9 December 2008
First Sheaf Wave Offering On ‘the regular Sabbath’
JH:
The verses regarding “firstfruits” and the 'wave
sheaf' (Lev. 23:9-12) merely say “the regular Sabbath.” I contend that “the
regular Sabbath” means exactly that, and that would include any and/or all
'Sabbaths.' I further contend, that this is the reason that neither “firstfruits”
nor “Pentecost” have specific calendar dates assigned to them, in
Scripture, because they can and do move, if necessary [roughly once in anywhere
from some 3-10 years, or so, as the Hebrew calendar adds a “make-up” month
(called 2nd Abib), when necessary, to keep the religious calendar, and/or lunar
calendar, more or less accurately with the 'solar' calendar], due to that exact
provision in Scripture (so that they do not fall on a Sabbath, while
simultaneously occurring “after the Sabbath”), and since 'Pentecost' is exactly
50 days after “firstfruits” (Lev. 23:16).
Every other 'feast day' listed in Lev. 23 is
'calendar specific', with –
“Passover” being the 14th day of the first
month (23:5);
“Feast of Unleavened bread” being the 15th
day of the same month (23:6);
“Trumpets” being the 1st day, seventh
month (23:24);
“Day of Atonement” being the 10th day of
the seventh month (23:26); and
“Feast of Tabernacles” on the 15th day of the
seventh month (23:33).
It goes without saying that the “regular Sabbath”
was every 7th day (Lev. 23:3).... The reason I said “regular weekly
Sabbath” is based on the NT, where the words “first day of the week” refer to
obviously and logically the day after the regular weekly Sabbath.
....
....
GE:
My method:-
I have worked with my hands for the best part of my life.
[while talking, rolling up an electric cable extension]
Some things took a little longer to learn how, than others;
[all the time rolling up the cable, throwing it down, picking up one end, starting over]
Like rolling up an extension like this.
[showing cable, rolling it up]
I have shown others how to roll up an extension;
[repeating the procedure]
and have found that they learned with great difficulty how to roll up a cable the right way.
[going on rolling up the cable]
The easiest way by the looks of it, will soon show it was the wrong way, and must eventually end up in this:-
[showing a crow’s nest of entangled electric extension cable]
and this:-
[exhibiting another, ruined, knotted and patched up, no longer usable cable]
Now as I said, I was a manual labourer almost all my life, and I soon had to learn the right method for rolling up an electric extension cable, like I am doing now.
[all the time rolling up another, intact electric cable extension]
You know, I have been using this cable for more than twenty years, and look! it’s virtually like new!
What made the difference? These cables are identical – or originally were, identical.
[showing three cables]
Then why are these two so messed up?
[showing the two entangled cables]
I got this one
[showing the ruined cable]
from my friend; he threw it away. I am throwing it away again!
[throwing ruined cable away; goes to pick it up again]
It is not due to a difference in quality or make or materials used, that brought it to the condition it is in. No, it is the way it was handled, and let me tell you, it’s not how it was handled on the ground; it’s how it was rolled up – how it was regularly collected into a manageable unit for transporting or storage for further use – that caused its utter ruin! The method! Only the method.
You see, if you roll up a cable or twine or whatever, in a circle, like this,
[illustrating on the good cable]
it eventually must knot and clot up completely, and make several and with itself intertwined strands and curly plaits, like this,
[illustrating with the bad cable]
that rub and scour and scratch and catch against every unthinkable obstacles.
The method made the difference; the method either preserved, or destroyed, the cable.
So is it while one works with the Word of God. We all the time are handling the pure and good Word; there’s nothing wrong with our materials used. But when we bring it all together, and persistingly collect, store, and re-use and recollect our knowledge of the Word of God in the easiest same old wrong way – with the wrong method – the result will be no different from this cable!
[showing the ruined cable once more]
The way, the method, we bring together, conclude from, store, and re-distribute the Word of God: there, lies our problem!
We saw what the wrong method is; we saw it was to argue in a circle. Just that; it was to argue in a circle.
It’s no different with ‘theology’. We saw the result arguing and reasoning and concluding – bringing together into one – the circular method, gave. We shall come back to this principle of thinking or method of using God’s Word, the circular method, again, further on in our study. How common its use and how difficult its correction is, we will see.
GE:
With emphasis of JH cancelled, and emphasis and
interjections herewith, those of GE, in order to get the emphasis on JH’s true ‘argument(s)’....
JH, “The verses regarding “firstfruits”
and the 'wave sheaf' (Lev. 23:9-12) merely
say “the regular Sabbath.” I contend that “the regular Sabbath” means exactly
that, and that [the
word, ‘Sabbath’,] would include [or rather, ‘would mean’,] any and/or all 'Sabbaths.' I further contend, that this, is
the reason that neither “firstfruits” nor “Pentecost” have specific
calendar dates assigned to them, in Scripture,
because they can and do move,
if necessary [roughly once in anywhere from some 3-10 years, or so, as the
Hebrew calendar adds a “make-up” month (called 2nd Abib), when necessary, to
keep the religious calendar, and/or lunar calendar, more or less accurately
with the 'solar' calendar], due to that
exact provision in Scripture (so that they do not fall on a Sabbath, while simultaneously occurring “after the Sabbath”),
and since 'Pentecost' is exactly 50 days after “firstfruits” (Lev. 23:16).”
ES:
Actually,
only “first-fruits” technically “moved” (and that by only one day), in order to
be “after the Sabbath” when the “normal” date would be 16 Nisan, to 17 Nisan,
when 16 Nisan would occur “on the Sabbath”, obviously meaning the regular
weekly Sabbath, since there is no 'hint' of 16 Nisan (or 17 Nisan) actually
being declared a Sabbath. So when “first-fruit” moved by that one day, so did
Pentecost (also by one day), for Pentecost was fixed at 50 days, in relation to
the offering of the wave-sheath.
There was no Scriptural prohibition, that Pentecost
could not fall “on the sabbath” that I can find in Scripture, and in fact, when
“first-fruits” normally 16 Nisan, would fall one the sixth day of the week,
then Pentecost would have to occur “on the Sabbath” exactly 50 days later than “first-fruits.”
GE:
Emphasis herewith, that of GE, in order to get to JH’s true ‘argument(s)’....
JH, “Actually, only “first-fruits”
technically “moved” (and that by
only one day), in order to be “after the
Sabbath” when the “normal” date would be 16 Nisan, to 17 Nisan, when
16 Nisan would occur “on the Sabbath”, obviously meaning the regular weekly
Sabbath, since there is no 'hint' of 16
Nisan (or 17 Nisan) actually being declared
a Sabbath. So when “first-fruit”
moved by that one day, so did
Pentecost (also by one day), for Pentecost was fixed at 50 days, in relation to the offering of the wave-sheath.
There was no
Scriptural prohibition, that Pentecost could not fall “on the sabbath”
that I can find in Scripture, and in fact, when “first-fruits” normally 16 Nisan, would fall one the
sixth day of the week, then Pentecost would have to occur “on the Sabbath”
exactly 50 days later than “first-fruits.”“
JH:
And as to how Jesus could partake of the Passover
meal (thus fulfilling Scripture) and yet be crucified (as Our Passover) on the
same Jewish day (again fulfilling the Scripture), I have already made multiple
posts, regarding the fulfilling of the phrase, found in the OT of “between the
evenings,” and how that was when the Passover Lamb was to be slain, and the
fact that that phrase did not even seem to have any import attached to it,
until our Lord was in fact, 'killed' on 14 Nisan (or Abib), just as the
Scripture demands. For over 1500 years, this merely seemed to be an oddity of
wording, to all except the LORD, who gave this prophetic command.
The phrase, which I had previously commented on of “between
the evenings” is a literal rendering of the Hebrew in some of the passages in
Leviticus and other Pentateuch books, according to what I have seen. Is that
incorrect? If not, apart from an oddity of the phrasing, what import was ever
[been] given to this prior to the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus?
GE:
Emphasis GE, in order to get to JH’s true ‘argument(s)’....
JH, “14 Nisan (or 14 Abib) is “Passover”,
and which is also referred to in the NT as “the
Preparation” which, although referred
to as a 'feast day' in Leviticus, is not said specifically to be
a Sabbath nor an holy Convocation, unlike the Feast day of Unleavened Bread,
Nisan 15, which is a Sabbath, and an holy convocation, according to Leviticus
23.”
JH:
And no, I do not believe or teach that the Passover
meal took place on “the evening of 'our' Thursday night,” nor have I said this
for some 40 years. (I did ignorantly say, about that time, that the Crucifixion
was on Wednesday for a year or so, until I studied the Scripture a bit more
closely, and realized that this took place on Thursday, by our reckoning of
time.) Nor have I even remotely agreed that the Lord was crucified on Friday,
by our reckoning, for more than 40 years, either. 14 Nisan (or 14 Abib) is “Passover”,
and which is also referred to in the NT as “the Preparation” which, although
referred to as a 'feast day' in Leviticus, is not said specifically to be a
Sabbath nor an holy Convocation, unlike the Feast day of Unleavened Bread,
Nisan 15, which is a Sabbath, and an holy convocation,
according to Leviticus 23.
