the Israelites should not wait until a Rabbi
declares it is the full moon because the 10th of the month would have, by then,
passed when they were supposed to have taken out the lamb for Passover.
When God
decreed in the above verses that the Passover month shall be the first month of
the year, He knew that the nighttime after sunset of the 14th was a full moon
that month. He gave the Israelites an exact starting point for the reckoning of
their months. Their very first month, their beginning of months, had a full
moon on the nighttime after sunset of the 14th. Their subsequent monthly
reckonings should be relatively easy by an alternating 29 and 30 days to a
month.
ASV Psalm 81:3 Blow the
trumpet at the new moon, At the full moon, on our feast-day.
BBE Psalm 81:3 Let the horn be sounded in the
time of the new moon, at the full moon, on our holy feast-day:
CJB Psalm 81:4 Sound the shofar at Rosh-Hodesh
and at full moon for the pilgrim feast,
CSB Psalm 81:3 Blow the horn during the new moon
and during the full moon, on the day of our feast.
ERV Psalm 81:3 Blow up the trumpet in the new
moon, at the full moon, on our solemn feast day.
ESV Psalm 81:3 Blow the trumpet at the new moon,
at the full moon, on our feast day.
GWN Psalm 81:3 Blow the ram's horn on the day of
the new moon, on the day of the full moon, on our festival days.
JPS Psalm 81:3 (81-4) Blow the horn at the new
moon, at the full moon for our feast-day.
NAB Psalm 81:4 Blow the trumpet at the new moon,
at the full moon, on our solemn feast.
NAS Psalm 81:3 Blow the trumpet at the new moon,
At the full moon, on our feast day.
NET Psalm 81:3 Sound the ram's horn on the day
of the new moon, and on the day of the full moon when our festival begins.
NIB Psalm 81:3 Sound the ram's horn at the New
Moon, and when the moon is full, on the day of our Feast;
NIV Psalm 81:3 Sound the ram's horn at the New
Moon, and when the moon is full, on the day of our Feast;
NJB Psalm 81:3 blow the trumpet for the new
month, for the full moon, for our feast day!
NKJ Psalm 81:3 Blow the trumpet at the time of
the New Moon, At the full moon, on our solemn feast day.
NLT Psalm 81:3 Blow the ram's horn at new moon,
and again at full moon to call a festival!
NRS Psalm 81:3 Blow the trumpet at the new moon,
at the full moon, on our festal day.
RSV Psalm 81:3 Blow the trumpet at the new moon,
at the full moon, on our feast day.
King Solomon
also used "keceh" in Proverbs 7:20.
Gerhard:
Context
demands Proverbs 7:20, ‘םאכּ’ -
‘kesech’ - “DAY” - ‘yom’, “appointed”; and Psalm 81:3, ‘םהכּ’ - ‘keseh’ / <keceh> - “time appointed” [EHCC
606, 608] will have to do with ‘kadesh’ - “new” and ‘kodesh’ - “new moon”.
Gregory:
The idea that
they alternated months of 29 days and 30 days is an interesting idea. Not
everyone would agree with that idea.
Now you
reference the lunisolar calendar. Are you aware that the lunisolar calendar
sometimes had 12 months and at other times it had 13 months. NOTE: The 13 month
year had more days in it than did the 12 month year.
The above post
sounds to me like you equate the lunar calendar with the lunisolar calendar.
Perhaps I am wrong. If I am correct that is an interesting view of the
calendars used in the time of Christ.
Samie:
Clearly, the
law specifies that the appointed season for Passover as determined by the moon
is the FULL MOON.
Gerhard:
The Exodus out
of
The LORD
provided light for the children of
In the
darkness over night-time, the Cloud was a "Pillar of Fire"; IN THE
DARKNESS DURING DAY-TIME, the Cloud was the shadow-protection and LIGHT of the
Pillar of Cloud which was Christ who is "the Light of Life".
The moon was
not and could not be seen during the exodus, but was "thick darkness"
like were there no sun or moon or stars. The darkness of the Passover of Yahweh
is perfect darkness like occurred from noon until mid-afternoon when Jesus
suffered the Passover of Yahweh on the cross. The darkness during Christ's
Suffering of the Passover of Yahweh was the "three days absolute
darkness" of the exodus IN "THREE HOURS THERE WAS DARKNESS".
"There
was darkness", means, DARKNESS RULED; Jesus’ Passover Suffering descended
below death, and below point zero into a black hole that sucks up life and
light. Which is why the “three
hours” Suffering of Passover of Jesus Christ represented the "THREE DAYS
DARKNESS" of the exodus compressed into one “DAY OF THE LORD” IN
“SORROWFULNESS
EXCEEDING DEATH”.
‘KESEH’
Young’s Analytical Concordance: ‘time appointed’
Look at
‘chodesh’ – “moon”; ‘chadash’ - “new”;
‘chad’ –
“sharp” / “cleft”; ‘chaq’ – “feast” / “solemn feast” / “first”.
The ‘ch’ //
‘k’ and ‘o’ // ‘a’ > ‘e’, plus ‘kese’ - ‘to appoint’, to form ‘keseh’ -
“appointed feast”.
“Appointed
feast” of the ‘sharp’ / ‘new’ / ‘first sliver’-“moon” [as seen through the
‘cleft’ or ‘portals of the heavens’].
Young’s
Analytical Concordance adds: “see ‘seh’”
‘Seh’ - “lamb”
/ “sheep” to form ‘keseh’ : “time appointed” for ‘keseb’ - “sheep” / “lamb” to
be offered FOR THE NEW MOON’S FEAST.
For no ‘full’
moon-feast!
Now look at
your list of ‘translations’—they are all ‘modern’: which tells its own story
about their trustworthiness as far as Psalm 81 is concerned.
“Full moon” is
a FALSE and FAKED ‘translation’.
I do not
hesitate to say WHY these modern quasi-translations use <<full
moon>> for NO reason whatsoever in the Hebrew text. Their hoax surprises
me not at all.
It is because they want to create something out
of the Scriptures to give Easter a Christian face. So this full moon monster is
only an icon or idol of the heavenly no-gods they worship next to their chief
object of superstitious veneration, ‘The day of the lord Sun’, Sunday and
Easter Sunday.
Samie:
In the KJV,
the phrase "time appointed" is used 12 times in the OT:
In Ps 81:3, "time appointed" is from
"keceh".
In Dan 10:1, "time appointed" is from
"tsabah".
"time appointed" is from
"mow'ed" in the following 10 verses: Gen 18:14; Exod 23:15; Josh
8:14; 1 Sam 20:35; 2 Sam 24:15; Jer 46:17; Dan 8:19; 11:27, 29, 35;
Any comment, Bro Gerhard?
Gerhard:
Yes; one
question:
I do not see 'full moon'; am I blind?
Samie:
Maybe not.
Only, you close your eyes when you are about to see "full moon". Can
you see with your eyes closed, my brother?
Gerhard:
May I answer
here to our learned Pastor’s advice above?
Gregory:
Gerhard, I am
not going to suggest which is the best translation of the Hebrew word in
question. That is not my issue here. However, if you want to tell us how a
Biblical Hebrew or Greek word should be translated you should never use either
Strong of Young. Those tell us how the Biblical words have been translated into
English at the time Young and Strong were written. They do were not intended to
define them.
If you want to
debate their meaning, you need to support you view by the use of a lexicon. Your
use of Young to support your view simply demonstrates that you do not have an
understanding of the Biblical languages.
Gerhard:
Pastor
Matthews, Only one question
please,
I did as you
advised, and checked up the Englishman's Hebrew and Chaldee Concordance the
mighty work of a host of mighty Hebrew scholars, including one of the greatest
of all time, the inimitable Benjamin Davidson, whose own Hebrew and Chaldee
Lexicon of “The entire body of Words contained in the Hebrew Scriptures,
exactly as they are found in the
Text”—
I checked
through them both like I did with Young’s, but strange, I COULD NOT FIND THE WORDS, “FULL
MOON”!
Now Young
compiled his Concordance for the ploughboy like Tyndale translated the Bible
for the ploughboy, so that backbush Boere like myself can also understand. But
strange, once again, I COULD
NOT FIND A SINGLE DISCREPANCY BETWEEN ANY OF THE THREE WORKS.
It is only
that I found Young’s so helpful to the ignorant like myself, that in the end it
felt like I wasted my time on the ‘big’ scholarly books. Because I am in fact
thoroughly ignorant of the Hebrew so that I needed the simpler work—WHICH
ONLY THE GREATER SCHOLAR was qualified to write for them.
Even so I can
thank God for Young’s, but feign would thank Him for magnificent Lexicons and
Concordances.
So, with all
due respect, Pastor Matthews,
Only one
question to you, too, please, I
did as you advised, BUT COULD
NOT FIND THE WORDS “FULL MOON” in
those big works.
Now I am open
to be corrected …. [or is it
‘open for correction’? As you will have noticed, I am not an English speaking
person.]
Samie:
From the Jews:
JPS Psalm 81:3 (81-4) Blow the
horn at the new moon, at the full moon for our feast-day.
JPS HOLY
SCRIPTURES 1917 (English).
The Bible text
designated JPS 1917 is from The Holy Scriptures (Old Testament), originally
published by the Jewish Publication Society in 1917. Electronic text Copyright © 1995-98 by
Larry Nelson (
92235). All
rights reserved.
The Jewish
Publication Society is non-Christian. Would they translate "keseh"
into "full moon" and give "Easter a Christian face" as you
claimed?
Your move...
Gerhard:
<<<Maybe
not. Only, you close your eyes when you are about to see "full moon".
Can you see with your eyes closed, my brother?>>>
You really
obliged?! Unbelievable! More
mate, MORE!
Answer hoax
with hoax .... <<<JPS HOLY SCRIPTURES 1917 (English).>>> MORE Samie, MORE like this!!!
