Buying not allowed on a ‘high day sabbath’?
THURSDAY CRUCIFIXION
By JV
Yet another cauldron of misconceptions
refuted by Gerhard Ebersöhn
Dear fellow Christian, Believers, the Reformed, Church,
Because you are believing Christians, I ask you for a moment to stop, and listen, and not be listened to. Comment is a duty, a Christian's most sacred duty, a believer's obedience to the Word of God. Therefore only is comment a privilege, and the right to it, cherished by especially the Reformed Protestant believer; for that reason I pray God I may undaunted honour the Lord Jesus Christ, and respect his written holy Word the Scriptures.
But I know that my plea won't be heeded, and that you won't publish my admonition, for it concerns our Reformed Christians' pet sin --- the worship of the lord sun and his day of worship, Sunday.
Jesus Christ arose, quote: "In the Sabbath", Matt. 28:1, KJV; / "On the Sabbath"; not, 'on the first day of the week', but, quote: "towards = before the First Day of the week". He entered into his rest from labor, Hb4:4, "the Seventh Day"; not on Sunday, (the first day of the week). As Jesus entered into his rest "Sabbath's", "Sabbath's fullness" ('opse sabbatohn'), so He encourages us to end the week and all our own works by resting in the confidence that He provided for all our needs for salvation and eternity as well as this life by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. "Therefore let no one condemn you with regard to .... feast of Sabbaths'-feast". Col2:16.
GE:
Three Days and Three Nights
All these Scriptures are in PERFECT AGREEMENT in every respect :
And yes, they have everything to do with the ‘three days prophecy’ BECAUSE :
1A) HERE BEGINS the NIGHT and the FIRST of the
“three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
wherein Jesus ENTERED IN into “the Kingdom of my Father” (Jesus’ Jonah’s
descent to hell) :–
Mk14:12/17; Mt26:17/20; Lk22:7/14; Jn13:1.
1B) HERE BEGINS the MORNING of the FIRST of the “three days”, “according
to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
in which Jesus was delivered and crucified :–
Mk15:1/Mt27:1/Lk23:1/Jn19:14
1C) HERE is the LATE NOON AND MID–AFTERNOON of the FIRST of
the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” –
the passover–Scriptures :–
when Jesus DIED and was
deserted by all :–
Mk15:37–41; Mk27:50–56; Lk23:44–49; Jn19:28–30
2A) HERE BEGINS the SECOND of the “three days”, “according
to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
the day whereon Joseph WOULD BURY the body of Jesus :–
Mk15:42/Mt27:57, Lk23:50–51, Jn19:31/38.
2B) HERE is the NIGHT of the SECOND of the “three days”, “according to
the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
wherein Joseph begged the body, and
according to the law of the Jews – the passover’s law – undertook and prepared
to bury Jesus:–
Mk15:43–46a; Mt27:58–59; Lk23:52–53a; Jn19:31b–40
2C) HERE is the LATE NOON AND MID–AFTERNOON of the SECOND of
the “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
when Joseph and Nicodemus laid the body and closed the tomb;
and men and women left for home :–
Mk15:46b–47; Mk27:60–61; Lk23:53b–56a; JN19:41–42
3A) HERE BEGINS the THIRD of the “three days”, “according to
the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
THAT JESUS WOULD RISE FROM THE DEAD ON :–
Lk23:56b
3B) HERE is the MORNING of the THIRD of the “three days”, “according
to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
Pilate ordered a guard “for the third day” :–
Mt27:62–66
3C) HERE is “IN the Sabbath’s Fullness MID–AFTERNOON” of the THIRD of the “three
days”, “according to the Scriptures” – the passover–Scriptures :–
First Sheaf Wave Offering Before the LORD :–
Mt28:1–4.
4A) HERE begins the day AFTER the “three days” (fourth
day of the passover season) :–
that Jesus WOULD APPEAR on :–
Mk16:1, “When the Sabbath was past ..... they BOUGHT ....”
4B) HERE is the EVENING of this day,
Jn20:1–10 Mary sees the DOORSTONE was away from the tomb (discovers tomb has been OPENED);
4C) HERE is the NIGHT of this day,
Lk24:1–10 “DEEP(EST) DARKNESS” ––– “women with their spices” and ointments go to salve the body; “they found Him NOT” (discover tomb is EMPTY);
Mk16:2–8 “very early (before) SUN’S RISING” ––– women’s return–visit to ascertain; “they fled terrified and told NO ONE”.
4D) Here is sunrise (‘Sunday’ morning),
Jn20:11f, Mk16:9 “Mary had had stood behind” .... saw the gardener (sunrise); “Risen, early (sunrise) on the First Day, Jesus first APPEARED to Mary ....”
Mt28:5–10 “The angel explained to the (other) women (Mt28:1–4) .... As they went to tell .... Jesus met them” (after sunrise).
Mt28:11–15 Guard to high priests.
USE BIBLES OF BEFORE THE TWENTIETH CENTURY – they are not as wangled as the later ones. And compare those ancient translations with the modern ones to see the truth of the older ones!
Objection:
“The same verse you earlier used to assert that He resurrected on the Sabbath, can also be used to assert that He resurrected on Sunday!”
Answer:
If the verse you have in mind is Mt28:1, it CANNOT “also be used to assert that He resurrected on Sunday!”
1) BECAUSE of
all the reasons I have already given from ALL
the Scriptures;
2) BECAUSE of its ONLY CORRECT literal meaning:
“opse de” and in fullness / late on / in
“sabbatohn” of the Sabbath
(“sabbatohn”) the Sabbath’s / Sabbath’s–time’s
“tehi” in the
“epi” very / midst
“phohs” light / daylight / (noon)
“ousehi” in the being
“eis” towards / before / tending / against
“mian (hehmeran) sabbatohn” Acc=excluded First (Day) of the week.
3) Precisely as used in Lk23:54 for Friday “mid–afternoon before the Sabbath”.
4) BECAUSE of the Exodus and Leviticus passover instructions concerning Abib 14, 15, and 16.
5) BECAUSE of Mt12:40 and “three days AND three nights”.
6) BECAUSE of the use of both words, ‘opse’, and, ‘opsia’ in extra- Biblical sources.
THEREFORE:
1) Fifth Day : Wednesday night and Thursday day ––– Abib 14, Remove leaven and slaughter lamb;
2) Sixth Day / “the Preparation WHICH IS the Fore-Sabbath” : Thursday night and Friday day ––– Abib 15, “that which remaineth” carried out and burned (interred);
3) Seventh Day Sabbath “according to the (Fourth) Commandment” : Friday night and Sabbath, day ––– Abib 16, “First Sheaf Wave Offering Before the LORD”.
Mk15:42
Here we have Mark calling one only day, by its two different names, “The Preparation Day”, and, “The Fore–Sabbath” : “The Preparation Day which is The Fore–Sabbath, was.”— Singular (‘Friday’).
And this day was neither “the day before Jesus died”, nor “the day that Jesus died”. It was the day after the day Jesus died!
1) Here we have Mark calling “the day of Preparation”, the day “which is the Fore–Sabbath”, which is the Sixth Day of the week.
2) Here we have in Mark 15:42 it says, “And now when the evening (after sunset) had come already, it already being the Preparation which is the day before the (weekly) Sabbath”— which was the very day of Unleavened Bread— not, “.... the day before the Sabbath (of Unleavened Bread).” Friday was the sabbath of unleavened bread.
Don’t you yourself argue Jesus was crucified and died on Thursday afternoon, Abib 14? Then was the passover eaten in the same day that it was killed also? Or was it eaten after sunset on the next day? So, while the passover was eaten in the following night and first part of that following day, sir, “it by now being after sunset the evening having had come already”, it must have been Friday, by “now”.
This is how Mark – not I – argue: “This Sabbath was their 7th day Sabbath.”
JV:
“Not so, because on this day, the day Jesus died, Joseph of Arimathaea still had time to go to the markets and purchase fine linen ....(Mark 15:46) ......”