I believe you to be attempting, albeit unwittingly,
to confute and combine, the Passover meal that was eaten in haste, on 14
Abib/Nisan, as per Exodus, with the meal of the Feast of Unleavened Bread,
which all the OT places on 15 Nisan. ....Sorry, Gerhard Ebersöhn, I'm the one
'inside the line' since “fifteenth day” (of any month) is never even mentioned
in Scripture, until the giving of the Law of the feast days found in Lev. 23.
That phrase is not to be found in any of the three books that are commonly
considered to precede Leviticus, namely Job, as well as (logically) Genesis and
Exodus. Hence, there would be no reason to mention the specific Feast Day of “Unleavened
Bread” on 15 Abib/Nisan prior to this. Merely read Lev. 23, (as well as other
places that mention “fifteenth”) .... Did you happen to notice that neither “Passover”
nor “first-fruits” are said to be either “Sabbaths” or an “holy convocation”,
here? And in fact, the 'wave sheaf' was to be waved specifically, on the
regular Sabbath!
GE:
Emphasis GE, in order to get to JH’s true ‘argument(s)’....
JH, “I believe you to be
attempting, albeit unwittingly, to confute and
combine, the Passover
meal that was eaten in haste, on 14 Abib/Nisan, as per Exodus, with the meal of the Feast of
Unleavened Bread, which all the OT places on 15 Nisan. ....Sorry,
Gerhard Ebersöhn, I'm the one 'inside the line' since “fifteenth day” (of any
month) is never even mentioned in Scripture, until
the giving of the Law of the feast days found in Lev. 23. That
phrase is not to be found in any of the
three books that are commonly considered to precede Leviticus, namely Job, as
well as (logically) Genesis and Exodus. Hence,
there would be no reason to mention the
specific Feast Day of “Unleavened Bread” on 15 Abib/Nisan prior
to this. Merely read Lev. 23, (as well as other places that mention “fifteenth”)
.... Did you happen to notice that neither “Passover” nor “first-fruits” are
said to be either “Sabbaths” or an “holy convocation”, here? And in fact, the
'wave sheaf' was to be waved specifically, on the regular Sabbath!”
Hidden (and only)
design of ES
That First Sheaf (and Pentecost) ‘can and do move due to exact provision in Scripture so that they do not fall on a Sabbath while simultaneously occurring ‘after the Sabbath’’, is a completely false and fantastical supposition, designed and defined to prevent First Sheaf Wave Offering to fall on its in its old dispensation and ministration “in its season”, “proclaimed” day and date of Nisan 16, and instead to force it to ‘move’ on— onto the next day of the month after “the day after the Sabbath”— after the ‘sabbath’ of the passover dealt with in the relevant Scriptures, Lv23:11,15,16; and to not allow First Sheaf Wave Offering, on, and with, and as, the day of its appointment and proclamation –Nisan 16– to ‘move’ or ‘float’ across the days of the week onto whichever day of the week its ‘seasonal’-appointment and designation inevitably would bring it.
Therefore, what will JH’s method be? Not having said nothing concerning ‘between the evenings’ (see further on referred to), but....
1) his circular arguing!
His entire circular
expostulation JH builds upon
2) his misrepresentation of the single
Scripture of “the regular Sabbath” in Leviticus 23:11, 15, and 16, and,
3) his misconception of separate
meals of ‘passover’ and ‘unleavened bread’ on separate days, Nisan 14, and, 15. (Refer study, ‘Passover Lamb and Unleavened bread the Same
Meal’.)
4) his ‘obvious’, illusion,
First Sheaf Wave Offering ‘moved’, not just
across the week-days, but, “technically.... by only one day” across the days or dates of the month— “when the “normal” date would
be 16 Nisan, to 17 Nisan,
when 16 Nisan would occur “on the Sabbath”, obviously meaning the regular
weekly Sabbath”— obviously and conspicuously a
re-appearance of his circular
argumentation.
Refer to our previous discussion, ‘Passover Lamb and Unleavened Bread the Same Meal’, where I showed, that by the following things, the implication
was sacrifice and unleavened bread were eaten together and as one and the
same meal,
1) Remove
leaven on Abib 14, ‘first day’
2) Kill
passover on Abib 14 during day
3a) Exodus:- Eat on the fourteenth day
3b) Later Law:- Eat
on the fifteenth day, “Late”
4a) Exodus:- Departed
on the fourteenth day
4b) Later Law:- Departed on the fifteenth day
5a) Lamb Roasted and Eaten on Abib 15
5b) Lamb and Unleavened Bread Eaten Together on Abib 15
That wich I at first thought was an irrelevancy.
GE:
You claimed 'Scriptures’ for
'sabbath' in Lv for the weekly Sabbath. May
we please see how that is possible or if possible.
JH, “No,
I did not claim this, exactly, although some of the references in Lev. 23
obviously refer to the regular weekly Sabbath, namely Lev. 23: 3, 15b, & 16.”
GE:
But that’s what I have said you do!
Therefore I must understand your main (and only) argument completely
relies on this statement of yours, and – allegedly – on the Scriptures herein
referred to! But to “refer
to the regular weekly Sabbath” (and that, “obviously”) implies ‘irregular’ or sabbaths determined by or “in their
season”, and contradicts and nullifies, “I contend that “the regular Sabbath” means exactly that, and that would include any and/or all 'Sabbaths.'” (Emphasis GE)
We should have
ended debating right now!
JH, “....to keep the religious calendar, and/or lunar calendar, more or
less accurately with the 'solar' calendar....”
GE:
We could agree.... this is ‘technical’. I maintain – which is what I believe the Old Testament ‘ministration’ maintained – that every winter solstice was determined scientifically: with the ‘exact’ science of ‘astrometrics’ or astronomical calculation. The Jews had the knowledge and skill, I believe. So every year, they calculated the solstice exactly, and next calculated the first new moon (without needing to observe it). But because their months were only 30 days long, they got behind on the solar year, and could have adjusted their ‘religious calendar’ the way you proposed. I have no problem with that; and besides cannot present a better proposal. Whether not your way or your way, fact remains, the dating of the days and months and the week-cycle were independent of one another. And thereto according Nisan 15 passover-‘sabbath’ could fall and indeed did fall on any day of the week— and so could First Sheaf Wave Offering “on the day after the sabbath” Nisan 16! History and Jewish tradition agree and confirm; there is no doubt about it.
JH several times refers to his discovery of the meaning of ‘between the evenings’ that according to him for centuries (of its dubious interpretations) have lied hidden. Because this is not the first time I am confronted by JH with his findings with regard to the expression ‘between the evenings’, I have often thought, first, what actually, is, JH’s explanation for the expression “between the evenings”? (I have not seen where once he actually explained his explanation.) And also, what relevance, could his discovery have had on this subject of enquiry, First Sheaf Wave Offering when on ‘the regular Sabbath’ (and other questions)? I could not though, find the need to further inquire after his explanations. I could not see what difference any new meaning might have made to anyone’s understanding of this phrase or of the issue under discussion. So, here, right now, I find no need for the revelation of any not yet known meanings of ‘between the evenings’ that could not have made a difference to the present study or its outcome in any case or way. Only advantage JH’s references to all this could have had, would have been to himself and the hopelessness of his case. He might have thought to use it as a detraction from his real weak spot, like a bird would pretend to be injured to draw attention away from its nest.
So far, what I at first said.
Not so accommodating what I now think, after afterthought!
The dating of the days and months and the week-cycle were independent
of one another— that I have said and held always. And thereto according, Nisan
15 passover-‘sabbath’ could fall and indeed did fall on any day of the week—
that I have said and held always. So did First Sheaf Wave Offering always, without
exception, fall on any day of the week, on the same day and date, “in the
sixteenth day of the First Month” — that I have said and held always.
“In the sixteenth day of
the First Month they accomplished end”;
“In the sixteenth day of
the First Month.... they made reconciliation
with blood upon the altar.... to make an atonement”;
“In the sixteenth day of
the First Month.... the Song of the LORD began with trumpets.... and
“In the sixteenth day of
the First Month.... all the congregation worshipped.... All that were present
bowed themselves”.
2Chron29:17c,24,27,29— because
it was First Sheaf Wave Offering
Before the LORD in His Presence “in the sixteenth day of the First Month”. It indeed was the Sabbath Day! Cf. Ez46:1,8, 2Chron29:25,20; 23:20b. “Made an end “, 17c – ‘kalah’,
in Gn2:1,2, ‘finished’; See also 29:28, correlation between trumpets and
Sabbaths, 1/1, p21; 26; 103, 223; 2, p224, 3/1, p28-34; 47, 102, 167, 234.