The Lexicons
and Concordances – like those referred to above – are Christian and COULD have
had an interest in rendering <<"keseh"
into "full moon" and give "Easter a Christian face">>,
BUT THEY DID NOT!
In any case,
<< JPS HOLY SCRIPTURES 1917
(English)>>, is <English>,
and on top, twentieth century, meaning that <The Jewish Publication Society> INTENDED to have the Scriptures
understood in a way THEIR OWN AGE – MAINLY the Easter-believing English world –
WOULD UNDERSTAND IT.
<The Jewish Publication Society> I
would stick out my neck to say, were English-speaking children of their OWN age
rather than the age of Moses, who wanted to be understood by their readers as
also English-speaking children of their common age who understood their
‘Scriptures’ just like all English-speaking children of their age, would.
It can be
guaranteed unconditionally <The Jewish
Publication Society> KNEW FAR LESS than Christian scholars about Hebrew
as an ancient language; and have done virtually nothing in comparison with the
Christians in the field of applied linguistics and semantics and so forth. I
don’t care which <Jewish Society>
they will always be WEIGHTLESS on the scale against Christian scholarship.
Meantime the
bare fact stands, NOWHERE in the Bible is the full moon mentioned.
I can think of
three instances where the full moon is DESCRIBED in word-picture. WHY IS
‘KESEB’ NOT USED HERE: Job 31:26 Song of Songs 6:10 Isaiah 3:18?
Because ‘keseb’ had nothing to do with the full
moon in the Scriptures, EVER!
Samie:
KJV Proverbs
26:4-5
4 Answer not a fool according
to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
5 Answer a fool according to
his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit
I think I have
done verse 5. It's now time for verse 4: I rest my case.
Gregory:
Let us clarify
the difference between a concordance and a lexicon.
You reference
the Englishman's Hebrew and Chaldee Concordance. This was a book that was
published in the mid 1800's. Dates given for its publication are typically 1866
& 1843. As a concordance it is simply a listing of the Hebrew (and Aramaic)
words found in the O.T. and a listing of the verse in which each word is found.
For that purpose it is an excellent work, as long as one keeps in mind that it
is only accurate for the textual manuscripts that it surveyed and were
available in the early to mid 1800's.
The Young and
Strong concordances are of value in that they tell us how each of the
Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic words have been translated into English.
I use
concordances often as they are of value. Their value is in telling us what
verses contain specific Biblical words and in the case of an English
concordance how those Biblical words have been translated into English. They
are NOT of major value in telling us the meaning of the Biblical word. To
determine the meaning of the Biblical word you need to use what is called a
lexicon for the Biblical word. A dictionary is like a lexicon except that those
that pertain to a Biblical language are called lexicons.
you tell us
that you have looked at Benjamin Davidson's, Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon. You
are clearly correct that this was a major scholarly work. It was of major
importance in that it was an analytical lexicon, which is a category in itself.
However, I note that this work was published in
1848. It is clearly dated. The understanding of the Semitic languages has
progressed much since 1848. It was a masterpiece in its time. It continues to
have value today. However, there are other lexicons in print today who are much
better.
If you want to
understand the meaning to the Biblical languages you should not depend upon
this outdated work. Base your understanding on lexicons that are much more up
to date. Our knowledge of the Semitic languages today is far beyond what it was
in 1848
Samie: I am
perplexed by your reference to the 1917 JPS publication,
Quote:
The translation,
which appeared in 1917, is heavily indebted to the Revised Version and American
Standard Version.[2] It differs from them in many passages where Jewish and
Christian interpretations differ, notably in Isaiah 7:14, where it has
"young woman" as opposed to the word "virgin" which is used
in most Christian Bibles. The 1917 edition was deeply indebted to non-Jewish
publications. I wonder why you did not reference the 1985 (published over a
period of several years) JPS publication. It should be noted that the 1985
edition is not related to the 1917 edition.
Samie:
Thanks for the
concern shown this layman, Pastor Matthews. It is much appreciated. Just wanted
to give Bro. Gerhard what he wants: the older the better. Yet, no matter what,
old or new, "kese" or "keseh", is "full moon"
(Harris, et als, Theological Wordbook of the OT;
Gerhard:
Where does
‘keseh’ fit ?
With “moon” – ‘yahrehagh’?
“ordinances of
the moon” Jeremiah 31:35 …
“Brightness of
moon” – ‘yakar’ Job 31:26
“Brightness of
moon” – ‘nogah’ Isaiah 60:19
… No!
With “moon” – ‘yehragh’?
Deuteronomy
33:14
Isaiah 60:20
“the moon shall not withdraw / wane”
… No!
With “moon” – ‘levahnah’?
Canticles 6:10
“fair as the moon”.
Isaiah 24:23
“moon confounded”
Isaiah 30:26
“light of the moon as the light of the sun”
… No!
With
‘chohdesh’ – “month” 220 times—with “NEW moon” 20 times?
… YES!
‘Chohdesh’ is
used with ‘keseh’ - “time appointed” - ONCE: in Psalm 81:3, “Blow the trumpet
in the moon / NEW moon / (beginning of) month - 'chodesh';
“in the
appointed time / festival of the NEW moon - 'keseh';
“on our solemn
feast of FIRST / NEW moon -‘chaq’;
“day” - 'yom'.
Where does
‘keseh’ fit in texts with words for the
“moon”? In any
‘full’ moon text or context?
… NO!
ONLY in the
context and content of texts which use the word and concept of the NEW moon!
Isaiah 24:23 “moon
confounded”. If ever there was a
day and date the FULL moon as the sun and stars and all light was
"CONFOUNDED", it was mid-day "the sixth hour" until
"the ninth hour" while the Son of God hang on the cross and there
came a darkness, so painful dark was it, that they who so jeered and scolded
could chew their tongues for relief.
Gregory:
Some
reading this thread may wonder why I have commented extensively on the issue of
the Jewish calendars and I have not commented on what would be considered the
major issue. IOW, why deal with what may be a minor issue and leave the major
one alone.
In
science, it is thought that if the protocols are flawed, the conclusions should
not be accepted even if they are correct. I will give a couple of examples.
Let us say
that I want to study the relation between tobacco use and lung cancer in the
I will
give one more example. Let us say that I want to determine the specific gravity
of lead and I do not have available to me a table of the specific gravity of
various metals. So I take my sample of lead and determine it’s mass. Then I
compare that mass with an equal volume of water and I come to the conclusion
that the specific gravity of my sample of lead is 11340. That happens to be a
correct figure for the specific gravity of lead under standard conditions.
Let us say
that when I did my measurements my water was ocean water at a temperature of 10
degrees C. That is not standard conditions. Let us also say that there is
another confounding factor. My sample of lead was contaminated by some included
uranium and my measurements were off due to the fact that I read the measuring
device upside down and I read a 9 as a 6. So, while my conclusion was correct,
it cannot be accepted due to the fact that my protocols were faulty.
In this
thread, I have concentrated on the Jewish calendars due to the fact that the
conclusions cannot be considered correct absent the establishment of a valid
understanding of the calendars and how months and days may have been determined
in the time of Christ.
Gerhard:
I HAVE,
rested my case --- on the Word of God.
Gregory:
Tell me
where (Give me a chapter and verse.) where the word of God tells us how a
Jewish festival day relates to the calendar that we use today.
If you
want to tell us when Passover, the 1st or 12th Jewish month you have to give us
that date in terms of our calendar. In order to do that you have to have a
knowledge of the calendars that goes beyond what the Bible (I assume that your
reference to the Word of God is to the Bible.) tells us.
The bottom
line is: You do not go solely by the Word of God. You demonstrate your lack of
knowledge of the various calendars used in the time of Christ and today.
Does that
mean that you are wrong in setting your date? No. It does not mean that you are
wrong in setting your date. It simply means that you have failed to prove your
thesis.
In this thread, I have
concentrated on the Jewish calendars due to the fact that the conclusions
cannot be considered correct absent the establishment of a valid understanding
of the calendars and how months and days may have been determined in the time
of Christ.
Samie:
For my part, the
non-establishment or establishment of a valid understanding of the Jewish
calendar and how months and days may have been determined in the time of Christ
does not play a determining role in the conclusion I arrived at.
Why?
Because my reference is not the
Jewish calendar but the ACT of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. What ACT? His ACT
of eating Passover. And I believed that ACT was done on a full moon night.
Do you agree that the Lord ate
Passover with His disciples on a full moon night prior to His arrest? If NO,
why?
Gerhard:
Yes Samie, I do agree with you.
And I liked the way you put it,
<<<the ACT of the Lord Jesus
Christ Himself. What ACT? His ACT of eating Passover.>>>
I think that was very good; and
that is exactly how I believe CHRIST "ATE", THE PASSOVER OF YAHWEH
--- HE LIVED IT; HE WAS IT; HE SUFFERED IT: HIMSELF HAVING BEEN THE BREAD OF
LIFE BROKEN AND THE LAMB OF GOD KILLED --- which <<ACT>> of Jesus
was his act of EATING the last Passover.
And yes, it DID occur on a full
moon night --- a full moon night and day because it was “the fourteenth day”,
"the first day to remove leaven on” (Exodus 12:15 “in its season”
Leviticus 23:4)— “the first day (of the Passover of Yahweh) they always had to
KILL the passover on" Mark 14:12,17 Matthew 26:17,20 Luke 22:7,14 John
13:1,30 1Corinthians 11:23.
As far as I can see – as far as
this aspect of Jesus’ Last Passover is concerned, there is only the difference
as to whether or not Jesus’ <ACT> of having ‘eaten’ the Passover of
Yahweh was to ‘EAT’ “The Flesh” of it – Himself --, or to eat the Bread on the
table which He “GAVE” --- as “MY flesh” --- to his disciples, to eat.
Samie:
This is wonderful, my brother.