GE:
1) What reasoning or logic is this that ‘argues’, “because Joseph of Arimathaea still had time to go to the markets and purchase fine linen” it
1) still had to have been the day that Jesus died on?
and
2) could not have been the day after Jesus had died on?
What is this, other than pure assumption even had there been ‘law’ against purchase on a great day sabbath? But the fact there is,
1) no such thing in all the Bible, and
2) clear indications purchase was made this very night of the great day sabbath. Jn13:29c, Mk15:46. Note that I am not trying to prove Mk15:46 true; I accept and depart from the disposition Mk15:46 is literally correct, true, and fact regardless any ceremonial laws.
2) Would Mark not have ‘argued’ himself had it been unlawful to purchase on the unleavened bread feast or sabbath day? Would he have left us with ambiguous impressions concerning that which he so carefully and clearly with Demonstrative Pronouns, Definitive Adverbs, Indicative Predicates and vernacular and traditional appellations of days the lot have defined?
Why should you, or I, answer on Mark’s behalf? What he wrote is in harmony with the other Gospels as well as with all the OT instructions concerning the sabbath of unleavened bread, Abib 15. We don’t need to clarify anything; Mark himself explained everything.
3) You have no reason to doubt Mk14:46 in the light of verse 42 except the flimsy foundation of your own disbelief Joseph had the law and historical circumstance on his side when he bought the linen during the night hours of Abib 15 passover sabbath.
4) The crux – next to this – of your dilemma, dear JV, is that you try to do the impossible; you want to reconcile the theory of a Wednesday Crucifixion with a Thursday Crucifixion actuality. You want to create two days in between Crucifixion and Resurrection. For that, you depend on the fallacy it was unlawful to purchase on any ‘sabbath’ of any kind.
5) Notwithstanding, yours is the ‘reasoning’ and ‘arguing’ of assumption, to merely suppose, to buy on the day of unleavened bread sabbath was out of the question, and that to “purchase fine linen...(Mark 15:46) (was) something (Joseph) could not do if Passover had already started the evening before, for it ranked as High a Sabbath as the 7th day Sabbath, and there could be no marketing....no buying and selling.”
How correct would you have been, JV, had you admitted, and not denied, “Passover had already started the evening before”. The thought must have dawned upon you for good reason, but you without enquiring dismissed it unconditionally. That’s where you have gone wrong : from the outset. You from the word go contradicted Mark and John where they affirm it was the Preparation that had been the great day sabbath, coinciding; that Preparation and Fore–Sabbath were the same day, as well as ‘great day sabbath’, and that this day of Fore–Sabbath and great day sabbath, had begun with “the evening” that “was” introductory, ‘before–part’, of it, “already”.
Day of burial could not have begun with the afternoon at the end of it, could it? Well, that is what you are saying, throwing Mk15:42 and Lk23:54–56 together at the beginning of the day.
Principal Mistakes:
1) Because you allege Joseph could not have bought on a sabbath, you reject the unambiguously stated fact the day that
Joseph undertook on, being a great
day sabbath indeed, had begun with
after sunset “evening”, and would end with after noon before sunset.
2) Ignoring what Joseph in between after sunset evening and before mid–afternoon had done – during twelve hours plus had to have finished – you identify Mark 15:42 and parallel texts Matthew 27:57 and John 19:31/38, with Luke 23:54–56 and parallel text John 19:42.
3) You regard Luke 23:54–56 and parallel text John 19:42 as indicating sunset itself virtually, whereas these Scriptures clearly indicate the beginning of the more or less three last hours on Friday afternoon properly the hours of “the Jews’ preparation/s” for the pending Sabbath.
1) Therefore, yours is the ‘reasoning’ and ‘arguing’ of assumption and then to apply your assumption as indiscriminating rule of law. You use your own assumption as were it the law; you are not even supposing the real law for the rule. And you merely allege the real law permits no buying on the sabbath of unleavened bread, because declared JV, “Passover (‘sabbath’) ..... ranked as High a Sabbath as the 7th day Sabbath.” In real life the law allowed for buying on ‘ceremonial’ or ‘feast’ sabbaths; in fact, from its very nature, demanded and commanded it! We see this ‘law’, forcing itself upon its subjects in the very instance in hand. Nevertheless the religious requirements of it was obvious since the first passover recorded in Exodus and Leviticus.
2) Yours is the ‘reasoning’ and ‘arguing’ that create false impressions by putting words of your own in Mark’s mouth, “Passover”, as were that ‘evening’ the evening beginning of the day the passover would be slaughtered on, and not what it really was, the day that the passover would be eaten on and the remains of it would be returned to the earth again.
Yours is the ‘reasoning’ and ‘arguing’ that create false impressions by putting words of your own in Mark’s mouth, “Passover”, “had already started the evening”, “before”, which must mean “the evening before” that began the day that by ‘now’ – according to you – lay almost 24 hours in the past and could not just have been beginning. (Lk23:54–56) An impossible situation! You steer away from the fact Mark mentions the evening ––– the evening after Jesus had been crucified and died ––– the evening that had begun the next day.
Mark supposes or means neither “the evening before”, Wednesday evening, nor, the evening after, Friday evening. What Mark most certainly “here in Mark 15:42” did not think of, was the “afternoon” which Luke in 23:54–56 had in mind.
Mark does not mean, and makes no mention of, ‘Passover’, or, of “the evening before”. He simply says, “Now that (the present) evening, already was / Now when already it had become, (the present) evening”, ‘opsias genomenehs’, (the present) “evening having had started / (the present) evening having had begun already therefore (‘epei’)”. “When evening it was”, the ‘evening’, Subject supposed in the (Ingressive) Aorist Participle, ‘genomenehs’.
Not “Passover”, “had already started”; not even “Passover having had started”, because the Participle is Adjectival of ‘evening’, not of ‘passover’, and ‘heh opsia’ is Feminine and ‘to pasxa’, Neuter.
3) Yours is ‘reasoning’ and ‘arguing’ that confuse the subjects of the verb and predicates in Mark 15,42. “Evening it was”, “evening” that began “The Preparation which is the Fore–Sabbath”. “Evening having had started / evening having had begun already therefore (‘epei’).”
“Evening having had started / evening having had begun already therefore” while, “now / by now (it) was The Preparation” : Ingressive Aorist •>—. “Evening having had started / evening having had begun already” yet while – in wider sense and scope –“The Preparation was” still future and prospective : Culminative Aorist —<•.
4) Yours is ‘reasoning’ and ‘arguing’ that confuse beginning and end. The “evening” of THIS “Preparation which was the Fore–Sabbath” lay at and in the beginning of it— was its first part of day. ‘The evening before’ formed no part of the great day sabbath of passover and unleavened bread. ‘The evening before’ this evening, had had been the beginning of the day before “now”, the evening of the “day they slaughtered the passover” on. ‘The evening before’ was Abib fourteen’s ‘evening (after sunset)’— not the fifteenth day’s after sunset in which they ate the passover.
5) Nowhere in all of Scripture can you show us that buying was prohibited on any ‘ceremonial’ or ‘feast’ sabbath. The Scriptures are clear and to the contrary, that many holy duties specifically of the passover’s sabbath or sabbath of unleavened bread, the fifteenth day of the First Month, were actually mandatory or / and were by mandate, allowed.
6) Yours is the ‘reasoning’ or ‘arguing’ that ignores the fact that “the evening had come already” and “now” it had been the duration of the yet prospective day “already”— during the time of which day Joseph would go purchase linen to wrap Him in; and during the time of which day Joseph would still bury the body of Jesus. Joseph began his undertaking ‘now’; he did not end it ‘now’. (He ended it according to Lk23,54–56 and Jn19:42 on Friday afternoon ––– not on ‘Thursday evening’!)
7) Yours is the ‘reasoning’ or ‘arguing’ that ignores what the ‘parallel’ text of Mk15.42/Mt27,57, John 19:31, plainly for the record stated, that “Because it was the Preparation (now) .... for it was / would be** a great day sabbath that day, the Jews asked Pilate that the legs (of the crucified) might be broken ....”. “The Preparation” and the “great day sabbath”, just like in Mk15,42 “The Preparation” and the ‘day of unleavened bread sabbath’, were one and the same day, the fifteenth day of the First Month, and “here” – in both Scriptures – were the Sixth Day or ‘Friday’ that had begun after sunset and “It now having had become evening”— “evening” of that very same night and of that very same day’s beginning, “having had become already”.