ES, “I
further contend, that this is the reason that neither “firstfruits” nor “Pentecost”
have specific calendar dates assigned to them, in Scripture, because they can
and do move, if necessary [roughly once in anywhere from some 3-10 years, or
so, as the Hebrew calendar adds a “make-up” month (called 2nd Abib), when
necessary, to keep the religious calendar, and/or lunar calendar, more or less
accurately with the 'solar' calendar], due to that exact provision in Scripture
(so that they do not fall on a Sabbath, while simultaneously occurring “after
the Sabbath”), and since 'Pentecost' is exactly 50 days after “firstfruits”
(Lev. 23:16).
Every other 'feast day' listed in Lev. 23 is
'calendar specific', with....”
GE:
No! as the “proclaimed” year every year might have started on another day of the week (and also could have started for more than one year in succession on the same day of the week), so the first day of the First Month Abib every year might have started on another day of the week (and also might have started for more than one year in succession on the same day of the week).
Never had the beginning of the year been fixed for more than one year. Therefore,
JH, “....this is the reason that
neither “firstfruits” nor “Pentecost” have specific calendar
dates assigned to them, in Scripture, because they can and do move.... Every
other 'feast day' (than First Sheaf Wave Offering-day) listed in Lev. 23 is 'calendar
specific'...”, “to keep the
religious calendar, and/or lunar calendar, more or less accurately with the
'solar' calendar....”— which is
ostentatiously incorrect.
First, Because
of “in its season”:-
“Every 'feast day'... listed in Lev. 23... and
that would include any and/or all...” of “every 'feast day'” –
Pentecost and First Sheaf ‘included’ – “listed in Lev. 23— except the Seventh Day Sabbath which is “listed” in verse
3 and cannot nor ever does ‘move’— “is 'calendar specific'... because they” ....can and must ‘move’, because
they can and must day after day, month by month, ‘move’ after the first day of the First Month! Only the Seventh Day Sabbath “listed in Lev. 23” in verse 3, cannot nor ever does move!
Next, because
of “day of the month”:-
“Every 'feast day'... listed in Lev. 23... and
that would include any and/or all...” of “every 'feast day'“ –
Pentecost and First Sheaf ‘included’ – “listed in Lev. 23— except the Seventh Day Sabbath which is “listed” in verse
3 and cannot nor ever does ‘move’— “is 'calendar specific'... because they” ....can and must ‘move’, because
they can and must day after day,
month by month, ‘move’ after
the first day of the First Month:- over
the days of the week! Only the Seventh
Day Sabbath “listed in Lev. 23” in verse 3, cannot or ever does move onto
another day of the week!
“Every 'feast day'... listed in Lev. 23... and that would include
any and/or all...” of “every 'feast day'” –
Pentecost and First Sheaf ‘included’ – “listed in Lev. 23— are always “calendar
specific” and always can and do
move across the days of the week. No one ‘calendar
specific’ ‘feast’
or ‘sabbath-of-feast’ ever skipped “one day”!
There is a meaningful difference for a dated and proclaimed event – First Sheaf
Wave Offering – to ‘move’ between
one day of the week and another day of the week, and to skip or pass over its ‘calendar specific’, dated, announced, proclaimed and
observed day and date of the month, to
land on the day and date next to its own.
Three, Because of “ye shall proclaim”:-
“Every 'feast day'... listed in Lev. 23... and
that would include any and/or all...” of “every 'feast day'“ –
Pentecost and First Sheaf ‘included’ – “listed in Lev. 23— except the Seventh Day Sabbath which is “listed” in verse
3 and cannot nor ever does ‘move’— “is 'calendar specific'... because they” ....can and must ‘move’, because
they can and must — day after day,
month by month, year after year — ‘move’ according to the determination or
‘fixing’ “which ye shall proclaim”
“in / by their seasons” by the
calculation of solstice and the first new moon after for the first day of the
First Month— “Observe the
(beginning of) the month of Abib!”
Only the Seventh
Day Sabbath “listed in Lev. 23” in verse 3, cannot nor ever is
1)
‘fixed’ or ‘moved’ or ‘determined’ or ‘calculated’/’observed’,
2)
by “you”,
3)
“by its season”.
Passover’s ‘sabbath’ is Not the Sabbath of the Fourth Commandment
Therefore, all and “every”, ‘feast day' listed in Lev. 23, but only from verse 4 on, is 'calendar specific', with –
Passover being the
14th day of the first month (23:5);
Feast of
Unleavened Bread being the 15th day
of the same month (23:6) being the
‘normal’ sabbath of the passover; and
First Sheaf Wave Offering in verses 11,15,16 “proclaimed”
“the day after the sabbath” and therefore 16th day of the same month, first of fifty days (seven weeks plus one day) counted from Abib 16 inclusive to ....
First
Loaves Wave Offering
as
part and whole of ‘passover’ as such.
That is what it means to be consistent, not, fifty plus, “only that one day” after First Sheaf Wave Offering of yours, JH!
And I agree with you— mark with you, your words, “It goes without saying that the “regular Sabbath” was every 7th
day (Lev. 23:3)”— in contradistinction to the ‘sabbath’ implied in Lv23:11,15,16!
Here lies the real difference
between us. I say it is the
‘sabbath’ of the Passover; you say
it’s the weekly Sabbath in these
verses, 4 to 16.
One
Meal
Passover-sacrifice and Unleavened Bread being one meal (see also Ezra 6:19-22, 2Chron36:16-17, “....kept the passover at that (same) time and / with the Feast of Unleavened Bread”. It follows it was the one day on which sacrifice and Bread were eaten with the same meal. Jesus and the disciples did not eat two meals, and you – here – were not able to explain how you got there were two meals, Unleavened Bread only “since Leviticus 23”— whatever you mean by that, presumably – as I understand you here— after sunset in the evening-beginning of Nisan 15; and passover lamb since Exodus— whatever you mean by that, after sunset in the evening-beginning of Nisan 14 the night before.
Josua 5 records the
end of the exodus. Both “Passover” and “first-fruits” were observed, then! The sacrifice on Abib 14; the meal
on Abib 15. You allege – as one must understand you – sacrifice before Nisan 14 so that the lamb could
be eaten at the beginning of Nisan 14 in its evening our Wednesday night— time-corresponding with the time the Last Supper
was eaten on our Wednesday night. Then after
‘passover’ Nisan 14, the Unleavened Bread was eaten in the night after, after sunset in the beginning of Nisan 15 the
Passover-sabbath, time-corresponding to our Thursday night— the beginning of
the Sixth Day so that
Passover-‘sabbath’— the very ‘sabbath’
referred to in Lv23:11,15,16, would have fallen on Friday, and not on “the regular
Sabbath”,
‘Saturday’! You must not only move
16 Nisan to 17 Nisan; you must also move 15 Nisan to 16 Nisan in order to get ‘the regular Sabbath’ – according to you – spoken of
in Lv23:11,15,16 onto Saturday “the regular Sabbath”, and so you won’t have to ‘move’ that “only one day”, but two different days!
Conclusion: There is no possibility passover sacrifice and
Unleavened Bread could be ‘confuted’ for having been eaten in two
meals on two different days, and
your theory actually confirms ‘my’
theory (in your words), “to
... combine the Passover meal with the meal of the Feast of Unleavened Bread”. They are not to be combined,
they were one combined meal already from
the very first passover-meal after the exodus. Josua 5:10-11.
Different
‘sabbaths’
JH makes it two different meals and one and the same Sabbath. The whole Bible makes it only one meal and two different ‘sabbaths’.
Seeing the same
source – Leviticus 23 – that mentions both
dates and both events of passover-sacrifice and passover-meal for the first
time on different dates (as you have
shown yourself), seeing the same
source also mentions the 'wave sheaf' to be offered specifically
“on the day after the sabbath”,
it is just consequential and consistent that the ‘sabbath’ referred back
to in immediate context of the annual feasts, should belong to those
feasts “proclaimed” “in their seasons” according to the ‘solar’
or ‘annual’ year implied, as also you yourself have explained— Nisan 15 (which
could or could not have occurred on “the regular Sabbath” or
‘Saturday’).
Leviticus 23 after verse 4 and to
verse 16 does not at all deal with the days of the week; it exclusively
deals with the ‘seasonal’ feasts and their, dates of month;
so that the day according to its date of First Sheaf Wave
Offering is as clearly distinguished ‘the sixteenth day of the
First Month’ as are those days in so many words dated “the fourteenth
day of the First Month” and “the fifteenth day of the First Month”.
It is pure fallacy First Sheaf did not adhere to its day and date
dated and “proclaimed” in Lv23:11,15,16 as being “the day after
the sabbath” of Nisan 15— namely, for anyone with eyes to see ‘the
sixteenth day of the First Month’.
Your whole thesis in my opinion, JH,
is untenable. You – wittingly, yes,
intentionally – discriminate ‘between’
one, and,
the same, thing, the passover’s meal, and, its date. (Jekyll and Hyde!)