Since you likewise acknowledge
that the Lord ate Passover on a full moon night with His disciples prior to His
arrest, do you also believe as I do that using current technology it is not
difficult to map that specific full moon night with the Gregorian calendar?
Gerhard:
Thirty
years ago I might have tried. Actually I did try. But I did not find it
<<not difficult>>. On the
contrary I found it impossible and though an attempt unmatched to this day, I
today estimate my attempt OF NO AVAIL— in fact, an irrelevant and meaningless
attempt!
All this
calendar stuff you can find in the first volume of my book 'The Lord's Day in
the Covenant of Grace' --- first published in Afrikaans - ironically titled :
'Light upon the Lord's Day' – ‘Lig op die Dag van die Here’ – LONG before the
days of internet. The English followed not long after, published also maybe 15
years, no, longer, before internet OR COMPUTERS for that matter. At the same
time I had to learn the English language. At first my papers were handwritten—
on one side only, then I cut them literally into pieces and arranged the pieces
to subject-matter, spread out all over the floor and desk and book-cases; then
I re-wrote the whole lot and repeated the same process for how many times ---
not until the result was 100%, but until more or less, order was discernible.
In the early days of internet, some 'rating site' awarded the first set of
books 95% for 'subject ordering' (or whatever they called it). My physical 'cut
and paste' efforts paid off! I tell you this because in those days for me, it
was the only way to do things.
'Paper
159' I think it was, written by some COG person, was my introduction to the 'calendars
debate'. But through the years as the Scriptures became more clear to me, the
importance of calendars and ‘astrometric science’ declined.
God
expects of no disciple of Jesus Christ to be a scientist; only to be a believer
in the Scriptures. The older I get the more important the Scriptures and the
principle of ‘the Scriptures only’, become.
I
discovered two great truths— of all things, on sugar sachets – my wife having
taken me out for ‘tea for two’.
On the one
sachet, Pierre Schmidt, a Swiss dietician if I’m not mistaken, says, “Truth
always expresses itself with the greatest simplicity.”
The other
sachet had this written on it --- I write from memory --- “Discovery is to see
what everyone sees, but to think what no one thinks or has thought.” My best
friend and I were talking of things most precious to us. I gave this saying. I
had to repeat it to him so he could memorise it there and then; he found it
most precious too.
I am
therefore sorry to admit that I do not attach the same importance you do, to
<<<using current technology to
map that specific full moon night with the Gregorian calendar>>>.
To me it really is inconsequential.
I pray you
will revert to the ‘technology’ of “Sola Scriptura” and “Sola Fidei”. I am sure
you will find it far more rewarding and fully sufficient in an understanding of
“THE THINGS CONCERNING THE CHRIST HOW THAT HE HAD TO SUFFER-PASCHA”.
Gregory:
Yes, both Samie and Gerhard:
You believe that Christ ate the Passover on a full moon night. In order to
relate that day and month to a day and month in our present calendar you have
to understand the Jewish festival calendar. Without that understanding one
cannot relate that day to a present day.
1) In the
time of Christ the term "Passover" was typically used to apply to Nisan
14, but sometimes it was used to apply to The Feast of Unleavened Bread. This
is demonstrated by Josephus in ANTIQUITIES. Also check out Luke 22:7, for an
interesting verse and there are others.
2) All
modern tables that attempt to give the full moon during the time of Christ use
modern methods of computing the Passover, which was not how Passover was
computed in the time of Christ.
3)
Knowledge as to how the lunar calendar of the time of Christ can be coordinated
with our solar year is simply lacking. We can not do it with certainty. In
fact, we can not calculate with 100% certainty either the day of the week or
the month in which the Passover of Christ occurred.
NOTE: Yes,
I believe in a Thursday night celebration of the Passover, with a Friday
crucifixion and a Sunday morning resurrection.
Samie:
I don't
think so, Pastor. Full moon occurrences were NEVER dependent on the Jewish
festival calendar. It is the Jewish festival calendar that had to be tied up
with the full moon occurrence.
Gregory:
This issue
is further confounded by the fact that in the time of Christ there was more
than one Jewish festival calendar in use.
Samie:
That only
proves further that the Jewish festival calendars then were most probably
erroneous. This fact was made evident by the Lord's eating of Passover ahead of
the Jewish national celebration. So what's the need of relating our current day
and month in our present calendar with an ERRONEOUS date in the Jewish festival
calendars? It is common knowledge that the Jewish month Nisan or Abib roughly
corresponds to the mid-March to mid-April period in our present day calendar.
All that need to be done is locate the first full moon after the vernal equinox
in the crucifixion year of our Lord.
Gregory:
The date
for Easter is the issue that split the Christian Church many years ago. It is
this issue that results in the Orthodox Church celebrating Easter, sometimes,
on a date different from the Roman Church.
NOTE:
Occasionally they celebrate Easter on the same day. That happened this year
(2014) when Easter was celebrated by both groups on April 20.
However,
here are the dates for Easter in the future:
2015:
Orthodox on April 12
Roman on
April 5
2016:
Orthodox on May 1
Roman on
March 27
The issues
that divided the Christian Church in the past are complex. I do not believe
that either of you have ever addressed these issues. That is just one of the
reasons that I do not believe that either of you understand the issues.
Samie:
The issues
you speak of, Pastor, do NOT in any way impact on the issue of pinpointing the
full moon occurrence when our Lord ate Passover the night He was arrested. Full
moon occurrences can be traced backward in time and zero in on the full moon
night when our Lord was arrested, without taking into consideration the issues
you are referring to. I am quite puzzled why you insist on addressing these
IRRELEVANT issues.
Gregory:
If you do
not understand and/or address the issues, why should anyone take you seriously
as to your conclusions?
Here are
major questions
1) Did
Christ celebrate Passover on the same date that the Jews celebrated it?
If you say
that Christ celebrated Passover on a different day from that observed by the
Jews in His time, support your thesis. A reasonable person would suggest that
Christ celebrated Passover on the same day.
2) What
calendar was used to track the Jewish festivals in the time of Christ?
The
Calendar used in the time of Christ sometimes had 12 months and sometimes 13
months in a year. Its months sometimes had 29 days and sometimes had 30 days.
The 13
month calendar had Adar as the name for the 12trh month, as did the 12 month
calendar, and it had Adar II as the name for the 13th month.
This
difference in months affected the beginning of the 1st month, which was named
Nisan. It also resulted in some years there were more days between Passover
than there were in other years.
3) How was
the date for the "Full moon" determined?
Sometime
in the 4th century after Christ, the Jews developed an astronomical method of
calculating fixed dates for the Jewish festivals. This was done to accommodate
the diaspora--the Jews who were scattered among other nations and who with this
new method of calculating the festival dates could keep them on the same
date--if they chose to accept this new method of reckoning the date.
Prior to
the development of this new astronomical method of calculating the festival
dates, the date of the New Moon was a date that was determined by a Rabbi in
It was
also in the 4th century that the Jewish calendar began a 19 year cycle that had
further impact on the festival dates.
While some
might say that this 19 year cycle existed in the time of Christ, I do not
believe that the evidence supports this thesis.
4) It
should be noted that I am concentrating on Jewish festival dates. I am not
spending my time with a civil calendar. I will only say in passing that in the
time of Christ civil calendars existed that used a Regnal method of tracking
time and that used a Roman civil method which is typically called the Julian
calendar today.
NOTE:
Regnal is the correct spelling.
It should
be noted that the Bible sometime uses the Regnal method. It is used extensively
in the O.T. but also sometimes in the N.T.--Luke 3:1 is an example.
The Regnal
method is complicated by the fact that Regnal years were calculated by two (2)
methods. One has been called the "accession year" method. The 2nd
method has been called by a couple of names, one of which is the
"antedating method."
There are
other issues with the Regnal method.
There were
also other methods of calculating the civil years that were used in the time of
Christ. The Olympiad method had been used since about 776 B.C. The A.U.C. (ab
urbe condita) method had been used since about 753, although these dates are
not exact.
5) My
discussion above is brief and does not cover every issue. But, what I have said
above is elementary and available easily to anyone who wants to study the
issues.
NOTE: I
plan to say a bit more in another post.
My
personal position: Our knowledge level is such that we cannot say with 1002%
certainty as to the exact date of the crucifixion and resurrection. We can get
close, but not absolute certainty.
1) In the
time of Christ the term "Passover" was typically used to apply to
Nisan 14, but sometimes it was used to apply to The Feast of Unleavened Bread.
This is demonstrated by Josephus in ANTIQUITIES. Also check out Luke 22:7, for
an interesting verse and there are others.
2) All
modern tables that attempt to give the full moon during the time of Christ use
modern methods of computing the Passover, which was not how Passover was
computed in the time of Christ.
3)
Knowledge as to how the lunar calendar of the time of Christ can be coordinated
with our solar year is simply lacking. We can not do it with certainty. In
fact, we can not calculate with 100% certainty either the day of the week or
the month in which the Passover of Christ occurred.
NOTE: Yes,
I believe in a Thursday night celebration of the Passover, with a Friday
crucifixion and a Sunday morning resurrection.
Samie:
I don't think so, Pastor. Full
moon occurrences were NEVER dependent on the Jewish festival calendar. It is
the Jewish festival calendar that had to be tied up with the full moon
occurrence.
Can you
show HOW the issues you speak of PLAY an INDISPENSABLE role in locating the
full moon night when the Lord was arrested?
Gregory:
If you do not understand and/or
address the issues, why should anyone take you seriously as to your
conclusions?
Can you show HOW the issues you
speak of PLAY an INDISPENSABLE role in locating the full moon night when the
Lord was arrested?
Gerhard:
It is of
NO interest to a Christian in which exact YEAR Jesus Christ suffered death and
resurrected again.
But the
Scriptures itself and Jesus Himself STRESS the "three days" that it
would take Him to die, be buried and resurrect.