(**Future, Culminative Aorist, —<• “that day was” (‘ekeineh hehmera ehn’); with Demonstrative Pronoun of “that” still prospective “day”.)
8) Yours is an ‘arguing’ that ignores the reason, logic and truth that, to have asked for the crucified to be removed when the great day sabbath would have been virtually over, would have been illogical to the utmost. (For to have them removed was the whole ‘reasoning’ behind the Jews’ asking for the legs of the crucified to be broken.) Yours is an ‘arguing’ that ignores the reasoning that to have asked for the crucified to be removed when and because the sabbath of that great day had begun, would have saved face more than the Jews deserved.
“The custom according to the feast” was that the Roman authorities in sympathy with the religious and national importance which the Jews attached to the feast, would rather have released a condemned criminal than to have crucified him. The Jews despite their own interest though, preferred Jesus to be crucified on the Preparation of the Passover Abib 14. But no sooner than the ‘High Day Feast Sabbath’ actually had begun, they realised the shameful reminder of their subjection under Roman rule, and requested that the death of the crucified be hastened by having their legs broken— so that they could be removed from sight.
9) Yours is an ‘arguing’ that not only ignores, but contradicts the truth “The Preparation” was the only day “which is” the other, “the Fore–Sabbath”: the one day of dual nature and dual observance, which was both “the preparation, that is, the day before the Sabbath” and, “the Sabbath (of Unleavened Bread)” Feast, Abib 15, ‘great day sabbath’, and, “The Preparation Day”, according to Jn19,31.
The sole objection you have been able to lodge against these multiple self–explanatory and self–proving facts and factors, was your baseless assumption that the Law forbade Joseph to do his buying of linen on the ‘great day sabbath’ because it was “something he could not do if Passover had already started the evening before, for it ranked as High a Sabbath as the 7th day Sabbath, and there could be no marketing....no buying and selling.”
Blunder or blueprint
of bluster?
“So Mark himself clears up the issue by letting us know that the Last Supper was a special time designated by Our Lord to eat the Passover with his disciples. The actual national Passover was the next evening.”
JV continued with this statement of his after he had written:
“Joseph of Arimathaea still had time to go to the markets and purchase fine linen ....(Mark 15:46) ......” something he could not do if Passover had already started the evening before, for it ranked as High a Sabbath as the 7th day Sabbath, and there could be no marketing....no buying and selling. So Mark himself clears up the issue by letting us know that the Last Supper was a special time designated by Our Lord to eat the Passover with his disciples. The actual national Passover was the next evening.”
JV wrote this unbroken passage of his under heading of where “In Mark 15:42 it says, “And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the Sabbath (of Unleavened Bread).” JV also inserted, “....(Mark 15:46)”. Then he identifies every kind of ‘sabbath’ which he lists in the quoted section : “Passover” that “had already started”; “High Sabbath” “the 7th day Sabbath”; “the Last Supper .... special time designated .... to eat the Passover”, with this day thus demarcated in Mark 15:42–46, “the Sabbath (of Unleavened Bread)”. “The actual national Passover was the next evening.”
Now I believe, JV understands or does not understand the chronology and sequence of days, so :
Joseph of Arimathaea in Mark 15:42 goes to purchase fine linen (Mark 15:46), “Passover” “the Sabbath (of Unleavened Bread)” Abib15, the evening after because “It was something (Joseph) could not do if Passover had already started the evening before”.
So Joseph bought the linen on the day he could not buy it on, “the Sabbath (of Unleavened Bread)”? Or, Jesus was crucified on the day he could not be crucified on?
Therefore maybe, JV understands or does not understand the chronology and sequence of days, so :
Because to buy “was something (Joseph) could not do if Passover had already started the evening before” (Wednesday evening), he could not have ‘bought’, as long as it was ‘Passover’ until sunset still. So Joseph could not buy on Wednesday evening (.... why would he, since Jesus was not even crucified yet?) nor could he have bought linen on Thursday afternoon, because Mark says it had become evening and it was afternoon no longer when Joseph did buy. .... and JV tells us it would have been unlawful for Joseph to have done.
But Joseph could not buy linen after the day of Crucifixion because by “now”, “it had become evening and was the day of Preparation already” and JV is of the opinion buying linen “was something (Joseph) could not do if Passover had already started” – whether having started “the evening before” or sunset the evening after, the evening of “now”.
It didn’t matter if Joseph could not buy linen on the evening after the Thursday JV says Jesus was crucified on, or if Joseph could not buy linen on the evening before the Thursday that JV says Jesus was crucified on. Joseph had no chance to purchase the linen ––– according to JV.
So did Joseph buy the linen or is Mark telling a story?
Now just say Joseph could buy linen despite it was the sabbath of the passover high day and unleavened bread, would there have been any discrepancies or impossibilities left?
No, not one.
Therefore Joseph actually, the evening after Crucifixion–day, beginning of Sixth Day, ‘Friday’, ‘Thursday evening’, when “The Preparation which is the Fore–Sabbath” and – according to John – “that day that was a great day sabbath” had had begun – calmly, sure and assuredly, had left the body where Pilate had ordered it to be delivered to him, and went and bought linen, having transgressed no single law in all the Holy Law Book of God, but obeying the call of Christian faith’s duty.
That’s how I have it in ‘my book’ also.
O no! JV protests; you are supposing Joseph bought linen after sunset; I am saying he bought the linen before the sun had set before the fall of night, while it was still afternoon on Crucifixion day and not unleavened bread feast sabbath yet. Because to buy, JV protests, was “.... something he could not do if Passover had already started the evening before, for it ranked as High a Sabbath as the 7th day Sabbath, and there could be no marketing....no buying and selling.”
I answer, JV, Joseph then could also not have bought the linen because what you here are saying is simply again, “.... something he could not do if Passover had already started the evening before”, and while still before sunset afternoon of “Passover”, that “ranked as High a Sabbath as the 7th day Sabbath, and there could be no marketing....no buying and selling”. You are contradicting yourself. Why have I to say it for you, that you are contradicting the straight forward statements from the pen of Mark?
Dear JV, why did you say, “something Joseph could not do if Passover had already started the evening before” but while ‘Passover’ was still going on “before sundown” could do? Or do you believe a Wednesday Crucifixion? How come then you said you believed a Thursday Crucifixion?
So Mark himself clears up the issue by letting us know that the Last Supper was a special time designated by Our Lord to eat the Passover with his disciples before He was crucified on the day of passover that “they always had to kill the passover” Abib 14, but right after it had begun : Mk14:12,17 / Mt26:17,20; Lk22:7,14; Jn13:1, 1Cor11:23b. .....
“The actual national Passover was the next evening”, Jn18:28 x Jn19:31. Yes! Absolutely, yes!
Which was, the ‘actual national Passover’? Friday evening after the day the passover lamb was killed on, the Sixth Day of the week beginning when “the 7 Day feast of Unleavened Bread began at Sundown that evening with a Passover meal”— Abib 15. (“That evening”: the evening after “Jesus (had) died at 3:00 Thursday afternoon”. (“Thursday .....” : “Passover (that) had already started the evening before” or ‘Wednesday evening’.)
Did Jesus have “a Passover meal” with his disciples after he had “died at 3:00 Thursday afternoon” and had been buried? No. He and his disciples sat at table the night before He was crucified, and “The actual national Passover was the next evening”.
JV:
“This we believe is the explanation of the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ..... Jesus died at 3:00 Thursday afternoon. Passover was that evening. Thursday itself was called “The Preparation Day”. The 7 Day feast of Unleavened Bread began at Sundown that evening with a Passover meal. That same sundown Thursday evening began their Sabbath–High–Holy Day rest. This was not their Saturday–Sabbath rest, which starts on Friday evening. This was their High–Holy–Day–of–Rest, the feast of Unleavened Bread.”