SE, “....The verses regarding “firstfruits”
and the 'wave sheaf' (Lev. 23:9-12) merely say “the regular Sabbath.” I contend
that “the regular Sabbath” means exactly
that....”!
GE:
“The verses... say “the
regular Sabbath”...” for, “the
day after the sabbath”!— What mutilation of the words of
Scripture! A more blatant use of
circular reasoning of pretentious conclusion or “attempted 'theology' to support a particular
conclusion, since Scripture simply does not declare this that you have said”, one shall hardly find!
JH unfortunately went on to say too much; and one should
change the capital letter of his word, “Sabbath”, to a small letter, ‘sabbath’. It seems JH has not noticed that “fifteenth day” of the
first month Abib is in fact mentioned
in Scripture, in the giving of the Law of the feast days found in Lv23 from verse 4. That word, “sabbath”,
is
found in Leviticus for the very good
reason of the specific “Feast
Day of Unleavened Bread-sabbath-day”,
‘dated’, on 15 Abib/Nisan already at this point in time in the history of
the nation Israel, to know, in the exodus from Egypt, of which, Exodus gave account of but still dated,
Nisan 14!
Now the ‘mere’ fact the ‘feast’ of
this ‘declared’
/ “proclaimed” “sabbath”
on Abib 15, was based on ‘floating’
first-day-of-the-First-Month-Abib-1,
it follows this ‘sabbath-day’ – this
feast-sabbath, due to that
exact provision in Scripture, namely, “4These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy
convocations, which ye, shall proclaim:- in their, seasons”— this, “sabbath-day-feast” ‘in fact’ could, and ‘in
fact’ did – according to its
1) ‘proclamation / declaration’
2) by the People according to
3) its “season-”particular –
did in fact fall, on any day (including “the regular Sabbath day”, the Seventh Day Sabbath of the
LORD). It was a ‘sabbath’ that was not
“any
and/or all”,
or, “the regular”, “Sabbath of the LORD”. It was the passover’s sabbath. Stop.
In contrast with
this ‘sabbath’, “the
regular Sabbath day”
was determined, “declared”
/ “proclaimed”, by the LORD, “My Sabbaths”, “the Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD your God”. “God”— “The Mighty
One” who alone, created and for ever
determined the (‘regular’)
Sabbath without consideration of “seasons”,
“months” or “years” but, in
view of, “the Day of the Lord” – ‘Yom Yahweh’, the day of God, ‘speaking
in the Son’.
Can there be a clearer distinction
be made that with “sabbath” in Lv23:11,15,16, mention is not in the least made of “any and/or all 'Sabbaths'“ of the Seventh-Day-of-the-week-Sabbath
in particular, or, of “any and/or all” of the Seventh-Day-of-the-week-Sabbaths
in general!
Therefore, ‘the sabbath’ made mention of in Lv23:11,15,16, Nisan
15, could be any day including “the regular
Sabbath” when
incidentally from sunset to sunset the same day— and therefore, “the day after the sabbath” in and of Lv23:11,15,16, could
be any day of the week, including “the regular
Sabbath”.
Now by the time everyone
has arrived at and agreed
1) this “regular Sabbath”-”after-the-sabbath” of
Passover-Feast-Day-Nisan-15—
now by the time everyone
has arrived at and agreed
2) this “the regular
Sabbath” and “the sixteenth day of the First Month” coinciding once for all in Christ— which day and date both JH and GE are agreed upon was unchangeable
Nisan 16—
by the time everyone
has arrived at and agreed
3) this “regular Sabbath” being Nisan 16 and “regular Sabbath”-”after-the-sabbath” of
Passover-Feast-Day-Nisan-15—
now, JH throws out anchors and stops
the cart before it could arrive at the very day and occurrence distinguished
for the very day of First Sheaf Wave
Offering!
This only in eternity “regular Sabbath” then —no ‘sabbath’ “by its season”
but “the Sabbath of the LORD”— fell on
Nisan-16-”the-day-after” “the-sabbath”-of-Nisan-15
before. On this only in eternity “regular Sabbath” —no ‘sabbath’ “by its season” but “the Sabbath of the LORD”— occurred “First Sheaf Wave
Offering Before the LORD”. There was no reason on earth or in heaven that “First
Sheaf Wave Offering Before the LORD” would not coincide with and occur on
this “the Sabbath of the LORD” that was Nisan-16-”the-day-after” “the-sabbath”-of-Nisan-15 the day
before. Because it is Scripture! No reason on earth or in heaven, but all the
reason on earth and in heaven that “First Sheaf Wave Offering Before the
LORD” would be, and had been, ‘The Sabbath Day of the LORD your God’!
That the ‘seasonal-’ or ‘annual sabbath’ of passover Nisan
15 in the end turned out to be the very sabbath of passover before “the regular
Sabbath” of the
Fourth Commandment, was no accident, but had been so determined in the eternal
Council of the Almighty God, so that
“First Sheaf Wave Offering Before the LORD” would be, and indeed had
been, ‘The Sabbath Day of the LORD your God’ in this once for all
incidence of it in and through Jesus Christ and for the sake of Him in fulfilment of the Scriptures such as
Hebrews 4:4-5! There! Here! And then! all and every ‘old’ dispensation sabbaths
and feasts of “season” are being left behind and taken up anew in Christ
Jesus.
JH:
FTR, JH is not theologically opposed to any
particular day of the week, from the first day of the week, to the seventh day
of the week, as the day of the resurrection of our Lord. It is just that the
Biblical evidence seems to show these events, both in 'type' and actuality, as
occurring on the first day of the week, or the day “after the (weekly) Sabbath”
from what I am able to ascertain in Scripture.
GE:
Emphasis of JH cancelled, and emphasis herewith, that of
GE, in order to get to JH’s true ‘argument(s)’:-
JH, “ JH is not theologically
opposed to any particular day of the week, from the first day of the week, to
the seventh day of the week, as the day of the resurrection of our Lord. It is just that the Biblical evidence seems to show
these events, both in 'type' and actuality, as occurring
on the first day of the week, or the
day “after the (weekly) Sabbath” from what I am able to ascertain in Scripture”
....now, JH refuses point blank First Sheaf
Wave Offering should stay with
its ‘proclaimed’ (i.e., ‘legal’ by ‘proclamation’ or ‘declaration’
dated day Nisan 16, and insists First Sheaf Wave
Offering should move on, onto Nisan 17
and that, for absolutely no reason than that he is ‘theologically opposed’ to the Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD
being the day of First Sheaf Wave Offering Before the LORD, so that it must be – for no reason must be – the ‘Seventh Day Sabbath’
(or ‘regular
Sabbath’ that is not mentioned or evidenced in
Leviticus 23 verses 11, 15, or 16 at all)!
It is not for the love
of the Sabbath of the LORD the Seventh Day of the week that it is forced to be
the ‘sabbath’ in Lv23:11,15,16, but for the hatred of it.
And it won’t help, JH protests, “ JH is not theologically
opposed to any particular day of the week.... as the day of the resurrection of
our Lord....”, because
he immediately belies his apology,
saying, “....It is just that the Biblical evidence seems to show these events, both in
'type' and actuality, as occurring on the first day of the week, or the day “after
the (weekly) Sabbath” from what I am able to ascertain in Scripture.”
(Mark his adamant claim, “in 'type' and actuality”....!)
JH should better
have said, ‘....from what I am willing
to ascertain in Scripture.’
This other and ‘regular’ Sabbath of and in verse 3— the Seventh Day Sabbath— not since
verse 3 spoken of or referred to or alluded to again in the whole of the rest
of the context— this other and ‘regular’ Sabbath of and in verse 3, JH now wants to make the ‘irregular’ sabbath mentioned and
precisely “proclaimed” and ‘declared’ in Lv23 from verse 4 until verse 16 for being the ‘sabbath’
after its own particular “season”!
And that, after he has himself drawn attention to the indivuduality of the
‘Sabbath’ of and in verse 3, “It goes without saying that the “regular Sabbath” was every 7th
day (Lev. 23:3)”, and has himself indicated where in Leviticus 23 the passover’s own ‘sabbath’ is spoken of
or referred to, “....The verses regarding
“firstfruits” and the 'wave sheaf' (Lev. 23:9-12)....” “feasts in their season”!
“The Sabbath”, or, “sabbath” in “Lev. 23:9-12”?
GE:
Are all ‘sabbaths’ the weekly Sabbath?
JH, “The verses regarding “firstfruits”
and the 'wave sheaf' (Lev. 23:9-12) merely
say “the regular Sabbath.” I contend that “the regular Sabbath” means exactly
that, and that [the word, ‘Sabbath’,] would
include [or rather, ‘would mean’,] any and/or all
'Sabbaths.'”