My stance
is the SCRIPTURES DO THOROUGHLY EXPLAIN THIS.
No one
seems to bother to notice anything the SCRIPTURES have to say about the matter.
First of
all the SCRIPTURES explain HOW, IN WHAT MANNER AND SENSE, Christ
"ATE" His Last Passover BY BEING the Passover Lamb of God THROUGH
SUFFERING DEATH.
No one
seems to care one bit.
Next the
SCRIPTURES distinguish and identify and MEANINGFULLY circumscribe the DAYS of
the week as well as DATES of the month "in their season".
These
passover days and dates DIFFERED FROM THE
BEGINNING I.E. FROM
THE EXODUS --- which explains why Jesus with DYING DEATH, "ATE" the
Passover of Yahweh on the FOURTEENTH day of the First Month, while the Jews
would have "EATEN" the FOLLOWING day in "the first night",
"the flesh with unleavened bread”, “in the FIFTEENTH day of the
month" --- for “seven days, unleavened bread".
The two
dates of the fourteenth AND the fifteenth days of the First Month ARE DATES
“PROCLAIMED” BY THE SCRIPTURES IN THE SCRIPTURES, Old AND New Testaments
identically the same.
The two
dates and the two meals on the 14th and on the 15th are NOT coming from
different Jewish sects or from lunar calendars or whatever.
If it were
not these two days and two meals, the SCRIPTURES would not be fulfilled but
proven false, and so its Messiah --- GOD FORBID!
Samie, Can
you tell me - just for interest sake ---
Suppose
Jesus entered
Suppose
the walk from Ephraim to
Now
suppose “passover was nigh at hand” in John 11:55 meant the month of Abib had
begun to be “observed”: “observe the month of Abib” the month of the passover,
then the first day of the First Month and the new moon occurred on the Sixth
Day of the week before.
Now, Alex,
I ask for interest sake only, Does your calculation of the full moon fourteenth
on a ‘Wednesday’, correlate with a Sixth Day first day of Abib and first new
moon after vernal equinox?
Samie:
Did Christ
celebrate Passover on the same date that the Jews celebrated it?
Scriptures
indicate the Lord ate Passover ahead of the Jews. He ate Passover on the night He
was arrested. The Jews ate Passover the next night, on the night immediately
following His crucifixion.
In 31 AD,
the first full moon AFTER the vernal equinox was on Tuesday, March 27. I FIRMLY
believe, even if you don't, that the Lord Jesus Christ through Whom God made
the worlds including the moon, can NEVER lose track of when full moon was to
occur. He ate Passover that same full moon night in COMPLIANCE with the Law He
said He came to fulfill. He was crucified Wednesday, March 28. 3 days and 3
nights later as He Himself specified, He resurrected early Saturday morning,
March 31.
March 28
was prosabbaton or day before Sabbath and preparation day of passover ((Mark
15:42; John 19:14, 31). Thursday, March 29 was ceremonial Sabbath. They
prepared the spices they bought Friday when the ceremonial Sabbath was past
(Mark 16:1), and then rested the Sabbath according to the commandment, Saturday
(Luke 23:56). Mark recorded Jesus resurrected on "proi prote
sabbatou" = "early morning of the chief sabbath" (Mark 16:9).
I don't
see any NEED of interpolating or extrapolating our current date with the
festival calendar of the Jews in order to arrive at the full moon occurrence
when the Lord ate Passover that same night He was arrested.
Gerhard:
You
haven't answered my question or rather request.
Please
don't mind; everybody can do without it, see, that's what I wanted to show.
It's a useless question with a useless answer.
Gregory:
You
mention March 27, 28 & 29. By doing so, you have to be able to coordinate
dates between the calendar that we use and you just did and the Jewish
calendar.
Samie:
What for?
You yourself provided proof there exists more than one Jewish calendar then. If
you yourself are not able to coordinate your belief in a Friday crucifixion and
Sunday resurrection with either one of the festival calendars of the Jews, why
require others to do what you yourself could not do?
Gregory:
You are in
error. I clearly can coordinate my personal belief with a Jewish festival
calendar. I have never said otherwise. What I have said is that none of the
various proposals for the time of the death and resurrection of Christ can be
stated with 100% certainty.
Because
none of them can be stated with certainty, I have neither defended my personal
position nor have I attacked your position as to the dates/time of those
events.
What I
have done is to criticize your basic ignorance of factors that influence the
issues around this question.
Gerhard:
As far as
I am concerned there is no "question" about the 'different' but not
'differing' dates of 14 and 15 Abib and their different but not differing
meals.
The ONLY
<<basic factor>> with any
<influence> as far as I am
concerned, again, IS THE SCRIPTURES --- NO computer geniuses and NO calendars
experts are needed or can add the least of value to what the Scriptures only
offer.
Gregory:
Perhaps, I
am wrong and you are not ignorant of those factors. But, on the basis of your
responses to me and posts that you have made, I believe that you are ignorant
of those aspects of the question.
Samie:
I am sorry
but the way you dance around the issues, Pastor, really amazes me.
As SDA
minister you cannot deny the fact that you accept April 27, 31 AD as
crucifixion date, making the Lord eat Passover on a NON-FULL MOON night. But
you just weave and heave and simply IGNORE what was asked and then RANT at
something else not asked.
Gregory:
I find it
interesting that you would say that I can not deny April 27 as the crucifixion
date as a SDA Minister.
1) The
2) The
leading thinking of Seventh-day Adventist scholars is that there are three (3)
potential days for the crucifixion, which converted to our time would be: April
3, April 7 and April 27.
Those
scholars believe that the evidence is very strong to rule out April 3.
They
acknowledge that April 7 may be possible if the Jews followed one of the
calendars then in use. However, they believe that two further assumptions are
required for this date which cannot be proven and they question whether or not
the Jews actually did follow that calendar.
As to the
April 27 date which you mention, yes SDA scholars have generally accepted April
27, in our time, as the
date of
the crucifixion.
However,
those scholars believe that the April 27 date is reasonable, but that it rests
on some assumptions that cannot be proven.
3) AS the
This is
one reason why I have never challenged you as to a specific date. You and all
whom you convince can believe any date that you want to believe. You do not
have to believe in the April 27 date. You can believe in some other date for
the crucifixion and remain a good Seventh-day Adventist.
4) It
appears to me that in addition to not understanding the issues related to the
calendar, you do not understand what SDAs require members to believe. While
many SDA Scholars do believe in an April 27 date, they acknowledge that it
cannot be proven and it is not required as an article of faith. Regardless of
what I may personally believe, I have never stated that April 27 is an article
of faith that others must believe in order to be a SDA. They do not.
Samie:
I am just
curious why "IGNORE & RANT" combined does not apply to the good
Pastor. I am sad I have to get down this low.
But so
far, I have shown that the factors you accuse me of being ignorant of, do not
play any role in pinpointing the full moon occurrence when our Lord ate
Passover the night He was arrested. Your position in this issue relegates the
Savior to a position of eating Passover on a night NOT in accord with the law
He said He came to fulfill.
Your
insistence on those factors looks like just a calculated way of getting around
the issue you know you have no escape from.
Gregory:
Actually,
I am dumbfounded on this. I have not gotten into the deep stuff related to
this. I totally fail to understand how it is that you fail to understand basic
aspects of the issues. That knowledge is easily available.
Samie:
I surmise
you likewise believe it is possible to track full moon occurrences backward in
time. The date I provided for the first full moon after the vernal equinox in
AD 31 is beyond question. As SDA minister, you instead accept April 27 as
crucifixion date, which would place the Lord's eating of Passover on a NON-FULL
MOON night.
It has
been stated that Christ observed the Passover supper on the day proceeding the
day when the Jews observed the Passover.
Gregory:
That
statement may be a partial truth. Christ may have observed the Passover supper
on a day that was before certain Jewish groups observed it. As I have said,
there were in the time of Christ, differences in the observance of the Jewish
festival days.
I am not
going to argue that point as I do not believe that it can be settled with 100%
certainty.
Samie:
You seem
to imply that when John said it was preparation day of passover when the Lord
was crucified, he was not 100% certain of what he was saying.
Between
what the Bible says and what a Pastor believes, I choose Scriptures.
Gregory:
It is
proposed by some that John does not agree with
Matthews,
Mark and Luke.
I take the
position that all four are in agreement. My position is that John, Matthew,
Mark and Luke all knew what they were saying.
The
problem is not with them. Any problem is with our understanding of what they
are saying.
As this
issue has been well discussed, I will leave the solution for you to acknowledge
and bring up if you wish.
Samie:
As
minister of the word, do you have any Biblical basis for your claim?
Gregory:
Is there a
Biblical basis? Yes.
But, as I
said, I am not going to debate this issue.
Samie:
You
brought out 3 dates: Apr 3, 7, & 27 in 31 AD. All those dates would
relegate our Lord to a position of eating Passover on a NON-FULL MOON night, an
act NOT in accord with the law He said He came to fulfill.
Why do you
think March 28, 31 AD crucifixion date cannot pass as a better choice, when
that would mean the Lord ate Passover on the full moon night of March 27, a
full moon?
If I
remembered correctly, you reminded pkrause that the date for Passover has everything
to do with a full moon. All four gospel writers agree and were 100% certain
that Jesus ate Passover ahead of the Jews, contrary to what you said it is not
100% He did.
Matthew 26:19-20 19 And the
disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover. 20
Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.
Mark 14:16-17 16 And his
disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto
them: and they made ready the passover. 17 And in the evening he cometh with
the twelve.
Luke 22:13-14 13 And they
went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover. 14
And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
That same
evening, He was arrested. When morning came, He was delivered to Pilate, and
later crucified. John recorded it was preparation of Passover when the Savior
was crucified:
John 19:14 And it was the
preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the
Jews, Behold your King!