GE:
Unobtrusive in there, are two subtle statements of JV’s,
1) “Passover was that evening. Thursday itself ....”;
2) “Thursday itself was called “The Preparation Day”.”
Yes, “Passover was that evening, and passover was, “Thursday itself”. But just so was Friday, and Saturday, and the Wednesday before; and even the Sunday before— “Observe ye the month of Abib” as Passover–Month, especially “from the tenth day of the First Month” etc.,
1) until on the fourteenth day of the First Month it was ‘passover’; but ‘passover’ “when they always killed the passover (lamb)”; and
2) until on the fifteenth day of the First Month it was ‘passover’, but ‘passover’ when they always ate the passover lamb; and when also always the great day sabbath of the passover was— having been the first day they also always ate unleavened bread of the passover.
Therefore having said that “Jesus died at 3:00 Thursday afternoon. Passover was that evening. Thursday itself was called “The Preparation Day”, is tantamount to declaring exactly what JV declared without blushing, “Here we have Mark calling 2 different days, days of “preparation”. One the day before Jesus died, and one on the day that Jesus died.” Joe means, ‘back to back’, chronologically consecutive days, both of them.
So what is the result because JV didn’t write, Mark calling ‘one day the day after Jesus died’, “The Preparation which is the Fore–Sabbath”, and so implying the other, the day Jesus died ....? So what is the result JV instead, actually wrote, “Here we have Mark calling 2 different days, days of “preparation”. One the day before Jesus died, and one on the day that Jesus died” ....? The result is that besides that JV gave no ‘explanation’ and could not have come to arguable ‘conclusion’, he is trying to propagate great delusion.
What delusion? That “Here we have Mark calling 2 different days, days of “preparation”. One the day before Jesus died, and one on the day that Jesus died”.
Why a delusion?
Where is “here”? “Here”, “In Mark 15:42”, where “it says, “And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the Sabbath (of Unleavened Bread).” Because here in 15:42, Mark is speaking of “The Preparation that is the day before the Sabbath” and that also coincidentally had been the day “of Unleavened Bread” and “great day sabbath” of passover as John called it, fifteenth day of the First Month and Sixth Day of the week at once, “It having been evening already”.
At this point in time, who is it who act? The Jews to crucify Jesus? No! Joseph, to bury Jesus!
Now what is further wrong about JV’s time–scheme? That JV ascribes the start of this, “great day sabbath”, the start of the passover’s and first unleavened bread’s Feast Day–sabbath, to the day before, this day, to the day of Jesus’ crucifixion!
What is further wrong is that JV ascribes this day’s ‘evening–beginning’ to the day before this day, to “Passover had already started the evening before”— to the day past and finished, to the day of Jesus’ crucifixion and his having remained on the cross, forlorn and deserted by all! Lk23:48–49.
What is further wrong is that JV tears from the passover’s sabbath day its evening–beginning, and pastes it onto the day that had finished before it; that had closed when the sun had set and “evening having had come, it was The Preparation .... that great day–sabbath” of passover, ‘Friday’, after, ‘Thursday’, and not, “the evening before”, Thursday.
And if things could not get worse, JV concocted his chronology and bungled his days despite the eye catching and attention demanding, glaring presence of “the day they had to kill the passover” and “always, killed the passover on” and had to “remove leaven on / day without leaven”, Ex12:14, mentioned and implied and taken as landmark in time, in each of the four Gospels; placed, conspicuously, at the beginning–time and important event of that Fifth Day’s (‘Wednesday–’) “evening”, namely, The Last Supper “In the evening / when the evening had come” Mk14:12,17 / Mt26:17,20; Lk22:7,14; Jn13:1, 1Cor11:23b ..... twenty four hours before the day or the time of day referred to “here in Mark 15:42”!
JV:
“This investigation into Mark’s Gospel would apply to Matthew’s and Luke’s account as well. The Synoptic writers wrote of Christ’s designated Passover, while John wrote of the actual national day of the Jewish Passover.”
GE:
JV is saying nothing at all, except to imply the Synoptists contradict John; which is yet another of JV’s unfounded assumptions. In fact, it’s not even JV’s assumption, but one he borrows from virtually everyone before him who had given this mere supposition space in their vacuous thinking. Both the Synoptic writers and John wrote of Christ’s designated Passover, date and day of which coincided with ‘the Jewish’ and ‘Bible’, passover. The Last Supper was that “special time designated by Our Lord” to “prepare”, ‘to eat the Passover’ in His own being and by own Goings Through: “Eat ... drink .... for this is my flesh .... this, my blood.”
The Last Supper in fact was the entering of Christ upon his “designated Passover”; his descending into hell suffering dying and death, was Jesus’ ‘designated Passover’. “Truly the Son of Man goeth as it was determined.” Lk22:22a. “That this which is written must yet be accomplished in Me.” 37.
“Christ’s designated Passover” involved more than the first day of God’s Passover. “Christ’s designated Passover” was the date and every of “three days and three nights” “according to the Scriptures .... how that Christ died, and how that He was buried, and how that He arose again the third day”.
“Christ’s designated Passover” as far as his descent into hell having suffered dying and death was concerned, particularly involved the first of these three days when “in the same night that He was betrayed”, “this is your hour, and the power of darkness”. 53. “My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death.” Mk14:34a.
“The
“The Son of Man goeth as it is written of Him.”
Mt26:24. “I will not drink of this
fruit of the vine until that day
when I drink it new with you in my Father’s Kingdom.” 29. “I will not eat of this passover until it be fulfilled in the
In the same night Jesus declared: “Now is the hour .... for the Son to glorify the Father .... now
is the hour for .... the
[ God’s Kingdom from the perspective of the disciple:—
“If I should die with
Thee, I will not deny Thee in any wise.” Mk14:31. “Whither I go, thou canst not follow Me now; but thou
shalt follow Me afterwards.” 36. “Until
that day that I drink it new in the
Therefore, The Kingdom of God is Jesus’ through suffering dying and death having entered into the Kingdom His Own and the Father’s Glory. If one understand the essence, one might understand the order of the Passover of Jesus Christ. Never could the essence be deduced from the order; and never the essence without the order. Jesus is “The Lamb of God”; but “our Passover” and Passover Lamb of God. “For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins : according to the Scriptures; indeed, how that He was buried; in fact, how, that He rose again the third day : according to the Scriptures”— according to the passover Scriptures!
This is the only way in which this investigation into Mark’s Gospel would apply to Matthew’s and Luke’s and John’s accounts, all the same. The Gospel writers all in accord wrote of Christ’s ‘designated Passover’, ‘the actual national day of the Jewish Passover’ to have begun, ‘here’ : Mk14:12/17; Mt26:17/20; Lk22:7/14; Jn13:1; so did Paul in 1Cor11:23; on which day the Passover Lamb of God’s Kingdom .....
One: .....
..... would be slaughtered.
This is the explanation of the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ on the day before the day that had begun “here in Mark 15:42”: Jesus died at 3:00 Thursday afternoon. It was the Passover— “The Preparation of the Passover”, Jn19:14, “when the passover must be killed”, Lk22:7b, and
Two: .....
..... leaven must be removed, Ex12:18–19. In the Gospels—
“the day of de–leaven”, “the day–of–unleaven”, ‘adzymos’, Mk14:12a/Mt26:17a/Lk22:7a, Jn13:1 / 28:8 x 19:14/31.
After which: .....
“That same sundown Thursday evening began their Sabbath–High–Holy Day rest. This was not their Saturday–Sabbath rest, which starts on Friday evening.”
“This”— “here in Mark 15:42”, “that same sundown Thursday evening began”, and was, ‘Friday itself called’
“The Preparation Day which is the Fore–Sabbath”, “The Jews’ Preparation” during which....