GE:
All ‘calendar specific’ days and dates – and that included every and all calendar days
and dates, floated— as a whole
floated or ‘moved’
to, this year fall on this day of
the week; next year, to fall on that day of the week. Then now and then that ‘fill-in-‘ or ‘make-up-month’ was added to bring the
riligious year in line with the solar year – like JH pointed out but still understood
wrongly, because the ‘fill-in-month’ was fitted in
“roughly once in anywhere from some 3-10 years, or so”— but the beginning of the new
religious year, every year, was determined astrometrically precise, according
to the solar year.
What grounds do JH have for making his claim, “The verses regarding “firstfruits”
and the 'wave sheaf' (Lev. 23:9-12) merely
say “the regular Sabbath.” I contend that “the regular Sabbath” means exactly
that, and that [the word, ‘Sabbath’,] would
include [or rather, ‘would mean’,] any and/or all
'Sabbaths'” ?
— the grounds of ignoring context and
facts of the chapter from its beginning and the simple but clear distinctions
it makes between the ‘sabbaths’ that are said to be “My Sabbaths”, and
‘sabbaths’ that are said to be of “feasts.... in their seasons.... ye
shall.... proclaim”.
In brief, JH denies any difference between these two kinds
of sabbaths, and makes all ‘sabbaths’ the weekly Sabbath. There is nothing JH says
that does not revert to and rely on this assumption of his. With this approach
of his refuted, every ‘argument’ of JH has been refuted. For example, JH, “I further
contend, that this is the reason
that neither “firstfruits” nor “Pentecost” have specific calendar dates
assigned to them....” which
of course is also an untruth, but non the less is also based on his claim all ‘sabbaths’ are the weekly Sabbath.
‘Move’, how?
JH, “.... I further contend, that this, is
the reason that neither “firstfruits” nor “Pentecost” have specific
calendar dates assigned to them, in Scripture,
because they can and do move,
if necessary [roughly once in anywhere from some 3-10 years, or so, as the
Hebrew calendar adds a “make-up” month (called 2nd Abib), when necessary, to
keep the religious calendar, and/or lunar calendar, more or less accurately
with the 'solar' calendar], due to that
exact provision in Scripture (so that they do not fall on a Sabbath, while simultaneously occurring “after the Sabbath”),
and since 'Pentecost' is exactly 50 days after “firstfruits” (Lev. 23:16).”
GE:
JH, (Emphasis GE) “I further contend, that this is the reason that neither
“firstfruits” nor “Pentecost” have
specific calendar dates
assigned to them, in Scripture, because they can and do move...”
As if the assumed false ‘fact’ “that neither “firstfruits” nor “Pentecost”
have specific calendar dates assigned to them” meant they could be celebrated on 17 Nisan in case 16 Nisan was a weekly Sabbath! But it simply is not true “that neither “firstfruits”
nor “Pentecost”
have specific calendar dates assigned to them”— their specific calendar dates are simply not (here in
Leviticus) mentioned by numeric names of month, but their specific calendar dates as sure as mentioned, are implied.
With respect, yours is poor attempt at deception, JH, so
seemingly unassuming to pretend
1) “that exact provision in Scripture”
that does not exist;
2) that “regular weekly
Sabbath, namely Lev. 23: 3, 15b,
& 16” that
also does not exist but which you seemingly unassuming, pretend
exists.
JH blames me for “attempting.... to confute and combine, the Passover
meal .... with the meal of the Feast of Unleavened Bread....”, but here one sees how JH attempts to confute and combine his
‘reasons’ of, ‘all sabbaths are The Sabbath’ and that the calendar dates, ‘move’
by skipping – mark well, in that one specific case of the one day only First
Sheaf Wave Offering Nisan 16. JH
attempts to confute and combine seasonal feast sabbaths with The Sabbath,
and months, with weeks.
First Sheaf and First Loaves ‘moved’
with their dates of month— not
against it; First Sheaf and First Loaves ‘moved’ with their dates of the month;
with their specific, ‘seasonal’ dates of the month fixed to them, they ‘moved’ over the days of the week—
not from one day of the month to the
next day of the month!
And the reason they ‘moved’ with and stuck to their month’s days
and dates, lies with the origin of the first day of the first month
of the solar year which – by the regularity of the days of the week – could and did fall on any day of
the week.
The Scriptures nowhere gives direct information on this origin, but
your conclusion, “I further contend, that this
is the reason that neither “firstfruits”
nor “Pentecost” have specific
calendar dates assigned to them, in Scripture, because they”— allegedly “can and do
move” against their dates of month and not with it, contends against the undeniable correctness of the origin
of their “specific calendar dates assigned to them, in
Scripture”, even Lv23: “4These are the feasts of the LORD, even
holy convocations, which ye shall
proclaim:- in their seasons”.
‘First Sheaf’ and ‘Pentecost’ have specific calendar dates assigned to them in Scripture, because their dates are derived from the seasonal beginning of the solar year, so that they with their dates,
will float or ‘move’ across or back and fro through or over the days of the week; not of the month.
In other words, the reason that First Sheaf and
Pentecost can and do ‘move’, is
because they have specific calendar
dates assigned to them in Scripture that they must stick to, so that they may and could ‘move’ across
the days of the week— across any and every
of the days of the week, including the Seventh Day the Sabbath. (JH caught in
his own trap!)
It is one thing for a feast to 'move' or 'float' through or across or
zigzag through or over the week-days, and totally another, to have or to be fixed to dates or days of the months of
the solar year.
Consider the two proposals side by
side to see which is false, and which true, and which of honesty and pretext
the virtuous.
Distinctions ignored to deceive
GE:
The ‘sabbath’ in Lv23:11b, 15b,
& 16, clearly was a day ‘dated’,
Abib 15 (v. 6a), and was one of ‘these’
‘sabbaths’:- “4These are
the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim:- in
their seasons”, that is, “These are the feasts” of the LORD you shall determine, and date, and observe, according to the
‘seasonal’ year— ‘astrometrically’.
“Lev, 23:3”, I shall agree with you, ‘obviously refers to the
regular weekly Sabbath’. But as you must have noticed from the above, Lv23:15b,
& 16 – as well as 11b –, obviously do not
refer to the regular weekly Sabbath, but to the passover’s own and
characteristic ‘sabbath’-day of feasting (eating), convocation and refraining
from servile work (v. 7)— besides its ‘seasonal’
peculiarity of being fixed according to “the fifteenth day” after first new moon after solstice “of the
First Month to you”. The whole of the immediate context deals with the ‘seasonal’
peculiarities of the passover!
Neither “these feasts”, nor the several and different ‘sabbaths’
of these several and different feasts, were the always unique and
different from them “Seventh
Day Sabbath”, “Sabbath of the LORD your God”, “My Sabbaths”.
“Ye shall” do it – the LORD
leaves the determination of the
sabbaths “in their seasons” to 1)
the People, to 2) fix them 3) from nature – “seasons” and years – 4) to months, and to, 5) decree or “proclaim” them 6) day and date of 7) significance— ‘feast’, ‘sabbath’, ‘day’, ‘convocation’, ‘rest’— or
whatever. “These”, cannot, be the
Seventh Day Sabbath which is determined by the LORD Himself independently from
any natural forces or ‘seasons’ or determinations by man or metrics.
As I have explained, the very day of the first new moon after winter
solstice, was ‘decreed’ / “proclaimed”, the first day of the
First Month and first day of the solar year, Abib 1— “Observe the month of Abib”— and from the First
Month (Abib) and the first day of the First Month on new moon determined, every
and all following days, months and seasons and years, were determined. On the
command of the LORD the People (through their priests) fixed
the days and dates “in their seasons”— thus,
“5In the fourteenth day of the First
Month.... is the LORD’S passover (killed);
6and on the fifteenth day of the same month, is the Feast of Unleavened Bread....
11and....
on the day (‘morrow’) after (the fifteenth and on the sixteenth).... 10ye shall bring a sheaf of the
firstfruits of your harvest unto the priests 11and he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD to be accepted on
your behalf.”
The circumstantial driving force behind the “the day (immediately, without delay, lingering or omission!) after”
Abib 16.
“After the” Abib-15-passover-“sabbath” commanded, began
the harvest— “First Sheaf Wave Before the LORD”! The harvest could not be postponed one day! The harvest-”season”, could not just
‘float’ along indeterminately. The harvest must be finished for Shavuot and the First Loaves Wave Offering Before the
LORD! Fifty days, only! Everything
should run according to schedule; its ‘season’
demanding, beside the Greater Force behind, “the determinate council of God”! “The thing was done suddenly!”
2Chron29:36. The sixteenth day, not
a day ‘after’ it, and the
First Sheaf must be presented before the LORD so that the harvest could proceed
and the day be “counted”, first of fifty days to “the Fiftieth”-‘Shavuot’. First Sheaf could not be delayed. That was the
major aspect of it from the nature of its case.
Now, JH, you will recall a previous debate between us, where I showed
you this urgency with regard to Nisan 16, that it could not be postponed, while
even the passover itself – its sacrifice and its meal – in fact had been
postponed considerable time! (2Chr29-30)
The seriousness of the urgency of Nisan 16 and the First Sheaf Wave
Offering Before the LORD above all else relates to – in truth – the resurrection of Christ from the dead.