You are
not supposed to debate this issue. The Bible settles it 100% that Jesus ate
Passover ahead of the Jews, even if a Pastor does not yet believe:
Gerhard:
Re:
Samie: <<<That same
evening, He was arrested. When morning came, He was delivered to Pilate, and
later crucified. John recorded it was preparation of Passover when the Savior
was crucified>>>
Since it
is mutually agreed <<all four
Gospels agree 100%>>, IT MUST BE THAT
"Preparation-of-Passover" Day of Crucifixion in John 19:14 is 100% identical
"the first day they KILLED the passover" in Mark 14:12,17 Matthew
17,20 Luke 22:7,14 --- "THE DAY BEFORE THE FEAST" John 13:1 and must
be identical with Exodus 12:6 “the fourteenth of the month KILL the passover”
Leviticus 23:15 “the very first day REMOVE leaven”.
Therefore
“Preparation OF Passover”, _was_, the passover— its “very first day”, “the
fourteenth day of the First Month”.
The sore
finger sticking out is the 'middle-finger'. It
sticks out because it
has been chopped off and is conspicuous in its absence on the hands of both
debaters Samie and the Pastor.
That
middle finger has been bottled and shelved and labelled, “Passover’s
BONE-finger”— “severed” / “BROKEN off bone" finger … of course.
The second
of the “THREE days” of Yahweh’s Passover is amiss. So the Catholics masterly
manufactured a prosthesis, trade marked, ‘STILL SATURDAY’ and sold at a
conscience a piece. Their biggest trade-partners? Protestants mostly
Seventh-day Adventists.
Samie:
The Lord
Jesus Christ had already eaten Passover with His disciples before His arrest
that same night. This is BEYOND question.
When
morning came, He was delivered to Pilate, tried and crucified. John recorded
the day He was crucified was preparation day of Passover:
NKJ John 19:14 Now it was the
Preparation Day of the Passover, and about the sixth hour. And he said to the
Jews, "Behold your King!"
NKJ John 19:31 Therefore,
because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the
cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate
that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
While the
Jews were still preparing for Passover, our Savior had already eaten Passover
the night before! There is just no hint of UNCERTAINTY that Jesus ate Passover
a day ahead of the Jews, a fact ATTESTED TO by all four gospel writers.
In ACCORD
with the law He said He came to fulfill, Jesus ate Passover on a full moon
night, ahead by a day than did the Jews. Following their calendar, the Jews ate
Passover a day late, most probably because crescent sighting was a day late
making their calendar dates to fall OUT OF SYNCH with the lunar phase. On the
other hand, our Lord through Whom God made the worlds including the moon, can
NEVER lose track of the lunar phases: He ate Passover on the night the moon was
full. Our Savior followed the lunar phase God designed. The Jews followed the
dates of their festival calendar the dates of which were out of synch with the
lunar phases that month.
If it is
to be insisted that the Jews ate Passover on a full moon, then our Lord's
eating of Passover was not on a full moon, and He would have acted NOT in
accord with the law He said He came to fulfill. But since the Master Himself
said He came to fulfill the law, then it was the Jews who did not eat Passover
on a full moon night.
Who erred:
the Jews or the Lord? Even a first grader knows the correct answer.
Gerhard:
Re:
Samie: <<<The Lord
Jesus Christ had already eaten Passover with His disciples before His arrest
that same night. This is BEYOND question.>>>
Certainly,
and HERE ARE PROOF-SCRIPTURES:
"My
hour IS come", "at the table".
"TAKE
YOU, THIS, IS, MY BODY"
"TAKE
YOU, THIS, IS, MY BLOOD"
"Ye
may eat and drink at MY table in MY Kingdom : AS MY FATHER APPOINTED UNTO ME
...
"this
cup THY WILL be done ...
"being
in AGONY - pascha ...
"great
drops of blood falling DOWN TO THE EARTH
"this
is your hour: indeed the POWER OF DARKNESS
... and
many more
THIS, was
HOW and WHAT Jesus ATE and DRANK --- the holy grail of his
"SUFFERING-PASSOVER OF YAHWEH"!
Samie, it
is NOT written anywhere, Indicative Predicative : Jesus <ATE> of anything
on the table Himself.
Samie:
The Lord
said He will eat Passover with His disciples:
Mark 14:14 ... Where is the
guestchamber, where I shall eat the
passover with my disciples?
Did He
really eat?
KJV Mark 14:
16 And his disciples went
forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.
17 And in the evening he cometh with the twelve. 18 And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth
with me shall betray me.
Looks like
the above verses tell us Jesus ate Passover with His disciples.
Gerhard:
Ostensibly.
Mark
14:14, ‘pou estin to kataluma mou hopou to pascha meta to mathehtohn mou
PHAGOH’ – “I MAY, EAT”.
'phagoh'
Aorist Subjunctive.
Mark
14:15,16 “There make ye PREPARATION for us” – ‘ekeî hetoimásate hehmîn’ … “and
THEY-MADE-PREPARATION FOR the passover” - ‘kai hehtoímasan to pascha’. They were
not partaking in, passover.
Samie:
Yes, not
yet, in that verse, v16. It's in the next verse:
Mark 14:17 And in the evening he cometh with the twelve. 18 And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say
unto you, One of you which eateth with meshall betray me.
They were
eating the Passover they earlier prepared in verse 16!
Gerhard:
They were
partaking IN - Dative, 'hehmîn' - "our preparation". The Last Supper
was for preparing for passover.
Samie, why
have you avoided the words of Jesus that He "most certainly would (or
will) NOT eat this passover with his disciples?
"17
And in the evening he cometh with the twelve. 18 And as they sat and did eat,
Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray
Me."
"They"
are "the twelve". But "JESUS told (them), I tell you, one of YOU
truly / actually -- who is my trusted companion -- will betray Me."
I
recommend you may for a change read a few exegetical commentaries.
Either
Jesus contradicted Himself that He would not PHYSICALLY eat the bread and wine,
or He used figure of speech in the above Scriptures. In other words, Jesus
"ATE" the 'Passover-of-Yahweh' a SPIRITUAL DIVINE MEAL NOT LITERALLY
OF THE FLESH OF ANIMALS OR OF BREAD OR OF WINE on the table which He gave his
disciples to eat but Himself did NOT eat a morsel of.
Jesus
emptied the cup of the LORD's Passover to the dredge passed his way in the
Feast of the Lamb in
But that
Pascha Suffering MEAL began in the room which the disciples found
"PREPARED" for the Suffering “Servant of the LORD." Jesus' bread
He had to eat was the temptations from hell.
You love
to see what you love to see, Samie, and hate what you don't love to see.
He sent
his disciples “TO PREPARE SO THAT WE
MIGHT eat the
passover // so that (they) WOULD eat the passover. EVERYWHERE either a
Subjunctive or a subjunctive Future --- it was NOT the passover meal as such
YET for anyone EXCEPT THE PASSOVER 'MEAL' OF YAHWEH HIMSELF!
The
Synoptists described the PREPARATORY meal FOR the passover-killing that would
go on the next day, and John CALLS IT “NIGHT ... BEFORE THE FEAST” --- it was
NOT, “the Feast”. So the disciples thought Judas went out to buy something “FOR
the Feast”.
Now it
surprises me, the Wednesday crucifixionists always quick to protest no such
things as buying and selling were allowed ‘on the holy feast day’ , insist the
Last Supper was the meal of this holy feast day --- BUT ARE BLIND TO THE FACT
JUDAS went out to buy unhindered.
Ron:
Samie, the
Law tells us that the "appointed season" for Passover is the 14th day
of the month of Abib. You have to start counting
the days of the month two weeks before Passover. There has to be something to
count from, starting on the first day of the month. According to your
astronomical "new moon" calendar, you imagine that people start
counting the days of the moon [month] when there is no moon visible, no sign in
the heavens, and nothing has happened that is detectable by the human senses.
That notion is contrary to Scripture.
Genesis 1:14 tells us:
Then God said, "Let
there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the
night, and let them be for signsand for seasons and for days
and years;
The word
[mis]translated as "seasons" is the Hebrew word "moedim"
which means "appointed times" (not Spring, Summer, Autumn, or
Winter).
Throughout
Scripture "signs" are things that can be seen,
heard, touched,
smelled or tasted. You apparently want us change what "sign" means in
Scripture so that you can include the astronomically calculated "new
moon" that cannot be seen or detected by the human senses, as if it were a
"sign" that could be used to determine God's "appointed
times".
Do you
really think the astronomer's calculations or NASA's software are now ordained
by God to determine God's "appointed times", usurping the role of the
"signs" that God put into the heavens at Creation to determine His
"appointed times"? This is not a trivial change. God appointed the
"new moon" as one of His appointed times. If we change that
"moedim" so that it is no longer based on a sign that can be seen in
the heavens, and instead base it on complex calculations that very few people
understand and actually know how to do, then we would no longer be celebrating
God's appointed times at their proper "season". Those few people who
know how to do the calculations could lead everyone else away from God's
appointed times by simply making a mathematical mistake or by purposely
deceiving people. The religion that God gave us in the Scripture does not rely
on secret arts or secret knowledge. God's religion is recorded openly in the
Bible so everyone who is part of
Samie
Scriptures tell us that God
appointed the moon to determine seasons:
KJV Psalm 104:19 He appointed the moon for seasons: the sun knoweth his going down.
Your
interpretation of this Psalm agrees with what is written in the Law of God.
Samie:
Scriptures specify a full
moon feast instituted in
Psalm 81: 4 Blow the trumpet
at the new moon, at the full moon, on our solemn feast. 5 For this is a law in Israel, an edict of the God of Jacob, 6 Who made it a decree for Joseph when
he came out of the land of Egypt.
The above verses tell us this
full moon feast is a law in
Ron:
Your
interpretation of this Psalm does not agree with what is written in the Law of
God. I believe your interpretation is faulty for these reasons:
The Psalms are not part of
the Law of God.