1) that “evening” would be:
Passover Feast Sabbath of Unleavened Bread (Jn18:28x19:31),
on which the seven days’ Feast of Unleavened Bread
had had begun after sundown, “here”, “now”, “in Mark 15:42”,
and, in that “evening” in that “night to be observed”,
‘a Passover meal’ consisting of the cooked passover’s sacrifice, and
“together with”
it,
“unleavened bread”,
would be “eaten”. Ex12:8.
“Here in Mark 15:42”, “This”— “that same sundown Thursday evening began”, and was, ‘Friday itself, called’ “The Preparation Day which is the Fore–Sabbath” and “The Jews’ Preparation”,
during which Joseph, that “evening” would ....
2) prepare to bury the body of Jesus, Mk15:42, Jn19:31; and,
“the same day” daylight following (Dt21:22–23), would ....
“lay the body” and “close the grave door”, Lk23:54–56, Jn19:42—
well “before the pending Sabbath, mid–afternoon”, Lk23:54.
2B) This is also the only way in which ‘This investigation into Mark’s Gospel’, “Here, in Mark15:42”, ‘would apply’ all the same to Matthew’s and Luke’s and John’s accounts of Jesus’ interment in Mt27:57, Lk23:50–53 and Jn19:31/38,
as well as ‘would apply’ in Lk23:54–56 and Jn19:42 to Jesus’ interment when finished and not when beginning! (Not to Jesus’ crucifixion in any way!)
“Here, in Mark15:42”, Mark, like the other Synoptic writers and John, wrote of “Christ’s designated Passover” and “national day of the Jewish Passover” of Unleavened Bread .... “their High–Holy–Day–of–Rest, the feast of Unleavened Bread” in actual fact— of ‘Friday itself called’ “The Preparation Day which is the Fore–Sabbath” and “great day sabbath” (Jn19:31), on which the seven days’ ‘Feast (of Passover)’ began after sundown on Thursday evening and on which the passover’s sacrifice was eaten; and in the following daylight of ‘Friday itself’, its “remains” were removed and returned to the earth, confirming, “In Mark 15:42 it says, “And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation which is the day before”, “their 7th day Sabbath”.
Because here we have Mark and John, calling two different days, the very day of “preparation”. One, the day which was, “The Preparation which is the Fore–Sabbath”, Mark. (The day after Jesus died and not as JV pretends, “the day before Jesus died”.) And the other, “that day (that) was a great day sabbath” (John), the day the very same which was “The Preparation which is the Fore–Sabbath” and day after Jesus had died and not as JV pretends, “the day that Jesus died”.
So do I argue, the “pending Sabbath” (‘epefohsken sabbaton’), was in fact, “their 7th day Sabbath”; in fact, “The Sabbath according to the (Fourth) Commandment”. Lk23:56.
And so Mark himself clears up the issue by letting us know that he never “here, in Mark15:42”, wrote about “the Last Supper” or, about “a special time designated by Our Lord to eat the Passover with his disciples”.
JV:
“A CHOICE
As with all Scripture interpretation, one can accept or reject these
deductions. But they are sound and are also supported by Scripture.
Satan would love to keep the Church confused in as many issues as possible. Only the Holy Spirit can enlighten truth to
individuals.”
GE:
How is it possible “one can accept or reject” ‘Scripture interpretation’ that is “sound and also supported by Scripture”, and in the last analysis is ‘truth’, ‘the Holy Spirit’, ‘enlightened’? Surely yes, “Satan would love to keep the Church confused in as many issues as possible” if ‘truth’ and truthful ‘interpretation’ depended on “a choice” of “individuals”.
JV:
“The Lord has the
final say in this matter. He said that He was in the heart of the earth for 3
days and 3 nights, and Scripture records His resurrection on the first day of
the week, Sunday. That leaves no other conclusion than that Jesus was crucified
on a Thursday.
HIGH–HOLY DAY SABBATH
You see, Passover is tied to a specific date, Nisan 14. Since it is tied to a
specific date, it can occur on any day of the week, as the calendar rotates
year after year.”
GE:
“The Lord has the final say in this matter”, yet, it is a matter of “a choice” of “individuals”?
The Lord “said that He was in the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights, and Scripture records His resurrection on the first day of the week, Sunday”? True, the Lord did say “that He was”, or would have been, “in the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights”. That’s one thing. It’s another to say, The “Scripture records His resurrection on the first day of the week, Sunday”.
I have spent my money on other vanities in the meantime, or I would have offered all money I might have had if you could quote where “Scripture records His resurrection on the first day of the week, Sunday”. I mean, real ‘Scripture’ despite would you have said ‘Sunday’ in stead of ‘The First Day of the week’.
‘Truth’ is, neither the Scriptures or the Lord “records His resurrection on the first day of the week, Sunday”.
That Jesus “said that He was in the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights”, does not ‘leave the conclusion’ of “His resurrection on the first day of the week, Sunday”.
Besides, how do you count :
“3 Days:
Sometime Thursday before Sundown
Friday....12 hours (6 to 6)
Saturday....12 hours (6 to 6)
3 Nights
Thursday night....12 hours (6 to 6)
Friday night....12 hours (6 to 6)
Saturday night....12 hours (6 to 6)
This time frame would not have to be a specific 72 hour period, but it would
have to be a minimum of 60 hours + additional hours”,
Yet, arrive at
“Scripture records His resurrection on the first day of the week, Sunday”?
By dividing every of the “three days” “according to the Scriptures”!
You demolish the unity of each real ‘day’ “according to the Scriptures” of Abib 14, 15 and 16, and of the Fifth, the Sixth and the Seventh Days “according to the Scriptures” (of each consisting of night part first and day–part last) and create your own, false, three days and three nights which are no “three days”, but six halves of four, independent days :
1) Of (Thursday) the Fifth Day’s last (day) halve, you make the Sixth Day’s first halve;
2) Of (Friday) the Sixth Day’s first (night) halve, you make the Fifth Day’s last halve;
3) Of (Friday) the Sixth Day’s last (day) halve, you make the Seventh Day’s first (day) halve;
4) Of (Saturday) the Seventh Day’s first (night) halve, you make the Sixth Day’s last halve;
5) Of (Saturday) the Seventh Day’s last (day) halve, you make ..... the First Day’s first halve? ..... If you were consistent you would, and would place the Resurrection on Saturday the Seventh Day’s last (day) halve!
But you
6) of Sunday the ‘First Day’, its night–half, attempt to make ‘the third day’— while “according to the Scriptures” the ‘First Day of the week’ or whichever part of it by all logic or sequence or name or count or Bible reckoning of the day–cycle, cannot be “the third day”, but must— if “Jesus died at 3:00 Thursday afternoon”, be the fourth day : Thursday, 1; Friday, 2; Saturday, 3; Sunday, 4.
Therefore your statement:
“3 Days:
Sometime Thursday before Sundown
Friday....12 hours (6 to 6)
Saturday....12 hours (6 to 6)
3 Nights
Thursday night....12 hours (6 to 6)
Friday night....12 hours (6 to 6)
Saturday night....12 hours (6 to 6)
.....
This we believe is the explanation of the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ”,
is calculatedly false while you obviously hide the fact “Saturday night....12 hours (6 to 6)” was the night of another day than ‘day’ of “the third day according to the Scriptures”, the Seventh Day, (‘Saturday....12 hours (6 to 6)’). Of course you knew “Saturday night” is first halve of the First Day of the week!
The “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” the passover–Scriptures, are no loose standing “3 Days” and “3 Nights” merely. They are “three days” both “according to the Scriptures” of passover, prophetically the first three ‘first days’ of passover, and “according to the Scriptures’” determination or ‘law of days’, ‘days’ of ‘night and day’ beginning from sunset going on until afternoon until sunset; not, beginning from sunrise going on until morning until sunrise.
JV:
“The Lord has the final say in this matter. He said that He was in the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights, and Scripture records His resurrection on the first day of the week, Sunday. That leaves no other conclusion than that Jesus was crucified on a Thursday.”