He could not be held in death! “Him, being delivered (First Sheaf of firstfruits) by the
determinate council and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked
hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up (First Sheaf Wave
Offering Before the LORD), having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that He
should be holden of it.... because Thou wilt not leave my soul in
hell, neither wilt Thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the
ways (and times) of life; Thou shalt make me full of joy with thy
countenance....(when I awake from death “according to the Scriptures the
third day” 1Cor15:4).” Refer study:- ‘Resurrection
not on fourth day’.
Now see this:- Nisan 16, and,
Pentecost— “When the day of Pentecost
was fully come”, the Word went forth, “.... This Jesus hath God raised up.... therefore, being by the right hand of
God exalted and, having received of the
Farther the Promise of the
Holy Ghost, He hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear!”
Not the resurrection of Christ, or the down-pouring of the Holy Spirit,
could vary one day or one hour from “the
determinate council and foreknowledge of God”. Nisan 16 of all dates
given to men in the determinate council and foreknowledge of God, could not be
altered:- since this, was its once for
all Fulfilment in Christ, “the
all in all fulfilling Fullness of God”.
....Fifty, and not fifty plus “only that one
day” after First Sheaf Wave
Offering!
“From the day after the (passover-)sabbath (on the ‘regular Sabbath’ in the year of our Lord’s death and
resurrection) count!” Rather meaningless and confusing if one would not
know from which day to start counting or which day to arrive at!
Then see all the ‘times of life’ decreed by God, converge in the Seventh
Day Sabbath, just as all
Prophecy and Promise and Law, converged in the One Sacrifice and One Offering
Before the LORD of First Sheaf Waved before the LORD— Jesus Christ our Lord in
resurrection from the dead. We no longer observe days and months and seasons
and years, but the all sabbaths-encompassing “Sabbath of the LORD your God” in
that He raised His Christ from the dead therein.
Sabbaths more worthy
In our previous study (‘Passover
Lamb and Unleavened Bread the Same Meal’) I have shown how ‘exactly’ no ‘mere’ ‘sabbath’
would be worthy of the Sabbath of Jesus’ resurrection from the dead. God showed
His preferred day; which He, appointed, and made, and utilised, servant of the
Servant of the LORD.
I repeat that paragraph,
4) No holy day directly or indirectly connects with the Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD your God— no other holy or convocational day called a ‘sabbath’—
1) The Seventh Day Sabbath in no way except that it pointed to Christ, connects with the Day of Atonement that in Lv16:31 is called and distinguished a ‘sabbath day’
2) The Seventh Day Sabbath in no way except that it pointed to Christ, connects with “the first day of the month” on which also the People “shall have a sabbath” (Lv23:24).
3) The Seventh Day Sabbath in no way except that it pointed to Christ, connects with even the years of ‘sabbath’ found in the ‘fiftieth year-sabbath’ or Jubilee and even in every seventh ‘sabbath’ of years.
But that eschatological connection between the Seventh Day Sabbath and the Passover and the ‘sabbath’ of the Passover of Yahweh, was predestined for and appointed to the Anointed of the LORD to make in the Yom Yahweh, in that He entered in into the Kingdom of God the Kingdom of his Suffering, to triumph and glory in Victory of suffering and resurrection from the dead “In the Sabbath’s fullness” (Mt28:1)— namely, “on the day after the sabbath” of the passover, in fulfilment namely, of the “First Sheaf Wave Offering Before the LORD”:- “It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you.... by a statute for ever” in Jesus Christ— This is how Christ “made the Sabbath”, and made it, “The Lord’s Day”!
The point is, when the word ‘sabbath’ appears in the Scriptures, like
here in Lv23:11,15,16, it by no means
must be the Seventh Day Sabbath
except in the day of Christ. (Cf. “the
last day” in the Gospel of John.) The Seventh Day Sabbath in any case is more
than once or twice indicated by
1) the name of its day of
creation, “Seventh Day” (See e.g. study, “Shewbread”.);
and
2) more often by its being designated “Sabbath
of the LORD your God”.
This is the reason why....
there allegedly are no dates for First Sheaf and Pentecost:-
JH, “I further contend, that this
is the reason that neither “firstfruits” nor “Pentecost” have specific calendar
dates assigned to them, in Scripture....”
GE:
I referred you to 2Chron29-30.
Every word of mine of then, still stands. But, as for here, you, “further contend”....
What was your contention before this? This:-
“The
verses regarding “firstfruits” and the ‘wave sheaf' (Lev. 23:9-12) merely say “the regular Sabbath.” I contend
that “the regular Sabbath” means exactly that....” (Emphasis GE)
This was your initial contention, which you went on to contradict with having said: “....and that would include any
and/or all 'Sabbaths'....”. Now you want to “further contend”? ‘Contend’ with what armoury;
from which platform?
JH, “I further contend, that
this is the reason that neither “firstfruits” nor “Pentecost”
have specific calendar dates....” (Emphasis GE)
GE:
Your Relative Pronoun “this”, refers back to your previously
already used ‘argument’ or ‘contention’, above, of:- “....and that would include any
and/or all 'Sabbaths'....”. So you do not ‘further contend’; you with “this reason” of yours, ‘contend’ in a circle; which means, you
are losing— you ‘contend’
regressively, while retreating.
JH, “The verses regarding “firstfruits” and the
'wave sheaf' (Lev. 23:9-12) merely
say “the regular Sabbath.” I contend that “the regular Sabbath” means exactly that....”.
You say – to begin with – “merely”,
but then— “I contend that “the regular Sabbath” means exactly that”. ‘Merely’, but
then your ‘merely’ becomes ‘exactly’, and your ‘exactly’ becomes
your, “day after the Sabbath.... that would
include any and/or all 'Sabbaths'”, “....that would include any and/or all 'Sabbaths'”— “the regular Sabbath”, specifically.
Are you not inconsistent? You are! You construct a
straw-man to contend with! No! “the
sabbath” in Lv23:11,15,16, implies its irrefutable relation to the passover’s
days and dates and sequence— according to context, content, thrust, and
arrangement of the whole Scripture-passage involved.
‘Decreed’
Why, should Nisan 16 “actually (be) declared [‘decreed’,
“proclaimed”] a Sabbath” if it is to be
identified, “the regular Sabbath” in Lv23:11,15,16? Nisan 16
should not be “declared a Sabbath”!!— Nisan 16 is in fact ‘declared’
/ ‘decreed’
/ “proclaimed”, “the day
after the sabbath” of the context
of Lv23:11,15,16, “the day after” the passover’s sabbath of Nisan 15!
Nisan 16 is in fact ‘declared’ / ‘decreed’ / “proclaimed”, “the day after
the sabbath”— “the sixteenth day
of the First Month” both by being mentioned
(2Chron29:17c) and implied as right
here in Lv23:11,15,16.
JH, you have not noticed
the distinction in Lv23 in
2c “These My
feasts:-
1) “3c It
is the Sabbath-of-the-LORD”
2) “4a ‘sabbaths’
of the “feasts of the Lord.... in their seasons”—
The first, ‘sabbaths’ of
“the regular
weekly Sabbath”-type;
The latter, ‘sabbaths’
of the ‘annual’ irregular sabbaths
type.
Matthew Henry— I
shuffled his clauses to fit better chronologically,
“the law of the sabbath in the first place.... v. 3”, “The weekly
feast of the sabbath”;
“the yearly feasts”.... (in the second place)
1.
The passover, the feast of unleavened bread (ver.4-8), to which was annexed the offering of the sheaf of firstfruits,
v. 9-14.
2. Pentecost, ver. 15-22. ....
.... ....
1.
A repetition of the law of the passover, which was to be observed on the fourteenth
day of the first month....
2.
.... the first (day of the feast of unleavened bread) is called the ‘sabbath’,
because it was observed as a sabbath (v. 11),.... An order for the offering of
a sheaf of the first-fruits,.... and, on the morrow after, they had
this solemnity....
upon the second day of the feast of unleavened bread;.... a sheaf.... was
brought to the priest who was to heave it up.”
Mark, that “the offering of a sheaf of the first-fruits”, occurred, “upon the second day of the feast of unleavened bread”, which was Nisan 16 and only Nisan 16. Nisan 17 would be the third day of the feast of Unleavened Bread! The Sheaf had to be offered “upon the second day of the feast of unleavened bread”!
Therefore:-
1) “The-first-day-of-Unleavened-Bread”
Eat, “decreed”/”proclaimed”,
“Feast-of-Passover”,
Abib 15 “the sabbath” of the context of Lv23:11,15,16— “after” which “sabbath”....