If you use a Psalm to add to
the Law of God, then you are violating the Law of God by adding to the Law
(Deut 4:2, Deut 12:32).
There is no command in the
Law of God telling anyone to blow trumpets on the day of the astronomical
"new moon". However, there is a command requiring the priests to blow
the trumpet to call the people to assemble (Num. 10). When calling people to
gather at
The words "full
moon" appear in only some Bible versions and in some ancient manuscripts
of Psalm 81:4. The other versions and manuscripts do not contain any words that
refer to the full moon.
The verse does not define
"full moon" as only the night closest to the astronomical "full
moon" event (the hour when the moon is most directly opposite the sun as
viewed from earth) as you insist it must be interpreted. The words "at the
full moon" could be referring instead to the time of the month when the
moon is brightly illuminated at night. It is common for English speaking people
today to declare that "the moon is full tonight" on nights that are a
few days before astronomical "full moon" and on nights that are a few
days after the astronomical "full moon" event. You would make liars
out of those people if "full moon" could only refer to the night (or
day) of the astronomically calculated "full moon". You may be making
a liar out of the author of Psalm 81:4 by insisting that "full moon"
refers only to the night (or day) of the astronomically calculated "full
moon".
The span of nights when the
moon appears "full" is broad enough to include the Passover that occurs
14 days after the sighting of the first sliver of the new moon after sunset. So
"at the full moon" would include the blowing of trumpets for the
feast of Passover.
The "full moon"
time of month also includes the days when the priests would blow the trumpet to
call the people to assemble at
The verse mentions three
times for blowing the trumpets. It does not say those three events occur on the
same day.
For half of the months that
come and go, the astronomical "full moon" and the astronomical
"new moon" events occur during the daylight hours in
Genesis 1:18 tells us that "God made the two great lights,
the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the
night;" Because the lesser light (the moon)
was not given jurisdiction over the daylight hours, it is unlikely that the
"signs" that the moon "shows" to determine the timing of
God's "appointed times" would occur during the hours when the moon
has no jurisdiction. On the other hand, the first sighting of the sliver of new
moon after sunset always occurs during the time of day when the moon actually
has God-given jurisdiction.
Samie:
This feast instituted in
Exodus 12:11 ... it is the LORD'S passover. 12
For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the
firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of
Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD. 13
And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and
when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon
you to destroy you, when I smite the
Clearly, the law specifies
that the appointed season for Passover as determined by the moon is the FULL
MOON.
Ron:
This last
passage says nothing about the moon at all. The only thing that the Law
actually specifies about the Passover in relation to the moon is that the
Passover must start on the 14th day of the month.
PKrause
Exactly Ron!
Ron:
You have
apparently chosen to start counting the days of a month at the time of lunar
cunjunction. At that time of month there is no moon visible in the heavens
(except during lunar eclipses), and there is nothing to see that would prompt a
devout follower of the Bible to start counting the days of a moon or month.
There is no historical evidence showing that the Israelites at the time of
Jesus or at the time of Moses started counting the days of a month at
conjunction. However, there is historical evidence that tells us that the
Sanhedrin at the time of Jesus started counting the days of a month when the
first sliver of moon was sighted in
The
sighting of the first sliver of moon at the beginning of the month is a natural
and reasonable marker for a person to start counting the days of a moon [month]
because it coincides with the moon's visibility. It is natural to think,
"This is the first day we saw the moon," or "This is the 14th
day since we first saw the moon." It would be neither reasonable nor
natural for a person (who did not have the calculations for lunar conjunctions
available) to start counting the days of a moon [month] when the moon was not
visible and had not been visible for a night or two and would not be visible
again for another night or two.
I'm
beginning to suspect, Samie, that you believe common people in Bible times were
able to do the observations and calculations that your astronomical software
does, even though you are unable to do those observations or calculations
yourself without the help of electronic devices.
Samie:
Passover
is a full moon festival. This is beyond question, Ron & pkrause. If you are
SDA, you knew this. If not, then you are supposed to know this.
"kese"
is Hebrew for full moon, and that is the Hebrew word in Ps 81:3.
Originally Posted
By: BHT - TRANSLITERATED BHS HEBREW OLD TESTAMENT 2001. BHT database is
Copyright © 2001 by Matthew Anstey.
v3. Tiq`û
baHödeš šôpär BaK Kësè lüyôm
HaGGënû
v4. Kî cHöq lüyiSrä´ël
hû´ mišPä† lë´löhê
ya`áqöb
v5. `ëdût Bîhôsëp Sämô Bücë´tô `al-erec micräyim Süpat
lö´-yäda`Tî ´ešmä`
From the
New King James Version:
Psalm 81:3 Blow the trumpet at the time of the New
Moon, At the full moon, on our
solemn feast day.
4 For this is a statute for
5 This He established in Joseph as a
testimony, When He went
throughout the
The only
FEAST instituted in
The main
issue in what we are now discussing is whether the Lord ate Passover on a full
moon night or not. My position is that He did, because according to our Lord
Himself, He came to fulfill the law, which obviously includes the instructions
on when Passover is to be eaten. I had already proven from Scriptures that
Passover is a full moon feast.
Ron:
I agree
that Passover occurs at the time of month when the moon is "full"
Samie:
Correct
Ron:
I agree that Passover occurs at the time of
month when the moon is "full" or bright in the sky.
Samie:
Wrong. The
moon may be bright but NOT "full".
Ron:
Passover
is usually a day or two after the astronomically calculated full moon.
Samie:
Not quite.
In a lunisolar calendar that is IN SYNCH with the lunar phases, 14th at evening
when Passover is eaten, is ALWAYS full moon. That is by God's design.
Ron:
Passover is usually a day or
two after the astronomically calculated full moon.
You have
not proven a Scriptural connection between Passover and the astronomically
calculated full moon.
Samie:
I have.
You closed your eyes you did not see. In fact, I just stated the connection
above.
Ron:
You
haven't even explained your methodology for determining which day in
Samie:
The issue
is, when did the Lord eat Passover in 31 AD? My answer: on Tuesday evening,
March 27, a full moon. It's your problem determining what date is that in the
Hebrew calendar.
Ron:
When I
asked you to provide the command in God's Law that Passover be celebrated on
your calculated new moon day,
Samie:
Your
question is wrong. Passover is a FULL MOON feast, NOT a new moon feast.
Ron:
you
provided a passage from the Psalms instead. The Law says nothing about Passover
being a feast that occurs at the astronomically calculated full moon. You are
wanting to add this to the Law, but it is not in the Law of God.
Samie:
It says in
Psalms that Passover is a full moon feast and that it is a law of God. Here
again:
Psalm 81:3 Blow the trumpet at the time of the New Moon, At the full moon, on our
solemn feast day. 4 For
this is a statute for
The only FEAST instituted in
You just
don't want to accept what the Bible says because it goes against what you were
taught and believe in.
All we do
next is trace back the first full moon occurrence after the vernal equinox in
AD 31, the period for Passover observance. That full moon was on Tuesday, March
27, 31 AD.
Simple.
Why make the issue complex, Ron?
Ron:
I am not
making the issue complex. You may think it is complex because you are unable to
answer the objections that are raised against your poorly presented
speculations.
Samie:
You are
imagining unanswered objections, my brother. Speculations? Was Tuesday, March
27, 31 AD NOT a full moon? If you don't know that it was, don't blame it on me.
Ron:
It is your
speculative theory that is actually more complex. If a person were to actually
do all the precise lunar observations and mathematical computations that would
be required to start counting the days of a month using the method that that
you erroneously assert was required by the Law of God, you would see how
complex it really is.
Samie:
If you
can't understand it, don't blame it on someone else.
Ron:
Your
method only seems simple to you because you don't understand what is actually
required to make your system work.
Samie:
I have
given a correct full moon date: Tuesday, March 27, 31 AD. That proves I
understand it. Prove that it's wrong. If you can't, then it's you who don't
understand.
Ron:
Your bluff
is called. Have fun playing with your astronomical software.
Samie:
You are
bluffing, my brother. Is Tuesday, March 27, 31 AD a full moon? If your answer
is No, then sorry, but you are ignorant of the facts and that is not my fault.
If you answered Yes, then you have no reason saying Samie is bluffing.
Ron:
Re: Samie: <<<"kese" is Hebrew for full moon, and that is the Hebrew
word in Ps 81:3.>>>
The word
"kese" occurs only twice in the Bible. Once in Psalms, once in
Proverbs, and never in the Law. Please provide evidence from an ancient Hebrew
source that this word refers only to the one specific day of the month that
corresponds to the astronomically calculated hour when the moon is fullest.
Samie:
If the
Bible can't convince you, why would extrabiblical sources can?
Ron:
The roots
of this word indicate that it probably refers instead to the period of several
days when the moon is plump or brightly illuminated in the
Samie:
Ps 81:3
says the feast instituted in
Ron:
night sky.
I have seen no evidence presented that "kese" refers only to the day
of the astronomically calculated full moon.
Samie:
How many
days is Nisan 14th at evening? More than one?
Ron:
You are
anachronistically applying your modern definition of the astronomically calculated
"full moon" to the Scriptures that were written in a much earlier
era.
Samie:
Aren't you
preposterously wanting to relegate God's design of the moon and its phases to
be NOT the same now as it was before? The average lunar cycle had already been
established, my brother. This is why moon phases can be determined precisely
forward or backward in time. Now if you think it can't be done, then go ahead,
prove it wrong.
Gerhard:
The
trouble for you is just that the Bible works like you describe here, but does
not start with the full moon, but with the new moon, and determines the full
moon from the new moon’s occurrence and not vice versa. Sorry for you, Samie!
Samie:
Again,
Tuesday March 27, 31 AD was full moon. It was on that nighttime that the Lord ate
Passover with His disciples.