GE:
‘Not so’. The Lord has the final say in this matter because He was the Passover Lamb of God Himself. He said – speaking from the viewpoint of his having overcome death and grave – that He would have been in the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights, and Scripture records Him also as saying that He would rise “the third day” or “in three days”. The Scriptures actually recorded Jesus as saying He would “the third day, finish”, just like “God the Seventh Day finished”, in that He “the Seventh Day from all His works, rested”. Matthew in fact records Jesus’ resurrection, “On the Sabbath Day in its fullness, mid–afternoon before the First Day of the week.” ‘That leaves no other conclusion than that Jesus was crucified on a Thursday.’ The Fifth Day night and day; the Sixth Day night and day; the Seventh Day night and day “On the Sabbath”, “in Sabbath’s daylight being mid–afternoon”, literally, specifically, and precisely, “three days and three nights”, “the third day according to the Scriptures”.
This count of the ‘three–days–and–three–nights’–‘three–days’, is the only explanation that can account for the first “night to be observed”— “the night” (Wednesday night), “wherein the Lord was betrayed” and He ‘passed through’ through suffering of both dying and death by the “exceeding sorrowful(ness) of (his) soul even unto death.”
JV:
“.... the DAY within the week of our birthday changes each year, as the calendar rotates. .... It is the same with Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread. It occurs on whatever weekday the 14th of Nisan falls.”
GE:
This statement is correct in two respects:
1) In respect of the principle that “the 14th of Nisan falls .... on whatever weekday .... as the calendar rotates”; and
2) as far as “Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread”, on “the 14th of Nisan” will be found in only the Book of Exodus being the only Bible Book that also dates “the Feast of Unleavened Bread” on “the 14th of Nisan”. But every other book that dates ‘passover’ when it was “the Feast of Unleavened Bread” (and when also the passover sacrifice was eaten) dates it on the 15th of Nisan— without exception.
JV:
“The year Our Lord died, it (“the 14th Nisan”) fell on a Thursday evening. Thursday–DAY was the day of Preparation. Our Lord died 3 hours before the Passover Meal (at the exact time they slaughtered the lambs).”
GE:
Sorry to interrupt; but you confuse just about every aspect of the day involved.
“The year Our Lord died, it (“the 14th Nisan”) fell on a Thursday evening.” That is – you, JV – saying, ‘on Friday’! Nisan 14 fell on Thursday and that was Nisan 14 that had begun on ‘Wednesday evening’.
You confuse these Scriptures, Mk14:42/Mt27:57, Jn19:31/38, Lk23:50, for Mk14:12/17; Mt26:17/20, Lk22:7/14, Jn13:1/29, 18:28, 19:14. You confuse the beginning of the Sixth Day (Friday), for the beginning of the Fifth Day (Thursday).
And, you confuse these same Scriptures Mk14:42/Mt27:57, Jn19:31/38, Lk23:50, for Lk23:54–56 / Jn19:42. You confuse the beginning of the Sixth Day (Thursday evening), for its ending (Friday afternoon).
“Thursday–DAY was the day of Preparation.” Thursday was “The Preparation of the Passover”— it was no ‘ordinary’, “day of Preparation”. You should distinguish between the ‘Preparation Day’ mentioned in “here in Mark 15:42” and “The Preparation of Passover” mentioned in John 19:14. Crucifixion was on “The Preparation of Passover” Abib 14 “the day leaven was removed” and “when they had to kill the passover”; “the Feast of Unleavened Bread” fell on “The Preparation which is the Fore–Sabbath”, ‘Friday’, Abib 15 the day they always ate the passover sacrifice.
“Our Lord died 3 hours before the Passover Meal (at the exact time they slaughtered the lambs).” No, our Lord died 3 hours before end of day, 3 hours before sunset; “the Passover Meal” was taken in the beginning of day the following night after sunset.
“The Passover meal was in three more hours.” The Passover meal was in more than three more hours. Mark 15:42 and John 19:31 are clear “It had had been evening already” when first the Jews and after them, Joseph, did what they did; which had to have been after they have had their ‘passover meal’— cf. Jn18:28 and 19:31.
“That is why Joseph of Arimathaea and Nicodemus craved the Body of Jesus from Pilate (Mark 15:43).... “ which is wrong in that Joseph on his own went in to Pilate to ask; he went “in secret” so that not even Nicodemus could have known at that point in time of night. Nicodemus who also “the first time came to Jesus in the night”, only later in the night “arrived there” where Joseph had had the body delivered already in order to prepare it for “proper burial as the laws of the Jews demanded”.
“.... so that they could anoint and bury Jesus’ body, before the High Holy Sabbath–Feast, which would begin in a few hours.” How many are your “few hours”, JV? “A few hours” mean at least two hours. So from that Joseph appeared on the scene, he within one only hour had closed the grave; two hours before sunset, “and went home”, Mt27:60c. That, you say, happened on Thursday afternoon. Part represents whole; therefore the two hours of Thursday left, you should reckon for one day of daylight. And you have established, you claim, Jesus resurrected on Sunday morning; which He must have after sunrise, if we may judge by John 20 from verse 11 on where Mary saw Jesus for the gardener who by then had started work, and assumed as Jesus once said, the day has 12 hours to work, it would have been after sunrise by the time Mary saw Jesus? Had it been then that He actually had risen, you have four daylight parts representing four days of daylight; not three only. You did say 60 plus hours, did you not, Joe? Are those ‘plus hours’ these of Sunday morning?
Truth is, JV, you, do not have “three days”; you at the same time have more than three “days” and, less than “three” days; more parts than three days’ parts; and much less than three days’ hours.
Of course it’s inexplicable. Nevertheless, this does explain it somehow, “Thursday–DAY was the day of Preparation.” “Thursday–DAY” was Crucifixion–day. You don’t recognise Thursday for having been ‘passover’ in good right. You cut it off from the actual passover, and make of it “the day of Preparation”— cutting away also the words of John that it was “The Preparation OF Passover”.
Nisan 14 IS ‘Passover’. It says how many times, “They kept passover ON the fourteenth day”, meaning they slaughtered the passover sacrifice (“during day–time” – ‘behn–ha–arbayim’ of passover proper) on, passover proper.
First Day of Unleavened Bread FEAST of seven days, was second day of the Passover of eight days Feast. “The Preparation OF Passover” was passover first of all and foremost.
JV:
“This Sabbath was not the Saturday–Sabbath which begins on Friday evening. This was the High Holy Day Sabbath, which that year fell on a Thursday evening and Friday–DAY. In other words, the HOLY DAY Sabbath (Passover–Unleavened Bread) was followed by their 7th day Saturday–Sabbath, thereby having a double–Sabbath, back–to–back.”
GE:
Absolutely right! The core and key and essence of everything else as far as understanding the days and dates and times of Jesus’ Passover is concerned! How could you get so confused, dear JV?
JV:
“..... Here is what
Matthew 28:1 says: [ KJV Authorized ]
“In the END of the Sabbath, AS IT BEGAN TO DAWN toward the first day of the
week (Sunday), came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.”
It doesn’t get much plainer than that . Jesus arose Sunday ( AFTER the Saturday–Sabbath
was ended) on the 1st day of the week.”
GE:
It doesn’t get much plainer obfuscated than that. Jesus
arose on the Sabbath : “Here is what Matthew 28:1 says: [ KJV
Authorized ]
“IN the end OF the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week ....” It doesn’t get plainer than that at all : “Sabbath’s”;
“ON the SABBATH”; “In Sabbath’S–TIME”; “By Sabbath’s FULLNESS”; “Sabbath’s
mid–afternoon”; “towards / before the First Day”, etcetera— ANYTHING BUT, quote: “AFTER the
Saturday–Sabbath was ended on the 1st day of the week”.
It cannot be discussed!
And so obviously you must have sensed, because this was how you stopped your ‘arguing’ with reference to Matthew 28:1.
JV:
“Matthew 12:40 tells
us that Jesus had to be in the earth for 3 days and 3 nights:
“For as Jonas was 3 days and 3 nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of
Man be three days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth”.
Our Lord did not speak in “idioms”. He always spoke with mathematical accuracy
and truth. Backing up 3 nights, we know then that Saturday night, Friday night,
and Thursday night, Jesus was in the heart of the earth.”