2) .... “decreed”/”proclaimed”,
came “the day after the sabbath” of the context of Lv23:11,15,16— “the day after the sabbath”-of-passover— “in its season”, the season of harvest, which ‘day’ –any which day of the week– shall
a) be ‘declared’,
decreed and “proclaimed”, named
and dated, Abib 16, first day of the winter harvest-”season”; and shall
b) be “counted”, given account of,
numbered, first day of fifty days to Pentecost; and shall
c) be “observed”, day of “First
Sheaf Wave Offering Before the LORD”!
Master-reason of one JH
JH, saying, “.... because
they can and do move, if necessary [roughly once in anywhere from some 3-10
years, or so, as the Hebrew calendar adds a “make-up” month (called 2nd Abib),
when necessary, to keep the religious calendar, and/or lunar calendar, more or
less accurately with the 'solar' calendar], due to that exact provision in
Scripture (so that they do not fall on a Sabbath, while simultaneously
occurring “after the Sabbath”), and since 'Pentecost' is exactly 50 days after “firstfruits”
(Lev. 23:16).”
GE:
If I may extract and emphasise what I think is your main
argument(s), JH? ....
“.... because [1a] they can and do move,
if necessary [roughly once in anywhere from some 3-10 years, or so, as the
Hebrew calendar adds a [1b] “make-up” month
(called 2nd Abib), when necessary, [1c] to keep the religious calendar, and/or lunar calendar,
more or less accurately with the 'solar' calendar], due to that [2] exact provision in
Scripture (so that they do not fall on a Sabbath, while
simultaneously occurring “after the Sabbath”), and since 'Pentecost' is
exactly 50 days after “firstfruits” (Lev. 23:16).
JH makes a categorical statement, and a categorical mistake.
Now absolutely everything JH claims and states is due to this
assumption of his and stands or falls with it— his categorical assumption of “that exact provision in
Scripture (so that they do not fall on a Sabbath”. Only problem is, JH, we are waiting for
you to give us your “exact provision in Scripture”.
The present discussion between us is the umpteenth; you have had every invitation
and opportunity to play this trump card of yours, this “exact provision in Scripture”, many times before. All we ask before we
push our chips over to you, is, place that card of yours on the table first!
Let us see, your exact
provision in Scripture, so that the incidences of First Sheaf Wave Offering do not fall on a Sabbath
while simultaneously occurring “after the Sabbath”!
While for this you have nothing but your false and precarious hold on Lv23:11,15,16.
Besides that we all know our Bibles well enough to know there is no
such exact provision made in Scripture, what need
is there in Scripture for such ‘provision’? Why should it be prevented
First Sheaf should happen on the Sabbath, “while
simultaneously occurring “after the sabbath””— like of Passover, like it
happened in the case of Christ’s resurrection “on the Sabbath” (Mt28:1) ‘while simultaneously’ First Sheaf occurred “after the sabbath”-of-Passover?
What need it should be prevented?
To prevent the truth? To make void Scriptures
like Ps15:10, Acts 2:27,31, 1Cor15:4, Mt12:40, Jn19:31 and Mt28:1? Just to ‘provide’ Resurrection would not
occur on the Sabbath because it is an offence to some Christians it might?
While for this you have nothing but your false and precarious hold on Lv23:11,15,16.
GE:
“First(1) day of(2) the week(3)”, are
the words “the NT”, uses. It does not use the words
from Leviticus, “the(1) day after(2) the sabbath(3)”— NO, correlation!
“First day of
the week”, are the words “the NT”, uses, and they “refer to obviously and logically the day after the regular
weekly Sabbath.” “The day after the
Sabbath” are the words Leviticus
uses, and they, refer to obviously
and logically, the very day after
the ‘sabbath’ there dated and named,
Nisan 15, passover’s “Feast-” and “-sabbath”!
Let us compare apples with apples.
But yes, “First day of the week”, are the words “the NT”— The New
Testament, uses, and they, “refer to obviously and logically the day after the regular
weekly Sabbath.” “On the First Day
of the week” in no way
whatsoever was “the
regular Sabbath” of Lv23:11,15,16,
but in fact was the ‘normal’ day
after the ‘normal’, ‘regular Sabbath’ of the
Seventh Day of the week.
If translations or versions of the
New Testament changed “On the Sabbath” of Mt28:1 to ‘after the Sabbath’
with a view to Lv23:11,15,16, it would be a scandalous manhandling of the pure
Word of God.
Notwithstanding how men might have
corrupted the Scriptures, it is still up to us to go ascertain what in fact, occurred “on
the First day of the week” the obvious and regular weekly day after the
Sabbath— Was Jesus resurrected on
it? Or did Jesus appear on it, “risen”? Did Jesus “appear on the First Day, the Risen One” (Mk16:9), or, rose He from the dead “on the Sabbath”? The answer will
provide the answer to which of these two days of the week – the Sabbath and the
First Day – the determining day of all other following (or preceding) days
of First Sheaf Wave Offering— irrespective of past seasonal determinations
– in fact in Christian economy had been
and must be by ordinance of its very occurrence in the Life of Christ.
(Observe how I put my questions in Scriptural terms; and not in terms
of human pretext and presumption, like, ‘Did
Jesus rise (and appear) from the
dead on the First Day of the week?’ in which question(s) nothing is really
asked, but everything is presumed, and subterfuge, and has been taken for
granted already— circular reasoning!)
So then, That First Sheaf (and Pentecost) ‘can and do move due to exact provision in Scripture so that they do not fall on a Sabbath while simultaneously occurring ‘after the Sabbath’’, is a completely false and fantastical supposition, designed and defined to prevent First Sheaf Wave Offering to fall on its in its old dispensation and ministration “in its season”, “proclaimed” day and date of Nisan 16, and instead to force it to ‘move’ on— onto the next day of the month after “the day after the Sabbath”— after the ‘sabbath’ of the passover dealt with in the relevant Scriptures, Lv23:11,15,16; and to not allow First Sheaf Wave Offering, on, and with, and as, the day of its appointment and proclamation –Nisan 16– to ‘move’ or ‘float’ across the days of the week onto whichever day of the week its ‘seasonal’-appointment and designation inevitably would bring it.
Basic supposition of one JH
JH, “There was no Scriptural
prohibition, that Pentecost could not fall “on the sabbath” that I can find in
Scripture....”
GE:
How emphatic, “no Scriptural
prohibition.... in Scripture”. Therefore, Where is the Scriptural
prohibition in Scripture, that First
Sheaf could not fall “on the sabbath”?
JH, “Actually, only “first-fruits”
technically “moved””. “So when “first-fruit” moved by that one day, so did Pentecost”. “Actually, only “first-fruits” technically “moved”.... and that by only one day”....
GE:
Basic
supposition of JH— one would expect a very specific, precedent or instruction;
but no! No example to illustrate; no
‘commandment’, to the effect!
Why was ‘provision’
not made that the number of fifty days
could be lessened in case the first day would be 17 Nisan while the fiftieth
day from Nisan 16 stayed unchanged the same day of First Loaves? How could First Sheaf not be allowed to ‘move’ onto the Sabbath, yet for Pentecost – that for its
day and date relied on the day and date of First Sheaf –, “there was no Scriptural
prohibition, that Pentecost could not fall “on the sabbath”?
In other words, there was, no Scriptural prohibition that
Pentecost could fall on the Sabbath,
and could fall on the Sabbath because,
there was, no Scriptural prohibition
that First Sheaf wave Offering— fifty days before Pentecost – not
one day less; not one day more –, ‘in fact’, did fall, on the Sabbath
(Seventh Day).
JH, “.... and in fact, when “first-fruits” normally 16 Nisan, would
fall on the sixth day of the week, then Pentecost would have to occur “on the
Sabbath” exactly 50 days later than “first-fruits”.”
GE:
“...”first-fruits” normally 16 Nisan...” as if “first-fruits”
ever could be, not ‘normal’! This in any case counts 51 days, not “50 days”! (See our discussion on, “Resurrection not on a fourth day”.) Friday,
seven seven days and on the day after, is
Friday, not the Sabbath.
And ““first-fruits” normally [that is,
‘decreed’, ‘declared’, “proclaimed”] 16 Nisan”, is “first-fruits”
by institution “proclaimed”, 16 Nisan
Why “would....the “normal” date be 16 Nisan” if the ‘normal’ date, was
16 Nisan? And why was 16 Nisan “the normal date” and always “would be” 16 Nisan? Because of the known force and cause; because of the ‘declared’, and “proclaimed” force
and cause of the First Sheaf Wave
Offering; nothing else! So there can
never be one case when the normal date ‘would’, or ‘might have been’, 16 Nisan;
it always had to be, Nisan 16.
The conditions or causes (per
definition) when and how – according to JH – the alleged ‘movement’ of “first-fruits”
from “16 Nisan
to 17 Nisan”, would incur, would be:-
a) “....when the “normal” date would
be 16 Nisan....”, and
b) “....when 16 Nisan would occur “on
the Sabbath”.
That says, “....when the “normal” date ....