GE:
Qouting Samie:
<<<Ps 81:3 says the feast instituted in
Samie, you
have been shown to be the blind follower of the pro-Roman Catholic Easter
activists. 'Full moon' does not EXIST in the entire Bible, and you have been
SHOWN it.
Samie:
Sorry but
aren't you suffering from dementia, my brother? Here's a previous post of
yours: “Yes Samie, I do agree with you. And yes, it DID occur on a
full moon night”.
Can I
really take you seriously?
Again, Tuesday March 27, 31
AD was full moon. It was on that nighttime that the Lord ate Passover with His
disciples.
Gerhard:
Says Samie!
What if on another year (nearby or on the same
year for that matter) new moon occurred on a Wednesday night?!
You run
away from answering!
Why, you
claim to have that kind of information at your fingertips, but won't dare
present it here.
I saw
years ago on 'Her Majesty's Nautical Almanac' a Wednesday-night Thursday-daytime
first after vernal equinox new moon which gave a Thursday / Friday full moon.
Has NASA
improved on Her Majesty?
Watch
Samie revert to Jesus' year of birth to answer ...!
Ron:
The word "kese"
occurs only twice in the Bible. Once in Psalms, once in Proverbs, and never in
the Law. Please provide evidence from an ancient Hebrew source that this word
refers only to the one specific day of the month that corresponds to the
astronomically calculated hour when the moon is fullest.
Gerhard:
Ron, I
showed,
Where does
‘keseh’ fit ?
With
“moon” – ‘yahrehagh’?
“ordinances of the moon” Jeremiah 31:35 …
“Brightness of moon” – ‘yakar’ Job 31:26
“Brightness of moon” – ‘nogah’ Isaiah 60:19
… No!
With
“moon” – ‘yehragh’?
Deuteronomy 33:14
Isaiah 60:20 “the moon shall not withdraw /
wane”
… No!
With
“moon” – ‘levahnah’?
Canticles 6:10 “fair as the moon”.
Isaiah 24:23 “moon confounded”
Isaiah 30:26 “light of the moon as the light
of the sun”
… No!
With
‘chohdesh’ – “month” 220 times—with “NEW moon” 20 times?
… YES!
‘Chohdesh’
is used with ‘keseh’ - “time appointed” - ONCE: in Psalm 81:3, “Blow the
trumpet in the moon / NEW moon / (beginning of) month - 'chodesh';
“in the appointed time / festival of the NEW
moon - 'keseh';
“on our solemn feast of FIRST / NEW moon -‘chaq’;
“day” - 'yom'.
Where does
‘keseh’ fit in texts with words for the
“moon”? In any ‘full’ moon text or context?
… NO!
ONLY in
the context and content of texts which use the word and concept of the NEW
moon!
Ron:
The roots of this word
indicate that it probably refers instead to the period of several days when the
moon is plump or brightly illuminated in the night sky.
Gerhard:
Ron, I
have also shown the probable <roots> [etymology] of the word ‘keseh’,
‘KESEH’
Young’s
Analytical Concordance: ‘time appointed’
Look at ‘chodesh’ – “moon”; ‘chadash’ - “new”;
‘chad’ – “sharp” / “cleft”; ‘chaq’ – “feast” /
“solemn feast” / “first”.
The ‘ch’
// ‘k’ and ‘o’ // ‘a’ > ‘e’, plus ‘kese’ - ‘to appoint’, to form ‘keseh’ -
“appointed feast”.
“Appointed
feast” of the ‘sharp’ / ‘new’ / ‘first sliver’-“moon” [as seen through the
‘cleft’ or ‘portals of the
heavens’].
Young’s
Analytical Concordance adds: “see ‘seh’”
‘Seh’ -
“lamb” / “sheep” to form ‘keseh’ : “time appointed” for ‘keseb’ - “sheep” /
“lamb” to be offered FOR THE NEW MOON’S FEAST.
For no
‘full’ moon-feast!
Now look
at your list of ‘translations’—they are all ‘modern’: which tells its own story
about their trustworthiness as far as Psalm 81 is concerned.
“Full
moon” is a FALSE and FAKED ‘translation’.
I do not hesitate to say WHY these modern
quasi-translations use <<full moon>> for NO reason whatsoever in
the Hebrew text. Their hoax surprises me not at all.
It is
because they want to create something out of the Scriptures to give Easter a
Christian face. So this full moon monster is only an icon or idol of the
heavenly no-gods they worship next to their chief object of superstitious
veneration, ‘The day of the lord Sun’, Sunday and Easter Sunday.
Note that
when the moon is <<plumb or
brightly illuminated>> OTHER words than 'kehseh' is used, and note
also that 'keseh' is used specifically in the context of the 'sliver' or
'sickle' of the moon's appearance in the sky.
Samie:
"kese" is Hebrew
for full moon, and that is the Hebrew word in Ps 81:3.
Gerhard:
‘kehseh’
[nor ‘kehsehg’] is <<the Hebrew
word for full moon>>. Nor does <<Ps 81:3>> speak of the full moon.
Samie
thinks if he just ignores and turns a blind eye to refutation, nobody else
would have noticed that he was utterly proven to be in error.
PKrause:
Most of
what Samie has to say, I'm in total disagreement, but as far as "Full
Moon" in the Bible, I do agree. Have you actually looked at a Hebrew
Bible?? Obviously not. Here is the Jewish Online Bible with commentary by the
Rabbi most Jews consider the greatest Rabbi. Psalms
81:4. Sound the shofar on the New Moon, on the appointed time for the day of
our festival.
and here
is his commentary of this verse:
on the New
Moon: When the
moon renews itself.
on the appointed time: The appointed day for it, and so (Prov. 7:20): “on
the appointed day…) he will come home”; to the appointed time that had been
fixed.
and I
shall fill it: According
to whatever you ask I will fill.
Gerhard:
PKrause,
the rabbi speaks of the _NEW_ moon.
... and ...
... a bag
of money is not the moon.
By the
way, the "goodman took a bag of money and is gone a long journey. The bag
had been full. The chances are the goodman would return with an empty bag the
story sounds to me ....
The rabbi
has it cart before the horse.
Proverbs 7
“19 My
husband is not at home. He parted on a long journey. He took a bag of money
[‘keseph’ 112 times; “silver” 286 times] with him”—, when the moon – like the
man’s bag – was like a “bag of silver”, ‘full’ or ‘filled’.
“He will
come home the very day when his silver will be FINISHED at the dark or new
moon” [‘kesehg’].
These
three words — ‘keseh’ in Psalm 81:3 , and ‘kesehg’ and ‘keseph’ in Proverbs
7:20 — are sounding much the same, but they by “a far journey”, are “apart” and
opposite.
‘Keseh’ in
Proverbs 7:20 as well as in Psalm 81:3 means the NEW moon and NOT the full
moon, no matter WHAT the best Jewish rabbis might have to say.
Christians
a priori will know better than they.
Gerhard:
Another
proof of what I am saying ……
Quote, Samie: <<<Sorry but aren't you
suffering from dementia, my brother? Here's a previous post of yours>>.
Rather
than let go of his inspiration, Samie will accuse a doubter of being insane.
Samie:
You just don't want to accept
what the Bible says because it goes against what you were taught and believe
in.
Gerhard:
No Samie,
You are the one who just don't want to accept what the Bible says because you
received revelations and inspirations and accept extra-biblical 'information'
above the Scriptures. The
Bible does not go against a full moon passover. IT IS NOT THE TRUE ISSUE! The true issue here, is, your
Wednesday crucifixion HOAX.
Samie:
Hoax?
Let's see:
1. Tuesday, March 27, 31 AD -
Full Moon. The Lord ate Passover with His disciples.
2. Was arrested that same
night.
3. Brought to Pilate when
morning came: Wednesday, March 28, 31 AD.
4. Was tried and then
crucified. He died at around 3 PM.
5. After 3 days and 3 nights,
He resurrected early Saturday morning, March 31, 31 AD.
Can you
show a similar chronology with any other set of dates starting from a Passover
full moon as Scriptures specify?
Gerhard:
YES, but
not <<a similar chronology>>!!
I can show
the SCRIPTURES' chronology WITHOUT depending on extra Biblical
<information> and at the same time not be against extra Biblical <information>.
I can do
it WITHIN the "THREE days" "appointed" the Passover of
Yahweh" and don't need FOUR days like you do.
I can do
it with DUE allocation of Jesus' "WHOLE-day BONE-day" of BURIAL
"according to the Scriptures" "concerning the pascha of the
Christ".
AND, I can
do it WITHOUT CORRUPTING "after three days" …
Samie:
Then show
it. What's taking you so long? Here's my proof of "after three days":
after 1 day from Wednesday =
Thursday
after 2 days from Wednesday = Friday
after 3 days from Wednesday = Saturday
Wednesday
crucifixion coupled with Saturday morning resurrection before sunrise passes
the test of "after three days". Where is your proof, please?
Gerhard:
Stunning <proof>!
I was busy telling you I can do it WITHOUT CORRUPTING THE Scriptures like
you must do to have a theory. The true <chronology> doesn’t need to CORRUPT
"on the First Day of the week"; it does not need to corrupt “risen”
or, “He appeared”.
Samie:
You don't
need to corrupt it. "First Day of the week" translation in Mark 16:9
is already corrupted.
Gerhard:
et cetera
et cetera
I can do
it, thank God, with ONLY THE SCRIPTURES.
Which I
did MANY times before, on clubadventist.com.
Samie:
Owww? You
did? Would you please do it again? I do not grow tired showing my proof again
and again, just like what I did above. Show your chronology with proof for
"3 days and 3 nights" and proof for "after 3 days".
Your
move...
So where
is that chronology? Show it, brother. Don't be shy.