GE:
No, you don’t; that’s what you allege you, or, ‘we know’. You don’t know any such things from the Scriptures because you cannot know any such things from the Scriptures. You ‘know’ this here stated things from your own presuming of them.
“Our Lord did not speak in “idioms”. He always spoke with mathematical accuracy and truth.” That is nonsense and untrue, and you know it. The very case in hand is one of our Lord’s speaking in figure or symbolically – in “idioms” – as you have it. “The Son of Man shall be three days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth”, yes. Yes, “three days and three nights” Jesus clearly intended literally; no problem. But just as clearly Jesus meant his words “shall be in the heart of the earth” both idiomatically and figuratively. “Shall be” is the idiomatic use of Tense for retrospective Past affirmation. “In the heart of the earth” is figurative, symbolic language of concepts, or metaphor, definitely not by any stretch of the imagination applicable or true if “spoke(n) with mathematical accuracy and truth”. And that is exactly with mathematical accuracy where JV loses grip on both reality and truth.
Listen to what Jesus said, “For as Jonas was three (literal) days and three (literal) nights in the whale’s (literal) belly; so shall the Son of Man (literally) three (literal) days and three (literal) nights (of three literal Scriptural passover–days), (figuratively, symbolically, metaphorically) be in the (figurative, symbolical, metaphorical) heart of the (figurative, symbolical, metaphorical) earth.”
Figuratively, symbolically, metaphorically “in the heart of the earth” is what makes all the difference between going wrong or keeping right. Not that literal, ‘mathematical accuracy’ also make a difference; it does. Let us begin to apply this literal, ‘mathematical accuracy and truth’ to our understanding of Matthew 28:1. So that we shall find that we are to start “Backing up 3 days”, not “from Sunday”, but from “On the Sabbath” if we intend to reckon inclusively. Because we know that Jesus literally and mathematically accurate and true had to have been “in the heart of the earth” —not “in the grave” as JV has it—, “three days and three nights” all inclusively; —not as JV has it “in the grave Saturday, Friday and part of Thursday before Sundown”!
We need to translate into Biblical ‘idiom’ to understand! We know that Jesus had to be in the “heart of the earth”, Sabbath part of daytime and whole of night time; the Sixth Day all of daytime as well as all of night time; and the Fifth Day all of daytime as well as all of night time. But we also know that Jesus had to be in the “grave”, Sabbath part of daytime and whole of night time; and the Sixth Day all but twenty one hours! Both things we know with both literal and mathematical accuracy and truth, and, idiomatic, figurative, symbolical, metaphorical accuracy and truth.
We know with literal and mathematical accuracy and truth that Jesus was in the grave Sabbath part of daytime and whole of night time; the Sixth Day part of daytime and prepared for the grave part of night time; and the Fifth Day no part or time in the grave or prepared for the grave, at all, because on the Fifth Day they crucified Him.
We know with idiomatic, figurative, symbolical, metaphorical accuracy and truth that Jesus was “in the heart of the earth” while suffering dying and death Sabbath, part of daytime and whole of night time; the Sixth Day, all of daytime and all of night time; and the Fifth Day, all of daytime as well as all of night time.
We know with literal and mathematical accuracy and truth “how that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures (the first day of passover, Abib 14); and how that He was buried (according to the Scriptures the second first day of passover, Abib 15); and how that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures (the third first day of passover, Abib 16).”
We pray that we, with idiomatic, figurative, symbolical, metaphorical accuracy and truth, “might know Him and the power of his resurrection”, and with literal and mathematical accuracy and truth “the third day according to the Scriptures” of his resurrection from the dead:— “On the Sabbath”.
Therefore we without a shadow of a doubt now know the above would also have been possible by “backing up 3 days from Sunday” if “from Sunday” with literal, mathematical accuracy and truth were exclusively understood.
Therefore we without a shadow of a doubt now know the above would also have been possible by “backing up 3 days from Sunday” if ‘Jesus was in the grave from Thursday night’ with literal, mathematical accuracy and truth were exclusively understood, because Joseph and Nicodemus laid the body of Jesus in the tomb on “the Day of Preparation which is the Fore–Sabbath”, “while the Sabbath was pending mid–afternoon”— ‘Friday’ only.
Therefore we without a shadow of a doubt now know the above would also have been possible by exclusively “backing up 3 days from Sunday” if with both literal, mathematical accuracy and truth, and, idiomatic, figurative, symbolical, metaphorical accuracy and truth, the fact “Our Lord Thursday was in the heart of the earth” all day, day and night, is inclusively understood, “three days and three nights” of “three days”, “according to the Scriptures” the passover–Scriptures.
‘There you have it.’
JV:
“Matthew 28:1 is
Absolutely 100 % accurate when it states that Jesus arose on Sunday.
Matthew 12:40 is Absolutely 100 % accurate when it states that Jesus was in the
grave 3 days and 3 nights.”
GE:
Just old errors over–emphasised.
“Matthew 28:1 is Absolutely 100 % accurate when it states that Jesus arose on Sunday.” Wrong. No, false! Matthew 28:1 is absolutely 100% accurate when it states that Jesus arose, quote: “In the Sabbath”. Where you should be ‘mathematically accurate and truthful’, dear JV, you are not; and as a result also ‘idiomatically’ are inaccurate and untruthful.
“Matthew 12:40 is Absolutely 100 % accurate when it states that Jesus was in the grave 3 days and 3 nights.” Wrong. No, false! Matthew 12:40 is absolutely 100% accurate when it states that Jesus was, quote: “in the heart of the earth, three days and three nights.” Where you should be ‘idiomatically’ or rather by figure of speech or metaphorically be ‘accurate and truthful’, dear JV, you are not, and as a result you are also ‘mathematically’, inaccurate and untruthful.
JV:
“John 19:31 is Absolutely 100% accurate when it tells us that the Sabbath immediately following Jesus death was the Sabbath of their High Holy Day, the Feast of Unleavened Bread (Exodus 12:15–17), and that this was not to be confused with their 7th day Sabbath.”
GE:
All error, it is said, contains some element of truth.
JV:
“Luke 24:21 is 100% accurate when it states “and besides all this, today is the third day since these things were done”. (Sunday Luke 24:1 and 24:13)”
GE:
And which were “these things done”? They are these: quote:
“How the chief priests (first glimmer of daylight Lk23:66, Mk15:1)
and our rulers delivered Him to be condemned to death (Jn19:14,
6 a.m. Thursday morning) and crucified. (9 a.m. Mk15:25)
But we trusted that it had been He that should have
redeemed
today is the third day since these things (on that
day) were done.
Next thing we know, certain women also of our company who were at the sepulchre earliest this morning, surprised us. .... They found not his body.” Cf. 24:1.
What are you, telling us, JV? That “today (Sunday) is the third day since these things were done”? Fine! What are you saying? Who objected? Then how does “Backing up 3 days from Sunday” prove “.... we know that Jesus had to be in the grave, Saturday, Friday and part of Thursday before Sundown”? Where do you read about a grave or a burial back then? Sunday morning was the first time these disciples learned about the grave, when the women “surprised” them, having informed them on the grave and the missing body!
JV:
“How do we know that
Jesus’ Triumphant entry into
Let’s say we have a “Passover Calendar”, much like our “Advent calendars”.
These calendars mark DAY ONE on the actual anticipated day itself. Counting
backwards in anticipation would be like this:
Passover...day one ( in this case, a Thursday night)
Wednesday...day two
Tuesday....day three
Monday...day four
Sunday...day five
Saturday...day six (in perfect agreement with John 12:1)”
GE:
Everything fine, unfortunately for “Passover...day one ( in this case, a Thursday night)”
Abib 9 : “Saturday...day six (in perfect agreement with John 12:1)”
Abib 10 : “Sunday...day five / “on the next day” “
Abib 11 : “Monday...day four”
Abib 12 : “Tuesday....day three”
Abib 13 : “Wednesday...day two”
Abib 14 : “Passover...day one (in this case, a Thursday ....”— not “a Thursday night”, but a Wednesday night and Thursday day : ‘the Fifth Day’ in Bible idiom. “Preparation of the Passover” Jn19:14.