16 Nisan.... would occur “on the Sabbath”.... obviously meaning the regular
weekly Sabbath”. And that says, “....when.... 16 Nisan.... would occur “on the
Sabbath”. So, “when 16 Nisan would occur on the Sabbath”,
then, “first-fruits
only”, “technically
‘moved’”, “to
17 Nisan”. But, obviously – according to JH – the date, 16 Nisan, stayed, 16
Nisan.
The significance of the day of 16 Nisan (by an unknown force) separated itself from the day of 16 Nisan, to reside in 17 Nisan. Or, JH, fabricated the
separation.
The event makes the day;
not the day, the event, is what I always have said! First Sheaf Wave Offering
makes Nisan 16 Nisan 16, day of
First Sheaf Wave Offering!
These many discrepancies
are not one the big flaw in JH’s reasoning; they rather are it collectively.
“....when the “normal” date (of “first-fruits”)
would be 16 Nisan....”, is JH’s presumption, his conjecture. Rather, “....when the “normal” date (of
“first-fruits”) would be 16 Nisan....”
is JH’s covering-up of his pretence
that “only “first-fruits”
technically “moved” (and that by only one day), in order to be “after the
Sabbath” when the “normal” date would be 16 Nisan”. Because here we see JH using
his presupposition,
as were it a fact wherewith he could
prove his conjectured
presupposition— Why First Sheaf wave
Offering cannot fall on or ‘mean’ “the regular weekly Sabbath”:- circular reasoning!
Why rejected
1) ““first-fruits” technically “moved””—
Why rejected:
“first-fruits”
never “moved”;
the date of its occurrence and observance never ‘moved’
or changed; the day of the week of
its occurrence and observance ‘moved’ or changed from year to year, from weekday to weekday.
No further contending!
2) “in order to be “after the Sabbath””:-
Why rejected:
The Sabbath was never a
reason or the situation that Nisan
16 and / or ‘First Sheaf of Firstfruits’ had to be separated— had to become
something it not normally was; had to surrender any of its attributes, “in order to be “after the
Sabbath””. Nisan 16 and / or ‘First Sheaf of Firstfruits’
never had to avoid at the same time to be “the regular weekly Sabbath”;
in other words, Nisan 16 and / or ‘First Sheaf of Firstfruits’ never had to
avoid to coincide with “the regular weekly Sabbath”; there never was any
reason for, cause of, or circumstance to, it.
Your idea it should move
from 16 to 17 Nisan is a fallacy based on your fallacy ‘sabbaths’ are all the
Seventh Day Sabbath.
3) “since there is no 'hint' of 16 Nisan (or 17 Nisan)
actually being declared a Sabbath”
Why rejected:
“Since there is no 'hint' of 16
Nisan”, says JH, or, because
of the fact “there
is no 'hint' of 16 Nisan actually being declared a Sabbath”,
that is why, says JH, “obviously.... when
16 Nisan would occur “on the Sabbath”.... the regular weekly Sabbath (is meant)”.
Circular reasoning! “When 16 Nisan would occur “on
the Sabbath””, it obviously will be “meaning the regular weekly
Sabbath”— whether there at all were a “'hint' of 16 Nisan actually being declared a
Sabbath”
or not!
Would this
obvious and indisputable and unavoidable possibility (seeing First Sheaf ‘moves’ through
the days of the week and some time or other must coincide with “the regular weekly Sabbath”) need (– and why would it need –) that there must be some “'hint' of 16 Nisan actually being declared a Sabbath” to occur on it? Ridiculous!
“....when 16
Nisan would occur “on the Sabbath””, it would occur on the
Sabbath! So what? ‘It
goes without saying’!
Why should First Sheaf Wave Offering not occur on “the regular weekly Sabbath”?
Because it is not “the
regular weekly Sabbath”? What ‘reason’, is that?
Is there anything that says, First Sheaf Wave Offering may not
occur on “the
regular weekly Sabbath”? Must First Sheaf Wave Offering first be “declared a Sabbath”
before it could “occur
“on the Sabbath””? What
absurdity is that?
“When 16 Nisan would occur ‘on
the Sabbath’”, First Sheaf Wave Offering would occur on the
Sabbath, and both First Sheaf Wave Offering and Nisan 16, on Nisan 16, would
occur on the Sabbath.
Indeed, for JH, Nisan 16 may occur on “the regular weekly Sabbath”,
but not First Sheaf Wave Offering!
That, is not allowed ---
not that it is not possible by any means or reason or cause or logic or
Scriptures; it is simply not permissible— as if such coincidence would vilify
virtue!
No, it is “in order”,
says JH, “when
16 Nisan would occur “on
the Sabbath””; but it is out of order and beyond any possibility
that First Sheaf Wave Offering should
occur “on the Sabbath”, for this reason only according to JH, that First Sheaf Wave
Offering cannot, may not, occur on “the regular weekly Sabbath”!
Now what kind of reasoning is that?— circular reasoning!
Why should there be a “'hint' of 16 Nisan actually
being declared a Sabbath” for First Loaves Pentecost to
“occur “on the
Sabbath””, as I have asked
before? ‘Obviously’, there is no reason why it should! So just as ‘obviously’,
why should there a prohibition be ‘declared’,
First Sheaf Wave Offering should not
“occur “on the
Sabbath”?
Unless!....
the Gospels, ‘declare’, that Jesus Christ – the ‘normative
Passover’ – on a Thursday on Nisan 14 was ‘killed’ (agreed),
unless....
it by pretext beforehand is presumed, the Gospels, “proclaim”, that
Jesus Christ – the ‘normative
First Sheaf’ – on Sunday the First Day of the week, Nisan 17,
was raised up!;
unless....
it by pretext beforehand is presumed “as to how Jesus could
partake of the Passover meal (thus fulfilling Scripture) and yet be crucified
(as Our Passover) on the same Jewish day (again fulfilling the Scripture)”,
and on the First Day of the week would rise;
Which constant presuming and pretext unmask itself the old ‘methodology’ of circular reasoning!
But now,
First, it is observed and found an absolute prophetic principle in and of the Old
Testament, Jesus would rise on the Sabbath,
and
Next, that it is observed and found an absolute fact of the fulfilment of all prophecy
of the Old Testament in the New
Testament, that Jesus did rise from the dead “On the Sabbath”. Conclusive and final!
Nevertheless,
observe this further,
mere, pretext,
JH, “Actually, only “first-fruits”
technically “moved”....”,
but,
“....There was no Scriptural
prohibition, that Pentecost could not fall “on
the sabbath”....”
GE:
What “Scriptural prohibition”
could, or did, JH provide us, that ‘first-fruits’ could not also fall “on the sabbath”?
JH could give us no ‘Scriptural prohibition’! I want to see it! JH could not ‘find
that in Scripture’, just as
he could find no ‘Scriptural prohibition in
Scripture’ that Pentecost,
could not fall on the Sabbath! All
JH has done, was to allude back to his first, mere, pretext, that there was ‘Scriptural
prohibition’ that First
Sheaf, could not fall on the ‘regular Sabbath’!....
circular argumentation!
Just see how well JH knows
what circular argumentation is,
JH, “.... attempted 'theology' to support a particular conclusion” which one has no grounds for, “since Scripture simply does not declare”, that which one “has said.” See from ending of this conversation.)
But we with the ‘8x’-cross-over-method
got two facts making one conclusive fact, that Nisan 16 on ‘the regular Sabbath’,
was First Sheaf Wave Offering on ‘the regular Sabbath’! That, everybody can
find in Scripture, and in fact, when ‘first-fruits’ –always on 16 Nisan– would
fall on the Seventh Day of the week, then Pentecost would occur ‘on the Sabbath’
exactly 50 days after ‘First Sheaf first-fruits’, ‘on the Sabbath’.
JH:
Quoting GE, “Then
see all the ‘times of life’ decreed by God, converge in the Seventh Day
Sabbath, just as all Prophecy and Promise and Law, converged in the One
Sacrifice and One Offering Before the LORD of First Sheaf Waved before the
LORD— Jesus Christ our Lord in resurrection from the dead. We no longer observe
days and months and seasons and years, but the all times-encompassing “Sabbath
of the LORD your God” in that He raised His Christ from the dead therein.”
(Nonsense! this in this last paragraph is attempted 'theology' to support a
particular conclusion, since Scripture simply does not declare this that you
have said, and that I have marked, anywhere!)
“
That problem I have highlighted, in your remarks.
Plus, added one loud, and terse comment, at the end, above.) See my next post,
where I will conform my point.
GE:
JH has now touched on another subject, ‘On
which day of the week, was Christ actually raised from the dead?’ It so happened this was the topic when we long
ago started dialoguing. We have made full circle.
If you will, JH, let us
leave it over for another time, or just refer back to my many previous
statements you have chosen not to answer to?
Let us end this study
with this excellent definition of JH of ‘circular thinking’,
“attempted 'theology' to
support a particular conclusion, since Scripture simply does not declare this
that you have said”
9 December 2008
Gerhard Ebersöhn
Pvt Bag X43
Sunninghill 2157