The Savior
specified 3 days AND 3 nights NOT just "THREE days". Here's mine:
day 1 = daytime Wednesday
night 1 = nighttime after sunset Wednesday
day 2 = daytime Thursday
night 2 = nighttime after sunset Thursday
day 3 = daytime Friday
night 3 = nighttime after sunset Friday until before sunrise Saturday
Wednesday
crucifixion coupled with Saturday morning resurrection before sunrise passes
the test of "3 days & 3 nights" specification of our Lord.
Show the
proof of what you are claiming, brother. I have shown my proof.
I
understand why there are those who disagree with my position. My position
caught them by surprise, and not only that, it is SURPRISINGLY Biblically
correct. That's why all their objections were all adequately addressed via
Scriptures.
Gregory:
Nonsense.
Me thinks
someone spends way to much reading about religious conspiracies.....This thread
is mind boggling, for the wrong reasons!!
'Nonsense"
is correct!!
Gerhard:
Samie,
Blah blah blah ….
Let us not
loose perspective totally.
As far as
this thread used the Word of God the Scriptures, it is not <nonsense>.
Even as
far as this discussion used scientific extra Biblical 'help', it is still not
<nonsense>.
Samie, I
believe, refers to correct astrometric information.
That is
where the nonsense starts SINCE he APPLIES the scientific data on his OWN and
wrong and arbitrary PRESUPPOSED YEAR for Jesus' Last Passover DERIVED from his
OWN and wrong and arbitrary PRESUPPOSED YEAR for Jesus' BIRTH.
Samie will
not consider ANY OTHER YEAR FOR JESUS' BIRTH because another year may not fit his
preconceived idea of a FOUR days Last Passover and a WEDNESDAY Abib 14.
THAT is
where ALL Samie's NONSENSE originates from!
Samie:
Now this
is really NONSENSE, Bro Gerhard. The issue is year of Jesus' death, NOT birth.
And please don't put your own words into another's mouth.
Proof that
His death was in 31 AD:
1. He was
baptized in 28 AD, 15th year of Tiberius as emperor (Luke 3:1,22,23), whose
reign started in 14 AD.
2. There
were 3 Passovers recorded after His baptism. The first two were those referred
to in John 2: 13, 23 & John 6:4. The 3rd is the one where He ate Passover
with His disciples on the night He was arrested.
3. The
first recorded Passover could not possibly be in 28 AD, the year He was
baptized. Why? Because after His baptism, he spent 40 days and 40 nights
fasting. His first miracle after baptism was done at
4. The
next Passover would then be in 30 AD, and the last one in 31 AD.
5. The
Lord could not have been crucified in 30 AD because that will only be the 2nd
Passover, and the Bible specifies THREE.
Therefore,
the Lord was crucified in 31 AD.
In 31 AD,
the first full moon AFTER the vernal equinox was on Tuesday March 27. The Bible
specifies that Passover is a full moon feast (Num 9;2, 3: Ps 81:3). The Lord
through Whom God created the worlds (Heb 1:2), including the moon, could NEVER
lose track of the lunar phases. He kept Passover on a full moon night and thus
acted IN ACCORDANCE with law He said He came to fulfill. He was therefore
crucified on Wednesday, March 28, 31 AD. After 3 days & 3 nights, He
resurrected on "proi prote sabbatou" or "early morning of the
chief Sabbath", Saturday, as the Greek Scriptures specify in Mark 16:9.
The 2nd
full moon AFTER the vernal equinox in 31 AD
was on Wednesday,
April 25. If He was crucified Friday April 27, then the Savior would have eaten
Passover on the night following sunset of April 26, Thursday, a day AFTER the
full moon, and He would NOT have acted in accordance with the law. Moreover,
there are only 2 days and 2 nights from a Friday crucifixion and early Sunday
morning resurrection. The Savior specified 3 days and 3 nights (Matt 12:40).
Between
March 28, 31 AD and April 27, 31 AD, the Biblical specifications point us to
March 28, 31 AD as the crucifixion date of our Lord.
Objectors
to this Biblically based position still call this NONSENSE.
Gregory:
You should know better than to suggest that
I suggest that Scripture is nonsense.
Here is what is nonsense:
Quote: That's why all their objections were
all adequately addressed via Scriptures.
It is the idea that you have adequately
addressed the issues.
Gerhard:
Samie, you
are HAUNTED by your dreams of Divine Inspiration. That is the ONLY reason why
you cannot admit plain common human MISTAKE!
Last Week / ‘Holy Week’
Sabbath
"Six days before passover Feast
Days" John 12:1 (… begin on Friday)
(Palm Sunday)
Five days before "Feast Days" John
12:12
(Monday)
Four days before "Feast Days" (…
begin on Friday)
Mark 11:12 Matthew 21:18 Mark 11:15 Luke
19:45-48 Mark 11:19
(Tuesday)
THREE days before "Feast Days" (…
begin on Friday)
Mark 11:20,21,27 Matthew 22:23 Luke 20:1-8
Mark 13:1,3
= Matthew 26:2 "after TWO days (Wednesday
Thursday) is Passover
= “Son of Man CRUCIFIED" (… on Thursday)
(Wednesday)
TWO days before "Feast Days"
Luke 21:38 Matthew 26:3
= Mark 14:1-3 "after TWO days (Thursday
Friday) is Feast
= “Days of UNLEAVENED Bread" (… begin on
Friday)
(Thursday—Wednesday night and Thursday day,
the Fifth Day)
One day before "Feast Days" (… begin
on Friday)
= “BEFORE the Feast” John 13:1
= “PREPARATION of the Passover” John 19:14
= “NOT ON, the Feast” Mark 14:2
= “WHEN they KILLED the passover…
= “WHEN they REMOVED leaven”
= Mark 14:12 Matthew 26:17 Luke 22:7 Exodus
12:15a
= Abib 14 (Thursday Abib 14)
(Friday)
“The Feast of Unleavened Bread” Exodus 12:15b
= “The Preparation …
= “… which is the Foresabbath …
= “… for THAT DAY WAS great day sabbath” of
passover.
1A) HERE BEGINS the NIGHT and the FIRST of the
“three days”, “according to the Scriptures” the passover–Scriptures :–
wherein Jesus ENTERED IN in “the Kingdom of my
Father” (Jesus’ Jonah’s descent to hell) :–
Mk14:12/17; Mt26:17/20; Lk22:7/14; Jn13:1.
1B) HERE BEGINS the MORNING of the FIRST of
the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
in which Jesus was delivered and crucified :–
Mk15:1/Mt27:1/Lk23:1/Jn19:14
1C) HERE is the LATE NOON AND MID–AFTERNOON of
the FIRST of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the
passover–Scriptures :–
when Jesus DIED and was deserted by all :–
Mk15:37–41; Mk27:50–56; Lk23:44–49; Jn19:28–30
“The Feast of Unleavened Bread” Exodus 12:15b
= “The Preparation …
= “… which is the Foresabbath …
= “… for THAT DAY WAS great day sabbath” of
passover.
= FRIDAY!
= Abib 15, Thursday night and Friday day =
Sixth Day ....
2A) HERE BEGINS the SECOND of the “three
days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
the day whereon Joseph WOULD BURY the body of
Jesus :–
Mk15:42/Mt27:57, Lk23:50–51, Jn19:31/38.
2B) HERE is the NIGHT of the SECOND of the
“three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
wherein Joseph begged the body, and according
to the law of the Jews – the passover’s law – undertook and prepared to bury
Jesus:–
“the first night” unleavened bread was eaten
John 19:39
Mk15:43–46a; Mt27:58–59; Lk23:52–53a;
Jn19:31b–40
2C) HERE is the LATE NOON AND MID–AFTERNOON of
the SECOND of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the
passover–Scriptures :–
when Joseph and Nicodemus had laid the body
and had closed the tomb; and men and women left for home :–
Mk15:46b–47; Mk27:60–61; Lk23:53b–56a;
JN19:41–42
“THE THIRD DAY”
“The day after the sabbath” OF THE PASSOVER
Leviticus 23:11,15
= Abib 16, Friday night and Saturday day =
Seventh Day Sabbath....
3A) HERE BEGINS the THIRD of the “three days”,
“according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
THAT JESUS WOULD RISE FROM THE DEAD ON :–
Lk23:56b
3B) HERE is the MORNING of the THIRD of the
“three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
Pilate ordered a guard “for the third day” :– Mt27:62–66
3C) HERE is “IN the Sabbath’s Fullness
MID–AFTERNOON” of the THIRD of the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures”
– the passover–Scriptures :–
First Sheaf Wave Offering Before the LORD :–
Mt28:1–4.
__________________________________________________
Abib 17, Saturday night and Sunday day = First
Day ....
4A) HERE begins the day AFTER the “three days”
(fourth day of the passover season) :–
that Jesus WOULD APPEAR on :–
Mk16:1, “When the Sabbath was past ..... they
BOUGHT ....”
4B) HERE is the EVENING of this day,
Jn20:1–10 Mary sees the DOOR STONE was away
from the tomb (discovers tomb has been OPENED);
4C) HERE is the NIGHT of this day,
Lk24:1–10 “DEEP(EST) DARKNESS” ––– “women with
their spices” and ointments go to salve the body; “they found Him NOT”
(discover tomb is EMPTY);
Mk16:2–8 “very early (before) SUN’S RISING”
––– women’s return–visit to ascertain; “they fled terrified and told NO ONE”.
4D) Here is sunrise (‘Sunday’ morning),
Jn20:11f, Mk16:9 “Mary had had stood behind”
.... saw the gardener (sunrise); “Risen, early (sunrise) on the First Day, Jesus
first APPEARED to Mary ....”
Mt28:5–10 “The angel explained to the (other)
women (Mt28:1–4) .... As they went to tell .... Jesus met them” (after
sunrise). Mt28:11–15 Guard to
high priests.
http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/694303/16.html
07 05 14
‘Full
Moon in the Bible’
by Christiaan Gerhardus Ebersöhn
http://www.biblestudents.co.za
http://www.thelordsday.wordpress.com