Abib 15 : “The 7 Day feast of Unleavened Bread began at Sundown that evening” .... “in this case, a Thursday night” being the beginning of the Sixth Day and “The Preparation which is the Fore–Sabbath”, Friday. According to Jn19:31, “great day sabbath”.
Abib 16 : “The day after the sabbath (of passover) thou shalt wave First Sheaf Offering Before the LORD.” Seventh Day Sabbath.
JV:
“That would make Sunday the 10th; Monday the 11th; Tuesday the 12th; Wednesday the 13th; and Thursday the 14th of Nisan, the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ, our Passover Lamb.”
GE:
Indeed! Why then have you not noticed that 15th of Nisan must have been “feast of Unleavened Bread .... at Sundown that evening” of Thursday, the Fifth Day, ‘Friday’, starting? Another day, and that impossibly we “Here” can “have Mark calling 2 different days, days of “preparation”. One the day before Jesus died, and one on the day that Jesus died”!
JV:
“Yes, Jesus our Passover Lamb was crucified and died at 3:00 Thursday afternoon, just as the High Priest slew the Passover Lamb. Jesus was laid in His tomb before Sundown, still reckoning it to be Thursday. He was in the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights and rose gloriously on Easter morning, Sunday morning.”
GE:
You are only repeating your untruths based on nothing but presumption.
It is not true, but a lie,
1) that “Jesus was laid in His tomb before Sundown .... Thursday afternoon”;
It is not true, but a lie,
2) that when “Jesus was laid in His tomb before Sundown”,
the Gospels are “still reckoning it to be Thursday”,
because Mark, Luke and John expressly state, Friday beginning,
“that great day sabbath .... The Preparation .... which
is
the Fore–Sabbath .... evening having come”,
Joseph began to undertake, and “by the Jews’ preparation (time)”, “mid–afternoon towards the Sabbath”, had finished.
Therefore, that “He rose on Easter morning, Sunday morning”, is most blatant an untruth for the defence of which the Scriptures even are fearlessly fiddled and diddled. Sunday–worship!
JV:
“The Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke) present a time–sequence that appears different from John’s. Why?”
GE:
There is no discrepancy; they perfectly are in agreement. You ask “Why?” knowing full well the question already, is faked.
JV:
“Mark’s Gospel reads:
“And the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they killed the Passover, His
disciples said unto Him, ‘Where wilt Thou that we go and prepare that Thou
mayest eat the Passover?’
Mark 14:12 “and they made ready the Passover” Mark 14:16
This 14th Chapter appears to be a contradiction of the other Gospel accounts,
especially John’s Gospel which parallels Christ’s crucifixion at the same time
that the Passover Lamb was being slain in the Temple. (John 19:14)
Since the Gospels cannot contradict one another, we must start with absolute
fact and then, by deduction, explain the reason for the apparent discrepancy.
GE:
See what I mean! You assert – and although you say it lastly, you mean it firstly –, “the apparent discrepancy”, “explain the reason for the apparent discrepancy” .... which exists, “apparent(ly)”, and has an obvious “reason” that should only be “explain(ed)” by ‘deducement’. In that way you do just the opposite of what you pretend to do. 1) ‘Especially John’s Gospel contradicts the other Gospel accounts’; this is where you start from. 2) the apparent discrepancy has a “reason for” it. 3) You pretend to “explain” both “by deduction”. And you presumed everybody is going to accept your word for it. Your methodology is not what should be explained; the chronology of the passover events must be explained.
Your conception of contradiction is most strange and novel.
The ages old pretence has been that John is the Gospel that contradicts the
Synoptists. You pose as though Mark “This
14th Chapter appears to be a contradiction”, of the other three Gospels,
especially that of John. You ask the
question, “Why?”; and you give your
reason why, “..... especially John’s
Gospel which parallels Christ’s crucifixion at the same time that the Passover
Lamb was being slain in the
I would like to point out, please,
1) Don’t the Gospels
of Matthew and Luke and especially Mark not also, ‘parallel Christ’s crucifixion at the same time that the Passover Lamb
was being slain in the
They – especially Mark’s Gospel – “with absolute fact”, do.
2) How do you, JV, ‘parallel’ “the time that the Passover Lamb was being slain in the
Therefore, Where is your pretended contradiction? The way you have imagined your contradiction, there exists none between any Gospels. You do not see the usual – traditional – ‘contradiction’ that can be seen by the most ordinary reader when he reads the most ordinary versions of the Gospels in specifically Mk14:12, Mt26:17 and Lk22:7,
Mt26:17, “Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread (having come)”;
Mk14:12, “And on the first day of Unleavened Bread when they always killed the Passover”;
Lk22:7, “Then came the day of unleavened bread when the passover must be killed”.
In my King James Version the words “day” and “feast” are inverted in Matthew, where they are supplied words. The idea of the “feast” as the sabbath of the Feast of Passover of Abib 15 is also retained in Mark and Luke through another supplied word, but which has not been inverted to indicate that it is a supplied word. That word, is “bread”, and since ‘bread’ is associated with the eating of unleavened bread, together with the eating of the passover sacrifice – that invariably occurred in the night part of the day after the day upon which “they always had to slay the passover sacrifice” –, the three Scriptures, by error, became associated with the feast sabbath of the passover or “high day sabbath” of it (Jn19:31). Remove the ideas of ‘feast’ and ‘bread’ from these Scriptures, because they do not exist in the text, and these Scriptures are describing the same day, that of the sacrifice of the sacrifice and of the removal or absence of leaven, also a duty that stringently had to be observed on the “first day” of passover, Abib 14. “Even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses.” Ex12:15.
No discrepancies; no contradictions left; no difficulty, no enigma to solve; just plain Old Testament law that in every respect and unto all its once for all fulfilment applied in the age, year, month, day and hour and week of the crucifixion and death of Jesus Christ— something worthy to be believed; something worthy unto the forgiveness of sins and the salvation of one’s soul. Something worth faithful scrutiny, analysis, interpretation, acknowledgment and acceptance.
JV:
“First of all, we have already established the fact that Christ rose on Sunday.”
GE:
What Bacchiocchian backgammon!
JV:
“We also have already
established the fact that according to His own words (which out weighs any
other witness) He was in the heart of the earth 3 days and 3 nights. So in
conclusion, we have already established the fact that Christ was crucified on
Thursday, before the Passover Meal took place throughout all
GE:
Which confirms, and which only can confirm, Christ’s resurrection on the Sabbath. If one can count to three and know the days of the week he can understand it.
JV:
“We can only deduce that the Lord requested to share the Passover meal with his disciples a day earlier, knowing that He would not be with them on the morrow. This Wednesday then was their own particular day of preparation...their singular evening of unleavened bread.”
GE:
I cannot understand how you cannot understand that what you have said before, contradicts and denies what you are now saying.
JV:
“..... We must always
keep in mind that Our Lord is also Lord of the Sabbath (Holy Day). Mark 2: 27,
28
Hezekiah himself recalculated the time of Passover due to unusual
circumstances. “and the thing pleased the king and all the congregation” 2
Chronicles 30:4 Our Lord and His
disciples were righteous; they were not legalists.
The disciples knew full well the malicious attempts of the chief priests,
scribes and elders, and they wouldn’t hesitate in the least to cooperate with a
more discreet seder.
This deduction is a fair estimate. For if Mark 14 is confusing, Mark 15 sets
the record straight.
GE:
Again you make an untrue assumption, then ‘by deduction’ – by false ‘deduction’ – apply your baseless assumption to the obvious truth – ‘Mark 15’ – as though that obvious truth ‘sets straight’ a crooked ‘record’ you in ‘Mark 14’ falsely presumed.
It is a pity you ended your disputation in this manner, JV. Nevertheless, thank you for the opportunity to have answered you; I benefited greatly, and thank you, and God, for it. I would have been the poorer in the knowledge and understanding of the Gospel of Christ but for our discussion.